View Poll Results: What did you think?

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  • 10 - Great

    3 25.00%
  • 9

    3 25.00%
  • 8

    1 8.33%
  • 7

    0 0%
  • 6

    0 0%
  • 5

    2 16.67%
  • 4

    1 8.33%
  • 3

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  • 2

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  • 1 - Bury it

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  1. #1
    The artist formerly known as "KryptonSite" KSiteTV's Avatar
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    Loved It? Hated It? What did you think of "Underneath?"

    What did you think?

  2. #2
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Now that is the Arrow that I love!

    Fantastic episode. Just the team and Lyla, working it all out together. I knew I was going to love the Oliver and Felicity stuff and Dyla, but I loved the B team as well as a fantastic OTA moment. Great stunt. I was genuinely worried for all three as they jumped and dangled.

    I'm going to go and bask in my happy feelings for a few days before I come back to argue with you guys. Looking forward to it!

  3. #3
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    Loved it. Amazing episode. I'm going to buy this one. Oliver and Felicity's relationship in 5A still doesn't make any real sense if that's where they were mid-summer and Felicity taking up with the cop makes even less sense, but I'll take it. Arrow is better when these two communicate.

    I'm glad they're not sticking Dinah and Diggle together too.

  4. #4
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    I actually enjoyed this episode a lot. Obviously, I save 10s for truly fantastic episodes, but this one was excellent enough to earn a 9 from me.

    And no, I'm not going to defend my position because someone wants to stew in their hatred of the show, especially if they don't even watch it. I'm done doing that here, on Reddit, and everywhere else. Living in the past and stewing on old hatreds are just as toxic as what people claim the Olicity fans do, and I'll have no part in it. I'll call anyone out on their BS now.

  5. #5
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Nice review @JDBentz.

    I loved the shot that showed what Diggle saw through the peep hole. The other well placed comedic moment I thought was when Felicity got the needle with adrenaline in it and Curtis is talking and trying to encourage her to use it and walk her through the steps when she just WHAM! stabs Oliver in the heart and he pops up, tosses her over his shoulder and off they go, lol.

  6. #6
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    Diggle must have popped some mirakuru pills because the dude was practically superhuman at the end. I fully expect that he should be wincing in pain whenever he moves his arm next episode.

    You know what, this ep. would be a case where all the fandom hand-wringing from all sides about what was going to unfold was blown out of proportion to what we actually saw on-screen.

    First, let's set aside the drunk Flashback Olicity bunker sex, which it basically was.

    Say what you will about S3's exotic 'you-think-those-Nanda-Parbat-incense-candles-may-be-hallucinogenic does-no-one-wonder-why-we're-doing-it-in-the-Lair-of-the-Demon?' horizontal hokey pokey -- it was still "hotter" than the retconned S4 sweaty 'impaired-dance-with-no-pants, you-think-we-might-get-a-staph-infection-on-this-gym-mat?' session we just witnessed. Not being serious here. [The high risk of staph infection on that gym mat though, I am serious about.]

    It is what it was: fan service.

    If you're looking to harp on Curtis for shipping Olicity, he provided the wine that set-up the whole thing. I guess he and Ra's have something in common now.

    Moving on, Felicity actually apologized. Twice. Once in the flashbacks and again in the current time. She mentioned that the issue of having children is something they needed to address and the William situation essentially forced the question into the open and that walking instead of talking wasn't the best move. She also acknowledged that her Helix acts could be perceived as hypocritical. And she did make a point that her Helix experience gave her a small taste of what Oliver has been going through re: doing everything and crossing lines etc. -- it's about as much as I expected from her Helix journey. It gave her some insight into him ... nothing more, nothing less.

