View Poll Results: What did you think?

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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    It's really not the same thing at all.
    I've noticed people mention that Felicity is now lying to Oliver, but the main difference is that he was lying to her when they were in a relationship and now she's lying to him when they're not. If Oliver really wanted to figure out what she was up to he wouldn't have much trouble finding out. Both Curtis and Rory have a good idea of what she's doing.

  2. #17
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smllvllfn View Post
    I've noticed people mention that Felicity is now lying to Oliver, but the main difference is that he was lying to her when they were in a relationship and now she's lying to him when they're not. If Oliver really wanted to figure out what she was up to he wouldn't have much trouble finding out. Both Curtis and Rory have a good idea of what she's doing.
    Actually Felicity has been critical of Oliver keeping secrets even when they weren't in a relationship. About his experiences on the island, for example. Her general stance on the show until now is that she doesn't like it when people keep secrets. Except for her mother of course. She had no problem forgiving Donna straight away after it was revealed that she sabotaged Felicity's relationship with her father by lying that he abandoned her..
    Last edited by costas22; 03-16-2017 at 10:27 AM.

  3. #18
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    I don't think we'll see anything substantial with Diggle (or Thea for that matter) until late this season, the finale or even the S6 premiere. With his prison arc over, Diggle is left with pep talks, pinch-hitting when they need a body in the field or a van on the street, and throwaway lines about Lyla and son. More than a few veteran characters are running low on fuel. The time to consider either doubling down on them or cutting bait is, if not now, then soon on the horizon. I don't know what more is left storywise for them.

    Evelyn being a no-show is odd, but I can't say I missed her in this ep. The show did so little to develop her, so like Curtis' ex Paul, I'm indifferent when they are absent. They've killed two Canaries on this show ... they may as well go for the hat trick and ice the third one.

  4. #19
    Forum Whiz Amarice's Avatar
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    Excellent, very intense episode. Adrian dropping his mask was just - wow. Josh Segarra was amazing. I really liked the scenes when he was face to face Oliver or Quentin and Rene, and they literally could do nothing. The fight GA vs Prometheus was great - without weapon, hand to hand, brutal. Got bad feeling once Adrian's wife appeared on the scene. Was sure he will murder her. Also - poor Pike. Another honest cop who ended up badly. :S I'm glad that Susan is okay, but nevertheless I'm afraid she won't make till the end of the season.

    Talia appearing in the real time was not much of surprise, as it was widely disussed in speculation section of the forum. It seems that everyone has daddy issues in this show. Still a lot of heavy angst, messing with Oliver head, and GA being in more and more difficult situation. Also a very timely reflection if people close to Oliver are next targets, or all the attachements are something that makes him stronger?

    Maybe I shouldn't but I chuckled when Adrian said that it's hard to keep track on Oliver's girlfriends. So true!

    I like Anatoly even more after making that Robin Hood reference. Also he is right. What is inside in Oliver is inside him. There is no monster or Oliver. And I think that discovering that truth is what will save him.

    A lot of great stuff. I ditched a point only for a scene with Oliver tearing apart the foundry - I don't like scenes where heroes destroy everything to show in how much distress they are.

    I wonder what consequences awaits Felicity for tangling with Helix. Also what exactly this organization is doing.

    There was also some fun nods to earlier episodes. Robin Hood is one reference, Oliver sliding on the ice and shooting the bow another (saw there a nod to 1x06), and of course laptop with bullet holes that nobody can salvage data from, lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    8.5/10. It's amazing to think that this is the same series that exactly one year ago gave us the horror show known as Broken Hearts. (sorry Amarice ).
    Nothing to be sorry about since that episode was not about Carrie. Also please acknowledge her heroism - she at least saved us from listening to Oliver's love declarations running for 5 minutes - this way it was barely 3.
    Last edited by Amarice; 03-16-2017 at 01:05 PM.

  5. #20
    Forum Regular Arrow_47's Avatar
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    9/10. I feel like my faithfulness in sticking with this show was richly rewarded. While I could nit-pick, I won't. To me the episode warrants nothing but positive comments simply because of how entertaining it was. In the end, that is what I'm looking for - good entertainment and escapism from the real world. Well Done MG.

  6. #21
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
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    Who's this "Evelyn" that you people are referring to?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amarice View Post
    Nothing to be sorry about since that episode was not about Carrie. Also please acknowledge her heroism - she at least saved us from listening to Oliver's love declarations running for 5 minutes - this way it was barely 3.
    True that! It was the Olicity stuff that dragged that episode down. I'm actually a fan of Amy's. It was nice to see that in her latest episode they gave her better material to work with.

