Loved It? Hated It? What did you think of "Underneath?"

[Shelby Kent]

My LAUREL plant (honestly, I have one in my living room window!), who watches "Arrow" with me, would have loved to see the FERN in that scene where Oliver and Felicity are getting it on in the "Arrowcave". She ships her (because the FERN is a she) with Oliver's BOW, and she gets overtaken by FEELS every time they're in the vicinity of each other....their chemistry is simply electrifying!

Well, all my plants are dead. What can I say.
However, my blind cat (yes, true) does not care at all for the sound of Felicity's cry voice, or perhaps it's that he doesn't like hearing me rant and rave when I've been triggered by Felicity, lol. He of course prefers to listen to Daredevil episodes. Guess that makes him a Marvel guy

I think there is not enough plant representation in "Arrow" since Oliver left the island. I hope that the finale will introduce not only the whole family of the Fern but also some minor characters of different tropical genus.

No, I suspect no other plants will be allowed near Oliver. Only The Fern. Other plants might pose a threat to the Oliver-Fern relationship

I think that Felicity would be a perfect name for a fern (obviously) ...

In USA, in the South, in many areas, we have been overrun by kudzu. It is invasive and tenacious. It chokes and strangles everything it comes in contact with and you really can never seem to get rid of it. If you burn it, it will still come back, it will rise again. I think Olicity is a good name for kudzu. #KudzuIsRising

[Arrow_47]

This episode only has one saving grace: That Felicity actually and honestly apologizes for being a hypocrite and for crossing the line. The rest of it was 40 minutes of:

- Olicity fan service (there was no point in the sex scene or those flashbacks in general)
- OTA shoutout during the crucial save
- judgmental Felicity knowing better than Oliver (one scene at the end doesn't change what we saw for the rest of the episode)
- awkward Curtis lines
- more pointless Diggle/Lyla melodrama that culminates with them ending up where they were before.
- Tina conveniently knowing something because she worked undercover in a gang (I wonder how many times they will use that crutch to make up for her lack of development)
- retcons designed to make Oliver look bad and Felicity look good: (a) Felicity didn't ask him to join Helix - she did it behind his back! and (b) If she always backs his plays, why did she send the team to prevent him from freeing Diggle?
- the predictable outcome of Felicity (again) being the one who shows Oliver the light after he questions his own morality (again).
- and just an endless and tiresome droning of "You don't trust me", "I trust you" and "I am sorry" between Oliver/Felicity and Diggle/Lyla

Just because an episode ends with the right dynamic between Olicity and Diggle/Lyla, it doesn't erase the dross that came before it. This was season 4 at its finest. And this isn't coming from a comic book fan. Just someone who hates it when this becomes the Olicity show.

1.5/10 Gas leaking in the middle of this episode was so apropos.

This ^ 100%. With the addition that, like it or not, this is Oliver's quest as Arrow and they are supporting HIS mission. Know your role. Yes you are all equal as far as worth goes, but you do have different roles to play. There can be only one leader. You make your suggestion and the leader takes it under advisement; they are under no obligation to do it your way. If you don't want to play your part, then leave. Leadership 101.

[evaba]

That site is censored because you can't link to it here. PM if curious why.

Final ratings for "Underneath" are in:

http://www.greenarrowtv.com/arrow-underneath-overnight-ratings-report/

Seems like all that twitter trending frenzy did absolutely nothing for the ratings. Olicity may have risen, but the ratings/audience numbers remained low!

[Arrow_47]

It seems it's high time to catch up with the last two episodes. I decided to wait for 5x20 since it seemed they are a two parter with 5x19.

Silly me, I thought that we come to forum to have a discussion. I think there wouldn't be so much polarization in fandoms if people just comprehend that different people can see/focus on different things on the very same collage picture instead of constantly arguing that other people have to see something.

I would say, and I'm sure you agree (thus the tongue-in-cheek), that BKWurm is definitely opinionated, but I never perceived her as argumentative. Looking forward to her arguments!

[acer15]

Now next season should be season 1 and 2 felicity flashbacks. I also would not put it past the writers to have Felicity and Oliver open the season as eloping.

[evaba]

Well, all my plants are dead. What can I say.
However, my blind cat (yes, true) does not care at all for the sound of Felicity's cry voice, or perhaps it's that he doesn't like hearing me rant and rave when I've been triggered by Felicity, lol. He of course prefers to listen to Daredevil episodes. Guess that makes him a Marvel guy.

Matt does have a deep, soothing voice (not to speak of his dark eyes and sensual lips...le sigh....)

No, I suspect no other plants will be allowed near Oliver. Only The Fern. Other plants might pose a threat to the Oliver-Fern relationship.

