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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    I won't go on about the absurdity of Team Arrow growing scruples about ARGUS secret prison deeds they themselves had done or were complicit in by letting them happen. Of all of them, Lyla is the only one who could say she was just doing her job. It's still bad in the civil liberties sense, but it's no secret to Team Arrow what ARGUS had done and is capable of doing. Their crocodile tears over it hold little weight.

    Moving on, how about Alena killing that ARGUS agent? Claiming it was an accident or miscalculation is a semantic Twister game she's playing -- it's still murder. It's first degree murder if she had intended all along to kill him. As for second degree murder that is: any intentional murder with malice aforethought, but is not premeditated or planned. She is likely guilty of one or the other. There's some intent involved when you're meddling with the functioning of an elevator -- a spontaneous "crime of passion" it ain't. And I'm guessing killing a federal agent comes with bonus charges as well. There's blood on her hands, and let's not forget she tried to kill Diggle when he was this close to catching her. If Lyla had seen how it played out like we did ... Alena would probably be dead already or with an int'l kill order hovering over her.

    Alena shouldn't be afraid of Team Arrow ... she should be afraid of Lyla. It would actually be worse for Alena if she left the continental U.S. and was caught elsewhere. Lyla could do some extraordinary rendition crap and who knows what ARGUS secret hellhole would await her then. She'd be lucky to only get Lian Yu.
    The part with the elevator made me cringe as well, because it seemed so absurd, like an odd mix of a teen-oriented Nickelodeon show and some dystopia about evil young women. I mean, the dark-haired Vicky Vale clone (because she looked lika a young Kim Basinger in that role!) didn't seem devastated (or even bothered) by the fact that she had mistakenly killed someone. And then we got the scene when the masked HELIX youngsters where firing away at the ARGUS personnel, which was IMHO also really odd....are these people cyber-anarchists or some killer squad? Of course, in the end we learned that they probably didn't use real bullets, and that nobody hence was killed...a plot detail whose only function seemed to be to ensure that no shadow would fall on Felicity, since she participated in the attack. If HELIX is supposed to be some evil cyberterrorist/anarchist organisation, I surely didn't get that vibe from the characters who were shown to be HELIX members.

    Maybe that's why I feel that the whole HELIX storyline was another missed opportunity when it comes to giving Felicity some complexity or character development. In fact, everybody acted and reacted just as they usually do when it comes to Felicity: Diggle adopted his usual role as Felicity cheerleader number one, Oliver was as apologetic as ever, and Felicity herself apparently had no real qualms about what she had done. And if online fandom reaction to Felicity's HELIX storyline is any indication of general viewer sentiments, this Special Snowflake treatment is detrimental to her character...because she is not perceived as brave, strong and resourceful, but as a Mary Sue character who can do no wrong and who seldom is forced to face the consequences of her actions.


    In fact, the writers came up with another IMHO ludicrous plot detail to justify Felicity's involvement with HELIX and even make it seem like a necessary evil. I mean, it was thanks to "the program that recognizes heart-beats all over the world" that the Team was finally able to track down Chase/Prometheus! So, this magical piece of software was just another plot element that was used to make Felicity's alleged "fall" or "crucible" seem pretty soft, along with her noble motive of wanting to take revenge for Oliver's torture/Billy's death, Diggle's praise, the non-lethal attack, and Oliver's seemingly inherent inability to recognize any faults in the Love of his Life....

    You might say that I'm biased (and I admit that I am), but I still think that IF the writers were serious about showing us Felicity's "dark side" and give her some kind of life lesson, they could have done a much better job than they did in "Dangerous Liasions". In this ep everyone more or less came out looking like a bit like a hypocrite (especially Diggle), and those fans who feel that Felicity is a textbook Mary Sue just got more fuel for their fire.

