View Poll Results: What did you think?

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  • 10 - Great

    3 25.00%
  • 9

    3 25.00%
  • 8

    1 8.33%
  • 7

    0 0%
  • 6

    0 0%
  • 5

    2 16.67%
  • 4

    1 8.33%
  • 3

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  • 2

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  • 1 - Bury it

    2 16.67%
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  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by evaba View Post
    Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, but even if you're able to fit a fanon ship into the story, you need more than chemistry and fandom support to make it work (like good writing and acting), because otherwise you can't win over the non-shipper crowd. Maybe that's partly what's been missing with Olicity, and which has turned so many fans against the whole idea of Oliver and Felicity being a romantic couple?
    I don't watch Arrow for the romance but I don't think it is necessary to leave it completely out of the story. Oliver Queen is supposed to flirt all around (as far as I know because the Smallville Oliver Queen was, too), but I prefer it if he does not have a new relationship every episode or even every season. I like relationships like Monroe/Rosalee in Grimm, Dax/Worf in STS9 and Samantha/O'Neill in Stargate was also great. They are there but they don't take too much away from the story but fit nicely into it.

    So what is the alternative to Olicity? I don't see any. I would not like it if he is completely solo because then Oliver Queen being Oliver Queen he would have a different date every episode. An new character? NOT AGAIN! (Sorry.) So who is there?

    That is why I simply hope for Olicity and better writing. In season one and two I liked Felicity and partly because she didn't seem to be into Oliver Queen just like every female in that world. Made her special. If the story would have been that they slowly started to be attracted to each other due to specific experiences and realizations I would have been okay with it. But as it turned out Felicty had a crush on Oliver all along and that really put me off. And then the Clana writing style full of "I want to but I can't" and "you lie and keep secrets". Seriously, where is the romance in that?

    But things are better this season - maybe it will be all well after all.

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    Well then he really wouldn't have to worry about losing control and killing his loved ones.
    I see what you mean

    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    I pretty much saw that as a threat against said loved ones, not a theme of the series. Oliver losing everyone he loves has not been the theme. He has suffered plenty of loss and really, him being afraid of losing all his loved ones wouldn't be unreasonable, but that hasn't been a reoccurring theme. It was on a show called Airwolf in the 1980's so I'm familiar with the signs.
    I love helicopters since that series . Still, I never saw that as a theme in it as the hero only connected to a few people anyway, and those people didn't die. Yes, he lost his parents, later his brother and in the first ep. his girlfriend. But that is just your typical start of a story or fairytale.

    As to it being a recurring theme in Arrow: season one flashback: he lost his father and Sara, then he connected to Yao Fei, lost him, then to Slade and Shado. Slade and Shado he lost in season two flashbacks and Sara again, too. Season three he connected again, this time to Maseo and his family, tried hard to protect Akkio, lost Akkio, lost Maseo. Season four he connected to Taiana (and maybe a bit to Waller), lost Taiana. Season five flashbacks he connected a bit to Taiana's mother, lost her. Only Anatoli is still alive. So of all the people he loved or considered friends and fought for during the five years "on the island" only Anatoly, Tatsu and maybe Waller were left. Remember that Oliver needs people to fight for - he only agreed to do what Waller wanted in season three flashbacks because she threatened Akkio and Thea.

    Then season one: he lost Tommy; season two his mother (and in a way Slade again) and so on... I do see a theme here. On the island in season three Slade told him that he had lost Thea, because she had lost herself. Oliver didn't believe it but a short time later Thea tried to make Nyssa kill her. Thea might still be alive but Oliver still has lost her.

    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    Yeah, we are going to have to just radically agree to disagree on most of that. Animals and humans are not the same. Hunting for food is not the same as liking killing. Someone can love to hunt and it's still not the same thing as when people say some one likes to kill. People that "like" to kill animals are the ones that grow up to be serial killers. Society knows to be freaked out by that behavior.
    That is just a matter of semantics. Nowadays "like killing" seems to refer to a psychopath, but do you know Worf and the Klingons? Don't tell me Worf does not enjoy killing. Or think of Slade: he clearly enjoyed himself when he killed but he was (pre-mirakuru) no psychopath: he didn't take his chance to leave the island so he could save Oliver - and later he ran into those bombs, got mortally wounded, all to save Oliver. He risked his life to destroy Fyre's weapon, that was meant to kill many innocents. Slade was no psychopath but he clearly enjoyed killing, both during fights as well as as an assassin.

