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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward Galaxy View Post
    This was a really solid episode as long as you forget that Team Arrow knows Team Flash has a prison in their basement where criminals are routinely locked away without due process.
    The funny thing is that Lex did the same in Smallville for same reasons but everybody (especially Clark) blamed him for it. Wonder what would happen if SV Clark met Flarrowverse Flash.

  2. #32
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
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    To be fair, Team Arrow has done its fair share of illegal imprisonments as well. Nyssa in season 3, Andy in season 4, Black Siren this season...

    Quote Originally Posted by Freawaru View Post
    I think this is just because Lyla knows Felicity and does not judge her as a threat. If it had been Waller things would have been different.
    It's not so much about Felicity being a threat or not. She did something illegal and it's Lyla's responsibility to take action against her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freawaru View Post
    I guess he was apologetic because he still believes that it is dues to his influence that the people he loves suffer. That was his idea since season one: that he is responsible for everything, if something goes wrong, if someone dies - it is all his fault. That psycho session with Chase certainly didn't help so far.
    And in a nutshell, that's exactly why I dislike the direction this season has taken ever since 5.17. Instead of Oliver being the moral compass of the show, once again he's the opposite.

    Although, we have to keep in mind that even when Oliver wasn't beating himself up over something, he couldn't bring himself to judge Felicity about anything. The theme of this relationship has always been "Only Oliver is at fault".

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrow_47 View Post
    Hands down worst episode of the series. MG and Co. really need to stop peddling their politics and try their hand at good storytelling. The dialogue in this particular episode was so deliberate in its' messaging that it lacked any emotion and fell completely flat. What a disappointment. I sure hope there's a big payoff in the end for the faithful followers of this show.
    Completely disagree. I could name 10 episodes from last season that are significantly worse

  4. #34
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 134sc View Post
    I enjoyed the episode. I thought the writers showed how all sides were both right and wrong depending on your perspective and bias. Interesting that it kind of represents how the internet fanbase feels about the episode. If you hate Felicity you can find reasons that support your hate. Same goes for those who love her. As a neutral observer I just thought it was well written. Felicity and Oliver had some adult conversations (no melodrama, thank god) and it looks like it will carry over into next episode
    I would say this was the intent of the ep and I've read a few reviews out there that also mentioned the idea of moral relativism from all parties, where we could say that person x or y was in the right, while from another POV x or y was in the wrong. And the ep does reflect this to some degree, and how fans of various stripes would perceive it.

    Is Lyla right in carrying out her duty as a director of an agency charged with protecting the nation and choosing to look out for national interests over those of a single city? One could argue: yes she is. Is she wrong in accepting incarceration without trial, effectively trampling on the constitution her job by definition is supposed to defend? Again, you could argue: yes.

    Is Felicity right in doing everything possible to hunt down Chase, even if it involved getting in bed with a group who hasn't really earned the level of trust being extended to them and whose own endgame is unclear? One could still argue: yes. Is Felicity wrong in assuming that taking another team's side, effectively putting you in opposition to your original team, isn't a conflict of interest at best and traitorous at worst? One could also argue yes to this.

    With Felicity, and Oliver and Diggle's role in the whole snafu there is also some moral relativity in play too. Oliver and Diggle, likely more than anyone, know how intoxicating it can be to push the envelope in order to achieve a mission goal -- and the price it can and will take on you if you keep doing it. So their effective shrugging off of Felicity's more and more frequent dalliances with Helix over the past few weeks gives the impression they either are naive/stupid enough to think she won't be affected the way they've been or they condone the idea that ends justify the means is okay whenever it involves Prometheus. It seems like a bit of both. In this sense, they didn't stamp out the fuse when they clearly had the experience to see what could come of it.

    In contrast, Felicity has seen the price both men have paid in pushing the envelope into morally ambiguous territory -- so it is also hard to reconcile that she just found herself in over her head with Helix thinking she could manage the envelope-pushing without any cost. Oliver and Diggle may have been enablers, but as individuals we must own our own choices too -- and their consequences. So she doesn't come out of this smelling that much better too.