    Please note that I'm not saying that Felicity's motives weren't noble...I'm just saying that sometimes noble intentions can lead you astray and make you do things that from someone else's perspective (let's say Lyla's) are wrong, and put people in danger. Carrie in "Homeland" is an example of a heroine whose motives/intentions are almost always noble, but who often falls into the trap of using shady/reprehensible means to achieve them AND suffers the consequences of her actions. One example is when she slept with a young Afgani student to extract information, and later had to watch him being killed by his terrorist uncle. Another is when she more or less forced a doctor to revive Peter Quinn to get info about an impending attack, thus making him an invalid for life (and to make things even worse, he couldn't help her!). I know it's unfair to compare two shows and two characters/actresses which are so very far apart when it comes to the quality of the writing/acting, but I still think Carrie is a very good example of a character who is presented as incredibly intelligent, courageous and resourceful, but who is also allowed to have real flaws and make real mistakes....which are not rationalized away or swept under the mat and forgotten in the upcoming episodes/seasons.
    Last edited by evaba; 04-30-2017 at 03:40 AM.

  2. #47
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
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    Since I have nothing else to add to evaba's brilliant post about how Felicity's "dark storyline" was more of the same, I'll just point out that Guggenheim promoted this storyline as "something we've never done before on Arrow"...


  3. #48
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    Moving on, how about Alena killing that ARGUS agent? Claiming it was an accident or miscalculation is a semantic Twister game she's playing -- it's still murder. It's first degree murder if she had intended all along to kill him. As for second degree murder that is: any intentional murder with malice aforethought, but is not premeditated or planned. She is likely guilty of one or the other. There's some intent involved when you're meddling with the functioning of an elevator -- a spontaneous "crime of passion" it ain't. And I'm guessing killing a federal agent comes with bonus charges as well.
    Since Alena targeted the agent without any intent to kill and considered it an accident, I think she could get the charges bumped down to Manslaughter. But the only thing they have to tie her to the crime is hearsay and a line of code that looked familiar to Felicity, so not even sure of that sticking if they found her.


    Quote Originally Posted by evaba View Post
    The part with the elevator made me cringe as well, because it seemed so absurd, like an odd mix of a teen-oriented Nickelodeon show and some dystopia about evil young women. I mean, the dark-haired Vicky Vale clone (because she looked lika a young Kim Basinger in that role!) didn't seem devastated (or even bothered) by the fact that she had mistakenly killed someone. And then we got the scene when the masked HELIX youngsters where firing away at the ARGUS personnel, which was IMHO also really odd....are these people cyber-anarchists or some killer squad? Of course, in the end we learned that they probably didn't use real bullets, and that nobody hence was killed...a plot detail whose only function seemed to be to ensure that no shadow would fall on Felicity, since she participated in the attack. If HELIX is supposed to be some evil cyberterrorist/anarchist organisation, I surely didn't get that vibe from the characters who were shown to be HELIX members.

    Maybe that's why I feel that the whole HELIX storyline was another missed opportunity when it comes to giving Felicity some complexity or character development. In fact, everybody acted and reacted just as they usually do when it comes to Felicity: Diggle adopted his usual role as Felicity cheerleader number one, Oliver was as apologetic as ever, and Felicity herself apparently had no real qualms about what she had done. And if online fandom reaction to Felicity's HELIX storyline is any indication of general viewer sentiments, this Special Snowflake treatment is detrimental to her character...because she is not perceived as brave, strong and resourceful, but as a Mary Sue character who can do no wrong and who seldom is forced to face the consequences of her actions.


    In fact, the writers came up with another IMHO ludicrous plot detail to justify Felicity's involvement with HELIX and even make it seem like a necessary evil. I mean, it was thanks to "the program that recognizes heart-beats all over the world" that the Team was finally able to track down Chase/Prometheus! So, this magical piece of software was just another plot element that was used to make Felicity's alleged "fall" or "crucible" seem pretty soft, along with her noble motive of wanting to take revenge for Oliver's torture/Billy's death, Diggle's praise, the non-lethal attack, and Oliver's seemingly inherent inability to recognize any faults in the Love of his Life....

    You might say that I'm biased (and I admit that I am), but I still think that IF the writers were serious about showing us Felicity's "dark side" and give her some kind of life lesson, they could have done a much better job than they did in "Dangerous Liasions". In this ep everyone more or less came out looking like a bit like a hypocrite (especially Diggle), and those fans who feel that Felicity is a textbook Mary Sue just got more fuel for their fire.