    I am talking about the feeling, the emotion, the instinct. Whether you call it "liking" or something else.

    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    Yeah, we are going to have to
    And while humankind may have violent tendencies, all societies of man come with laws against murder, past and present. You say it's natural to want to kill. I say it's natural to find that abhorrent.
    Most actually only had and have laws against murder in their own society, regarding their own citizen. There never was a law against killing witches, heretics, and general non-believers in, say, the medieval age. There was no law against killing slaves in ancient Rome or in the USA some centuries ago. Thinking of killing humans in general as abhorrent is a very new concept.

    Don't get me wrong: I think killing humans as abhorrent, too, but that is because I was raised this way. Not because it is natural.

  3. #108
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    That is just a matter of semantics. Nowadays "like killing" seems to refer to a psychopath, but do you know Worf and the Klingons? Don't tell me Worf does not enjoy killing. Or think of Slade: he clearly enjoyed himself when he killed but he was (pre-mirakuru) no psychopath: he didn't take his chance to leave the island so he could save Oliver - and later he ran into those bombs, got mortally wounded, all to save Oliver. He risked his life to destroy Fyre's weapon, that was meant to kill many innocents. Slade was no psychopath but he clearly enjoyed killing, both during fights as well as as an assassin.

    I am talking about the feeling, the emotion, the instinct. Whether you call it "liking" or something else.
    It's difficult to judge whether Oliver "liked"/"like" killing or if he just deemed/deems it necessary, but it's no doubt that he did kill without much remorse or afterthought in season one (and that he since then has slipped back into this killer mindset every once in a while). Here is a video that gives a count of his season one killings. It says Stephen Amell kill count, but I don't think mild mannered SA is that murderous! It's the Oliver Queen/the Hood that is the killer, of course:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-ARZCQR3gg

    Now, if we add the season two kills (which are counted below) AND all the lives Oliver has taken in the last three seasons, the show's "hero" might be one of the most lethal men in the world.... especially since he doesn't annihilate a whole bunch of people in one stroke, but kills them one after the another over the course of several seasons:

    http://i.imgur.com/13F9Quz.jpg

    Now, in light of this, Felicity's line "You're not a killer" is something of an oxymoron...as illustrated by this compilation!

    http://i.imgur.com/5Jbq4GU.gifv

    P.S. It could of course be claimed that many of the men who ended up with an arrow planted in their chests were just severely wounded, but since 90% of these men were just red shirts/canon fodder, we'll never know whether they survived or not.
    Last edited by evaba; 05-12-2017 at 05:39 AM.

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    I don't buy the clashing culture's theory. He became a killer out of need and trauma and Waller tying to use him as a tool. It was never about culture.
    Not culture in the sense of American or Australian or Chinese. But Oliver started out as thinking of killing a bird is wrong, this is a cultural thinking, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    And apart from when he was pretending to be part of the LoA, he's never blended that well. He doesn't turn into a local or take up their dress or start thinking like them. At best he's good at languages. And with the Bratva, he was already in the same mental space as the Russian mobsters, they didn't make him over to their liking. He brought his already established sensibilities to the table. And even then he stuck out and didn't blend because he does things his own way.
    Remember how Taiana said "like a fish in water"? She thought that Oliver adapted to those guys who held her and her brother as slaves so well because he had been like that as a playboy. She was wrong. The Oliver who stranded on the island would not have been able to blend in. He would have not been able to do what he did as if it was second nature. Oliver adopted the Yao Fei/Slade/Shado culture - has nothing to do with Yao Fei and Shado being from China and Slade from Australia.

    Oliver easily entered the Bratva, too easily in fact. That is why Anatoly told him to leave at first. As you said: same mental space.


    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    And even at his worst with the Bratva, he's not killing innocents. The boundary that says killing is wrong is there whether he's in Russia or back in Starling. No culture clash.
    Yes, still Slade's culture. But it clashed with the culture of Laurel, Tommy, Lance and others. Remember how they called him a psychopath even though he did NOT kill innocents and even saved their lives?