Of course not! The Fernliver shippers will get pissy if any other plants get too much of his attention. LAURELs are especially odious to these folks, because they are so disrespectful and arrogant towards the FERN! They don't show her the respect she deserves as the Original ArrowCave Plant (#OAP).

In USA, in the South, in many areas, we have been overrun by kudzu. It is invasive and tenacious. It chokes and strangles everything it comes in contact with and you really can never seem to get rid of it. If you burn it, it will still come back, it will rise again. I think Olicity is a good name for kudzu. #KudzuIsRising

I saw what you did there!

[KSiteTV]

I think the episode had some conversations that needed to be made for a while now. I think it also helped explain why Oliver and Felicity have been the way they have been toward each other this year; cordial and peaceful, respectful but slightly distant.

I liked that there was actual danger involved. (The cliffhanger also had danger.)

I liked that they explained the costume change leading to Season 5.

What I didn't really find much use for was the flashback sex scene which only seemed to be there to pander to Tumblr. The show says they don't pander, but things like that, especially since it was hyped up so much, kind of says the opposite to me. There would've been ways to explain where Oliver and Felicity were at without flashback sex to the summer. (A time when, at least I thought Oliver was distant from EVERYONE, which got him to the dark place he was at in the beginning of Season 5)

[KSiteTV]

Now next season should be season 1 and 2 felicity flashbacks. I also would not put it past the writers to have Felicity and Oliver open the season as eloping.

Jokes aside, I would be beyond amused (and actually love it) if we had an episode randomly flashing back to when Felicity was working on that Walter Steele stuff, before she was part of Team Arrow. Revisiting Season 1 is kind of a "special place" and we still haven't seen too much of her from that period before she joined Team Arrow.

[Haggard01]

Alright one thing I'm wondering is has Felicity's apology at episode's end ultimately has come to late?

Based on some reactions by the fans, it got me thinking on wondering if Felcity apologizing simply is not really enough to even begin repairing the damage due to everything that has happened in seasons past.

[JDBentz]

I think whether her apology counts is dependent on how she is written moving forward. If they keep up the same style of writing they have this year, which is similar to Season 1/Season 2, then I can see her actually evolving from this and not remaining a static character. Its okay if she still does the quirky tech girl stuff, because we expect Diggle to be Ollie's brother-in-arms and confidant, Oliver to be the team leader who takes on burdens so his team doesn't have to even when he shouldn't, Lance to make dry one-liner quips about what's going on... that doesn't make them static characters. That's just part of their personality.

The problem I have personally had w/Felicity is it doesn't feel like she's truly moved on from the person she was in Season 1, and that is simply not possible after five years of fighting in morally gray areas, even if she was behind a computer for it. I seriously expected some differences in Season 3, but the writing changed (and I think it was more they were trying to copy the lighter tone of The Flash while maintaining the dark atmosphere of Arrow than anything else) and Felicity became static. In comparison, we did see some changes in her from Season 1 to Season 2. She became more confident in herself, enough that she joined Dig in the attempt to bring Oliver back to Starling. Would the Felicity from 1x03 have done that? Nope.

So, if after this heart-to-heart episode, which I actually agree was needed because of the various tensions that have been running through the team (and the need for the newbies to really have a team bonding moment), Felicity grows as a character, than as far as I'm concerned the apology isn't too little, too late. If I'm in the minority, so be it.

That being said, exemptions aside, did they really think promoting this episode as Olicity-centric would bring in the viewers? *sighs*

[costas22]

Pretty much everything I thought about it, as well. The episode was meh to me....moving on to the next one.

This ^ 100%. With the addition that, like it or not, this is Oliver's quest as Arrow and they are supporting HIS mission. Know your role. Yes you are all equal as far as worth goes, but you do have different roles to play. There can be only one leader. You make your suggestion and the leader takes it under advisement; they are under no obligation to do it your way. If you don't want to play your part, then leave. Leadership 101.

Don't usually do this, but thanks for being in agreement. To be honest, after reading my review and some of the others', I wondered if I was being being overly negative and the only one who thought this episode sucked so much.

Also, good point about Oliver being the leader. It's something that quite often is only the case on paper, with the likes of Felicity and Diggle frequently challenging his decisions. And what's even worse is that sometimes Oliver is written to make stupid decisions, just so Felicity or Diggle will shine when they call him out on them. Which kind of worked in the first couple of seasons, but we are 5 seasons into the show and Oliver is still not the hero and leader that he should be.

I need to tag 5x20 with #CarriverIsYetToRise and #DoctorPressnallIsNotBackAsOfYet.

Who knows? If you got a couple of more people to tweet them, MG might have paid attention. He loves widespread twitter hashtags.

I think the episode had some conversations that needed to be made for a while now. I think it also helped explain why Oliver and Felicity have been the way they have been toward each other this year; cordial and peaceful, respectful but slightly distant.

