View Poll Results: What did you think?

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  • 10 - Great

    5 45.45%
  • 9

    2 18.18%
  • 8

    1 9.09%
  • 7

    0 0%
  • 6

    0 0%
  • 5

    1 9.09%
  • 4

    0 0%
  • 3

    1 9.09%
  • 2

    0 0%
  • 1 - Oliver wasn't the only one being tortured this week.

    1 9.09%
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  1. #16
    Forum Whiz Amarice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    It has to be noted that Oliver said he "liked it" past tense, not current tense. I think he really was only lost and caught up in the power and effectiveness of killing at the height of his trauma at the start of season one, not that he ever has been someone that actually gets off on killing. Liking aspects of killing after spending five years fighting fir his life and constantly feeling powerless isn't the same as being like Dexter Morgan who all his life has to satiate his need to kill. Even if in he liked killing on some level at first in season one, he's not that person any more.
    That's interesting observation, haven't thought about that from this angle. The concept of turning Ollie into Punisher-type of a vigilante doesn't click with me well either.

    The way I saw it in season 1/2 and my general observation is that everything Oliver was doing as the Hood/the Arrow was his way to deal with his trauma. So he was trying to help others/save them from suffering to give some meaning to all awful things that has happened to him. What's more even in season 1 it wasn't like he was killing everyone who was in the vincinity of his bow's shooting range. He was even able to show mercy/restrain from killing.

    I really need to give more thoughts to that, because while the conclusion of 5x17 doesn't necessary contradict with what they have been setting in season 5 flashbacks, it still seems to contradict with seasons 1-3. So for example why Oliver was giving a chance bad guys (24 hours for Adam Hunt etc.)? To justify his doings? If he would kill only because he liked it he should go for killing shoots all the time then.

    Of course we can add to this another angle - Oliver being broken because he was forced to confess something under duress. It's also a traumatizing experience.
    Last edited by Amarice; 03-24-2017 at 04:14 AM.

  2. #17
    Forum Whiz Carmine-Infantino's Avatar
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    Apparently Felicity will be appearing on Legends next week as a superhero when the Legion of Doom use the Spear of Destiny to rewrite reality. The photos I saw have her in a purple costume, perhaps her hero name is The Purple Passion .... no wait maybe it's the purple fern.

  3. #18
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    As much as Chase would like Oliver and the rest of the city to believe that Oliver Queen the man he is currently is no different from the man he was in the flashbacks, I don't think he (or any of us) can assume that he hasn't changed a bit. I think where fans differ is to what degree he has changed. I've never believed that Oliver could simply erase the darkness that five years in hell imbued in him -- at best with time, a core of family and friends, and with therapy he might be able to keep it at bay or just reduce it to a manageable size.

    I think TPTB may be hammering home the 'Oliver kills again' point a bit too heavily. I can see why -- they want to make parallels with Oliver's S1 Hood persona when he dropped bodies with barely a thought. The Oliver who left the S4 finale accepted killing as an option as a last resort, but S5 regressed this a bit too much in the current timeline. He settled on a clearer line in the sand by end of S4, but the lines have blurred again. This leaves the impression that he's bloodthirsty again. I don't feel he is just like the Hood now, he is not the same man he was five years ago -- but their blurring his kill/no kill lines sadly create this impression.

    I have no problem seeing Flashback Oliver take a step deep into that darkness in this episode as it was frankly about time he did, with his S1 era fast approaching. And I don't feel that the thrill or rush in killing was his sole motivation when he offed bad guys in S1, despite what Chase and even Oliver himself state. I'm sure some of his S1 kills were because he "liked" it, but not all of them were. Some of them may be viewed as committing a small evil to prevent a larger evil, viewed through the skewered lens of S1 Hood.

    As for Oliver's confession, as much as it may ring true, consider that it was made under duress. Oliver was tortured. How much if it is truth and how much of it is Oliver saying what Chase wants to hear.

    I think Chase could have convinced Oliver that Diggle had triplets at that point and he would readily agree.