  7. #22
    Forum Whiz Amarice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    Who's this "Evelyn" that you people are referring to?
    She was either hijacked by Flashpoint or Mandela effect. At this point I expect her body to be found in the bay at some point.

    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    True that! It was the Olicity stuff that dragged that episode down. I'm actually a fan of Amy's. It was nice to see that in her latest episode they gave her better material to work with.
    Yeah, she hadn't had much to do, but at least was in the action part. I need to work on pushing in my fanservice via Twitter. ;p as I think that an episode called "Cupid's holiday" (of course rip-off of "Harley's holiday" from Batman TAS) could be an interesting idea for Cupid-centric episode. It will never happen, but still, I can make a fanart with that. Amy or whoever maitains her Tweeter reblogs all Cupid related fanart - that's nice. Don't want to worry anyone but #WildCupid got some reblogs and likes. Might as well create a monster pairing...

  8. #23
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    I know it's unlikely to happen, but I would love for the writers to wrap up the Prometheus character this season while Talia gets to stick around as the main villain in season 6. Lexa Doig is just so commanding in the role. She continues to act circles around the other female actors on this show.

  9. #24
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    Another highlight of this ep is Adrian/Simon going to work as usual, knowing full well that Ollie and Co. are freaking out that Prometheus is right there --- and they could do squat about it. He even expected Rene to finish off a project for him, when all Rene wanted to do was hurt him badly. He owned them all. Like a boss.

    Some reviews are saying he could be the best Arrow villain since Deathstroke. I would go further than that. Unless the Prometheus arc inexplicably falters over the next few weeks, he might surpass Slade. This ep goes a long way in helping Chase pull ahead of the rest. He could fall into a temporal portal tomorrow and end up stuck on Earth 58 and he's still better as of 5x16 than Ra's and Darhk. Seeing how his plan unfolds will be icing on it, a victory lap even.

    I hope they have Doig on deck beyond just this season. She's a pro and it would be a waste if she checks out this season. Talia's gotta meet Nyssa at some point (Katrina Law wants this to happen!), wrap up any loose ends re: LOA, maybe Talia takes her father's place as Ra's, maybe even kill Malcolm, etc.

  10. #25
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    It was a brilliant episode no doubt. This dynamic with Chase/Prometheus, where he and Oliver know exactly who the other is but they still have to keep up pretenses publicly, which leaves Oliver and the team impotent was really...something. Its kinda akin to the present-day segments of the Season 2 episode 'The Promise' with Oliver and Slade at the Queen Mansion - albeit on a much larger scale.

    This thing with Helix is bound to end badly for Felicity. In a way, I see what Felicity has done as being the equivalent of what Oliver did when he joined the League of Assassins...EXCEPT that Oliver only joined the League to bring it down from the inside, whereas Felicity went into Helix eyes open knowing what they are and even getting a hint of how they're using her...and she's staying.

    Makes me wonder...there could be a great episode somewhere down the line where ARGUS targets Helix, and Lyla wants to bring Felicity in. Would lead to an interesting situation with Oliver and Diggle. Perhaps they're saving that for Season 6 though.

    The flashbacks were great. Anatoly predicting that Talia will one day be Oliver's downfall works on multiple level - not only because she eventually trains Prometheus, but because of all the ways in which the dual-identity has messed up Oliver.

    I'm REALLY looking forward to the next episode - which is reviving a grant 'Arrow' tradition that was abandoned last season - the flashback-centric episode. Also looking forward to the present-day scenes with Chase and Oliver in a cell. It seems next week will be giving us some good old Season 1 style action in the flashbacks, and loads of psychological depth in the present-day.

  11. #26
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanddragon939 View Post
    This thing with Helix is bound to end badly for Felicity. In a way, I see what Felicity has done as being the equivalent of what Oliver did when he joined the League of Assassins...EXCEPT that Oliver only joined the League to bring it down from the inside, whereas Felicity went into Helix eyes open knowing what they are and even getting a hint of how they're using her...and she's staying.

