View Poll Results: What did you think?

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  1. #16
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    I will give Barry points on that call.

    S1 Team Flash would have parked Kadabra in that cell and they'd spend weeks hemming and hawing about what to do. Barry was, in this rare instance thinking of the bigger picture. Kadabra had to answer for his crimes. This trumped his personal stake, he did what was right for the greater good even at the price of sacrificing someone he loves.

    This is the Barry that can take his rightful spot by Superman and Batman's side in the JL. Great Scott, I want to see more -not less- of this side if Barry.

    We don't see enough of his selfless side, and way too much of his entitled meta selfish side.

  2. #17
    10 years at KSite costas22's Avatar
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    I think Barry will learn his lesson around the time Oliver figures out if he should kill or not. So I wouldn't hold my breath until season 6 of the Flash. At least.

    The real question is when will the rest of the team stop going out on their own and making foolish decisions that jeopardize missions. Because that pattern this season has been even more evident than Barry's time meddling and everyone (Wally, Jesse, Iris, HR, Cisco, Caitlin and even Joe) has been guilty of it. I refuse to blame Barry for everything wrong with the show when there is so much costly pigheadedness at Star Labs. Whatever Barry set in motion through Flashpoint (which, again, besides Dante's death and baby Sara becoming baby John is debatable), we are still talking about a bunch of adults who are committing blunders on their own volition. That's on them.
    Last edited by costas22; 03-29-2017 at 09:23 AM.

  3. #18
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    I think the issue is the DNA of the show itself. Too much emphasis on the team, where their lives and actions become more important at times than the lead's. It also has the effect of maybe downplaying the gravity of some screwups Barry should be held to account for.

    Flashpoint itself has been muddled as an arc. We're supposed to think it was a catastrophe, Barry messed up everyone's lives, etc. But like I was saying on another thread, its effects on the Flarrowverse have been mere paper cuts.

    While I don't feel Barry is as bad of a temporal offender as the LoT crew (those guys were one Crucifixion visit away from being certifiable outlaws, if they're not already), I feel Barry does need to own up to more than the show has allowed. I'm not talking punishment per se, but real and lasting modifying of his behaviour and actions. That is the real proof of lessons he's alleged to have learned.

    His letting Kadabra face justice was a small sign in this regard. What I'm saying is we don't get enough of these moments from him.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward Galaxy View Post
    I'm glad you pointed that out, because it is true. He asked. He begged. He pleaded. When it didn't work, he let Gypsy take him. Because that's what a hero (like the Flash) does. You do everything you can up until the point where you have to sacrifice doing what's right and bringing the villain to justice.
    He, and the rest of the team as well for that matter, let Gypsy take him knowing full well that it would be to his death. (Although obviously he won't die since he stated he's been Barry's foe for 'years' but that this was the 1st time Barry had met him), regardless, a 'hero' wouldn't have let even a villain be taken to their death, as on the face of it, it's not a 'heroic' action.

    Rather than growth, it smacked more of - You're not going to tell me what I want to know, ok, die then you ******.

  5. #20
    10 years at KSite costas22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    I think the issue is the DNA of the show itself. Too much emphasis on the team, where their lives and actions become more important at times than the lead's. It also has the effect of maybe downplaying the gravity of some screwups Barry should be held to account for.
    That's where I beg to differ though. They are not downplayed. On the contrary, we often find Barry shouldering the blame for stuff he had nothing to do with. Like the time he blamed himself for Wally getting trapped in the Speed Force. Which was ludicrous given Wally's lies and actions in that episode. Caitlin, as KF, blamed him for Eddie and Ronnie's deaths. Which was also something he accepted. It must be fun to dump on Barry in that writers' room.

  6. #21
    Pirate King Backward Galaxy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speople View Post
    He, and the rest of the team as well for that matter, let Gypsy take him knowing full well that it would be to his death. (Although obviously he won't die since he stated he's been Barry's foe for 'years' but that this was the 1st time Barry had met him), regardless, a 'hero' wouldn't have let even a villain be taken to their death, as on the face of it, it's not a 'heroic' action.

