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  1. #16
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    I think the hiatus-happy periods have had a cumulative effect, esp. this season. I'd like to think I'm an invested viewer and even I've had to Google when the next block of new eps. were supposed to come back. Casual viewers wouldn't even bother with that and probably more than a few regular viewers may think it's not back til May.

    As for Billy, Felicity couldn't even bring herself to utter the 'L' word to him. Dude couldn't catch a break while living, and what sealed the deal for good was -- like Tommy, the original 'Can't catch a break'-er -- he also died in the arms of the guy who took his girl's heart. That's a pretty cold way to enter the afterlife. At least with Tommy, Savage and Zoom, Billy can have a poker club in the sky

    It's funny that Oliver had to be the one to highlight Billy's death as a motivating factor, since everyone else (maybe including her) wasn't aware that it weighed so heavily on her. Other reviews have said that it was a series of setbacks -- starting with the break-up, then Havenrock, Laurel's death, etc. -- with Billy's death as the last straw allegedly breaking her and spinning her towards darkness. This I might go along with ... you know, if we'd actually seen all these events affect her in as profound a way as the show is trying to tell us that it has.

    In spite of all this, Felicity didn't bug me in the way Diggle did this ep. He's been on and off as a character this whole season. This ep. he was definitely off. His trying to school his wife on taking a moral stand rings hollow when he and the team are every bit as murky with their own actions over the years. The Arrowcave has its own illegal jail, for cryin' out loud. Maybe they don't flaunt it like Team Flash, and maybe it's more "tolerable" in the context of morally greyer Team Arrow but it's still not cool.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    Well darn. MG answered my Tumblr question



    So Felicity actually was right to trust Helix. Or at least not clearly wrong. They didn't betray her. They gave her what she needed to have to find Chase. He just was still a step ahead. Not sure HOW he knew they found him but apparently the tracker really did find him in the bunker.
    Hmm... I'm not so sure. They could've given her what she needed, but also wanted to tie up loose ends. MG only said that Chase was really there. He didn't say he set off the explosion. Remember, these showrunners love their word games.

    Example: WM said Felicity would face blowback from her work with Helix. We just didn't expect it to be so literal.

  3. #18
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    I enjoyed the episode. I thought the writers showed how all sides were both right and wrong depending on your perspective and bias. Interesting that it kind of represents how the internet fanbase feels about the episode. If you hate Felicity you can find reasons that support your hate. Same goes for those who love her. As a neutral observer I just thought it was well written. Felicity and Oliver had some adult conversations (no melodrama, thank god) and it looks like it will carry over into next episode

  4. #19
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    Final ratings are in:

    http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/dai...april-26-2017/

    Seems like "Arrow" hit a series' low with this episode....which doesn't bode well for the next ep, since there are pre-emptions in certain key areas.

  5. #20
    Forum Regular Arrow_47's Avatar
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    Hands down worst episode of the series. MG and Co. really need to stop peddling their politics and try their hand at good storytelling. The dialogue in this particular episode was so deliberate in its' messaging that it lacked any emotion and fell completely flat. What a disappointment. I sure hope there's a big payoff in the end for the faithful followers of this show.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDBentz View Post
    Hmm... I'm not so sure. They could've given her what she needed, but also wanted to tie up loose ends. MG only said that Chase was really there. He didn't say he set off the explosion. Remember, these showrunners love their word games.

    Example: WM said Felicity would face blowback from her work with Helix. We just didn't expect it to be so literal.
    And Chase being "there" could easily be just the flash drive saying Chase was there when he never was and it's all just part of Helix tying up lose ends.

  7. #22
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evaba View Post
    Ratings for 5X19:

    http://tvseriesfinale.com/tv-show/ar...-five-ratings/

    I didn't find any GATV ratings' report, otherwise I would have posted that one. Ratings remain at a steady low, and the fact that this was a Felicity/Olicity-heavy episode doesn't seem to have had any impact at all on the ratings. The long hiatus probably had adverse effects, since casual viewers don't keep track of when new episodes appear, the way the more committed fans do.
    It held steady at the same demo numbers as before the hiatus. Given how much Supergirl dropped, I count not going down a win.

