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  1. #1
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    Arrow's rating drop down to 1.40 million viewers

    http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/dai...march-22-2017/

    The downward trend continues, but at least the demo was stable at 0,5. Still, it's probably only a matter of time until we hit the illustrious 0,4.

  2. #2
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
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    According to the final numbers, Arrow had 0.50 in demo and 1.38 million viewers this week. Needless to say, both are series lows. Also, Legends of Tomorrow is actually beating Arrow in the ratings as of late. As does Supernatural.

    Posed this question recently, but I'm really starting to wonder if Arrow might end up on Friday nights next season.

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    LOT is beating Arrow in the ratings because of The Flash lead-in. When The Flash does well, so does LOT. When The Flash hits a ratings low (as seen last week), LOT's hitting the pits as well.

    As for a potential move to Fridays, I guess that's possible, but the CW has several shows that are doing even worse, e.g. Jane the Virgin, The 100 and Riverdale. Maybe they'll try moving the show to the 9PM slot first and if that doesn't work, they'll ship it off to Fridays the following year?

  4. #4
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadow08 View Post
    LOT is beating Arrow in the ratings because of The Flash lead-in. When The Flash does well, so does LOT. When The Flash hits a ratings low (as seen last week), LOT's hitting the pits as well.
    Not sure how much of an effect Flash has had, tbh. Legends is doing roughly the same numbers in this time slot than it was doing in its previous one. It seems to have a very specific audience. Arrow was marginally ahead for most of the season, but it fell behind over the last couple of months.

    Quote Originally Posted by shadow08 View Post
    As for a potential move to Fridays, I guess that's possible, but the CW has several shows that are doing even worse, e.g. Jane the Virgin, The 100 and Riverdale. Maybe they'll try moving the show to the 9PM slot first and if that doesn't work, they'll ship it off to Fridays the following year?
    Yeah, they could try something along those lines first. Maybe even have it air back to back with another DC show.

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    Here are some numbers concerning the relative ratings' loss between The Flash and Arrow:


    • Flash: down 21% this season compared to last season (on average), down at most 25% from this season's premiere to the most recent episode (down 29% from season premiere to last week's series low)
    • Arrow: down 31% this season compared to last season (on average), down 31% from this season's premiere to the most recent episode (series low).

  6. #6
    Forum Whiz Amarice's Avatar
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    And still no Cupid in the episode.

    Sorry, I can't stop myself from pointing this out every time "Arrow" hits the series low because for me it was rather absurd to blame for poor viewership a character who had less than 25 minutes of the screentime in the whole show and was used as a Plot Device in every episode except maybe 3x07.

    The simple truth is that people we dropped "Arrow" in season 3/4 simply won't magically tune back in. Due to various reasons.

    Still, I'm waiting for "analysis" from a certain fanbase claiming that it's the lack of Olicity/romance/OTA/omelettes that causes the show to hit the series low.

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    @Amarice, I was only joking about Cupid's presence sinking the ratings! I just happen to think the eps where she appears are among the most cringe-worthy, although it's not really her fault! Speaking of Olicity, it seems that the O/F romance (but hopefully not omelettes and soufflés!) is on the way back to the show. It seems that Guggenheim and company are sticking to the standard TV romance formula of keeping the main couple apart until the final episodes:

    http://screenertv.com/television/arr...ship-season-5/

    Now, if the Olicity reunion causes a ratings' boast, the analysis from a certain fanbase might be proven right.....but if the ratings remain at their current low, it will be the final proof that online social media activities such as partisan trending (i.e. twitter trends aimed at extolling a certain character/ship/team constellation), MTV shipper trophies etc. have no correlation whatsoever with general viewing patterns. BTW, given the fact that 5X17 was a series low, the latest Olicter twitter trend seems rather ironic and ultimately somewhat deluded:

    http://imgur.com/a/Rpzth

  8. #8
    Site Groupie Shelby Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evaba View Post
    ... the latest Olicter twitter trend seems rather ironic and ultimately somewhat deluded:

    http://imgur.com/a/Rpzth
    Excuse me, but whatever that was, it was pretty bizarre...and it hurt my eyes