    Rather than growth, it smacked more of - You're not going to tell me what I want to know, ok, die then you ******.
    The death penalty is legal in plenty of places on our planet. It would be one thing if Barry knew Gypsy was going to take revenge and kill him herself. That's not what happened. Barry let her take him to be put on trial, and then didn't judge their Earth for having the death penalty.

    Two very different things.

  7. #22
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    It must be fun to dump on Barry in that writers' room.
    Barry does have a tendency to own the faults of others, if he's six or sixty degrees of separation from it. And even if he has nothing to do with it too.

    But I do feel Barry at times gets the 'lead superhero pass', when screw-ups should be on him but for whatever reason, he doesn't get the appropriate heat on them. A similar type of absolution SV Clark long got for screwing up, which frustrated the heck outta me about SV.

    I feel there needs to be some resolution of, at least, Barry re: Flashpoint: owning any fallout big or small, real progress on what he has in fact learned and, more importantly, what he intends to do to change his own behaviour going forward as a result. I want the character to grow, and be seen to grow, is all I'm asking to see. The time where Barry acknowledging he learned his lesson was sufficient is behind him, it is time to for him to demonstrate it.

    The last thing I want is Barry in some future season, being angry at Jay, the Speed Force, or whoever for his own mistakes aka pulling a Clark tantrum over Jor-El, and deflecting responsibility for those mistakes he does and should own.

    My problem is the 'two steps forward-three steps back' dance they've got Barry doing. They should be mindful of not portraying him as too flawed or damaged, which I think happened to Clark as the seasons wore on. There's making the hero relatable and accessible to viewers, and then there's tarnishing his image to the point where we may even question whether he is actually worthy to wear the costume. Barry's not at Clark levels yet, but it's a concern of mine for Barry's journey.

  8. #23
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    Abra Kadabra' is a good episode. We meet the villain from the 64th Century for the first time in this episode. While he is sent to his death, a younger version of him might come back in a future episode of Flash or Legends.

  9. #24
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    This show is pretty funny at times. The Caitlin/Julian romance is consistently amusing because it pretends I care in the slightest. Iris assisting in the surgery was hilarious, and I absolutely laughed out loud.

    I'm tired of this Savitar story. Let's get on with it already. The Flash is not a character who should be dragging his feet.

    It would have been nice if Gypsy could have simply stood for justice without being out for revenge herself.

    Admittedly, I found the Cisco/Gypsy romance tolerable.

    I also liked how Barry let Kadabra go at the end. It's unfortunate that he had to have Iris lecture him again about not sacrificing his morality for her life.

    Speaking of Iris, she flip-flopped hard, if I recall correctly. One scene, she said, "We can't let him go until he tells us who Savitar is." The next, she told Barry they couldn't just let him go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Backward Galaxy View Post
    Every single one of the problems you just described would not have happened if not for Flashpoint. So, yes, Joe made the decision to set AK free, Wally made the decision to throw the last piece of the stone into the speed force, Jesse made the decision to take over for Jay, and Jay volunteered for eternal torment. But none of those decisions would have come up if not for Barry.
    Barry wouldn't have created Flashpoint if Thawne hadn't killed his mother. Let's blame Thawne.

    No, wait. Thawne only killed Nora because he wanted to kill Barry because Barry had stopped him from doing bad things. Aw, man, it's Barry's fault again.

    No, wait. Barry never would have become The Flash in the first place if not for the original Wells. Let's blame Wells.

  10. #25
    10 years at KSite costas22's Avatar
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    ^^^

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by nate-dog1701d View Post
    This show is pretty funny at times. The Caitlin/Julian romance is consistently amusing because it pretends I care in the slightest. Iris assisting in the surgery was hilarious, and I absolutely laughed out loud.

    I'm tired of this Savitar story. Let's get on with it already. The Flash is not a character who should be dragging his feet.

    It would have been nice if Gypsy could have simply stood for justice without being out for revenge herself.