  8. #23
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrow_47 View Post
    Hands down worst episode of the series. MG and Co. really need to stop peddling their politics and try their hand at good storytelling. The dialogue in this particular episode was so deliberate in its' messaging that it lacked any emotion and fell completely flat. What a disappointment. I sure hope there's a big payoff in the end for the faithful followers of this show.
    What messaging? That Rene should get his act together and work to get his kid back? What politics? That holding someone on US soil without a trial is not legal? Well it's not. That's not politics. Dig seemed like he'd be fine with a black ops site if it was off American soil.
    Quote Originally Posted by Haggard01 View Post
    And Chase being "there" could easily be just the flash drive saying Chase was there when he never was and it's all just part of Helix tying up lose ends.
    Whether Helix had any part of the explosion could be up to debate if MG chose to be sneaky, though from the way I phrased the question, I don't get that vibe. But MG did absolutely confirm that Chase really was there. Because I thought it was all faked by Helix to blow up the bunker and he nixed that understanding.

  9. #24
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    And I believe it was Oliver who -- while he was apologizing of course -- reminded her that her grief over Billy may have helped spin her down this path. As a motive, this was largely tell v. show again. We are being told it's a significant factor, but over the season we haven't really seen it unfold like this.
    I'm pretty sure only Diggle mentioned to Oliver that Felicity was grieving and it does things to people. He brought it up right before telling Oliver that since she was going to marry him, he'd be the only one that could stop her [from crossing the arbitrary line that they decided she might be crossing even though their not sure it is crossing a line (and I quote "You might be crossing a line" followed by Oliver to Diggle, I don't know if she's not right) and Diggle isn't sure if Lyla is doing the right thing in keeping Cayden James locked up]

    It was an odd episode. Really less Felicity vs Team than Felicty vs Lyla who had the team helping her even if they weren't sure why.

    In the end it seemed Oliver wanted to save Felicity from having to make this tough choice (release potential danger vs stop proven danger) and Felicity wanted him to let her take some of the burden of making the tough choices off his shoulders and he couldn't let her do it. He doesn't even argue that her choice is the wrong one or that he wouldn't have made it if it was just him, but that he was worried about her and didn't feel right that she was willing to "sell her soul" to stop Chase, who he viewed as his mistake. There was a lot of concern about souls being sold and really, that was an over sell for Felicity and Lyla, both who seemed fine with their choices. It was just the guys freaking out.

    (c) Felicity isn't arrested for working with an illegal group of hackers.
    No one on this show is arrested for their illegal activities. Why again should Felicity be singled out?

    (d) No one truly calls out Felicity on her actions and Oliver even ends up apologizing.
    He didn't apologize. He said he was sorry that she lost her connection with Helix because he knew she enjoyed the feeling of belonging or something like that. It was him expressing sympathy at her loss. He didn't apologize for opposing her and not backing her plan up.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    It held steady at the same demo numbers as before the hiatus. Given how much Supergirl dropped, I count not going down a win.
    It seems as though all the Berlanti-verse shows are going through a general slump in the ratings, and the rest of the "Arrow" season will probably don't get more than a 04-05 demo and at most 1.5 million viewers. It's a bit sad IMHO, because season five (despite its problems) is generally considered an improvement over the dismal season four (outside the Olicity fandom, that is!). IF "Arrow" ratings go down even more, it will have lost a million viewers and 0.3 in the demo since the ending of season four.