  4. #19
    Posting Pro DoubleDevil's Avatar
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    Comparing season 1 Arrow to Punisher I find funny. If anything season 1 Oliver Queen was at best Frank Castle light and what makes that so funny is that as dark and brutal as Punisher is, he's already Executioner light. The dark and disturbing paths taken on shows like Arrow (regardless of how gritty they may be) are mere glimpses of where those paths actually can go.
    Last edited by DoubleDevil; 03-24-2017 at 03:46 AM.

  5. #20
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    It's always going to be a CW version of "darkness" aka their dark coffee will never be served without cream and sugar. They could never approach levels of darkness that Netflix or more adult cable channels can, simply because they don't have the parameters to go there. And I don't expect them to. We'd never see what FB Oliver did to that guy whereas on HBO they'd have shown him actually do it. I think alluding to it and not showing it can be just as harrowing and that scene largely worked for me.

    They went as dark as they could go within CW-airing-at-8p parameters, which compared to what we just saw on The Flash last ep, is plenty dark. If Prometheus pulled this stuff on, say, Barry or Kara (without powers, let's get that off the table first) ... they wouldn't be singing and dancing. No, they'd be losing all bladder control.

    Barring some last minute botch up of Prometheus' arc, he could still take the crown as the most formidable antagonist Oliver has ever tangled with.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    It's always going to be a CW version of "darkness" aka their dark coffee will never be served without cream and sugar. They could never approach levels of darkness that Netflix or more adult cable channels can, simply because they don't have the parameters to go there. And I don't expect them to. We'd never see what FB Oliver did to that guy whereas on HBO they'd have shown him actually do it. I think alluding to it and not showing it can be just as harrowing and that scene largely worked for me.

    They went as dark as they could go within CW-airing-at-8p parameters, which compared to what we just saw on The Flash last ep, is plenty dark. If Prometheus pulled this stuff on, say, Barry or Kara (without powers, let's get that off the table first) ... they wouldn't be singing and dancing. No, they'd be losing all bladder control.

    Barring some last minute botch up of Prometheus' arc, he could still take the crown as the most formidable antagonist Oliver has ever tangled with.
    I don't think it's only the degree of explicitness (whether it pertains to sex or violence) that distinguishes the Berlanti CW shows from the Netflix Marvel shows. It's also the overall writing, and the fact that the Marvel writers trust the viewers (and their attention span/intelligence!) enough to give their heroes a more complex character portrayal. For example, I don't think we'll ever see a scene like the Daredevil graveyard scene on "Arrow", the one where Frank pours his heart out in a six-minute, almost theatrical monologue, while Matt just sits silently and listens. Even the most emotionally intense scenes on "Arrow" are pretty swift, as if the writers are afraid that the viewers won't be able to pay attention for a longer stretch of time....or that the actors won't be able to deliver this type of scenes (which is think could be a pertinent factor in some cases).

    I still enjoy "Arrow", and I think the actors have put in some really good performances over the seasons....I just feel that there is a difference in the quality of the writing/acting between the two types of superhero shows, which is unrelated to the network-allowed levels of goriness or raw violence. The Frank Castle storyline was not only raw and bloody when it comes to the action, it also had an emotional rawness that went quite far beyond anything "Arrow"/Stephen Amell have ever delivered, even at their best. The only Marvel show that has really disappointed me (so far, at least) is "Ironfist", whose main hero/storyline I find more bland and boring than season one Oliver.
    Last edited by evaba; 03-24-2017 at 09:20 AM.

  7. #22
    Posting Pro DoubleDevil's Avatar
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    I wasn't comparing DC/CW dark and gritty to Marvel/Netflix rather the Character Oliver Queen as portrayed in season 1 to nearly any iteration of Frank Castle, comicbook, movie or tv. Regardless how dark Berlanti's version goes it'll never be as dark as Frank Castle and likewise Frank Castle (because of the target audience) will never be as dark as Mack Bolan (even though Frank was a direct rip off). Each may have a disturbing scene or alluded to now and then but those are enviromental aspects, they aren't necessarily a part of the character themselves.

