View Poll Results: What did you think?

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16. You may not vote on this poll
  • 10 - Fantastic

    1 6.25%
  • 9

    1 6.25%
  • 8

    1 6.25%
  • 7

    1 6.25%
  • 6

    0 0%
  • 5

    1 6.25%
  • 4

    1 6.25%
  • 3

    1 6.25%
  • 2

    2 12.50%
  • 1 - No more "very special" Arrow episodes please

    7 43.75%
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  1. #16
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Story took second place to messaging, and this is where the execution problems emerge.

    Having said that, the show made its point, and they've used up their preach to the masses quota for the season. We'll be back to knocking heads and mending hearts in no time.
    I just feel that more people will remember how poorly the message was executed versus the actual message. And really it frustrates me because if they'd woven the message in right while putting the characters and the story first, then they could have made something really memorable and meaningful instead of just characters debating about something that was peripheral to their regular lives.


    Basically if they were going to set out to serve up the audience their veggies after only selling junk food, it needed to be the best hour of television the show has produced. Instead it was so poorly executed that I can't imagine anyone on the network getting a similar chance. I can't give them points for trying. It needed to be more.

  2. #17
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amarice View Post

    But what stood out for me the most in that episode was this dialogue between Curtis and Felicity:

    We used to talk about things as a society, you know?

    We'd debate and we would argue, and we would still respect each other after.

    Yeah. Somewhere along the line, that just became...

    Rude.

    Rude. Yeah.

    It can be applied both to the "level" of discussion in Arrow fandom and to political situation. US has its issues about last elections, and my country as its problems, as over year ago during the government elections a really bad choice was made. It's not a forum to talk about politics, though.
    Given that this episode was written by Marc Guggenheim himself, I took that as a meta reference about the state of the Arrow fandom. He's complained about the way he's been treated more than once.

  3. #18
    Posting Pro DoubleDevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    I just feel that more people will remember how poorly the message was executed versus the actual message. And really it frustrates me because if they'd woven the message in right while putting the characters and the story first, then they could have made something really memorable and meaningful instead of just characters debating about something that was peripheral to their regular lives.


    Basically if they were going to set out to serve up the audience their veggies after only selling junk food, it needed to be the best hour of television the show has produced. Instead it was so poorly executed that I can't imagine anyone on the network getting a similar chance. I can't give them points for trying. It needed to be more.
    I have to agree with you here (not that that is something completely unfathomable for me). The debate between Frank and Red on the roof during season 2 of Daredevil opened discussion about death penalties without seeming misplaced in the show nor preachy to the audience. It avoided taking any definative stance on the subject where with Arrow I felt they did want to move the audience in a particular direction.
    Last edited by DoubleDevil; 02-17-2017 at 03:52 AM.

  4. #19
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    Given that this episode was written by Marc Guggenheim himself, I took that as a meta reference about the state of the Arrow fandom. He's complained about the way he's been treated more than once.
    In interviews about the episode before it came out he nearly quoted word for word what he had Curtis say to Felicity about the problem with politics being that people think it's impolite to talk about it. I think in this case he really wasn't being meta about fandom even if a meta statement could be made from what he's saying.

  5. #20
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    I agree it was refreshing to watch the balance between mayorial and arrow duties. Real life political forums can't even come to agreement on gun issues at least the show reached a compromise.

  6. #21
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    And Arrow wasn't even the first show in this universe where they tried to insert some messaging.

    LoT fans remember when they had that Halloween episode that attempted to tackle the issue of slavery in America. Where Arrow might be faulted for maybe tackling a complex issue that was too unwieldy to explore in a single episode and choosing to play it safe aka not picking a side, LoT can certainly be faulted for picking bad timing in dealing with a serious issue during an ep that was essentially a Halloween gimmick ep full of the undead.

    While addressing slavery and its legacy in America is a valid subject ... inserting it during LoT's Halloween zombie romp ep. completely took away from the seriousness of the issue they wanted to tackle. Not a good call to address such a substantial issue in the context of a story that was largely just a zany Halloween themed romp. In the least serious series in the universe, wanting to take on such a heavy issue was totally pretentious of them -- and this, on one of the newer kids on the block not even a full two seasons into it. They would be the last series I would expect to see deal with serious issues.

    And both Flash and SG have had their share of Hallmark Channel soapbox stumping, though with "safer" CW-friendly topics like hope, trust and family and not with topics as serious as gun control or slavery.

    So while I still give Arrow points for daring to even utter gun control on American TV (again, the issue is not as controversial in the rest of the world esp. in areas where gun control already exists, so how "politically-charged" it was depends on where you live), and also LoT for bringing up slavery and its fallout on American society, the delivery of these messages got hampered by meh storytelling, and in LoT's case also a poor sense of timing.