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Kent View Post
    Excuse me, but whatever that was, it was pretty bizarre...and it hurt my eyes
    If you want some REAL bizarre, check Google for "Olicity babies"!

    https://tinyurl.com/mv6vtk4

    I'm sure that there are loads of tumblr blogs and fan fics on the subject as well. And after the last ep, where the writers really laid it on thick with the references to Oliver's by now hundreds of killings, the whole fluffy "Daddy Oliver cuddling the Olicity triplets" and the hundreds of other domestic scenarios and fantasies that some fans indulge in seem even more bizarre and even delusional....at least from a Real World perspective.

  10. #10
    Forum Whiz Amarice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evaba View Post
    @Amarice, I was only joking about Cupid's presence sinking the ratings! I just happen to think the eps where she appears are among the most cringe-worthy, although it's not really her fault! Speaking of Olicity, it seems that the O/F romance (but hopefully not omelettes and soufflés!) is on the way back to the show. It seems that Guggenheim and company are sticking to the standard TV romance formula of keeping the main couple apart until the final episodes:
    I understand. Then again I saw a lot of posts here or there making a direct connection between Carrie's presence and bad ratings, and apparently those posters were very serious about that, eh. I like 3x07 (with an option filter out: Olicity/Raycity content), but 3x17 is one of my least favorite episodes of all time (it suffers from a disorders called lack of the Arrow in "Arrow", Uncessary Love Triangle, Uncessary Death of a Character Due to DC/WB Policy, The Lack of the Actual Plot, The Arrow Not Giving a Damn About His Sidekicks, Not Enough Cupid in an episode).

    Quote Originally Posted by evaba View Post
    If you want some REAL bizarre, check Google for "Olicity babies"!

    https://tinyurl.com/mv6vtk4

    I'm sure that there are loads of tumblr blogs and fan fics on the subject as well. And after the last ep, where the writers really laid it on thick with the references to Oliver's by now hundreds of killings, the whole fluffy "Daddy Oliver cuddling the Olicity triplets" and the hundreds of other domestic scenarios and fantasies that some fans indulge in seem even more bizarre and even delusional....at least from a Real World perspective.
    I can't offer a professional observation here as I'm not brave enough to check what really is hidden under Olicity - fandom tag on AO3. I don't know, maybe there is some good fics there, but I hardly read anything lately (I've read all fics about Carrie, Amanda and Quentin that were worth reading I guess).

    I thought that Bratva Olicity is a popular trend in fics but it entirely possible that I'm far behind the trends, lol.
    Last edited by Amarice; 03-24-2017 at 05:49 PM.

  11. #11
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amarice View Post

    The simple truth is that people we dropped "Arrow" in season 3/4 simply won't magically tune back in. Due to various reasons.

    Still, I'm waiting for "analysis" from a certain fanbase claiming that it's the lack of Olicity/romance/OTA/omelettes that causes the show to hit the series low.
    We'll never know since we didn't get any of that this season. What we do know is lack of all that didn't bring in the viewers.

    Quote Originally Posted by evaba View Post
    @

    Now, if the Olicity reunion causes a ratings' boast, the analysis from a certain fanbase might be proven right.....but if the ratings remain at their current low, it will be the final proof that online social media activities such as partisan trending (i.e. twitter trends aimed at extolling a certain character/ship/team constellation), MTV shipper trophies etc. have no correlation whatsoever with general viewing patterns. BTW, given the fact that 5X17 was a series low, the latest Olicter twitter trend seems rather ironic and ultimately somewhat deluded:

    http://imgur.com/a/Rpzth
    When it comes to ratings trends at this point it's too late in the season to expect Olicity to impact the ratings. As you pointed out, chances are they wouldn't even get back together until the last episode so it's too late at that point to tune in the following week. If they get back together, the next ratings trend to watch will be the start of season 6. I don't actually expect a big bump even then, but if they can get the numbers back up to with in a reasonable distance from where the season optimistically started in 5, I'd throw a little credit Olicity's way.