  8. #23
    Forum Whiz Amarice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    As much as Chase would like Oliver and the rest of the city to believe that Oliver Queen the man he is currently is no different from the man he was in the flashbacks, I don't think he (or any of us) can assume that he hasn't changed a bit. I think where fans differ is to what degree he has changed. I've never believed that Oliver could simply erase the darkness that five years in hell imbued in him -- at best with time, a core of family and friends, and with therapy he might be able to keep it at bay or just reduce it to a manageable size.

    I think TPTB may be hammering home the 'Oliver kills again' point a bit too heavily. I can see why -- they want to make parallels with Oliver's S1 Hood persona when he dropped bodies with barely a thought. The Oliver who left the S4 finale accepted killing as an option as a last resort, but S5 regressed this a bit too much in the current timeline. He settled on a clearer line in the sand by end of S4, but the lines have blurred again. This leaves the impression that he's bloodthirsty again. I don't feel he is just like the Hood now, he is not the same man he was five years ago -- but their blurring his kill/no kill lines sadly create this impression.

    I have no problem seeing Flashback Oliver take a step deep into that darkness in this episode as it was frankly about time he did, with his S1 era fast approaching. And I don't feel that the thrill or rush in killing was his sole motivation when he offed bad guys in S1, despite what Chase and even Oliver himself state. I'm sure some of his S1 kills were because he "liked" it, but not all of them were. Some of them may be viewed as committing a small evil to prevent a larger evil, viewed through the skewered lens of S1 Hood.

    As for Oliver's confession, as much as it may ring true, consider that it was made under duress. Oliver was tortured. How much if it is truth and how much of it is Oliver saying what Chase wants to hear.

    I think Chase could have convinced Oliver that Diggle had triplets at that point and he would readily agree.
    Agree with all of that. And crap, you made me realise that I used wrong word in my previous post. x_x Of course I meant duress not distress.

    There were some kills in season 1 that wasn't necessary, so we can say that with those Oliver went overboard. Justin Claybourne and his men - for me it's pretty clear that they died because they found themselves on the receiving end of Oliver's anger. Another example would be Leo Muller (that arm dealer from 1x05). Doctor Webb - he died because Oliver wanted/needed to protect his identity. He probably wasn't a totally bad guy. But I saw it rather as a cold calculation on Oliver's side that a kill he made because he "likes to kill". In the same episode Oliver showed mercy to Count Vertigo. He killed him later on not for pleasure of kill, but because he was threatening his friend. (Some will see there the beginning of Olicity, whatever.)

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDevil View Post
    Comparing season 1 Arrow to Punisher I find funny. If anything season 1 Oliver Queen was at best Frank Castle light and what makes that so funny is that as dark and brutal as Punisher is, he's already Executioner light. The dark and disturbing paths taken on shows like Arrow (regardless of how gritty they may be) are mere glimpses of where those paths actually can go.
    Actually I was writting about season 5 flashbacks. Oliver skins there a guy alive (in 5x17) and seems to be on a killing spree in multiple episodes. In season 1 he was never on this level.

    Quite true that "Arrow" as the show never really approached Punisher's level of darkness and brutality. What I meant that it got as close as it could. It made me feel uneasy as the viewer a few times, but I wouldn't exactly compare it to Netflix (I still remember vividly some scenes from "Daredevil" season 1 & 2 and they give me creeps).

    evaba >>>---------------> Generally I agree with you. Berlanti CW shows even at their best are still B/B+ shows. They're scripted differently, shot differently, they have actors with different capabilities & skills. Season 5 dwells again into tropes I didn't expect to see in "Arrow" any more, but I think that it would be short lasted and the outcome of 5x17, Oliver's inner struggle won't be explored as deeply as for example inner struggles of Matt. Matt goes to the priest to talk about his doubts and discovers eventually that he can't be both a vigilante and a lawyer. Oliver won't go to Doctor Pressnall to talk about his mental problems and even if he eventually will lose his post as the Mayor (or if he will be outed as the Green Arrow) those won't be the scenes/subplots that will be deep and memorable, and will stick in your mind like the graveyard scene with Frank.