It's definitely fair to say that there was at least one conversation that needed to be made between Oliver and Felicity. The very last one. I just wish it was done much sooner and we didn't get (almost) a full episode dedicated to Oliver and Felicity's issues. Because they weren't that complicated to begin with. A lot of the bunker dialogue was just rehashed stuff.

But as far as John and Lyla are concerned, their entire mini arc felt like a rerun and I dare say even more pointless than the Olicity scenes. Their relationship over the years has gone from A to B to C to D and over the last couple of weeks it went back to B so that it will reach D again. It's always nice to see Audrie on the show and her chemistry with Ramsey is on point. But her character could so with some fresh ideas, IMO.

[Freawaru]

Before I am going to read your comment, my ideas on the episode: I enjoyed it. The plot was of a kind that I love: you have a situation and everything the heroes do actually makes it worse (for a while at least). Reminded me of some of my favorite eps in Stargate Atlantis.

As to the characters and their interactions - looks like the writers read our discussion about the last episode to address the points. Backwards in time of course, as the shooting was earlier.

Those revelations and character self-reflections were just about time. Felicity finally realizing her hypocrisy and apologizing to Oliver. Oliver in return telling Felicity about his self-revelation about enjoying to kill and his fears that this was contaminous. That Felicity would learn to enjoy it, too. That Oliver would one day loose control and killed everybody. And loved the Dlyla scenes - it was something Dig had to learn.

Only thing I missed regarding the points of our discussion was that we still don't know whether Felicity has researched into Helix before allying with them. But maybe another time.

Just a few questions: why didn't Oliver simply use some arrow to stabilize himself in the elevator? Same for Diggle: nice stunt and all but he could have used the rope instead of jumping to that old ladder. And: why doesn't Felicity have at least some rudimentary first aid knowledge? In case of loss of blood feet up, head down! The head suffers more from loss of blood than the legs.

Otherwise: good episode

[Amarice]

Well, all my plants are dead. What can I say.
However, my blind cat (yes, true) does not care at all for the sound of Felicity's cry voice, or perhaps it's that he doesn't like hearing me rant and rave when I've been triggered by Felicity, lol. He of course prefers to listen to Daredevil episodes. Guess that makes him a Marvel guy

What about cactuses? You don't have any? Or maybe you should try to grow OLIVER plant - it's almost indestructible.

No, I suspect no other plants will be allowed near Oliver. Only The Fern. Other plants might pose a threat to the Oliver-Fern relationship

I guess Sherwood Florist from 3x07 was nuked down together with Havenrock (so many plants around Oliver in that episode! And all of them shipping Carriver - ha, got you here! there is no plants in Nanda Parbat that could ship Olyssa, while Carrie had an army of green supporters).

In USA, in the South, in many areas, we have been overrun by kudzu. It is invasive and tenacious. It chokes and strangles everything it comes in contact with and you really can never seem to get rid of it. If you burn it, it will still come back, it will rise again. I think Olicity is a good name for kudzu. #KudzuIsRising

Kudzu sounds more like Organic Writing [tm] IMO.

Of course not! The Fernliver shippers will get pissy if any other plants get too much of his attention. LAURELs are especially odious to these folks, because they are so disrespectful and arrogant towards the FERN! They don't show her the respect she deserves as the Original ArrowCave Plant (#OAP).

Imagine that someone treats seriously all what have been talking about in this topic and in the result will start to destroy all dieffenbachias in vincinity.

Jokes aside, I would be beyond amused (and actually love it) if we had an episode randomly flashing back to when Felicity was working on that Walter Steele stuff, before she was part of Team Arrow. Revisiting Season 1 is kind of a "special place" and we still haven't seen too much of her from that period before she joined Team Arrow.

I would prefer not because we would probably learn by the power of redcon that Oliver fell in love with Felicity even before they've meet (they would probably create another pointless scene like the one is season 3 flashback episode).

Who knows? If you got a couple of more people to tweet them, MG might have paid attention. He loves widespread twitter hashtags.

I need 999 Twitter/Tumblr buddies to achieve my goal. So far ArrowWriters liked my tweet with #WildCupid picture. So if this pairing ever appears in the show it would be my fault. Poor Rene.

[Shelby Kent]

there is no plants in Nanda Parbat that could ship Olyssa, while Carrie had an army of green supporters).

ah, but who needs ship supporters when you already got the husband?
#Olyssa4EVAOTP! #OlyssaForTheWin #VictoryLaps

[Amarice]

ah, but who needs ship supporters when you already got the husband?
#Olyssa4EVAOTP! #OlyssaForTheWin #VictoryLaps

What means a mere signed paper compared to real feelings? #Carriver4EVA #CarriexOliver #AllPlantsInSherwoodFloristShipThis #DoctorPressnallWouldSayTheSame