    On paper, this was the idea they had hoped to convey. But once you throw in the Olicity baggage and all the times Ollie and friends have done what they are now (after five years!) frowning about re: ARGUS, this is where the execution of it fumbles a bit. Depending on where you land, it either makes your favourite character look less than admirable or shows why a character is disliked or hypocritical.

    Diggle came out of this the worst to me, as he defaults to Olicity spear-carrier mode when he would have had every right to play bad cop and call Felicity to account. He'd have the moral high ground too, as he did more than anyone to keep the team together when it was about to fold. Plus he apparently disregards Lyla's POV to boot. Odd too, since only last season he had incarcerated and even tortured his brother -- no lawyer, no trial -- and ended up fulfilling the executioner's role too. While the usual Felicity pedestal-stacking by Diggle (and Oliver's neutered response whenever she crosses lines) is irksome, it's also expected. It's an Arrow trope at this point.

    How Diggle came out of this was unexpected, and irritating. Diggle turning on his wife for things he himself has done, worse even, let alone what his team has done or condoned (Looking at your buddies in Central City, Digs)? The dude reeks of hypocrisy after this ep. and he basically annoyed the heck out of me this ep. He probably exhibited the worst of moral relativism: that you can change the meaning of "good" and "bad" on a whim, depending on the circumstances.

    Still, it was a good ep. And I feel the reason we got skim milk Olicity this ep is because they're saving the rich whole milk Olicity for the next ep. Brace yourselves.
    Last edited by President_Luthor; 04-28-2017 at 11:04 AM.

  5. #35
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    To be fair, Team Arrow has done its fair share of illegal imprisonments as well. Nyssa in season 3, Andy in season 4, Black Siren this season...



    It's not so much about Felicity being a threat or not. She did something illegal and it's Lyla's responsibility to take action against her.
    Lyla was holding the guy off the books. Officially Argus wouldn't acknowledge they had James and nor could they officially claim where he was held. So What would Lyla charge her with? Or does she get thrown in the off books black site now? I'd think also, helping save the WORLD twice in under a year gets you some slack as well.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    It's not so much about Felicity being a threat or not. She did something illegal and it's Lyla's responsibility to take action against her.
    I am confused. ARGUS is the organization that hired Fyres, right? The organization that threatened to kill Thea to make Oliver their personal assassin. The organization that put bombs in their operatives. The organization that knew who the Hood was from the beginning. Why should Lyla take action against Felicity simply because she did something illegal? Felicity has been doing illegal things since she joined the Hood.

    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    And in a nutshell, that's exactly why I dislike the direction this season has taken ever since 5.17. Instead of Oliver being the moral compass of the show, once again he's the opposite.
    I never saw Oliver as the shows moral compass. Neither character is. Instead, all the characters have to face hard choices and deal with the consequences. That is the fun of it - at least for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    Although, we have to keep in mind that even when Oliver wasn't beating himself up over something, he couldn't bring himself to judge Felicity about anything. The theme of this relationship has always been "Only Oliver is at fault".
    Oliver always felt like this. Since his father and Sara died and he survived he always thought he should have died. Even said so aloud when Tommy died:"It should have been me." I think, considering what Oliver did in the flashbacks he simply does not feel like judging others. He only kills to eliminate threats, not to judge.

  7. #37
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    Here are a few thoughts on the "Dangerous Liaisons" episode.