    Quote Originally Posted by evaba View Post
    If you want some REAL bizarre, check Google for "Olicity babies"!

    https://tinyurl.com/mv6vtk4

    I'm sure that there are loads of tumblr blogs and fan fics on the subject as well. And after the last ep, where the writers really laid it on thick with the references to Oliver's by now hundreds of killings, the whole fluffy "Daddy Oliver cuddling the Olicity triplets" and the hundreds of other domestic scenarios and fantasies that some fans indulge in seem even more bizarre and even delusional....at least from a Real World perspective.


    And while it's not really relevant to the show, I guess I don't see how people imagining someone five or six years or a decade (depending on the fanfic) removed from being caught up in the hood life still means the man wouldn't want kids. Oliver seemed really happy to have a son even last year, well except for the danger part. No one writes stories about happy endings and babies while Oliver is running high on his season one kill everything mode.

    And from a real world perspective, are you saying any soldier that has been to war and killed should never think about any future domestic happiness? How is that a real world perspective?

    Seems pretty reasonable to me that Oliver could some day get over his trauma and then get some version of the life that we've already seen him want. It's all fiction. It's as realistic as anything else on this show.
    Last edited by BkWurm1; 03-24-2017 at 07:08 PM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    We'll never know since we didn't get any of that this season. What we do know is lack of all that didn't bring in the viewers.


    When it comes to ratings trends at this point it's too late in the season to expect Olicity to impact the ratings. As you pointed out, chances are they wouldn't even get back together until the last episode so it's too late at that point to tune in the following week. If they get back together, the next ratings trend to watch will be the start of season 6. I don't actually expect a big bump even then, but if they can get the numbers back up to with in a reasonable distance from where the season optimistically started in 5, I'd throw a little credit Olicity's way.


    And while it's not really relevant to the show, I guess I don't see how people imagining someone five or six years or a decade (depending on the fanfic) removed from being caught up in the hood life still means the man wouldn't want kids. Oliver seemed really happy to have a son even last year, well except for the danger part. No one writes stories about happy endings and babies while Oliver is running high on his season one kill everything mode.

    And from a real world perspective, are you saying any soldier that has been to war and killed should never think about any future domestic happiness? How is that a real world perspective?

    Seems pretty reasonable to me that Oliver could some day get over his trauma and then get some version of the life that we've already seen him want. It's all fiction. It's as realistic as anything else on this show.

    I was actually not referring to fan fics (because I don't read them), but to tweets and tumblr blogs where it is suggested that Olicity should have their babies ON SCREEN soon. So it's not really a prospective/"what if" scenario, but something that some fans are dreaming of seeing on the actual show next season (or if "Arrow" gets a seventh season, as the happy ending of the series). And if you check the producers'/writers' twitter feeds, you'll see clamors for Olicity babies there as well. To me that amounts to imposing a fan fic AU scenario on the actual writing, in a way that clashes with everything that we have learned about Oliver this season. Not only has he reverted to his season one "I have no qualms about killing if it's necessary" mode, but in ”Kapiushon” he confessed that he actually ENJOYED killing not so many years ago, and that he hid his bloodlust beneath the pretext of his noble mission (i.e. "When I put on the hood, I'm allowed to kill").