    I've been watching "Iron Fist", I'm in the middle of the season. It's not as good as "DD" and "JJ" but I find it quite enjoyable. And maybe they finally explain that whole mess with The Hand. It's not as boring as "Luke Cage" was for me. I was very worried about the fate of the colleague of Doctor Pressnall, but (a sigh of relief) he survived even despite he believed Danny. I'm positively surprised. And I liked also one of my favorite characters from other Netflix show making an apperance in episode 3. (Yes, I have a thing for this type of characters apparently.)

  9. #24
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    I've been watching "Iron Fist", I'm in the middle of the season. It's not as good as "DD" and "JJ" but I find it quite enjoyable. And maybe they finally explain that whole mess with The Hand. It's not as boring as "Luke Cage" was for me. I was very worried about the fate of the colleague of Doctor Pressnall, but (a sigh of relief) he survived even despite he believed Danny. I'm positively surprised. And I liked also one of my favorite characters from other Netflix show making an apperance in episode 3. (Yes, I have a thing for this type of characters apparently.)
    I have only watched three episodes of "Iron Fist" so far, so maybe I shouldn't pass judgment yet. I just feel that Finn Jones is miscast for the role, both when it comes to physicality and ability to look good when he's fighting and when it comes to his portrayal of Danny Rand. I know that all the leads on the superhero shows use stunt doubles, but I find SA much more convincing than FJ. His acting is also pretty bland overall, and it makes it hard for me to engage myself in his storyline/troubles.

    However, I do find his scheming relatives interesting, and maybe that will be the thing that keeps me hooked, just like the side-characters on "Luke Cage" did (because TBH Mike Coulter is pretty lackluster in comparison to Mahershala Ali and all the other charismatic supporting actors!). So, I'm sure that I will finish the series when I have time to binge.

  10. #25
    Forum Whiz Amarice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evaba View Post
    I have only watched three episodes of "Iron Fist" so far, so maybe I shouldn't pass judgment yet. I just feel that Finn Jones is miscast for the role, both when it comes to physicality and ability to look good when he's fighting and when it comes to his portrayal of Danny Rand. I know that all the leads on the superhero shows use stunt doubles, but I find SA much more convincing than FJ. His acting is also pretty bland overall, and it makes it hard for me to engage myself in his storyline/troubles.

    However, I do find his scheming relatives interesting, and maybe that will be the thing that keeps me hooked, just like the side-characters on "Luke Cage" did (because TBH Mike Coulter is pretty lackluster in comparison to Mahershala Ali and all the other charismatic supporting actors!). So, I'm sure that I will finish the series when I have time to binge.
    Faramir leaves everyone far behind when it comes to acting skills. (Srsly, for two episodes I was wondering why THIS face looks familiar, then I looked at the actor's name and everything became clear). I know nothing about comic Danny Rand, had zero expectations about their version of Iron Fist so I'll roll with everything they're showing as long as it's not superboring. "Iron Fist" might be not as enganging as "Daredevil" and "Jessica Jones" but still Netflix offers a certain level of quality. I like difficult themes so I liked the episode with the psychiatric hospital - and actually they offered a plausible explanation [SPOILER] why the Doctor, while he believed that Danny is indeed Danny, thought also that he imagines himself to be a superhero with powers. The only thing that was typical film/tv shows thing to do was the Doctor coming up with a diagnosis in 5 minutes about specyfic disorder. In reality it might takes months before any diagnosis is formed. Anyway, I hope that nothing bad will happen to that Doctor, since I got to like him, and all characters I like usually end up bad. :/[/SPOILER]

  11. #26
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evaba View Post
    I don't think it's only the degree of explicitness (whether it pertains to sex or violence) that distinguishes the Berlanti CW shows from the Netflix Marvel shows. It's also the overall writing, and the fact that the Marvel writers trust the viewers (and their attention span/intelligence!) enough to give their heroes a more complex character portrayal.
    I was referring to only how Oliver's darkness was portrayed in S5. In terms of Arrow, it was likely its darkest episode to date. I think the Chase - Oliver scenes could have been better if they didn't have to cut away to flashbacks all the time. An editing issue I had. If they strung their scenes together, no flashback interruptions, they would look like a dialogue in a one-act play. A CW play, mind you, but a play nonetheless