    In the beginning, I thought they were just going to rehash what they did last ep -- both Olicity and Dyla in terms of trust. I had concerns they'd lionize Felicity at Oliver's expense again, and it certainly looked like it could go that way at first when they started bickering about getting in bed with the Bratva vs. getting in bed with Cayden James and Helix. It's a semantics game re: who is the "worse" criminal. Better, worse, less blood/more blood on their hands -- they're both criminals. Still a lot of unanswered questions about Cayden and I'm rolling with Lyla and ARGUS here until proven otherwise. I certainly don't see Helix as perfectly altruistic. It's also likely he and Helix may become a S6 antagonist (but probably not the Big Bad) and all this is also a bit of stage-setting for that.

    And as much hay was being made that it would be nothing but Olicity, and granted it was probably about 60-70% Olicity in this ep., there was plenty of Team Arrow 2.0 too. More than I expected.

    I actually had a higher threshold of expectations for Diggle this ep.: was he going to be man enough to admit he wasn't giving his own wife -- his wife -- the same level of consideration that he so freely gives to Oliver?

    Thank the gods he did, and he even admitted that Team Arrow's repetitive moral greyness over the years made it harder for him to see it for what it was aka dude, you do the same things ARGUS does, at times even worse. And he said he was sorry to Lyla too for not extending to her the level of trust/benefit of the doubt he willingly gives Oliver time and again. Yeah, homie, your wedding vows trump your bromance. #TeamLyla. Diggle and me are good again -- but he's on a short leash now in my books.

    Aww, how cute, Prometheus picked up William from school. Imagine all the bunker escapades were engineered just so Chase can be on time for that school bus? If little Billy gets to meet Auntie Talia, that would be awesome.

    If I'm going pass/fail, this ep gets a pass. They wrote Felicity a bit better, they made the effort to show some growth on her part, Oliver gets an apology from her(!) and ultimately it was a team effort, both newbies and the vets.

    Now that it's behind them, I'm expecting full throttle to the finale.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    Nice review @JDBentz.

    I loved the shot that showed what Diggle saw through the peep hole. The other well placed comedic moment I thought was when Felicity got the needle with adrenaline in it and Curtis is talking and trying to encourage her to use it and walk her through the steps when she just WHAM! stabs Oliver in the heart and he pops up, tosses her over his shoulder and off they go, lol.
    Those were great comedic moments, yes. *chuckles* I particularly enjoyed Dig's face when he was opening the door and those three kinda just leaned in like, "Is it safe to enter?"

  8. #8
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    President_Luthor: You pretty much captured the concerns I had about this episode, and the concerns on all sides of the fandom, in a nutshell.

    I think its safe to say that, at least for now, Marc and his team have taken their lessons from the backlash of Season 4 and applied it to their writing. According to MG on his Tumblr, they're going to continue the same style of writing from this season in Season 6, and I'm fully onboard with that. All I've wanted is for the storylines for the characters to make sense and they're doing exactly that.

  9. #9
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    Good review btw, JDBentz.

    I do feel Ep 19 and 20 needed to be seen as a two-parter and they largely got the job done here.

    I felt Diggle had to do right by Lyla in this ep., that box had to be checked in my books, so I was relieved that he did.

    Curtis is at his funniest in moments like these when they let him be and don't force it so much.

    The pluses outweigh the few negatives in this ep. Simply put, it was a good ep.

    I tend to be a moderate viewer -- neither an absolutist on comics canon nor a devout shipper. Just a regular viewer that wants to be entertained. (There are still people like us out there in TV land!) I'll probably choose to tune out the external white noise, spoilers, speculations, etc. as the finale approaches ... but I think short of botching the Prometheus arc endgame, S5 as a season may have a lock on the bronze medal at minimum and Chase himself claiming the crown for best Arrow series villain. He's running away with it at this point.

  10. #10
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    So lets be honest, this episode was the accumulation of Olicity in all its various forms and incarnations. As a fan of Arrow from the start, I accept that Olicity is a thing. I dont hate it, but I dont love it either. Back in season 4 I understood why Felcity called it off. It made sense to me. I actually thought the writing was pretty good. I just didnt care anymore. It came off as Felcity really giving Oliver a hard time, all the time and Oliver making extremely questionable decisions (of course he should have told Felicity about his son, especially after Malcolm new). It was all very frustrating to watch.