    Please note that I'm not saying that Felicity's motives weren't noble...I'm just saying that sometimes noble intentions can lead you astray and make you do things that from someone else's perspective (let's say Lyla's) are wrong, and put people in danger. .
    Forgive me if this observation seems like I'm claiming to know how you watch the show but i can't help but feel like the problem is less what is happening on the show than that MG's teases about this arc built up expectations that the show didn't meet. MG called it Felicity's dark arc and that she would be grappling with crossing moral lines and doing things we hadn't seen Felicity do before and that she would come away with a better understanding of Oliver and his decisions. The thing is, all of that happened, just I feel not to the degree of some people's hopes.

    She's taken bigger risks, isolated herself, keeping things private, not sharing details, she's blackmailed using innocents as leverage, she's granted favors without knowing the ultimate consequences, agreed to work with someone that just killed a guy(accidentally), and decided freeing one potentially bad guy that could cause problems was worth it to stop one absolutely evil guy currently terrorizing Oliver and their city. And then the really big thing in this episode: Felicity sided against her team. Not just disagreed or didn't join in, but fought them directly and won.

    None of that has happened before.

    The idea that Felicity would ever go really dark or do something unforgivable was never part of the talking points. MG even clarified after his initial comments and explained that this was Felicity and they were going to go dark only by her standards, not relative to how far Oliver or even Diggle had gone. And they accomplished that.

    The episode from what I've seen in reviews has widely been praised for how the question of who's right and who's wrong isn't one that comes with any easy answers. I think only viewers looking to see Felicity brought low are the ones that view this in terms of Mary Sue writing instead of seeing it as a complex and nuanced conversation. Complexity is a good thing.

    And I can see the right and wrong on both sides. I can understand Oliver and Felicity's position. Lyla and Diggles. Even thought Felicity has forgiven Oliver for far worse (letting them think they are dying) I feel for Oliver when she said she hoped he would understand why she did everything once they got Chase and Oliver flatly said, not likely. I also get and sympathize with why Felicity was upset that Oliver didn't support her play even while I also get why Oliver felt he couldn't or shouldn't.

    Oliver in the episode wasn't even himself sure what was the "right" thing to do, he only knew that doing something at all costs comes with costs that he didn't want her to have to pay. She insisted anyway and pulled off her plan. She succeeded but that success still came at a cost, it's just that the cost is a piece of her innocence since the bargain she struck that freed Cayden James comes with as of yet unknown consequences. The cost was never supposed to be levied from the team. That's not the kind of price Oliver pays and this was Felicity following Oliver's example.

    One of the reviews observed that Oliver was upset that the man he feels he made (Chase when he went to extremes to save the city and ended up killing Chase's father) was the man that Felicity was now willing to stop at all costs. In the real twist of irony, Felicity and what she was now willing to risk/sacrifice, was also created by Oliver, inspired by his willingness to do what needed to be done, no matter the costs. Felicity isn't leaving this arc unscathed, it's just not the kind of price some viewers wanted exacted. And if one judged the arc by what we saw rather than the talking points that MG gave a few months ago, I think there is a lot more satisfaction to be had.

    But that's how I watch the show, based on what is happening, not what came from the comics or even from the show runners promises. [Edited to say this line comes off rather sanctimonious on reread - I was very tired when I typed this post. I just mean that what the show runners says in interviews could easily influence how one watches and judges a show and I work hard not to let it since so often what is on screen comes off better than their talking points] It's why I hated Susan. The show convinced me she was bad news. SA claiming from the start that Oliver is right to trust her didn't matter. The show didn't show was selling something else.
    Last edited by BkWurm1; 04-30-2017 at 10:26 PM.

  4. #49
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    @BWurm1, I used to follow (and sometimes intervene!) in your long exchanges with @Dagenspear concerning Laurel, when she was still a character whose actions had some impact on the overall story. My impression from your many posts on Laurel was that you tried to dissect her actions/behavior etc. in order to find out what bothered you so much about her character portrayal. I guess my recent posts have been an attempt to find out and explain what bothers ME about Felicity's character portrayal, past and present. We view her actions differently, and that's OK. I just want to clarify that to ME the HELIX storyline is just another example of the problematic way that Felicity has been written since at least season three, so it's not an isolated issue. Nor is it really related to the comics (where Felicity has no place whatsoever, apart from a short Kreisberg run) or the showrunners' recent promises or pronouncements.