    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    War though is always the big excuse that supposedly makes it alright to kill and in a big way
    Yes, and why do humans make that excuse? It is an excuse, right? Real reason: they like to kill.

    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    It's the senseless killing that goes hand and hand with "liking" to kill.
    I don't see it that way. Humans can like something instinct-wise but still have enough restrain by other means to not do it senselessly. For example: I like chocolate (sugar is one of those instinct foods as it provides energy fast). Does not mean that I eat it all the time or senselessly.

    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    Agree or disagree if Oliver's actions were right or just, but they were never petty or without the belief that he was saving lives.
    Agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    The show told us what happened with Wintergreen. He was given a choice between living or loyalty and he chose his own skin. Chances are he had never been put in that position before of almost certain death if he didnt' switch sides. So when push came to shove, he would rather betray a close friend than lose his life.
    While it is possible I doubt it. Because of Slade. Slade is and was not a person who trusts lightly. Lian Yu was not his and Wintergreen's first mission, they would have been in danger before. And Wintergreen must have proved loyal to Slade or Slade would not have been so unhinged by Wintergreen's betrayal.

    I suspect that Fyres had leverage just like he had with Yao Fei. If Yao Fei had not have this trick of faking Oliver's death he would have killed him to save his daughter.

    Also, consider, why didn't Fyres kill Slade? He had him as a prisoner for a year and he had no use for him. Why didn't make Fyres Wintergreen kill Slade to prove his new loyalty as he did with Yao Fei?

    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    When it comes to Maseo we don't know enough about him to know if we should have been surprised about his change in loyalties. He was working for Waller when we met him. Of his own free will.
    If I recall correctly he owed Waller. We never learned why but Tatsu mentioned it, hoping the debt would be paid soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    And it was his job to turn Oliver into a hit man. And he was just fine with that. The threat to his family only came when he wasn't able to control Oliver. So the good we saw in Maseo might have been the more aberrant behavior.
    But he, too, didn't kill his loved ones! Good or evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    Oliver's mom died and his instinct was to sacrifice himself to save others. Not to bring immense suffering to others. And then in the end, he found rather than killing Slade, he could be better than that. This is not the action of a man that wants to kill for the sake of killing.
    My interpretation is a bit different: His instincts told him to take revenge, but his compassion countered it and won. Humans are not run just by instincts.

    As to Slade, I still think Slade is special to Oliver, more like a family member. I don't think he hates Slade or even hated him after Slade killed his mother. After Shado's death Oliver almost wanted Slade to kill him. He certainly didn't fight his punishment. And if not for Sara and her fears that Slade would blame her for Shado's death Oliver would have told Slade, even if it meant Slade would kill him. In fact, I think Oliver expected Slade to kill him for betraying Shado because he killed Wintergreen. Remember that hallucination Oliver had in season two when Slade attacked him and they fought and then Slade held him just like he held Wintergreen right before killing him?

    Chase always says they had the same teacher as if this was somehow important. But Talia was not Oliver's main teacher. She might think so because of Yao Fei who was a student of Talia, but Slade was Oliver's main teacher.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by evaba View Post
    Now, if we add the season two kills (which are counted below) AND all the lives Oliver has taken in the last three seasons, the show's "hero" might be one of the most lethal men in the world.... especially since he doesn't annihilate a whole bunch of people in one stroke, but kills them one after the another over the course of several seasons:
    Thanks for the links. And, yes, Oliver is one of the most lethal men in the world. And he knows it. Does Felicity?

    Now, in light of this, Felicity's line "You're not a killer" is something of an oxymoron...as illustrated by this compilation!
    I wonder what exactly Felicity's definition of "killer" is?

    P.S. It could of course be claimed that many of the men who ended up with an arrow planted in their chests were just severely wounded, but since 90% of these men were just red shirts/canon fodder, we'll never know whether they survived or not.
    And let's not forget the men he clearly killed in Russia, Hongkong, Lian Yu, etc were humans, too.

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    I just don't feel that is an urgent concern of his. I just don't see the evidence of such feelings on the show.
    Whenever something goes wrong he vanishes: after Tommy's death to Lian Yu for example. Now and then the topic of "Oliver brings darkness to everybody around him" arises - in the first seasons it was a recurring theme of Quentin. He never disagreed with Quentin on this.