    Story and character obviously matter in these things and, while Arrow has faltered on these fronts esp. in S4, I feel that S5 has made considerable effort in repairing some of the damage wrought by catering to CW tone, melodramatic fan service, etc. I don't feel their CW parameters are the only factor in limiting what they can do (I want to clear that up first, I've long had issues with some the writing choices on these series), but at the same time it is a factor in restricting what they can do or not. Netflix and HBO may have better writing and talents but they also have a much longer leash creatively than Arrow or Flash (or AoS or Gotham) ever could.

    Arrow may be pushing the envelope on darkness for a CW show, but I've never expected them to live up to what a GoT or a Sons of Anarchy or these Netflix shows would do with similar material. Those shows may have better people working on them, but they also have the leeway CW's shows simply don't have or could ever hope to have. Netflix and the premium cable network's gourmet burger will always beat CW's McDonald's burger in this regard.

    For S5 Arrow we are at least getting that more deluxe custom burger at McD's that the server makes for you. Still McD's, but better than the standard fare we're getting in the rest of the Berlantiverse this year. It's almost unfair to compare S5's second half with those of its TV cousins. Josh's performance plays a large role in this, but the writing too has improved depending on the eps. Still not perfect but Arrow has had a pretty good run these past few eps. that even the upcoming fan service Olicity ep will not be enough to downgrade S5 in comparison to the past two seasons. They'd have to completely mess up the landing of Prometheus' arc to ruin it.

    I'm actually glad you brought up Iron Fist. With its meh reviews and apparently the lead is not so convincing, it appears the Marvel bubble is starting to burst and they're experiencing what happens when you dilute the formula one series too many. Not unlike what is happening now in the Berlantiverse. Maybe the era of expanding the universe should take a breather.

    I never got why some fans wanted Arrow to be more like Flash in years past. It looked like a proxy war between Superman's light/hope v. Batman's dark/cynical. Why can't Flash own his space in the world and Arrow his own? Why must one be like the other? At least we don't hear so much about Flash or LoT or SG being the best. None of them could make such a claim now. I would put the past three eps of Arrow against anything they've churned out this season.

    Considering how Flash is now, I'm glad Arrow took a 'screw this, we're doubling down on dark 'n gritty' approach this season. Arrow's weakest seasons were when it wasn't true to itself, its strongest when it was.

  12. #27
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
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    I don't disagree with Arrow needing to be a dark show, because that's what brought it to the dance. However, I don't think it's at that place. Seasons 1 and 2 had a very specific tone with only limited flactuations. These flactuations are much more noticeable this season. For example, a lot of times Curtis' "funny" lines just have no place in an episode or even the scene they are said at. Truth be told, the character has no place in the show at all. Yes, seasons 1 and 2 had Felicity's brand of humor, but it was more subtle than Curtis'. On the other side of the spectrum, in their attempts to resemble season 1, they brought back Oliver's killing tendencies. The problem with that decision is that "killer Oliver" no longer serves the same narrative he did in season 1. The expectation that season was to see how Oliver would grow out of that phase and become the iconic hero that he should be. Not to mention that his killing spree was indeed something that was attributed to him wanting to complete the mission at any cost. 5 years later, Oliver has regressed to killing again and we come to find out that it's because he gets a kick out of it (something far more disturbing than the logic behind his season 1 actions). Is it really worth it to get a dark and gritty season if it means that the titular character is thrown under the bus like this? Season 4 had a multitude of flaws. Portraying Oliver in a more positive light (as a hero, not a cook!) wasn't one of them. And it's the one thing Season 5 shouldn't have messed with.

