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  1. #1
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    Throwing Malone under the bus

    Anyone think it was a good idea?

    Or should Thea be scourged for suggesting it?

  2. #2
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    I think had Oliver losing the Mayoral position been a life or death thing, then sure, toss Malone under the bus, but it wasn't. Oliver getting to keep his job isn't a big enough reason for ruining the rep of a good guy and hurting his family and friends like that in the process. Again, if it was about directly saving lives, I think Billy would have been ok with such a ruse, but it wasn't justified in the circumstances.

    That said, I was fine with Thea being aware of the option and throwing it out there. Oliver gives mixed messages with how far he'd go, and if he had it in his head that not being Mayor would put the whole city in immediate risk, I think he would have gone with that option as a greater good. As it was, it took Thea's suggestion to throw an innocent man under the bus for Oliver to think of throwing the Green Arrow, someone at least not guilty of targeting Malone, under the bus.

    Thea shouldn't be vilified for thinking up these extreme or shady options, only for when she enacts one without justification. And again for the record, still not convinced that given the info at hand that Thea didn't make the right call about silencing Susan Williams.

  3. #3
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    So Thea shouldn't be flagellated for silencing Susan but she should be flagellated for her idea of throwing Malone under the bus?

  4. #4
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Pretty sure I just said she should not be beat up for either.
    Last edited by BkWurm1; 03-09-2017 at 05:37 PM.

  5. #5
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
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    No need for her to be scourged. Her suggestion got turned down as ridiculous anyway. Thea is such a mess this season. They want to make her Moira 2.0 without any logical backstory behind it.

  6. #6
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    So Thea needs to be flagellated as punishment.

  7. #7
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
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    In your dreams maybe, but real life works a bit differently.

  8. #8
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    But if Oliver flagellated her, she'd stop being a brat. In fact, he should have done this done the first time she got high.
    Last edited by Batman6; 03-10-2017 at 05:29 AM.

  9. #9
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    Had Thea been around the full slate of eps., they may have had time to do a better effort on selling the Moira 2.0 idea. As it is, it was rushed. If we had seen Thea make increasingly questionable decisions at city hall throughout the season maybe I could buy that she was becoming Moiraesque. It came off as forced.

    Putting that aside, of Ollie and Thea, it's Ollie who must appear above the fray as mayor. It may be Thea's job to protect and defend his administration, her job to suggest options. But the call to act on them is Oliver's. He rightly nixed the 'screw over Billy's rep' idea - it was a bad one and would have enraged the police force.

    Whether or not we feel Susan deserved to be screwed over -- her "proof" was sitting in a computer, no decision made about divulging it, it may as well have been on the moon - it wasn't Thea's call. The Billy plan was ridiculous, but in this case Thea did the right thing by telling Ollie first as such a deed would reflect on him personally as mayor. Why she didn't do the same when she conjured up the Susan plan makes little sense. If word leaked that the mayor's office had engineered the slander of a reporter in order to keep a scandal from emerging, this would reflect poorly on Oliver and his administration. Nope she went ahead with it, it was a Moira move and IRL the mayor would have every right to ask for her resignation or can her. But of course she gets off lightly, and chooses to leave which was actually the wise call on her part.

    It could have been a decent Thea subplot -- her evolving into Moira -- if there was more meat to it, but it was merely some late inning bare bones thing they cobbled together. Maybe there was a plan on paper to show Thea's descent into murky political gamesmanship, we'll never know.

    If there's throwing under the bus, it's Susan's and definitely Billy's characterizations. Billy may as well have been a chair or table from the prop department. Burned by Prometheus, skewered by Oliver, humiliated by the premature I Love You -- the show threw Billy under the bus.

  10. #10
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
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    That's the thing President Luthor. It came out of nowhere. Last season she left the team because she was worried about what being Speedy was turning her into. And the first half of this season repeatedly made the point about how she was in a better place this season. And then they pull this, because they have to write out Thea (again) and the only storyline they can come up with for that is to make her take a dark turn (again). They need to get more creative with characters' exits.

  11. #11
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    It just goes to show nothing but flagellation will work on her.

  12. #12
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    Even though a lot of this can be laid at the conundrum of writing around WH's scaled back presence, in general terms it's but another sign of many of the vets running out of steam as characters in their own right.

    After five years, we can fairly ask Thea, Quentin and even Diggle: "What have you done for Arrow the series lately?" Maybe they'll do with Diggle and Quentin what they've done with Thea and plant some last minute plot bunnies to keep them relevant to Arrow's future -- but as of this moment, I really don't know what more they can do with any of them to keep them fresh. Diggle and Thea's S5 subplots have been mostly been there, done that. And Quentin being Deputy Mayor could either be an avenue to extend his relevance if Oliver is unseated (a strong possibility), or it's merely a case of shelving him as a character because they've run out of good ideas for him.

    'Because they've been there since the beginning!!!' is not a good enough reason for me to stay invested in them, not after five years. There is only so much relationshipping/bromancing re: Oliver that the trio can do before they get repetitive and stagnant as characters. Felicity would be in this group too, if not for her Olicity immunity idol and the hail mary pass that is the Helix subplot. Do we really want to condemn them to benchwarming fates as sounding boards and plot exposition mouthpieces, just for the sake of having them around? Doesn't sound like an appealing fate for characters who have literally bled for Oliver's cause.