    Arrow may have felt that they "earned" the right to address such a substantial issue after five years, while LoT somehow felt it was relevant for them as a "time travel" show (arguable at this point if it still is a time travel show) to decide to take on slavery without even having a seniority card to play. Look for Flash, the next senior show who may feel they have earned it, to try a similar ep in the future (my money is on a Flash PSA ep in S4 or S5)

    I don't object to them wanting to or the validity of the issues they addressed, but I think in both cases they bit off more than they can chew. The problem in Arrow is in trying to weave in into the story, with less than perfect results (yeah, the storytelling was clunky, though I feel it wasn't the complete disaster as it's being made out to be). I found the LoT situation a bit more problematic, in that they took on a perfectly valid, serious and relevant issue -- but chose to bury it in a holiday-themed ep. Does anyone really remember the point they were trying to make about slavery on that LoT ep, because what I remember is zombies and the team kicking butt and something about Jax and freeing slaves thrown in on the side.

    So if messaging too much is an issue, it's a universe-wide thing.

    Basically, the Berlantiverse has been doing the pretentious thing as a whole for awhile -- the monologues, heroes doing what they wish because they can, soapboxing, etc. -- and it's not unique to Arrow only.

  7. #22
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    In interviews about the episode before it came out he nearly quoted word for word what he had Curtis say to Felicity about the problem with politics being that people think it's impolite to talk about it. I think in this case he really wasn't being meta about fandom even if a meta statement could be made from what he's saying.
    He and the fans may see parallels in it in a meta sense, but I took what Curtis said as-is in the context of the gun control debate: that it is better to keep the lines of communication open and have civil discussion and not cut off debate because one doesn't feel there will be any common ground. I felt this was the message they wanted to leave the audience about it, which I don't blame fans for not finding it amid the gazillion sidebar issues they threw in it.

    I felt they did their homework on the issue, brought up some valid points on both sides, though in the context of the story I doubt anyone outside of Oliver, Diggle or Quentin would be subject matter experts. (Maybe they didn't want the "establishment" elites doing the preaching and left it to the "average joes" Rene and Curtis to speak about it?) Maybe if Diggle had voiced the pro-gun Rene side and Quentin voiced the anti-gun Curtis side that may have lent more credibility within the story.

    As I've said, story came second. We are probably expecting a CW show about a superhero with a bow and arrow to accomplish more on this than it set out to do, and we got what we got. They peeked their head into the gun control debate, threw in their two cents and quickly closed the door without taking a real stand.

  8. #23
    Posting Pro DoubleDevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    He and the fans may see parallels in it in a meta sense, but I took what Curtis said as-is in the context of the gun control debate: that it is better to keep the lines of communication open and have civil discussion and not cut off debate because one doesn't feel there will be any common ground. I felt this was the message they wanted to leave the audience about it, which I don't blame fans for not finding it amid the gazillion sidebar issues they threw in it.

    I felt they did their homework on the issue, brought up some valid points on both sides, though in the context of the story I doubt anyone outside of Oliver, Diggle or Quentin would be subject matter experts. (Maybe they didn't want the "establishment" elites doing the preaching and left it to the "average joes" Rene and Curtis to speak about it?) Maybe if Diggle had voiced the pro-gun Rene side and Quentin voiced the anti-gun Curtis side that may have lent more credibility within the story.

    As I've said, story came second. We are probably expecting a CW show about a superhero with a bow and arrow to accomplish more on this than it set out to do, and we got what we got. They peeked their head into the gun control debate, threw in their two cents and quickly closed the door without taking a real stand.
    I disagree that they didn't take a stand, they took what they thought was a moderate stand without voicing any specifics. All of the CW/DC shows as well as Marvel's Netflix have taken up topics that are hot beds of discussion currently (aside from Flash as far as I can tell) with differing degrees of success in their execution. Supergirl's feminist/lgbt message is the most successful on the CW in my opinion in which the audience isn't pulled out of the show while getting their preaching to from the showrunners. Luke Cage was the most obvious on Netflix yet still fit the show almost perfectly.

  9. #24
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    And Arrow wasn't even the first show in this universe where they tried to insert some messaging.

    LoT fans remember when they had that Halloween episode that attempted to tackle the issue of slavery in America. Where Arrow might be faulted for maybe tackling a complex issue that was too unwieldy to explore in a single episode and choosing to play it safe aka not picking a side, LoT can certainly be faulted for picking bad timing in dealing with a serious issue during an ep that was essentially a Halloween gimmick ep full of the undead.

    While addressing slavery and its legacy in America is a valid subject ... inserting it during LoT's Halloween zombie romp ep. completely took away from the seriousness of the issue they wanted to tackle. Not a good call to address such a substantial issue in the context of a story that was largely just a zany Halloween themed romp. In the least serious series in the universe, wanting to take on such a heavy issue was totally pretentious of them -- and this, on one of the newer kids on the block not even a full two seasons into it. They would be the last series I would expect to see deal with serious issues.