    Admittedly, I found the Cisco/Gypsy romance tolerable.

    I also liked how Barry let Kadabra go at the end. It's unfortunate that he had to have Iris lecture him again about not sacrificing his morality for her life.

    Speaking of Iris, she flip-flopped hard, if I recall correctly. One scene, she said, "We can't let him go until he tells us who Savitar is." The next, she told Barry they couldn't just let him go.



    Barry wouldn't have created Flashpoint if Thawne hadn't killed his mother. Let's blame Thawne.

    No, wait. Thawne only killed Nora because he wanted to kill Barry because Barry had stopped him from doing bad things. Aw, man, it's Barry's fault again.

    No, wait. Barry never would have become The Flash in the first place if not for the original Wells. Let's blame Wells.
    All kidding aside, I've never really understood thawne's motivation- it was like he became a sociopath right out of the gate.
    Last edited by protege; 03-30-2017 at 12:26 PM.

  12. #27
    Pirate King Backward Galaxy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nate-dog1701d View Post
    Barry wouldn't have created Flashpoint if Thawne hadn't killed his mother. Let's blame Thawne.

    No, wait. Thawne only killed Nora because he wanted to kill Barry because Barry had stopped him from doing bad things. Aw, man, it's Barry's fault again.

    No, wait. Barry never would have become The Flash in the first place if not for the original Wells. Let's blame Wells.
    Except those aren't the themes of the season. The entire theme of this season has been that Barry did this. The back of my head is caved in from the hammer they've been using to bash that one home. I'm just waiting for that one final shoe to drop.

  13. #28
    Forum Regular AsteroidMike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speople View Post
    How many people's lives has Barry ruined since he started his quest to try and save Iris ?

    He put Jay in eternal torment.
    Jesse is now on Earth 3
    Psychologically, it's unknown what the long term effects of Wally witnessing his mother's death time after time after time, will be.
    Caitlin is dead (without the 'quest' he'd have let Gypsy take Abrakadabra immediately and Caitlin would therefore be alive)
    Every person who KF now kills is PURELY because of Barry's quest to save Iris.

    Barry is an out and out selfish moron. It would have been 'heroic' if he'd let the future just happen, he may end up saving Iris, but in doing so he's ruining, even ending, the lives of EVERYONE else around him in the process. Way to go ....... 'hero'.
    Absolutely none of those are true.

    Jay willingly chose to stay in "eternal torment" instead of leaving for some reason. Jesse chose to leave for Earth-3, again for no reason since Earth-2 also needs a Flash. Wally's psychological problems are largely his fault for playing right into Savitar's hands. Caitlin became Killer Frost because Julian didn't put her necklace back right away. Literally none of these are Barry's fault in any way.

  14. #29
    Forum Whiz TheSecretVampire's Avatar
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    Abra possibly named drop the main villain we'll see in season 4...Davoe.


    And no, this isn't confirmed or a spoiler.


    This show is too pushy and corny when it comes to romance pairings. Yeah, let's force feed Cisco and Gypsy just so Cisco doesn't feel alone! Those 2 have no chemistry at all and I hope that pairing never happens. I see the same thing with Cailtin and Julian...nothing there either. A case can be made for Barry and Iris, but at least there's some solid build there, though I see more out of Barry and Kara and heck, even Barry and Joe.
    Last edited by TheSecretVampire; 03-30-2017 at 03:09 PM.

  15. #30
    Forum Regular AsteroidMike's Avatar
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    Overall, the episode itself was pretty good and not too depressing like a couple of episodes earlier. I kinda like the relationship rift being Cisco and Gypsy, though I'm certain that can be mended with time.

    What I didn't like was Joe, of all people, being the dumb one and releasing Abra Kadabra. Granted, he did have him at gunpoint and was intently focused but still, not wise to release a known felon with extreme superhuman abilities and not expect an escape attempt.

    Regarding Caitlin, I'm not sure how long she remains as Killer Frost since she metaphorically "died" in the episode. I have to ask, though, is it really safe to operate on someone who's been impaled like she was, while they're awake?

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