    Sure it does. And that's one of the things that proved to me that he's NOT a natural killer. No matter how easily he could kill now, he's not going to take it lightly. I fully believe he will never forget that feeling.
    Not taking it lightly is a different mental process than killer by instinct. Compassion for example can counteract that instict. But that instinct is still there.

    I think Alien Tech falls in a different category than what he'd faced before but even that he discerned was a sham pretty quickly. He has a mental toughness that he's been trained in as well as the physical prowess.
    So you agree that he is aware of the danger due to his training and experiences ?

    But I also think that he was what he'd become because of being shaped by Waller.
    Sure. But does Felicity know of all this? Does she really know how much influence Waller had on Oliver? If she does I don't see her behaving accordingly.

    The kind of trauma he was put in was a kind of brainwashing
    Similar mental process to a change of culture. The basic system of right/wrong is altered.

    and it took him a while to detox from that. But as up and down as the last five years have been, Oliver is healing and striving toward the light.
    And what is that light? The kind of right/wrong system Quentin had in season one? The one Felicity has right now? Or had? Remeber what she told Quentin rearding hacking: "a hobby". And still she does not consider hacking a danger, as we learned regarding Helix and freeing it's leader.

    Is that the moral system Oliver should strife for?

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    I just don't believe that anyone of them would have thought it was understandable to be lied to about a secret kid if they were about to marry him. Laurel wouldn't even get past that once her nose was being rubbed in his cheating (and with her friend - some friend) let alone that he was still lying to her. Sara would have kicked his ass. She has more self respect that to put up with that. There's no way Diggle would have been fine if say Lyla hid his kid from him. He'd be pissed. And Anatoly would call him an idiot.
    Yes, and they all would have thought it was typical Oliver (not typical Lyla for example).

    Actually, I recall that he and Thea had a good relationship before he went to the island.
    I recall it differently but I will check next time I watch.

    I think a lot has changed. His first year back not so much, but he was riddled with PTSD and all the other traumas he'd accumulated.
    I think we agree that the Oliver who came back to Starling City was in many ways a better man than before he left in the Queens Gambit. How does this agree with PTSD and other traumas?

    Example: typical symptom for PTSD is avoidance of everything that reminds one of the trauma (places, people, activities). Also, he clearly had no trouble continuing his dayly activities, or nightly ones at that. Does not look to me as if Oliver tried to avoid anything when he choose to take up his crusade.

    Only thing he avoided when coming back to Starling city was talking about it with people he belived wouldn't understand. He obviously had talked about some of it with Anatoly who could relate, and in season one he opened up a little bit to Diggle. But only so far as he thought they might understand.

    I am no expert but I don't see much PTSD in Oliver even in season one.
    And he did try to show up to learn his lesson and apologize to the recruits about once an episode.
    Actually he is apologizing to people all the time. Especially in season one. This is why I thought it so strage that Felicity pointed it out in this episode as if it was something he never does.

    The context of her knowing him is knowing what kind of man he is. Is he someone that kills for pleasure. Does he care about the mission or is it a front for killing. Why is he doing this?
    Most humans are complex. If you ask me Oliver does not kill for pleasure but he enjoys it when he does it. And that still freaks him out.

    How deeply does he love? How does he show respect? What's most important to him in life? What are his priorities? Felicity knows what kind of man he is.
    How does he show respect? Does she know how deeply he loved Slade and still killed him? Does she know about him killing Taiana? Does she know about him killing Wlad?

    But she knows he's a good man and she knows he didnt' build his mission in order to give him an excuse to kill for pleasure.
    I agree here.

  8. #113
    Settling In Kal El's Equal's Avatar
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    Looks like Olicity has given Arrow its lowest viewed episode ever

  9. #114
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    I think Chase compelling Oliver to blurt out that he killed because he "liked it" seems to be taking on a life all its own.

    Oliver may believe that this is the case, but I've never taken it to mean that his liking it applied to every single kill he's ever done. Some of his kills, especially in earlier seasons, were likely thrill-kills -- done for the immediate rush, bloodlust, call it what you will.