    And both Flash and SG have had their share of Hallmark Channel soapbox stumping, though with "safer" CW-friendly topics like hope, trust and family and not with topics as serious as gun control or slavery.

    So while I still give Arrow points for daring to even utter gun control on American TV (again, the issue is not as controversial in the rest of the world esp. in areas where gun control already exists, so how "politically-charged" it was depends on where you live), and also LoT for bringing up slavery and its fallout on American society, the delivery of these messages got hampered by meh storytelling, and in LoT's case also a poor sense of timing.

    Arrow may have felt that they "earned" the right to address such a substantial issue after five years, while LoT somehow felt it was relevant for them as a "time travel" show (arguable at this point if it still is a time travel show) to decide to take on slavery without even having a seniority card to play. Look for Flash, the next senior show who may feel they have earned it, to try a similar ep in the future (my money is on a Flash PSA ep in S4 or S5)

    I don't object to them wanting to or the validity of the issues they addressed, but I think in both cases they bit off more than they can chew. The problem in Arrow is in trying to weave in into the story, with less than perfect results (yeah, the storytelling was clunky, though I feel it wasn't the complete disaster as it's being made out to be). I found the LoT situation a bit more problematic, in that they took on a perfectly valid, serious and relevant issue -- but chose to bury it in a holiday-themed ep. Does anyone really remember the point they were trying to make about slavery on that LoT ep, because what I remember is zombies and the team kicking butt and something about Jax and freeing slaves thrown in on the side.

    So if messaging too much is an issue, it's a universe-wide thing.

    Basically, the Berlantiverse has been doing the pretentious thing as a whole for awhile -- the monologues, heroes doing what they wish because they can, soapboxing, etc. -- and it's not unique to Arrow only.
    I agree that both episodes were heavy handed and clunky but Arrow was trying to do get information out there while at this point I'm pretty confident we all agree slavery is bad. My problem with the LoT episode was not even the slavery is bad message in the middle of a zombie episode, but that they had their Black character only realize how bad it was when he got chained up in the barn and others also chained up started monologue-ing to this stranger about their lives in the most cliche terms.

    There's a similarity to be sure but at least nobody is still trying to pick a side on slavery. Or at least I hope not, lol. To me it wasn't wonderfully written but I wasn't so upset about a missed opportunity since it's an accepted fact that slavery=bad. The inclusion of those scenes were IMO just the show trying to bring historical details to life. I may have cringed hard in some scenes but the episode remains IMO very watchable and there were some lovely in character moments and I did feel like they deepened the characters, but I feel like even with Rene's flashbacks, nothing about the messaging of Arrow's episode really impacted the characters.

    Next week it will be back to business as usual and that just points fingers at how pasted on this episode was to the show. Had MG been heading up The Flash I'd bet he'd have used the exact same dialogue when laying out the issues. There's a reason why people mock after school specials and very special episodes. They were notoriously badly written. Like you said, message above story. Tell instead of show. In this case you can tell MG had all this stuff he wanted to say and it burst out into Arrow but even though I probably share a similar opinion on gun control, I hate how he failed to serve the show and failed to serve the message by serving the show.

    I also bet a number of the other writers knew this wasn't that good and nobody dared tell the man in charge, lol.

  10. #25
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    Its funny, Ive defended ARROW this season, even though I believe it doesnt need defending, as its been pretty damn good. That being said, I gave this episode a 7. The flashbacks were just atrocious and present day, while doing a good job at what it intended to do, just wasnt all that compelling as an episode of ARROW. Although Stephen Amelle was outstanding throughout.

    I thought more people on YouTube would see the episode as I did, but to my surprise, of the regular reactors/reviewers I follow they all really enjoyed the episode and the message, with one reviewer even going so far as to say this was the best episode ARROW has ever done.

    Very interesting how devisive the episode was
    Last edited by 134sc; 02-17-2017 at 03:38 PM.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    In interviews about the episode before it came out he nearly quoted word for word what he had Curtis say to Felicity about the problem with politics being that people think it's impolite to talk about it. I think in this case he really wasn't being meta about fandom even if a meta statement could be made from what he's saying.
    I interpreted it as a meta comment about the state of discussion about both politics and the fandom. Given the fact that there is almost no middle ground in the Arrow fandom except a couple of forums maybe, it's a problem. But then again I suppose almost every bigger fandom is like that - a while back I read that "Sherlock BBC" fandom trashed everything "Elementary" related (by trashing I mean hating everything, insulting the crew and the actors, and especially the actress plaing Joan Watson). I even don't like "Elementary", as I consider it one of those shows that use Holmes name for advertising, while not even trying to keep the spirit of the original work (while as the criminal show on its own the part I've seen was watchable), but seriously, what's wrong with those people? "Sherlock BBC" used to do something clever and reference the source material, but it's miles behind Conan Doyle's work. And Granada's Sherlock Holmes tv show.