    My general opinion is that Felicity started out as a rather one-dimensional side character, and that the writers have not managed to make her much more nuanced and interesting, despite the fact that she has been given ample screen time and storylines. I'm not saying that the overall writing for any character is stellar, but with Felicity I have the impression that the writers/TPTB have put her on a such a pedestal (especially in relation to Oliver) that it has been detrimental to her character AND to her standing within the non-Olicity fandom. I guess that's why I was disappointed that the HELIX storyline in my humble opinion didn't deliver what it promised, namely to make us see a different side of Felicity. To me Felicity has not really evolved as a character during the four years that she has had a major role on the show, and that is problematic in itself, since she was so shallow and (in my eyes) stereotypical to begin with.

    I (and a few other posters in this thread) have an opinion of Felicity and her role on the show that differs greatly from your own, and in this case, just as when it comes to Laurel, I'm afraid that we'll never see eye to eye. But then again, judgments of characters are always subjective, so that shouldn't be a problem.... at least on a forum that (despite what some overzealous tumblr bloggers claim) is always open to varying viewpoints on characters and story developments.
    Last edited by evaba; 05-01-2017 at 08:59 AM.

  5. #50
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    If I put on my 'devil's advocate' hat, I could see the POV of most of the people involved: Oliver, Felicity, Lyla, Diggle. There are various degrees of credibility and 'sale-ability' re: audience in making their POV convincing or not. And Lyla still comes out as the viewpoint that makes the most sense to me from where she stands. It was Diggle who I couldn't really fathom and whose POV is all over the map logically, and this in an episode where Felicity sided with Helix over Team Arrow.

    I can't see why he's all of sudden squeamish about some of ARGUS' off-book and murkier deeds -- when he himself has participated in more than a few of them (both as a freelance contractor or whatever status he occupied with them over the seasons, and within Team Arrow) and is married to the director of said agency.

    Whether he or Lyla is right or wrong, I don't see any scenario where Diggle doesn't end up in the doghouse after this debacle. I'm guessing we're supposed to infer there's been some marital strife brewing in OffscreenVille and the Helix incident exposed it -- but that's a lot of inferring they're expected us to do. Maybe they'll spell out that the Diggles haven't been in a happy place for some time, but until they do, it's hard to accept that it's been simmering when we haven't heard a peep about it until now.

    I don't like how it appears, that they're throwing Lyla's rep under the bus in order to make the rest of them look better. The reality is they all stink to some degree after this, no one's smelling like lavender after this episode.

  6. #51
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    Whether he or Lyla is right or wrong, I don't see any scenario where Diggle doesn't end up in the doghouse after this debacle. I'm guessing we're supposed to infer there's been some marital strife brewing in OffscreenVille and the Helix incident exposed it -- but that's a lot of inferring they're expected us to do. Maybe they'll spell out that the Diggles haven't been in a happy place for some time, but until they do, it's hard to accept that it's been simmering when we haven't heard a peep about it until now
    To be fair, they fought for similar reasons over ARGUS actions before. She even quit because of it. When she took over, it was with the understanding she wasn't going to do things like Waller, so I felt the conflict between them was organic even if the specific trigger of Dig's concerns was sketchy.

  7. #52
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    evaba;8175904]@BWurm1, I used to follow (and sometimes intervene!) in your long exchanges with @Dagenspear concerning Laurel, when she was still a character whose actions had some impact on the overall story. My impression from your many posts on Laurel was that you tried to dissect her actions/behavior etc. in order to find out what bothered you so much about her character portrayal. I guess my recent posts have been an attempt to find out and explain what bothers ME about Felicity's character portrayal, past and present.


    We view her actions differently, and that's OK. I just want to clarify that to ME the HELIX storyline is just another example of the problematic way that Felicity has been written since at least season three, so it's not an isolated issue. Nor is it really related to the comics (where Felicity has no place whatsoever, apart from a short Kreisberg run) or the showrunners' recent promises or pronouncements. My general opinion is that Felicity is a stereotypical, one-dimensional, poorly written (and sometimes poorly acted) secondary character, who is over-exposed by the "Arrow" writers, and over-rated by her own fandom.