    I'm not calling for an across the board culling, but a strategic thinning of the herd would be preferable if we can't expect better use of the vets they still have. Sort of like relegation in the Premier League, you're dropped to the lower division if your season's performance isn't up to snuff. It looks like Thea may be first to go off into the sunset and, frankly, I think the writing has been on the wall for awhile.

  13. #13
    Site Groupie Shelby Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    Do we really want to condemn them to benchwarming fates as sounding boards and plot exposition mouthpieces, just for the sake of having them around? Doesn't sound like an appealing fate for characters who have literally bled for Oliver's cause.
    That's a very interesting question b/c it reminds me of something I've been thinking abt w/ regard to Walking Dead lately. And it is that there have been some TWD characters in more recent seasons who joined and whom I have just never "bonded" with (a few who have already been killed off a few episodes ago, others who are now playing prominent roles in current storylines), and I don't remember having that feeling about TWD until the last few years (Alexandria!). In other words, yes, for almost the entirety of the show they have killed off characters I have liked, and I have missed them, but they still did a good job of integrating new characters that I found interesting and/or liked. But at a certain point maybe new-character fatigue just inevitably sets in and you (generic you) simply can't keep forming new bonds and finding new favorites, and so you find yourself looking back fondly at the days when you had a full cast of characters that you were genuinely invested in and you wonder: what has happened to this show? Maybe there's just a limit to how much you can keep losing? [Now, I will say that there could be reasons other than new-character-fatigue and loss-of-old-comfortably-bonded-with-characters which are responsible for my reaction to TWD, and I'm simply not analytical enough re: TV shows to see what is going on (as I've said before I'm an emotional viewer)].

    So, not to make this about TWD, and to get back to Arrow w/ regard to this issue of keeping comfortable familiar faces around versus cutting them loose, lets take Diggle for example. Diggle was always one of my favorite characters. However, they did pretty much make him a laughingstock in many ways for me when he was forced into all that Olicity shipping. But I still always love when I see him serve in the "wise-counselor role" at various times. It always gives me such a good feeling, a warm happy feeling. But yes, his story also seems stagnant. However, if the show were to write off his character, depriving me of the real pleasure I get from those wise-counseling-session-induced feel-good moments, what would I have to replace that? More Rory? (who I thought was sweet but otherwise didn't do anything substantial for me in the feel-good department and who didn't really sustain my interest) More Evelyn? (need I even elaborate?) More Curtis? (Who I usually find highly annoying) More Felicity? (Who the best I can say about is that in a good episode she doesn't annoy me, and who, though given potentially interesting storylines [paralysis anyone?] always IMO ends up falling well below even the lukewarm threshold in the "interesting compelling story" department). Personally, Rene has piqued my interest and I feel more bonded to him so he will be around I guess (but I know many people do not feel that way at all where he is concerned). I also have found Adrian very interesting so far (before the Prometheus reveal), but sounds like he won't be around next season. So in addition to Diggle, at least I have good feelings about Thea & Quentin, and that's about it. Because they've killed off/written off so many other characters over the years that I either liked or at least found interesting. And from my viewpoint, they've replaced them with pretty much nothing. And if they get rid of the 3 admittedly stagnant characters who I at least still like (Diggle, Thea & Quentin) what in the world will be left for viewers in same predicament as me? Of course I am (well, was) there for Oliver and his story, but obviously this is not a one-man stand-alone performance...

    I'm not saying any of this in defense of Diggle specifically or as an argument that yes: they must keep Diggle, Thea, Quentin. And the show does feel stale to me. But again, I wonder - if a show has failed to build a deep bench of characters that one either really likes and/or finds interesting - and then disposes of the few stale but likeable (or maybe comfortable-familiar is a better term) characters it has, what is left? True, if those characters are boring, then maybe they should be sacrificed for some new characters. But if the new characters end up being people that are written in such a way that one just doesn't like them or one can't connect or get interested/invested in them, then what's left?

    When can a show afford to write off favorites who are probably stagnant, and when can it not? is kind of what I have been pondering...
    Last edited by Shelby Kent; 03-10-2017 at 01:00 PM.

  14. #14
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    Interesting how there only seems to be two possibilities, write better stories to keep characters relevant or write them off. What about downgrading? Does every character have to be in a large portion of episodes? Moira made a major impact on the show even though she was in fewer episodes than Diggle or Thea. Sure she had important storylines but it was also much more effective use of her character. What the showrunners (and “Hollywood“ in general) need to learn is to effectively use the characters they have instead of just throwing them in as often as they can so they need a compelling storyline making their appearance relevant. How many older TV shows had recurring “main“ characters that only showed up when it made sense for them to be there? When the show had something for them to actually do and not just be there to say “I'm still around even though there's no reason for me to be.“ I'm sure some might find such storytelling “convenient“ but many of them also dislike constantly killing off or replacing characters. I find the downfall of Thea not so much the Moira spin but the need to give her major importance when it might not have been necessary.

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    @Shelby, I share your dilemma when it comes to choosing between somewhat stale veteran characters and not-very-engaging newbies. As for long-running shows which managed to come up with engaging storylines for their main cast, I think "Hill Street Blues" did a good job with keeping a (comparatively) stable cast for six seasons. When characters were written out, it was usually not because the series needed a season "game changer" (to quote our beloved Guggenheim!) or because it was the fashionable thing to do (as it seems to be nowadays), but for other reasons. Of course, "Hill Street Blues" is in another league than "Arrow" (and many other current television shows) when it comes to the writing and acting, so maybe the risk of rehashing the same story beats was less imminent for the HSB writers?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hill_Street_Blues

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