    Given this, I think it would be totally out of character to present/imagine Oliver as a domesticated happy father, running out to buy diapers for his lovely triplets and in general living a comfy suburban life with wifey Felicity. Of course, fan fics ARE alternative universes where the writers can take many liberties with the on screen canon characterization and live out their own fantasies about characters and relationships. so Olicity babies are OK in fan fics. However, I do think that the actual writers have to respect their characters’ back story and characterization as it has been built up over the course of the series, as well as Real Life psychological verisimilitude, at least if they take any pride in their work. They cannot more or less consistently portray their main hero as a man who has been through hell and back, and who has been forced by circumstances to become a ruthless killer and torturer, and then try to fit him into a cutesy, romcom/domestic scenario, where we’re supposed to forget that he was once a serial killer/PTSD victim, in order to fulfill the head canons and fantasies of a shipper fanbase.

    I’m not talking about all Olicity fans of course, but I do feel that there are SOME fans don’t seem to care about backstory and characterization as long as they get to see their head canons on screen. I know that many Olicity fans acknowledge that Oliver is decidedly darker and more problematic than the standard romance novel hero. However, I still get the feeling that much of the discourse surrounding Olicity (metas, fan fics etc) nevertheless view the Oliver/Felicity relationship through the prism of standard romance novel tropes, and totally downplay the fact that Oliver has killed at least a hundred people. And even if they acknowledge that Oliver is messed-up and pretty unfit to become a husband (let alone a father!), they often apply another very prevalent romance novel trope, namely the healing power of an exceptional woman (namely Felicity) and a pure love that will cure the tortured hero’s (man)pain and allow him to live happily ever after.


    As for your reference to real world men who have killed....there is a difference between being a soldier, and adopting the role of a vigilante who is judge, jury and executioner. You might even say that warfare is a morally and legally sanctioned killing, since you're doing it for the greater good (defending your country, freedom etc). Furthermore, in many cases (e.g. in the two World Wars) many of the men who went to war were conscripted, i.e forced against their will to participate in the killing. And when these soldiers were at the front ("in country" as the Vietnam veterans called it), it was often either a question of kill or be killed. On the other hand, Oliver/the Hood/GA seeks out his victims, and kills them in order to execute his own vigilante brand of justice. And the fact that he mainly eliminates "bad guys" (or their body guards!) or blows up civilian Russians (whose deaths apparently don't matter because they're foreigners!) doesn't make his killings any more justified from a Real World POV. Furthermore, in Real Life love doesn’t cure PTSD, and someone who (like Oliver) has killed tens of people in cold blood will have to live with the consequences for the rest of his life. And if he able to just forget what he has done and enter into some kind of domestic bliss without any problems, he is a psychopath who should not really be involved with anyone.

    Anyway, to return to the issue to Real World standards and how they can be applied to "Arrow". I honestly don't think that any Real World woman would knowingly get involved with a serial killer, let alone marry him and have children with him. I’m fully aware that ”Arrow” is a superhero fantasy/melodrama, and that we shouldn’t apply Real World standards on fictional relationships. However, I’m baffled that so many Olicity fans will loudly berate Oliver for not telling Felicity about his son, but apparently have no problems with Felicity loving and marrying someone who is willing to kill and torture to achieve his goals. In the first case I think they DO apply Real World standards, while completely ignoring them when it comes to much more serious issues and obstacles for a normal and harmonic relationship.

    Of course, the show itself ignores and side-steps these issues most of the time, which makes you wonder why they decided to give Oliver this brutal, lethal characterization in the first place. Diggle (or the newbies) will occasionally bring up Oliver’s killings/methods, but these mentions seem more like a half-assed way of acknowledging the problems, while still presenting Oliver as this handsome, jacked, tortured but noble hero, who we’re all supposed to root for. I actually don’t have a problem with that, since most of the comic book ”heroes” are messed-up and use brute force. I just happen to think that shows like ”Daredevil” and ”Jessica Jones” managed to balance the darkness of their heroes with their more human side better than ”Arrow” has done lately, maybe because they portrayed their romantic relationships as pretty complex and messed up as well (Matt with Electra, Jessica with Luke).