    Given your own detailed and extensive critiques concerning the many flaws in Laurel's writing I cannot imagine that you would deny another Ksite member the rights to express his/her complaints when it comes to Felicity's character portrayal...unless you believe that Felicity Smoak is indeed a Special Unicorn, who is somehow exempt from fandom criticism.
    I guess I misconstrued your intent. Since it was in the episode thread I assumed you were trying to break down your reaction to Felicity in the episode specifically and it seemed that you were recognizing what the episode was accomplishing while also not being happy that it wasn't matching up with what MG had initially implied. That was the disconnect that I was trying to address.

    I (and a few other posters in this thread) have an opinion of Felicity and her role on the show that differs greatly from your own, and in this case, just as when it comes to Laurel, I'm afraid that we'll never see eye to eye. But then again, judgments of characters are always subjective, so that shouldn't be a problem.... at least on a forum that (despite what some overzealous tumblr bloggers claim) is always open to varying viewpoints on characters and story developments.
    My attempt wasn't to ultimately change your opinion but checking on what basis it was being formed and if the expectations misrepresented by MG were removed from the equation, if then you might have graded the episode and Felicity on a different curve since your own words (which I bolded in my previous reply) seemed to support and recognize the same things I saw in the episode that I thought were Felicity positive.

    Now that I know your real intent, I will leave you to your opinions.

  8. #53
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    As you may hace noticed I edited some of my comments, because I realized that they were too confrontational, especially since you are always a courteous poster. Anyway, I guess i haven't commented much on Felicity's general character portrayal this season since she hasn't been as prominent as in earlier seasons and since her relationship with Oliver hasn't dominated the narrative the way it did in season four. Maybe that's why it seemed as though my comments pertained only to the latest episode.

    As for the most recent ep I don't agree with the reviewers you refer to. To me both Felicity's HELIX storyline and the Lyla/Diggle confrontation seemed staged and forced, and I didn't get the sense of that Felicity's storyline brought her to a turning point where she could better understand where Oliver is coming from. In fact, her last words about him not backing her reminded me of "Felicity talking to Oliver in an angry voice while he sadly/apologetically stands by and listens" scene that we've seen several times before, especially in season four. In general I don't understand why the writers would endeavor to give Felicity these more "dark" or "heavy" storylines, when she still keeps coming out of them smelling more or less like a rose because nobody really blames her for anything, and she doesn't critique herself either (as opposed to Oliver's constant self-flagellation). When the most common description of Felicity (especially after this ep) in the non-oliciter fandom is Mary Sue, the writers clearly didn't achieve what they were aiming at. If I were a fan of hers, I'd say that they are doing her a disservice. And I'm not claiming that the description is fair or appropriate....I'm just saying that it's widely used when discussing Felicity's character portrayal.

    I've already ranted about the IMHO childish and almost parodical way that HELIX was presented (including the attack on the ARGUS facility), and as many fan reviewers have noted Diggle's indignation seemed pretty hypocritical, considering some of the things he/TA has done. And I do think that the more heavy/dramatic scenes and storylines like the HELIX one puts a burden on EBR that she IMHO simply cannot carry very well. So, so me this was not a well-done episode from the POV of narrative content/message, although it did have some suspense and although Lyla's presence is always a bonus. In general it just seemed like another "Arrow" drama-for-drama's sake storyline.
    Last edited by evaba; 05-01-2017 at 07:55 AM.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    To be fair, they fought for similar reasons over ARGUS actions before. She even quit because of it. When she took over, it was with the understanding she wasn't going to do things like Waller, so I felt the conflict between them was organic even if the specific trigger of Dig's concerns was sketchy.
    This!