    http://tvseriesfinale.com/tv-show/ar...ratings-38484/

    If you look at season five, it's the crossover episode which makes the season average look decent, Without those 3 million viewers and the 1.3 demo, the figures would be much lower:

    http://tvseriesfinale.com/tv-show/ar...-five-ratings/


    http://tvseriesfinale.com/tv-show/ar...-five-ratings/

    It's also interesting that the ratings for S5 are actually LOWER than those predicted by this tumblr blogger and statistics expert:


    http://rillacuthbert.tumblr.com/post...ratings-models

    It also seems that the content of a particular episode (which characters/storylines dominate) or the amount of social media buzz surrounding it don't have any real impact on the Nielsen ratings. "Arrow" has found its steady domestic 'live' viewership, and that viewership is around 1-1.5 million and a 0.5 demo. The decrease in demo/viewers might have some repercussions for the budget, since the cost of a 30-second commercial spot is determined by the show's current ratings. So, the budget will probably be even more tight in season six, with fewer expensive sets or outdoor shots. Given this, I suspect that Oliver will still be sleeping in the lair in season six (unless he hooks up with Felicity again, and moves into Thea's apartment!).

    And while we're talking about ratings, "Supernatural" is one of those rare shows which actually has gotten BETTER ratings in later seasons, with the 2015-2016 season bringing in more viewers than the previous seasons:

    http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=Ratings
    Last edited by evaba; 04-29-2017 at 09:30 AM.

  11. #26
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrow_47 View Post
    Hands down worst episode of the series. MG and Co. really need to stop peddling their politics and try their hand at good storytelling. The dialogue in this particular episode was so deliberate in its' messaging that it lacked any emotion and fell completely flat. What a disappointment. I sure hope there's a big payoff in the end for the faithful followers of this show.
    Needs to be pointed out that this episode was half-written by Marc Guggenheim's assistant. So it's not surprising it came out as Felicity-loving as it did.

    I also hope there's a decent payoff, but it's hard to be too optimistic when the titular hero is repeatedly thrown under the bus and other characters are constantly made to look morally superior. Even if the show ends with the Green Arrow as the beacon of hope who doesn't cross the line, it will basically be a retread. He was at that place in season 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    No one on this show is arrested for their illegal activities. Why again should Felicity be singled out?
    Oliver and the team have been hunted down by the police in the past. Laurel was arrested in season 2. Moira was arrested for the Undertaking in season 1. And while in these instances we might not have been handled in a realistic manner, at least there was an intention to show that a character's illegal act wasn't going by unnoticed. Even if the character wasn't eventually arrested. At the same time, there have been instances where someone hasn't been arrested or even chased by the police because there was no evidence (e.g. Oliver in Season 1 or Diggle when he killed his brother). And of course there have also been some instances where someone got away with murder (like Malcolm), but they are the exception. Not the rule.

    In this episode, Felicity interferes with a goverment organization's business, said organization's leader knows this and does nothing about it. Because it's Felicity who's never held accountable for anything.


    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    He didn't apologize. He said he was sorry that she lost her connection with Helix because he knew she enjoyed the feeling of belonging or something like that. It was him expressing sympathy at her loss. He didn't apologize for opposing her and not backing her plan up.
    Firstly, why should he even apologize about the fact that her partnership with Helix ended? They were an illegal group of hackers/terrorists who nearly got her in serious trouble. Not to mention that his line about Helix giving her a sense of belonging was like him admitting that Team Arrow failed to give her one (which is baloney). Secondly, just notice his stance while Felicity is going off on him about not backing her play. He's defensive and the only words he manages to squeeze out are "I was worried". He looked pretty apologetic to me. About something that he shouldn't feel sorry about one bit.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrow_47 View Post
    Hands down worst episode of the series. MG and Co. really need to stop peddling their politics and try their hand at good storytelling. The dialogue in this particular episode was so deliberate in its' messaging that it lacked any emotion and fell completely flat. What a disappointment. I sure hope there's a big payoff in the end for the faithful followers of this show.
    I just found this post, which sums up the "moral dilemmas" that the writers tried to depict in this ep:

    Holy ****. Half the dialogue in this episode basically boils down to: "You did Y?" "Yeah, well, you did X." "X doesn't justify Y." "Yes, it does. I'm in the right." "No, moving past X makes X justified, thus I'm in the right."
    LOL! Subtlety has never been the "Arrow" writers forte!