    Ever since Olicity became a thing, we have this IMHO jarring discrepancy between a dark hero and his dark back story, and a romantic relationship that actually over-exploits and exaggerates the most anachronistic and (in my humble opinion, of course) banal and sugary romcom/young adult novel tropes. It might be that viewers like to see opposites attract and mesh, but to me Felicity and Oliver are just too different (when it comes to life experiences and idiosyncrasies) to feel real and believable as a couple. It’s as if the writers have to downplay and diminish the extent of Oliver’s PTSD /dark side in order to make him fit into this marriage plot scenario that they started in season four, and in my eyes this has also diminished him as a character.

    Finally, as you say yourself, good drama isn’t about happy endings and babies….the only genres where this kind of domestic settings work are sitcoms involving families. There is a reason why the fairy tale ”happily ever after” comes at the very end….it’s not what the listeners/readers are interested in. The same goes for serialized television, especially action/adventure series. The romance/relationship aspect should serve the story and the characterization as a whole, rather than being its raison d’être. Oliver enjoying a happy domestic life and having babies further on down the line might be a nice subject for fan fiction, but it’s not something that adds to the on screen Oliver and his vigilante story. I guess that’s why I found the ”100 Olicity Wishes” that were tweeted out during hiatus so odd, because they all concerned romantic moments that had nothing to do with the actual vigilante story, or with the on screen Oliver Queen….and to my mind the future Olicity babies belong in the same category. They are AU fantasies about how Oliver and Felicity’s life would have been if they had been real people (without all the baggage that the fictional characters have). I know that Diggle has a child, but he’s a side character, and baby Sara only appeared for a few minutes of screen time. It’s a different thing with a titular hero. I’m not saying that Oliver can’t have a human side, but that aspect has to be woven into the action, and a baby at the Casa Queen/Smoak just cannot be shoehorned into the ongoing vigilante story.
    Last edited by evaba; 03-25-2017 at 10:00 AM.

  13. #13
    Forum Whiz Amarice's Avatar
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    Excellent post, evaba. May I only add two cents to that? First:

    Quote Originally Posted by evaba View Post
    I was actually not referring to fan fics (because I don't read them), but to tweets and tumblr blogs where it is suggested that Olicity should have their babies ON SCREEN soon. So it's not really a prospective/"what if" scenario, but something that some fans are dreaming of seeing on the actual show next season (or if "Arrow" gets a seventh season, as the happy ending of the series). And if you check the producers'/writers' twitter feeds, you'll see clamors for Olicity babies there as well. To me that amounts to imposing a fan fic AU scenario on the actual writing, in a way that clashes with everything that we have learned about Oliver this season. Not only has he reverted to his season one "I have no qualms about killing if it's necessary" mode, but in ”Kapushion” he confessed that he actually ENJOYED killing not so many years ago, and that he hid his bloodlust beneath the pretext of his noble mission (i.e. "When I put on the hood, I'm allowed to kill").