    Also, it seems to me that Diggle has done some thinking about his moral or not so moral actions. He did so after Afghanistan - talked to Felicity about it in season one - and he must have done it after he killed his brother. It seems to me he came to a new morality he could live with that governs his present, but not past, actions. He just didn't realize that his wife does not know or agrees to it without discussion. Just because one person has a new moral compass does not mean everybody else has.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by evaba View Post
    In general I don't understand why the writers would endeavor to give Felicity these more "dark" or "heavy" storylines, when she still keeps coming out of them smelling more or less like a rose because nobody really blames her for anything, and she doesn't critique herself either (as opposed to Oliver's constant self-flagellation).
    This seems to me one of the points that many, including me, find troubling about Felicity. I recall similar problems with both Lana (Smallville) and Kira (Deep Space Nine). Both Lana and Kira were written as wrong about many things, but the other characters in the show never acknowledged it. Kira at times was reflecting on herself, but it had not that much influence on her character afterwards. Lana on the other hand was portrayed as quite the opposite as the other characters in the show considered her and very insecure - it didn't seem to sit well with the audience, too, but I didn't mind.

    I liked Felicity in season one and two and I never thought of her as one-dimensional. But she had then and still has this general attitude of considering herself as never wrong (Detective Lance:"What do you call hacking?" Felicity:"A hobby."). Felicity's morals were shady from the beginning, one of the reasons Oliver chose her after all.

    Now she accused Alena of killing, but when Alena didn't think much of it Felicity never showed that she trusted her less as Oliver would have done. Oliver does bad things in the heat of the moment, but when he is cold and rational again he questions himself. Felicity does not seem to do that, she just keeps going without wavering from her path. Personally, I think of this as her character trait, that even with all her intelligence she lacks wisdom because she does not really confronts her own morals or choices (just like Kira, btw). But for me that is okay, I don't need Felicity to be another Oliver whom I appreciate exactly for this self-doubting. She is a different person than Oliver and with all her good and bad and quirks she makes an interesting character to watch in a TV show.

  11. #56
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Now she accused Alena of killing, but when Alena didn't think much of it Felicity never showed that she trusted her less as Oliver would have done.
    To be fair, Alena interrupted her as Felicity was haranguing her for killing the agent and laid out the only way Felicity was going to get Chase was by helping Helix even more by breaking out Cayden James. We don't know if their working relationship would have even continued if not for Chase being top priority.

    Felicity did believe that Alena didn't mean to kill the Agent and based on Alena's subsequent actions, (hiring people that knew what they were doing, using rubber bullets) I believe that too (even as I believe Alena will eventually not be bothered if she doesn't "accidentally" kill the next victim) But I do think that was part of the cost Felicity had calculated. She was working with people that under other circumstances she may not have continued to trust. But they were the only guaranteed path to Chase so she "sold her soul" per Oliver and forgave Alena and backed her up. Lack of dithering IMO doesn't mean she didn't understand the morally questionable part of what she was doing. It's just that she was willing to bear that burden. She said as much.

  12. #57
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    Felicity has now become as irritating, patronising and worthless as Chloe Sullivan did in Smallville - the show could easily replace her with Curtis or Layla.

    There is no way in hell should Oliver allow her back onto the team after her going up against him, and he should tear her a new one and kick her off the team, as this is at least the second time she's gone against him! But then again, Oliver is, after all, Felicity's puppy to be kicked about so I won't hold my breath.

  13. #58
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    =Kal El's Equal;8175942]
    Felicity has now become as irritating, patronising and worthless as Chloe Sullivan did in Smallville - the show could easily replace her with Curtis or Layla.
    Yeah, Chloe Sullivan was IMO the biggest hero on that show next to Clark. Clark rescued her but she saved his life just as much not to mention pulled the JL back together, shaped them up and saved all their butts at the sacrifice of herself again and again. Comparing Felicity to Chloe is only going to make me more proud of my girl.

    There is no way in hell should Oliver allow her back onto the team after her going up against him, and he should tear her a new one and kick her off the team, as this is at least the second time she's gone against him! But then again, Oliver is, after all, Felicity's puppy to be kicked about so I won't hold my breath.
    Just two episodes ago Oliver turned his back on the whole team and backed the Bratva against them. And yet they were willing to let him back on the team. Toward the end of season three he aligned himself with Malcolm Merlyn rather than his team, to the point of letting them think he was sending them all to their deaths and yet they forgave him and welcomed him back.

    Oliver isn't Felicity's boss. She's not his employee. She's his partner. Oliver himself keeps stressing this.