    Now this season Ive not minded how the writers have handled Oliver and Felcity. But I knew this episode was going to have the two of them alone, trapped, for an extended period of time. This episode had the potential to piss off every single faction of the fanbase. And with that in mind...

    This episode was actually pretty good. And parts of it were great. I will say I was worried at the beginning because Felcity was doing what she always does to Oliver. And I wanted none of it. But to my surprise and happiness, Oliver stood behiind his decision to Felcity. Which is something I find he has a difficult time doing. From that moment on the episode got better and better. And I absolutely loved the final scene with Felcity and Oliver.

    This episode was cleary designed to address last seasons nonsense and even though it was extremely transparent they were doing so, I thought they did an excellent job of it. The execution was on-point.

  11. #11
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
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    This episode only has one saving grace: That Felicity actually and honestly apologizes for being a hypocrite and for crossing the line. The rest of it was 40 minutes of:

    - Olicity fan service (there was no point in the sex scene or those flashbacks in general)
    - OTA shoutout during the crucial save
    - judgmental Felicity knowing better than Oliver (one scene at the end doesn't change what we saw for the rest of the episode)
    - awkward Curtis lines
    - more pointless Diggle/Lyla melodrama that culminates with them ending up where they were before.
    - Tina conveniently knowing something because she worked undercover in a gang (I wonder how many times they will use that crutch to make up for her lack of development)
    - retcons designed to make Oliver look bad and Felicity look good: (a) Felicity didn't ask him to join Helix - she did it behind his back! and (b) If she always backs his plays, why did she send the team to prevent him from freeing Diggle?
    - the predictable outcome of Felicity (again) being the one who shows Oliver the light after he questions his own morality (again).
    - and just an endless and tiresome droning of "You don't trust me", "I trust you" and "I am sorry" between Oliver/Felicity and Diggle/Lyla

    Just because an episode ends with the right dynamic between Olicity and Diggle/Lyla, it doesn't erase the dross that came before it. This was season 4 at its finest. And this isn't coming from a comic book fan. Just someone who hates it when this becomes the Olicity show.

    1.5/10 Gas leaking in the middle of this episode was so apropos.
    Last edited by costas22; 05-04-2017 at 04:18 AM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    This episode only has one saving grace: That Felicity actually and honestly apologizes for being a hypocrite and for crossing the line. The rest of it was 40 minutes of:

    - Olicity fan service (there was no point in the sex scene)
    - OTA shoutout during the crucial save
    - judgmental Felicity knowing better than Oliver (one scene at the end doesn't change what we saw for the rest of the episode)
    - awkward Curtis lines
    - more pointless Diggle/Lyla melodrama that culminates with them ending up where they were before.
    - Tina conveniently knowing something because she worked undercover in a gang (I wonder how many times they will use that crutch to make up for her lack of development))
    - retcons designed to make Oliver look bad and Felicity look good (Felicity didn't ask him to join Helix - she did it behind his back!)
    - the predictable outcome of Felicity (again) being the one who shows Oliver the light after he questions his own morality (again).
    - and just an endless and tiresome droning of "You don't trust me", "I trust you" and "I am sorry" between Oliver/Felicity and Diggle/Lyla

    Just because an episode ends with the right dynamic between Olicity and Diggle/Lyla, it doesn't erase the dross that came before it. This was season 4 at its finest. And this isn't coming from a comic book fan. Just someone who hates it when this becomes the Olicity show.