    Given this, I think it would be totally out of character to present/imagine Oliver as a domesticated happy father, running out to buy diapers for his lovely triplets and in general living a comfy suburban life with wifey Felicity. Of course, fan fics ARE alternative universes where the writers can take many liberties with the on screen canon characterization and live out their own fantasies about characters and relationships. so Olicity babies are OK in fan fics. However, I do think that the actual writers have to respect their characters’ back story and characterization as it has been built up over the course of the series, as well as Real Life psychological verisimilitude, at least if they take any pride in their work. They cannot more or less consistently portray their main hero as a man who has been through hell and back, and who has been forced by circumstances to become a ruthless killer and torturer, and then try to fit him into a cutesy, romcom/domestic scenario, where we’re supposed to forget that he was once a serial killer/PTSD victim, in order to fulfill the head canons and fantasies of a shipper fanbase.
    I know that the general perception of fan fiction from people who don't read them is #screwcanon #screwlogic #itdoesn'thaveanysensebutIshipit! but in many cases it's the exact opposite. In my perception writing a fan fic is taking a theory or area I would want to see explored, or putting a character in a difficult situation, and actually writing this down instead of writing a post what if. It's really not that different from our long exchanges and nitpicking. And you don't take liberty of changing the character's traits to fit your story (really good point about the actual writers in the show downplaying Oliver's PTSD and issues to fit him into the perfect pairing) you pick up all the details, you add elements when you have no data in the casnon, then you translate one medium to another. "Arrow" is not a book what would make wiritng a fic a bit easier - "Arrow" is a tv show and for me it was really hard to find this characters. To make them speak and act as I see and hear them in the show. It took me three months to actually start writing my first story. I had at least twelve different beginnings. And it was in Polish, so making the character speak in the same manner but in different language - it was even harder. Now I write more fics for "Arrow" in English so at least I have no problem how to translate "a vigilante" (no Polish equvalent, lol). So writing fan fiction is planning, it's building a bigger picture out of scratch, it's constantly thinking: "How a character would act? How s/he would react when they found themselves in that situation? What would happen if? How it would end?".

    And also one very important thing that the "Real Writers" don't think to much nowadays. How to bring the character from point A to point B.

    Now the funny (? no, damn, it was not funny at all) thing is that I've written a fic about Oliver killing an innocent person a year before the show explored this trope. So I just got the same idea as the actual writers, but a little earlier.

    And why people write fan fiction? They are different reasons. But my is simple - when I really love universum, and the universum starts to disappoint me, like season 3 "Arrow" I do everything I can to save it. I like to write, and I don't feel ready to start writing original fiction. So for the time being I'm writing fics for fun. I don't need to aim for Olympics to enjoy particing archery, and it's exactly the same with fics. Also, when the universum is complete (like "Daredevil" for example) I feel almost zero need to write for it (unless I want Matt to meet Oliver to do some vigilantism together ) - the canon is almost perfect, it answers for most of my questions, shows almost all things I wanted to see, then I'm happy as the fan.

    Second:

    Quote Originally Posted by evaba View Post
    Anyway, to return to the issue to Real World standards and how they can be applied to "Arrow". I honestly don't think that any Real World woman would knowingly get involved with a serial killer, let alone marry him and have children with him. I’m fully aware that ”Arrow” is a superhero fantasy/melodrama, and that we shouldn’t apply Real World standards on fictional relationships. However, I’m baffled that so many Olicity fans will loudly berate Oliver for not telling Felicity about his son, but apparently have no problems with Felicity loving and marrying someone who is willing to kill and torture to achieve his goals. In the first case I think they DO apply Real World standards, while completely ignoring them when it comes to much more serious issues and obstacles for a normal and harmonic relationship.
    Actually there is quite a considerable number of women who are fascinated by serial killers. They write letters to them, they go see them in prison, some of them even marry them (and they didn't know them earlier) and is conjugal visits are allowed probably have children with them. So yeah, it does happen.

    Now someone point me one fics that would explore Olicity from this angle. I guess there is none and if it would be then crazy side of the fandom would tore the author apart, because "how dare!".

    BkWurm1 >>>-------------> I don't think that any relationship/character could contribute significantly to the viewership. I think that really visible boost in views can be caused for example by big events like crossovers. And I enjoy season 5 not because there was no Olicity, but because I've noticed the show improving in various areas. I would even risk a statement that if Olicity reunion would writen in a mature way I would roll with it. After the fair share of exchanging jokes about Olicitycalypse I'm mentally prepared. I think.

    Also, if you have some fics recommendation with Olicity (and Olicity babies) that treat the trope in a mature way I'm interested to read them. So far by accident I've read only one short miniature with Felicity who discovered that she is pregnant after her one-night stand with Oliver in Nanda Parbat. I liked that story, because she reacted in plausible way IMO - she was damn scared about the future, as any young woman in her situation would be I think.

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