    And she's kept the team running while he's left to do his own thing more times than the opposite.

    I wish I was more surprised by the obvious double standard.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    So the big payoff to Felicity's "dark" storyline was:
    (a) Throwing Lyla under the bus as the real character who's crossing the line.
    (b) Felicity is ultimately glorified in her decision to work with Helix (even though Alena murdered someone) because they helped out with Chase.
    (c) Felicity isn't arrested for working with an illegal group of hackers.
    (d) No one truly calls out Felicity on her actions and Oliver even ends up apologizing.

    Pathetic. And speaking of, Diggle is something else, isn't he? During the last episode, he roasted Oliver for getting in bed with the Bratva and here he lets Felicity off the hook for working with hackers who are threatening national security. And since when does Diggle care about ARGUS's black sites, anyway? He didn't seem to mind when they imprisoned Slade, Captain Boomerang and Black Siren in them.

    On the other hand, I have to be fair with this episode and commend it for its humor. Especially the parts where Felicity told Oliver that she loved him because he was willing to do the right thing no matter what (is that why she busted his chops about not killing?), where she accused him of lying (in an episode where she did the same) or where she accused him of not backing her play like she always does (except all the times she didn't!) had me in stitches. I love the air of hypocrisy in her scenes.

    2/10. Not because it was a badly directed episode. But because yet again, this show refuses to remove Felicity's halo, no matter how many characters are made to look bad just to prop her up. The only reason it doesn't get 1/10 is because I liked Rene's scenes with Quentin. I wish this episode is where this season fell off the cliff, but there's also next week...
    Here is a good description of how Felicity could have acted towards Oliver in this episode, a version that might have prompted less severe critiques from the non-oliciter fandom:

    Wasn’t the whole point of this episode that Felicity was finally going to be able to “understand” Oliver? That was why the writers had her go on this whole arc? In that case, it should have been her apologizing to him.

    Something like:
    “Oliver, I’m sorry. All this time I’ve criticized you and left you when you’ve made decisions I haven’t been okay with. But losing Billy made me realize it’s a slippery slope, and sometimes doing what I thought was right for him made me do things that weren’t right for other people. Especially you and the team. I always got so mad when you would shut us out, but I never stopped to think that I was doing the same thing. And I don’t want to do that anymore. Will you help me?”


    That would be a positive development in her character—but pffft, development. What would Felicity ever need that for? She’s absolutely perfect the way she is, always has been!


    Instead, contrary to what Marc promised, the onus has been placed on Oliver to understand Felicity in this episode, to be apologetic and forgiving of the extremely questionable decisions she has made these past episodes. It’s completely the opposite of what needs to happen for the show to move forward. For a season finale that’s supposed to be all about Oliver coming to terms with everything that’s happened and then forging a new way, Arrow’s writers seem to be determined to repeat past mistakes, especially in regards to their favorite character and ship.
    Last edited by evaba; 05-01-2017 at 04:44 PM.

  15. #60
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Before I say anything, I need to say how much I dislike responding to some post made by some anon person rather than material or opinions generated from people on this board. The person that wrote this will never have the chance to respond or clarify or explain anything. That seems wrong to me. But I'm guess I'll view this as if it was what you wrote it since you are using it to express your opinion?

    Wasn’t the whole point of this episode that Felicity was finally going to be able to “understand” Oliver? That was why the writers had her go on this whole arc? In that case, it should have been her apologizing to him.
    Right here I find the premise invalid. MG never said the whole point of the episode was so Felicity could understand Oliver. Nor did they say that that was the point of the whole dark arc. It was to be one of the outcomes and given that 520 will have Oliver and Felicity addressing and hashing through their issues, it's really premature to decide nothing has come out of this arc.

    But also, I think it is a big mistake to base all hopes and expectation on the producers vague talking points. What ends up on screen may only bare the slightest resemblance. MG mentioned Felicity gaining a deeper understanding of Oliver but they also said it was going to be about getting justice for Billy and MG promised this arc as something that had nothing to do with Oliver. Instead the reason she got involved with Pandora/Helix was about freeing Diggle, she hasn't mentioned Billy since 510, only Dig even brought up that she might still be grieving now, the specific motivation for joining Helix was so she could provide even better back up for Oliver and her whole reason for doing this exchange for Chase was based around stuff about Oliver.