    1.5/10
    Seems like the IGN reviewer agrees with you! He gave the episode a 4.7 out of ten.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by 134sc View Post
    So lets be honest, this episode was the accumulation of Olicity in all its various forms and incarnations. As a fan of Arrow from the start, I accept that Olicity is a thing. I dont hate it, but I dont love it either. Back in season 4 I understood why Felcity called it off. It made sense to me. I actually thought the writing was pretty good. I just didnt care anymore. It came off as Felcity really giving Oliver a hard time, all the time and Oliver making extremely questionable decisions (of course he should have told Felicity about his son, especially after Malcolm new). It was all very frustrating to watch.

    Now this season Ive not minded how the writers have handled Oliver and Felcity. But I knew this episode was going to have the two of them alone, trapped, for an extended period of time. This episode had the potential to piss off every single faction of the fanbase. And with that in mind...

    This episode was actually pretty good. And parts of it were great. I will say I was worried at the beginning because Felcity was doing what she always does to Oliver. And I wanted none of it. But to my surprise and happiness, Oliver stood behiind his decision to Felcity. Which is something I find he has a difficult time doing. From that moment on the episode got better and better. And I absolutely loved the final scene with Felcity and Oliver.

    This episode was cleary designed to address last seasons nonsense and even though it was extremely transparent they were doing so, I thought they did an excellent job of it. The execution was on-point.
    Surprisingly, I agree with most of the things you say! I'm not a fan of the couple, and I still have problems with EBR's somewhat flat acting and monotone, oddly chopped delivery of her lines. However, in the last scene in the ARGUS sick room she did a good job. In fact, I haven't found Felicity this likeable in ages. So, even though I still think the pairing itself is forced and incompatible (and that Oliver would be more interesting with someone else), their interactions in this episode were at least mature and natural in a way that I haven't seen in earlier seasons. Of course, as @Costas pointed out, there were several retcons and misrepresentations of earlier Olicity interactions in this ep, but the "Arrow" writers do this so often (also with other characters) that I've kinda gotten used to it by now. Anyway, anyone who believes that Oliver and Felicity are over as a romantic couple is clearly mistaken (or indulging in wishful thinking!). If anything this ep laid the foundations for a full reconciliation and continuation of their romance in season six.

    It seems as though Curtis took over Diggle's Olicity Fanboy duties in this ep, with his all-too transparent dialogue with Felicity in the flashbacks, and the way he casually mentioned that bottle of wine! Speaking of Curtis, are you guys aware that he's GAY??? Sorry about the sarcasm, but every time Curtis tells another one of his lame jokes, or casually drops a line about his gayness, I want to throw something at my computer! And it's not because I'm a homophobe, but because Curtis must be one of the most lazily stereoptypical portrayals of gay men on television. It's a pity, because as a character he isn't any worse than Wild Dog, and the actor probably could do better if the writers didn't insist on giving him this crappy dialogue.

    Juliana Harkavy continues to impress me, and I hope that Dinah will get more prominence and individual storylines in season six.....and that the writers will dare to break their "no non-related female character except Felicity Smoak is allowed to get more than max five minutes of one-on-one/personal interaction with Oliver Queen per episode" rule for her sake. Juliana/Dinah has good chemistry with all the other characters, and I don't understand why the show's Black Canary shouldn't be able to develop a more close relationship with Oliver/Green Arrow, rather than being just another mask doing a few action scenes or delivering a piece of exposition.

    The over-arching theme of this episode is TRUST, I'm sure everyone was able to catch that! I didn't really understand why Felicity kept saying that Oliver doesn't trust her, because I haven't seen any signs that he doesn't. However, the explanation might be that he really doesn't trust anyone a 100% (which was revealed in a piece of dialogue, I think). And then we got Lyla and Diggle harping on TRUST as well in their interactions. It's nothing wrong with having a general theme, and I think trust is an issue that should be addressed, especially among people who are involved in dangerous and somewhat shady dealings, but sometimes I wish the "Arrow" writers could be a little more subtle!