    I'm probably watching with different eyes than some of you, but I thought the whole HELIX plot was pretty unrealistic (even for a comic book show) and even comical. I mean, are we really supposed to think this Felicity clone and her hacker buddies are the leaders of some nefarious, dangerous clandestine hacker organization?? The whole thing was just ludicrous IMHO, especially since Felicity was her usual chirpy, quippy self while she was embarking on this supposedly dark story arc, talking to her clone/handler as if they were college girlfriends, rather than members of some potentially highly dangerous group of enemies of the state (in this case Argus). Honest to God , I felt I was watching Nickelodeon, rather than an adult superhero drama. Maybe that's why the break in at the Argus safe house seemed like a child's play, rather than the very serious cyber terrorist attack that it was presented as by Lyla.

    This episode was not as Felicity/Olicity-heavy as I feared it would be, but continuing this somewhat grumpy review, I just have to say that EBR just doesn't convince in these more serious/dark storylines that the writers occasionally give her character. If I have understood correctly, the intention behind Felicity’s HELIX storyline was to make her cross a line, and do whatever it takes to avenge Billy and catch Chase, something that would make her understand Oliver’s choices better. It’s just that Billy’s death was never even mentioned (although it was supposedly her grief that made her embark on her dark path) and EBR as Felicity wasn’t convincing enough to really make me understand WHY she was prepared to go to such lengths to catch Chase, like going behind the team’s back, or breaking into an ARGUS facility.

    As for her heart-to-heart conversations with Oliver, they were just as unconvincing. For me, who doesn’t feel the supposedly immense chemistry between EBR and SA, it was like watching two not-so-good actors trying to emote, but not quite managing to convey the deep feelings they were supposed to convey. In fact, Emily’s phrasing and intonation is sometimes so chopped and odd that it sounds like she’s reciting from the script, rather than, you know, acting and making the viewers feel what she is feeling. Unlike some other fans, whose reviews I’ve read, I don’t think she was b**tchy or mean to Oliver.... I just feel that she comes off as somewhat inconsiderate, e.g. in her last words to Oliver. I think her lines were supposed to sound poignant, but that’s not the effect they have on me, and I think it’s partly due to the (in my eyes) less than skilled delivery. Oh, and of course we had to have the mandatory Felicity praise from Diggle, and of course the writers made sure to let us know that nobody at Argus was hurt or killed, because Felicity could never be allowed to participate in anything that would cast a serious shadow on her…Anyway, I apologize to those who admire EBR and who think she is a good actress, but assessments of actor’s skills are subjective, and these are my subjective opinions on the subject. For me it is a problem when the acting hinders me from "getting into the scene" and suspend my disbelief.

    One final complaint…every time Curtis made some lame, pointless joke I just wanted to throw something at my computer screen! What is WRONG with these writers? If you can’t do humor properly, it’s just better to refrain, because as it is, they’re just doing the character and the actor a huge disservice. I’m sorry to say this, but Curtis is IMHO the most expendable character on the whole team, although he could be an asset if he was better written.

    The best parts of this episode were IMHO the Quentin/René scenes and the Diggle/Lyla scenes. It was nice to see Quentin get some meaningful screen time, and liked the fact that Renés father/daughter relationship served as an unforced occasion to refer to Quentin and Laurel (with two close ups of their family photo!). Rick Gonzales has grown into his role and has a good chemistry with Quentin/Paul…in fact, their characters have a lot in common, even the booze! It was also great to see Lyla again, especially since I think Audrey Marie Anderson is IMHO currently the best actress on the cast. Her acting seems so effortless and understated, and yet she is able to hit all the right emotional beats. So, watching her and DR share scenes is always a pleasure, even though their characters were at odds in this episode.

    I’m not going to delve into the moral aspects of this episode, because @President_Luthor did that much better than I can do in a previous post. I just feel that the “Arrow” writing often becomes pretty ham-fisted, especially when it comes to moral issues.

    Finally, has there ever been a season when Oliver hasn’t been ready to give everything up some time around the 19th or 20th episode, just to be brought back into the game by his pep-talking team??? It’s like he goes through this cycle every season, and it’s becoming a bit repetitive.