    I personally think she does have a better understanding of Oliver and the burden of making morally questionable choices and rather that ask forgiveness for doing it, she wants to help him not carry the burden alone.

    Something like:“Oliver, I’m sorry. All this time I’ve criticized you and left you when you’ve made decisions I haven’t been okay with. But losing Billy made me realize it’s a slippery slope, and sometimes doing what I thought was right for him made me do things that weren’t right for other people. Especially you and the team. I always got so mad when you would shut us out, but I never stopped to think that I was doing the same thing. And I don’t want to do that anymore. Will you help me?”
    In the context of what was on screen, this makes no sense. She's more sure than ever that sometimes you have to make the hard choices. And it's not about shutting the team out. She wanted them involved in the op. Oliver and Dig shut that down. They are all entitled to their own opinions. Why should she apologize for not agreeing with them when she doesn't and even Oliver isn't sure she's wrong? How is forcing her to be in the wrong when that's not what the show sold good character growth??

    Now that doesn't mean that there isn't room for growth or understanding still to come. I still need to understand why Oliver couldn't support her. What he says will be important for her to understand him and hopefully she'll be able to see that she was being reckless as well, even if the trust she placed in Helix hasn't yet been unfounded.

    That would be a positive development in her character—but pffft, development. What would Felicity ever need that for? She’s absolutely perfect the way she is, always has been!
    Felicity isn't the same character that she was in the first season. She's more confident and bold. In season one, she was just the teams IT expert. By mid season two she was a partner. By season three, the team was going to exist with or without Oliver. Now in season five , the team remains important but we see that if she didn't have the team, she'd still be out there helping to save the world on her own, doing what she thinks is right. The growth and changes between the rambling, nervous kind of star struck girl hiding her power in the IT department and the one that faced down Argus and Team Arrow and won is stark.

    That's part of what made the regression to using her only as comic relief in some of the episodes earlier this season so painful and forced. Felicity has had oodles of growth and change, but apparently it's not what you want to see or the way you wanted to see it. And that's an opinion you remain entitled to, but she hasn't remained static, that's for certain.

    Instead, contrary to what Marc promised, the onus has been placed on Oliver to understand Felicity in this episode, to be apologetic and forgiving of the extremely questionable decisions she has made these past episodes.
    I come back to the problem of considering MG's comments promises, especially since they were so widely open for interpretation. I get the impression that some feel he promised to humble Felicity and knock her down. I never got that impression so if that's what I got, I'd feel like the one tricked.

    And if one didn't walk into these episodes ahead of time sold on Helix being something really terrible, would what has been shown really support that conclusion? It's grey at best. Felicity hasn't had a bunch of extremely questionable choices. At most, she's had a few questionable ones, but the key word is question. So far nothing she did or delivered to Helix has been PROVEN bad. There is potential for misuse and abuse. Yes, absolutely, but every time she's made those compromises, it's been for good reasons and the hero of the show may be really worried about those compromises and what may come of them, but I think he's made clear that he'd have found them acceptable for himself. Just not her.

    I feel like those that want Felicity to apologize and beg him for help want to see her decide she's not up to making her own choices or living with the consequences. I think Oliver does need to be the one talking and explaining because while I do understand that he has good reasons for not wanting her to follow in his footsteps (even the Felicity lite version of such) but she's following the example he's set, so to judge her as wildly in the wrong feel s extremely hypocritical. Oliver is the one that needs to explain his position. And then yes, Felicity still can come to understand that she's not making her choices in a vacuum and that some of her many recent traumas might be compromising her judgment and that she can and should look to her teammates at those times. Of course, before she'd do that, she has to trust Oliver again, in that capacity beyond just as fellow vigilante.

    For a season finale that’s supposed to be all about Oliver coming to terms with everything that’s happened and then forging a new way, Arrow’s writers seem to be determined to repeat past mistakes, especially in regards to their favorite character and ship.
    It's not just Oliver that has to come to terms with the past. How has his legacy shaped those around him? That is the question they are addressing right now with Felicity.

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