    My 2 cents regarding the Netflix comparisons is that it's hard to do that when one show's season lasts 13 episodes and the other's lasts 23. For me, the budget and latitude differencies are insignificant. You don't need a huge budget or GoT's type of leeway to tell a good story. When it comes to storytelling, Marvel's Netflix shows come across better than any Berlanti show because they are more slick and carry far less fat around. If we ever get to see a 13-episode season for Arrow or Flash (which should definitely happen, by the way), then we could have better grounds for comparison.
    Last edited by costas22; 03-24-2017 at 11:14 AM.

  13. #28
    Posting Pro DoubleDevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evaba View Post
    I have only watched three episodes of "Iron Fist" so far, so maybe I shouldn't pass judgment yet. I just feel that Finn Jones is miscast for the role, both when it comes to physicality and ability to look good when he's fighting and when it comes to his portrayal of Danny Rand. I know that all the leads on the superhero shows use stunt doubles, but I find SA much more convincing than FJ. His acting is also pretty bland overall, and it makes it hard for me to engage myself in his storyline/troubles.

    However, I do find his scheming relatives interesting, and maybe that will be the thing that keeps me hooked, just like the side-characters on "Luke Cage" did (because TBH Mike Coulter is pretty lackluster in comparison to Mahershala Ali and all the other charismatic supporting actors!). So, I'm sure that I will finish the series when I have time to binge.
    Is it Mike Coulter or the character Luke Cage that is lackluster? Let's not forget that Luke Cage wants to keep his head down and not draw any attention to himself, even when he's trying to get Cottonmouth's attention it's still somewhat subdued. Sure people are beginning to recognize him but he still acts as if he doesn't want the recognition. The character has potential to be compelling but I don't see that currently in the shows. Character wise I found Cottonmouth more compelling than Diamondback but acting wise I preferred Diamondback over Cottonmouth.
    Last edited by DoubleDevil; 03-24-2017 at 11:56 AM.

  14. #29
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    5 years later, Oliver has regressed to killing again and we come to find out that it's because he gets a kick out of it (something far more disturbing than the logic behind his season 1 actions). Is it really worth it to get a dark and gritty season if it means that the titular character is thrown under the bus like this? Season 4 had a multitude of flaws. Portraying Oliver in a more positive light (as a hero, not a cook!) wasn't one of them. And it's the one thing Season 5 shouldn't have messed with.
    I also had issues with S5 Oliver being more wanton in his killing, without enough of the context as you pointed out in S1 with Hood's extreme methods.

    But we are also giving Chase's view of it more weight than it merits. Maybe there is some truth to Chase's notion that Oliver hasn't been honest with himself and some of his bloodied deeds were not out of mission reasons but for more the visceral thrill of it. But the idea he hasn't changed at all and is only a thrill-killer is the unfortunate impression that doesn't fit into what we've seen in S4. We've seen Oliver show restraint, choose not to kill until his hand was forced by Darhk (and his rage mode when Felicity was shot), be a more balanced hero, ... so I feel Oliver still has those limits despite Chase's belief and Oliver's admission, but the show hasn't done a good job of reminding us of them in its S5 back to basics storytelling. Maybe by season finale?

    I also feel that physical pain is less of an issue with Oliver here than psychological/emotional pain. Oliver will heal his body, but his mind/soul has been broken to the point he wants to give it all up. It'll be how Oliver convinces the team, the city and us as viewers that he's not the monster Chase has made him out to be that will determine if his character's reputation comes out of this whole or not

    While Oliver's GA brand is certainly tarnished, I don't know if it's beyond repair until at least the finale plays out.

  15. #30
    Forum Whiz Amarice's Avatar
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    Costas22, President Luthor >>>---------> You pretty much covered the same doubts I'm having about this reveal and which I couldn't express properly. My brain switched off, eh, too much work this week.

    Oliver really went overboard in season 5, what contradicts with season 1/2. I don't know if we are supposed to think that because he likes killing he kept relapsing to it a few times over the course of the show, or what? I'm confused what they're trying to sell and if I'm buying this.

    Ok, I'll write it for 257 time - it's high time to bring back Doctor Pressnall so she could explain all of this.

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