    Again, apologies to anyone who might find my comments a bit too caustic. I’m beginning to feel like I might be done with “Arrow”, because although I enjoy almost every episode as pure entertainment, there are also things that make me cringe, or annoy me…and I didn’t use to feel like this in the early seasons. So, either I have changed, or the show has changed, it’s hard to say which. Maybe I've been watching too much top notch television lately, like "Homeland", which might make the typical CW/Berlanti-verse flaws stand out a little more in my eyes.
    Last edited by evaba; 04-30-2017 at 02:35 AM.

  8. #38
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    Felicity wasn’t convincing enough to really make me understand WHY she was prepared to go to such lengths to catch Chase, like going behind the team’s back, or breaking into an ARGUS facility.
    Chase kidnapped, tortured and mentally broke Oliver and is still gunning for him and anyone he's close to. And Oliver feels he's responsible for creating this evil. Her reasons seem clear even before you add Chase killing Billy and many other citizens.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    Chase kidnapped, tortured and mentally broke Oliver and is still gunning for him and anyone he's close to. And Oliver feels he's responsible for creating this evil. Her reasons seem clear even before you add Chase killing Billy and many other citizens.
    I'm aware of the objective reasons, which by the way would serve as incentives for the other team members as well. My problem was more how EBR, in the way she portrays Felicity, could have done a better job externalizing/make me understand (better) what this means to Felicity specifically, and why she chose to deal with the problem by joining an organization whose motives and aims are somewhat murky. For example, in MY eyes Audrey Marie Anderson did a better job in conveying how the pressures of Lyla's current position have forced her to make choices which her husband find reproachable. In the end I guess it's mainly a matter of how each individual viewer "reads" the actors' performances.

  10. #40
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    Felicity, could have done a better job externalizing/make me understand (better) what this means to Felicity specifically, and why she chose to deal with the problem by joining an organization whose motives and aims are somewhat murky.
    Obviously we have a difference in opinion over EBR's acting choices, but even setting that aside, the dialogue had her flat out say she was on the side of stopping Chase. That's what Helix was to her. The solution to their problem. There was IMO no need to guess at anything from performance.

  11. #41
    Forum Regular Arrow_47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    What messaging? That Rene should get his act together and work to get his kid back? What politics? That holding someone on US soil without a trial is not legal? Well it's not. That's not politics. Dig seemed like he'd be fine with a black ops site if it was off American soil.
    Well, since you asked......interesting that in an hour show it didn't take long to guess which topic was political, even though you say it isn't. What makes it political is that the NDAA signed in 2011 by President Obama allows for the indefinite incarceration of American citizens without charges or trial. It was in 2012, and continues to be in 2017, a very hot political topic because it violates our civil rights. Not looking for a debate, or to hijack the thread, just stating my opinion.

    In any event, I'm glad several of you liked the episode. I just found it completely far-fetched, extremely forced, and very preachy. But I'm finding that to be very common for CW shows.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrow_47 View Post
    Well, since you asked......interesting that in an hour show it didn't take long to guess which topic was political, even though you say it isn't. What makes it political is that the NDAA signed in 2011 by President Obama allows for the indefinite incarceration of American citizens without charges or trial. It was in 2012, and continues to be in 2017, a very hot political topic because it violates our civil rights. Not looking for a debate, or to hijack the thread, just stating my opinion.
    Well in the episode, that isn't what Diggle was debating. I think topics that are sensitive to us as individuals tend to stand out brighter than they may actually appear in the episode. I heard nothing but the same kind of rhetoric that has gone hand and hand with spy agency story stuff for the last thirty years.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    Well in the episode, that isn't what Diggle was debating. I think topics that are sensitive to us as individuals tend to stand out brighter than they may actually appear in the episode. I heard nothing but the same kind of rhetoric that has gone hand and hand with spy agency story stuff for the last thirty years.
    I have to agree with Bkwurm1 here. This sort of stuff has ALWAYS been a part of spy agency stories.