    Makes me wonder...there could be a great episode somewhere down the line where ARGUS targets Helix, and Lyla wants to bring Felicity in. Would lead to an interesting situation with Oliver and Diggle. Perhaps they're saving that for Season 6.
    Felicity will have to own the choices she's made. The time when she could have rationalized that Helix was a bunch of do-gooders has passed. Even Curtis picked up that some of the stuff she's doing is illegal. I'm bracing myself for the likelihood that Oliver and Co. only give her a slap on the wrist at the end of it, but maybe some ARGUS entanglements in S6 might be a way to show the fallout, esp if Lyla and Team Arrow have differing agendas. One scenario I've thought is they do a Bourne thing ... her hacking is "worse than Snowden" and all gov't agencies including ARGUS are fanning out hit squads to terminate the mystery hacker. Maybe one of the squads finds the Helix lair and turns all but Felicity and Alena into lead pin cushions, and they're on the run. Diggle would be in a bind if Lyla doesn't see eye to eye.

    This ep highlights the best of what Arrow can do ... when they stick to story first. They also made a great call in casting Josh, who made this season his calling card. This ep was his mic drop.

  12. #27
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    While I don't expect them to push the envelope with Felicity's 'dark' turn, the idea that there will be no blow back on her is unfathomable. There is a bit of a do as I say, but not as I do here with Felicity.

    At the very least, she won't be able to turn around and say "But you didn't give me a chance to explain!". Because Oliver just did. In this episode. She chose not to.

    There will probably be debates about whether concealing the truth is the same as lying, but they are the same in my books. Even if she blows up Helix and saves the world (a likely scenario), she kept secrets from the team. I'm expecting some fallout from this, but as I've said it'll be decaf strength fallout, not dark roast.
    Like the other poster mentioned, the reason why what Felicity is doing isn't comparable to what Oliver did is because they aren't about to get married. They don't have that kind of relationship. She's not obligated to tell him. Her secret doesn't withhold key personal data about her past and future that a soon to be husband should know. As pointed out by Oliver, she's not even his employee so she's not accountable to him. Not even about her time when she's helping the team. She works with him and right now, that's it and their relationship is to the point were Felicity even looked surprised that Oliver would be worried about her actions.

    But back to her secret. It's not very secret. He knows she's keeping something from him and she asked him to trust her about what she's doing because at that moment, it wasn't the right time to get into. She actually agreed that he was right about keeping secrets not turning out well and agreed to tell him, only that right then wasn't the time, likely because they were in the middle of dealing with rescuing Susan and taking down Prometheus -- only now Oliver got kidnapped so she can't even tell him about Helix.

    But again, while what Felicity is doing with Helix can be comparable to other times when Oliver has gone it alone or kept info or contacts to himself, what she's doing right now isn't at all the same as Oliver lying about a very important personal matter to the woman about to be his wife.

    I have no problem if the goal of the show is to make Felicity more sympathetic to Oliver's habit of closing in on himself and trying to solve a problem on his own when it's Team related business, but so far there has been nothing with Pandora or Helix that puts it on the same level as Oliver' s Baby Mama Drama lie.


    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    Actually Felicity has been critical of Oliver keeping secrets even when they weren't in a relationship. About his experiences on the island, for example. Her general stance on the show until now is that she doesn't like it when people keep secrets. Except for her mother of course. She had no problem forgiving Donna straight away after it was revealed that she sabotaged Felicity's relationship with her father by lying that he abandoned her..
    I don't agree that Felicity has been set up as someone that hates all secrets. She's been critical of Oliver keeping important stuff from the team (like his plan to pretend to kill them) and rightly so since he needed them to actually take out the LoA. She hasn't though ever forced Oliver to tell her stuff about his five years away. She even mentioned this season he never talks Russia, and not as an accusation, more in surprise that he was opening up. And she's always forgave him for the secrets and the lies when it was mission based. But she broke up with him when she felt she could trust him on a personal level. Yes, she also then lashed out and lumped any tendency to go it alone and keep secrets in with the reason for the break up, but before the end of last season rolled around she already walked that back and said she'd been angry and didn't believe he couldn't ever change. But the trust on a personal level needed to be in a relationship with him was still gone.

    I want them to get back together so I want her to find that she can trust him on that level again, but I can't see how her keeping secrets about a shady organization she's working with to help the team is anything like Oliver lying about having a son because the kid's mom was being a witch about it and wanted him to suffer. (To which Oliver should have just lied to Samantha about not telling Felicity, not the other way around.)