  13. #28
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
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    ^^Yikes. The problem with stretching the Berlanti-verse to 4 shows is that they don't have a deep enough pool of writers for such an enterprise. And the end result is having a lot of episodes being written by new writers who have little knowledge of the characters' history or new writers who simply are not good enough. Some of the dialogue they write is so hokey and poor.

    It's one of the reasons why the Flash has had such a mediocre 3rd season.
    Last edited by costas22; 04-28-2017 at 02:46 AM.

  14. #29
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    Hmm.... will Cayden James (?) and Helix be the new big bad in season six? I mean, it was fishy that Lyla didn't say anything about him, except that he was a good hacker and that he hacked into Argus (something Felicity can do, too, and so can probably her father). But to stop Felicity from hacking one just needs to take away her computer or put her into a WiFi free zone, right? So why was this guy held the way he was held? A Meta-hacker or what? Why didn't we see his face?

    As to the episode: solid. Good pacing. I enjoyed it. The part with Wilddog's child was good. And I liked it that the Dyla marriage problems were in fact the old problems they already had when Waller was still running Argus. And typical for Argus they don't give all the facts even to their allies like Team Arrow. Seems like Lyla is becoming more and more like Waller - though it is still quite a step from holding people like Deathstroke and this James to hiring Fyres to destroy a plane with civilians.

    As to Felicity and Oliver - I think there is a big difference between their choices and the risks they take to get what they want (or what seems necessary to them). Oliver doesn't trust any organization he uses to get what he wants, neither Argus nor Bratva. When he kills it is HIS kill, he hates it when somebody else has the power. Oliver trusts Lyla and Anatoly because he knows them for a long time (and only so far anyway), but he never trusted their organizations. Oliver does his homework when he has to ally himself with others. When he trusts or uses people he tries to find out their agenda, for example he would not ally with Malcom as long as Malcom wanted to level the glades but when Malcom's goal was to become Ras' al Gul he accepted him as ally.

    Felicity on the other hand trusted Helix for no reason. Sure, they helped her before but they wanted things in return, too. Quite possible that they only helped her because of her connection to Argus in the first place. She does not have the slightest clue what they are capable of in moral terms, what their goals are. She has no idea about their agenda.

    So it seems to me the difference is that Oliver's risks are calculated. He does not jump into the cold water without checking it's depth as Felicity does. But it fits - character-wise. Oliver went through these five years of betrayal where he learned not to trust easily and if possible to stay the one most dangerous (remember how he entered Argus and talked to Waller in season two?). But Felicity does not have these experiences. Like she helped The Hood in season one mainly because she liked Oliver Queen and because she liked doing illegal things. Seriously, even then I though that finding Walter was just an excuse. It worked, though, because Oliver and Diggle are what they are, but she does not know anything about Helix and still she gave them power. Helix could easily be more dangerous than Chase and Thalia could ever be. If Felicity had gone through the same "school" as Oliver she would have hacked Argus to find out why Caydan James was held before doing anything to free him. And she should have tried to find out more about Helix (even tested them) before giving them so much power.

    As I said: solid episode and the characters are as they are.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    In this episode, Felicity interferes with a goverment organization's business, said organization's leader knows this and does nothing about it. Because it's Felicity who's never held accountable for anything.
    I think this is just because Lyla knows Felicity and does not judge her as a threat. If it had been Waller things would have been different.


    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    Firstly, why should he even apologize about the fact that her partnership with Helix ended? They were an illegal group of hackers/terrorists who nearly got her in serious trouble. Not to mention that his line about Helix giving her a sense of belonging was like him admitting that Team Arrow failed to give her one (which is baloney). Secondly, just notice his stance while Felicity is going off on him about not backing her play. He's defensive and the only words he manages to squeeze out are "I was worried". He looked pretty apologetic to me. About something that he shouldn't feel sorry about one bit.
    I guess he was apologetic because he still believes that it is dues to his influence that the people he loves suffer. That was his idea since season one: that he is responsible for everything, if something goes wrong, if someone dies - it is all his fault. That psycho session with Chase certainly didn't help so far.

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