    All in all, this episode turned out better than I expected (maybe because my expectations were so low!), and it addressed many of the bad writing sores that had been festering for so long, e.g. Felicity's behavior towards Oliver during the Baby Momma (Melo)drama. It also had some suspense and good action scenes, although we all knew that Oliver and Felicity would get out alive.

    Chase turning up in William's neighbourhood was a classic cliffhanger, and a good preparation for an episode that will hopefully deal with the season's Big Bad, now that so many Olicity/Dyla issues have been resolved.

    Finally, the Olicity flashback sex scene felt somewhat fan service-ish. Everyone who reads the producers'/actors' twitter or SA's FB page knows that Olicity fans have been more or less constantly complaining about the lack of a more personal interaction between Oliver and Felicity, as well as the lack of intimacy, ever since the start of the season. This felt a bit like a bone thrown their way, especially since it didn't have any impact on Oliver's and Felicity's present-day interaction/relationship. And of course the Oliciters got the OTA moment/stunt that they have also been clamoring for! Fortunately we didn't get any cringeworthy self-congratulatory toasts or OGGangsters references this time. And honestly, I only think it's the #OTA peeps who felt that this particular short scene was so special and significant, while the rest of the fans/viewers just thought they were watching an exciting stunt/action moment.
    Last edited by evaba; 05-04-2017 at 05:45 AM.

  14. #14
    Forum Whiz Amarice's Avatar
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    It seems it's high time to catch up with the last two episodes. I decided to wait for 5x20 since it seemed they are a two parter with 5x19.

    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    I'm going to go and bask in my happy feelings for a few days before I come back to argue with you guys. Looking forward to it!
    Silly me, I thought that we come to forum to have a discussion. I think there wouldn't be so much polarization in fandoms if people just comprehend that different people can see/focus on different things on the very same collage picture instead of constantly arguing that other people have to see something.

  15. #15
    Pirate King Backward Galaxy's Avatar
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    I enjoyed the episode more than I thought it was a good episode.

    I am totally perplexed by Diggle's stance on Lyla. I know he's worried about her becoming another Waller, but she doesn't owe him the truth or explanations. She has a job. He doesn't work for her. If anything, it's totally irresponsible of her to cave in to him at all. Putting aside the fact that he's an incredible hypocrite for everything he says to her, Lyla is entirely in the right and he's an idiot. Maybe it's all part of the "you don't trust me" and "I don't want you to end up like me" story angles they're taking with the show right now, but the vastness of his wrongness is so huge that it feels forced and it feels weak that she caves in to him even a little bit by showing him the audit.

    I get what they're trying to do with Oliver, but I question some of the dialogue choices they've made. Chase has made Oliver wonder if the good he's done as Arrow is being outweighed by the bad of his inner killer beginning to infect the team. The dialogue here could be stronger and I also think the parallels should go deeper than just Felicity and Helix, and I'm not sure it has to the level of success they seem to think they've achieved with the likes of Thea, for example. It's interesting, but the execution hasn't been perfect.

    Felicity getting drunk, sleeping with Oliver, and then immediately telling him it was a one time thing in the flashback cheesed me off something fierce. Tell him that before you sleep together so he can make an informed decision about whether or not he still wants to do it. It's nothing ten billion male protagonists haven't done in every tv show, movie, and book before, but they were wrong, too. It just felt like a really dirty thing to do to the poor guy.

    Someone really needs to teach Emily Bett Rickards that it's possible to deliver dramatic dialogue without pretending to choke back tears. To be fair, it feels like a CW thing. Someone just needs to tell them that women can be serious and emotional without being on the verge of tears.

    THAT ALL SAID, I still liked the episode. They handled the entrapment pretty well. I've also been very impressed with Stephen Amell the last couple of episodes. He's absolutely upped his game to a new level and is making much better acting choices, IMO. I also love the actor who plays Rene.

    Kudos also go to the stunt team on Oliver's fall. That looked absolutely BRUTAL.

    And Prometheus has been an excellent villain. That dude continues to be absolutely vicious.

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