    Anyways, its really hilarious Dig has this whole issue in this episode since he was party to dropping Slade off on Lian Yu, is aware of a certain pipeline, and has, along with Team Arrow, held more than one person prisoner in first the Arrowcave and now the Bunker WITHOUT TRIAL. So Dig has no room to speak on this issue because he's as guilty as Lyla.

    This is just another example of melodrama in the show, where plot takes precedence over character or story progression. They needed Dig and Oliver to be all mopey about Felicity's going down the dark path, needed Dig to vent about his wife doing the same thing, so they ignore Diggle's own involvement in such things for the sake of plot.

  14. #44
    Forum Regular Arrow_47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    Well in the episode, that isn't what Diggle was debating. I think topics that are sensitive to us as individuals tend to stand out brighter than they may actually appear in the episode. I heard nothing but the same kind of rhetoric that has gone hand and hand with spy agency story stuff for the last thirty years.
    You certainly have a valid point about how we see sensitive topics, but I panned the episode for more than the political theater. This is a comic book show about a vigilante, not a spy show. The idea that they would spend any time questioning the legality or morality of holding a suspected terrorist (cyber-terrorist in this case) is ludicrous at best. They wear masks and kill people for goodness sakes. Just poor storytelling from my perspective, which in the end doesn't really mean anything. I just like sharing my pov!

  15. #45
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    I won't go on about the absurdity of Team Arrow growing scruples about ARGUS secret prison deeds they themselves had done or were complicit in by letting them happen. Of all of them, Lyla is the only one who could say she was just doing her job. It's still bad in the civil liberties sense, but it's no secret to Team Arrow what ARGUS had done and is capable of doing. Their crocodile tears over it hold little weight.

    Moving on, how about Alena killing that ARGUS agent? Claiming it was an accident or miscalculation is a semantic Twister game she's playing -- it's still murder. It's first degree murder if she had intended all along to kill him. As for second degree murder that is: any intentional murder with malice aforethought, but is not premeditated or planned. She is likely guilty of one or the other. There's some intent involved when you're meddling with the functioning of an elevator -- a spontaneous "crime of passion" it ain't. And I'm guessing killing a federal agent comes with bonus charges as well. There's blood on her hands, and let's not forget she tried to kill Diggle when he was this close to catching her. If Lyla had seen how it played out like we did ... Alena would probably be dead already or with an int'l kill order hovering over her.

    Alena shouldn't be afraid of Team Arrow ... she should be afraid of Lyla. It would actually be worse for Alena if she left the continental U.S. and was caught elsewhere. Lyla could do some extraordinary rendition crap and who knows what ARGUS secret hellhole would await her then. She'd be lucky to only get Lian Yu.

    [But then again, having Slade as your cellblock neighbour might become annoying for other reasons]:

    Slade: "*talking through the bars* You know why I despise Oliver Queen so much?

    Alena (in another cell): Ohmigod, would you give. it. a. rest!!! Like I haven't heard alllllllll about it over the past week! You loved Shado, but Oliver won her over. Now you've been griping about it like Reggie Mantle over losing Veronica to Star City's very own Archie. I don't want to hear about it again!

    Slade: Fine! *petulant* I was going to give you the tiramisu cake that came with my dinner rations. Forgettabout it now, it's all mine. *eating* Yummmm, this tiramisu is delicious. Bet you didn't eat this good with Helix ...

    Alena: Well, at least when my lawyer comes by to go over my case, I don't have to hear you mock me. Oh wait. This is an ARGUS dark prison.

    Slade: Yeah, ain't no lawyer visiting your sorry ass, mate. MMmm mmm, this tiramisu is divine!

    Alena: So much for Helix's glorious revolution for the proletariat. *smells Slade's tiramisu cake* Dammit, that tiramisu smells sooo good! *covers her head with pillow to drown out his juvenile taunts, hears Slade cackle maniacally over eating the last piece of dessert* "

    Imagine months and months of that. Maybe Alena should surrender right now.

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