    Quote Originally Posted by sanddragon939 View Post

    This thing with Helix is bound to end badly for Felicity. In a way, I see what Felicity has done as being the equivalent of what Oliver did when he joined the League of Assassins...EXCEPT that Oliver only joined the League to bring it down from the inside, whereas Felicity went into Helix eyes open knowing what they are and even getting a hint of how they're using her...and she's staying.
    To be fair, she's only been involved with Pandora and Helix in order to save lives and help others. Pandora was just a cache of info from which she found a way to save Diggle and later blackmail a Russian bad guy into giving her access to a site that led her to a nuclear bomb. Information is not that same as a league of ninja killers.

    At the end of 515 after Oliver praised the team for being there as back up when he needed them most, Felicity decided to join Helix so the team would have even more resources and she'd be better back up. She says as much. So at least allow her to have noble reasons for her actions.

    Then in the span of a day or two depending on the timing of the episode, Felicity went from thinking Helix was a small but skilled group of hacktivists to realizing it was much larger in scope and power, probably too powerful, but she at this point doesn't actually know that they are doing anything so very wrong. I mean, everything Felicity does for Team Arrow is illegal so Curtis freaking out about over hacking some drones doesn't prove anything definitive. She hacked nukes last season and saved most of the world. Hacking in itself isn't by Arrow standards proof of evil.

    Of course since this is a TV show we know this is going to end badly and I'd agree that Felicity should have been more wary of them and their level of power, but since she's seen their scope, she's been busy trying to explose Chase and save Susan. And Oliver even says he didn't care how she got the info on Chase being an alias.

    She at that point didn't know what they wanted the drones for, but she'd at least convinced herself Helix was a force for good. So she trades what seems like a small thing for finding Susan.

    And now Oliver is gone and she's ready to do anything to save him. So now, she's at the point where she's not even trying to ask questions about the organization but she still doesn't have any proof that what they will want her to do will be bad. I mean, I'm not sure she'd care right now if it meant saving Oliver, but that's the dark place she'll go to and have to grapple with.

    I do think she's going to have to face what her recklessness and vanity will lead her to do and I do think they could be some good parallels made out of how far she'd be willing to go and the dark paths Oliver has walked and how the losses and pain led to desperation getting the better of him and thus resorting to go it alone in a secretive manner and hopefully also have him point out the better choices he realized he needed to make, but it still won't make it the same as lying about having a kid to your fiance.

    Felicity should have let others in about what she was doing and I'd go so far as to say it doesn't really make sense that she didn't since I don't recall any of them ever caring how she got her info before. Maybe she figured she'd make some contacts on her own like Oliver and Diggle had contacts of their own, like a secret weapon. Or maybe she wanted to draw her own lines over how much she was willing to risk (and how much power she was going to juggle.) Or maybe she suspects she's blinding herself to the truth but didn't want Oliver or Dig or Lyla to disillusion her about what Helix really was.

    Talking it out might have meant facing the truth but right now the only truth she wanted to face was how much Pandora and Helix was helping. But she has to come to the point of accepting that they ask too much and the cost of doing business that way is too high. And then she'll have to find another way to save the day. Cause that's what Team Arrow does.
    Last edited by BkWurm1; 03-17-2017 at 11:10 PM.

  13. #28
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    For myself, I'm not equating Felicity lying about Helix or Pandora as better/worse/same as Oliver's not telling Felicity about his son.

    It's not the nature or context of the lying/concealing the truth that is my issue here. The scale of "bad"ness, better/worse in comparing one to the other is debatable

    I'm merely dealing with the fact that there is a choice made to lie/not divulge the truth. On this basic tenet, they both dropped the ball: Oliver back in S4, Felicity right now.

    If we are talking about context, the circumstances of the baby mama drama come with their own set of parameters -- one of the those being their relationship as an engaged couple at the time. I know some fans were fine if Oliver didn't ever tell Felicity about William or took his sweet time to tell her, which I felt was not reasonable as each week passed and he dithered. The longer he waited to tell her, the more ridiculous it seemed. He was her fiance and this comes with obligations to confide in her (at some point) about having a son.

    But I did feel he did deserve some time to process this life-changing information on his own, and his Maury Povich-like nonsense in having Barry involved in it still doesn't invalidate that he was entitled to some time to digest the whole thing on his own -- before checking in with Felicity, Diggle or anyone else.

    To thine own self be true: Oliver had to come to terms with his newfound life-altering status as a father and had a right to do so. If it took him a few days or a week to answer this question for himself, before involving others, I would be fine in allowing it. But it did come with an expiry date.

    We'll never find a consensus in the fandom on what time is appropriate (a couple of days, a week? 2 weeks? a month? two months?) for Oliver to do his soul-searching on the matter. Ulitmately, he did deserve some time to figure things, and not to rehash this all over again -- my feeling is that sooner rather than later, he had to tell his fiancee that he has a secret son ... and certainly well before Darhk blurted it out.