    And it's not even a case where Chase's physical torture forced it out of him, pain is something he can deal with -- it was the relentless psychological pounding he had gotten, not just from Chase but over the years in his journey, and Chase's calculated exploiting of it that pulled from him this "confession" (that he killed just for the thrill of it), a confession that wasn't entirely true. There are more than a few Hood/Arrow/GA kills that were situations where his hand was forced, or it was self-preservation, etc. "Liking" it had little or any factor in those kills, especially once he emerged out of his Hood era into a more "balanced" hero.

    Chase wants to convince him that he hasn't changed at all from the time when he was the Hood and Oliver was the mask/persona. Part of his scheme would be to persuade Oliver that in five years, he hasn't changed at all in his journey or even devolved into little more than a killer who could be unleashed by a hair-trigger aka a killing automaton who only puts on a facade of a more balanced person. Oliver is allegedly not that sort of man and hasn't been for at least 2+ years. The Hood side of him will never be erased, there will always be elements of that darkness in him no matter what he does ... so in this sense Chase is partly right in implying that it's a side of him that he can't simply pretend no longer exists within him.

    Oliver thinks Chase is on the money, which is incorrect (at least partially). Felicity was right in the sense that Oliver is not the monster Chase painted him out to be. The notion that Oliver the man has evolved beyond that of a morally ambiguous survivalist post-island who kills without remorse is a recurring theme that Diggle, Thea, Laurel etc. have also addressed at different times in the series.

    His choosing to add killing again to his toolset post-Darhk is not much of an issue for me -- Oliver was never the boy scout superhero in this universe, and arguably he was never meant to be or ever will be. No amount of retconning, headcanoning or Flash-influenced tone optimizing can erase the intentionally darker DNA that Oliver and the series was bred out of. This doesn't mean he has to remain completely "dark" in everything he does both as GA and as Oliver -- humans can and do evolve -- but what I'm suggesting is that this darkness in him will always be a part of him, but ideally it won't consume him. For Chase to be victorious, he had to convince Oliver that it has already consumed him.

    The muddled execution of this kill/no kill dilemma over the seasons is where I would have some issue with it. I feel it's an issue that needs to be put to bed by season's end (I didn't expect his S3 identity crisis to spawn sequels for the next two seasons!).

    I would say it is equally unrealistic to think Oliver will become a Superman-like or even Flash-like do-gooder with few blemishes and fewer regrets, as it would be to think that Oliver is still a cold and merciless vigilante who can never step away from the shadows. He is both neither and an amalgam of both.

    Maybe some fans don't like seeing Oliver occupy that grey morally relativistic area in the superhero spectrum. Grey is fine with me, in the context of his own universe, but obviously we want him to veer closer to the sort of hero whose moral compass isn't going to spin wildly whenever adversity raises its head.

    The series needs to settle on the parameters "where" his greyness as a hero now exists. (And, yes, it is frustrating whenever he still doesn't take lessons to heart ... esp. after five years.)

    Chase (and Anatoly in the flashbacks) is right in highlighting that the Hood persona doesn't make his sins become The Other and he just can distance himself from them -- they are still a part of him. But he is also wrong, as of S5, in thinking that those sins have consumed him to such a point that he's a mere killer, hasn't evolved at all and cannot be redeemed.

    So, Oliver confessing that he killed only because he likes it doesn't make it so. Chase wins if Oliver thinks the confession is truth instead of some shade of truth he blurted out under duress: a complicated half-truth that Chase beat out of his conscience.

    Felicity gets points in this ep. for reminding Oliver that he is not the monster Chase makes him out to be, but it's also a theme that didn't just drop out of the sky and originate in S5 either. Other team members at various points in the series have reminded him that he has become ... someone else ... after the island.

    Someone else "better" than the soulless killer he and Chase believe himself to be.

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    I sense some organic sarcasm in your post.
    You're organically right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freawaru View Post
    So what is the alternative to Olicity? I don't see any. I would not like it if he is completely solo because then Oliver Queen being Oliver Queen he would have a different date every episode. An new character? NOT AGAIN! (Sorry.) So who is there?
    Cupid of course. They both are crazy I mean - obssed over a goal, they both can shoot a bow and are good in hand to hand to combat. So they could save the city together. She would do everything for him, if he only asked. She was also ready to bear his children. So yeah, Carrie is a perfect candidate. So long liver #Carriver!



    (Crap, I really need to change this avatar after I've written so much pairing nonsense. )

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