    Felicity and Helix -- the nature of the lying here is a different context. No secret babies here or an engagement ring at stake here.

    The Helix dilemma is, in its most general terms, the idea that teammates shouldn't keep secrets from each other, if being a team means they have to be able to count on each other and trust one another. No one is saying that anyone on that team is a pillar of trustworthiness, obviously not secret-keeping champion Oliver.

    Oliver's serial secret-keeping does not invalidate or dilute the principle that teammates shouldn't keep secrets, conceal the truth, obscure facts that could impact how the team works, or -at the extreme- if they can prevail or survive against an enemy.

    TPTB are playing the trust card here and I do feel that they are trying to give Felicity a glimpse (as decaf mild roast as it may be) of Oliver's ethical quandries along his journey. They may even be trying to sell the idea that the Helix arc will be her version of Oliver's five years in hell -- not sure if viewers will buy it or make the parallel. It remains to be seen.

    Oliver being a poor example of divulging truth to his teammates does not cancel out Felicity's (or any Team Arrow member's) obligation as a team member to not keep secrets that could impact the team's activities. Whether she's a documented Queen employee, contractor, freelancer, getting a pension or not, or a volunteer is beside the point -- if you're doing work on behalf of Team Arrow, you're on Team Arrow. Quentin's not working in the cave, but he's as much a part of Team Arrow as anyone else ... even if he's drawing a municipal salary.

    I actually don't expect Felicity to pay a heavy price on her Helix activities -- I'd be impressed if the blowback was harsh, but it likely won't go there. I don't believe they plan to come down hard on her, because of her on-off primary love interest status, even if what she does with Helix has consequences that would get any other teammate benched or booted off the team.

    It's not like Oliver or anyone else has no clue that she's doing something that possibly is questionable, Oliver and more than a few of them suspect something is up. He gave her a choice to come clean, as a team member. (Their 'will they-won't they, ring-or-not' relationship status is irrelevant here in the context of concealing the nature of her Helix activities from the team).

    She chose not to come clean in that moment. It's a wilful act, she wasn't tricked or deluded in not fessing up. Helix may be deluding her in to believing their acts are in the name of justice, but I guess after five years it becomes harder to believe that Felicity's spidey-sense isn't on fire around Alena and friends.

    This choice should come with real consequences that won't be just brushed away. If any other team member pulled this, I suspect a segment of the fandom would be all over them on how they betrayed the trust of the team, how they failed Oliver, how could they ever be counted on again, etc. They'd drum up a Star Chamber and take the person to task, with no right of appeal. Not saying Felicity deserves such treatment, only that she shouldn't get a total pass on it.

    I'm expecting that Felicity only gets a slap on the wrist. There may be some fallout, but it will likely peter out in an ep or two. Or, they'll conceive a scenario where she saves the world/brings down Helix and this supposedly wipes the previous lying-to-team offence off the table.

    Flash now has the Speed Force as his 'sin-eater' for Flashpoint -- I'm thinking Olicity will likely be Felicity's sin-eater for the Helix snafu.

    As for S6: I'd be fine if the gov't determines that the Helix hacks are "worse than Snowden" in the Bourne movie sense, and ARGUS is one of the agencies tasked to terminate the hackers with extreme prejudice. Maybe they could find the Helix lair and wipe out all but Felicity and maybe Alena/Sledgehammer who escape. In this scenario, Felicity would then face some tangible blowback for her Helix dalliance next season.

    Diggle would then be in a pickle if Lyla has one agenda and Team Arrow has another. Duty to country/to wife or duty to team and friends? (I'm basically looking/scrambling here to create some story-driven relevance for Diggle in S6, beyond shaking his shipper pom-poms, pep talking and keeping the Arrow Van warm.).

  14. #29
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    This episode made me momentarily forget most of the sins of this season and made me feel like I've been a huge fan since day one. Great job.

    Truthfully, though, I've never been over the moon with this show for any extended length of time. When The Flash started, I never would have conceived that I would eventually like it less than Arrow, yet here we are. I think I can safely say I've enjoyed this one the most of the four shows this year. I'm definitely more interested in Prometheus than Savitar, even though he got off to a rather lackluster start. I just really hope they stick the landing, unlike they did with Slade.

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    Now it looks like Adrian and Thea may be done who will take their places?

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