    Interesting fact I've heard about yesterday while watching a programme about politics (it seems that access to firearms in Poland is also discussed lately). In Poland the ratio is as follows: 1 gun for every 100 citizens, and majority of the weapon is for hunting. There's a whole bunch of regulations and restrictions. A crossbow is considered to be a weapon but a bow isn't, because there is simply nothing about bows in the act about the weapon (or whatever it's called - firearm ownership act?). Unlike in US it's illegal to hunt with a bow though.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amarice View Post
    ... But then again I suppose almost every bigger fandom is like that - a while back I read that "Sherlock BBC" fandom trashed everything "Elementary" related (by trashing I mean hating everything, insulting the crew and the actors, and especially the actress plaing Joan Watson). I even don't like "Elementary", as I consider it one of those shows that use Holmes name for advertising, while not even trying to keep the spirit of the original work (while as the criminal show on its own the part I've seen was watchable), but seriously, what's wrong with those people? ...
    I think there's different types (personality-styles) of fans. And I'll just leave it at that,lol. But Isaac Asimov, in the biography It's Been a Good Life, made the following observation about science fiction fans when he joined his first science fiction fan club in 1938 (and personally I think, from what I've seen w/ Arrow, this applies to fans of other genres and activities as well): "Eventually, I came to understand that science fiction-fans were a quarrelsome and contentious bunch and that clubs were forever splitting up into hostile factions."
    Last edited by Shelby Kent; 02-18-2017 at 08:53 AM.

  13. #28
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    Hey! Its my first post here (though I'm certainly no newbie when it comes to discussing 'Arrow', as though who've seen me on the IMDB boards can attest).

    Here's my 2 cents on the episode.

    Personally (and I'll say this without hesitation) I consider this to be one of the finest episodes of 'Arrow'. That's not to say its perfect and completely without flaws, but its a pretty solid hour of television that both entertains and educates. Yes, it shies away from taking a side (and honestly, while that's disappointing, I don't blame them - doing so would have been akin to lobbing a grenade at an already bitterly fragmented fanbase) but it does acknowledge the complexity of the issue at hand, and does a decent enough job offering multiple perspectives that don't fall into a binary.

    It made sense to me for Curtis and Rene to take the positions they took. Lance's own position was interesting and a reminder to us that characters are more than just stereotypes based on certain roles (in this case, Lance being an ex-cop). With Oliver himself...well, I think the writers did the honest thing when they straight-up had him say "Its complicated".

    Because it is. Oliver is a man who's pretty proficient with a gun. For a time, it was his favored weapon of choice before he took up the bow for good. Several of his associates use guns (even if somehow they miraculously take non-lethal shots most of the time). So he of all people understands the perspective of a gun-owner and the need to use whatever means necessary to protect himself and those closest to him. At the same time, he is someone fighting to make the city safe, as both the mayor and as Green Arrow. And something like a gun registry is a step in that direction, no matter how successful (or not) it will be.

    The show doesn't shy away from the fact that these probably aren't the best people to be commenting on the issue. As Rene says rightly, as vigilantes "[their] whole life is violence". Oliver himself is pretty aware of the cycle of violence he perpetuates every night as the Green Arrow. Then again, most people in the real world too perhaps aren't the 'best people' to be commenting on the issue - perhaps because there are no people who are ideally suited to this debate. Just people who are stuck with a dilemma that is costing lives and being forced to try to come up with some kind of solution before all hell breaks loose.

    The flashbacks were a particular highlight for me. Though it had been previously implied, it was jarring to see Rene as a family man, and that too, clearly the more responsible partner between him and his wife. The moment he decides to take up the hockey mask and become Wild Dog, after seeing Green Arrow kill Damian Darkh on TV, further reinforces the 'cycle of violence' that Oliver discussed earlier and also ties into the season's theme of Oliver's actions having consequences for the people around him. At the same time, knowing Rene as we do now, its easy to see how he became what he became, and how being on Team Arrow is probably the best thing for him right now (well, at least until he gets his daughter back).

    I quiet appreciated the mini-'twist' regarding the shooter's motives. In making the shooter a kind of extreme gun-registration fanatic the writers presented him as someone who's become exactly what he's fighting against - a warning perhaps to all of us in the real-world, but also a mirror to Oliver and the rest of his team, most of whom have a history of flirting with their darker natures.

    And yes, of course, the 'magic law' that solves everything - well, I admit its a cop-out of an ending in some senses, though it was handled better than it could have been. (It actually reminded me a bit of this classic Green Arrow and Batman team-up from the late 60's which revolved around the passage of an 'Anti-Crime Bill' that seemed like it would magically wipe out all crime!). In no way is it presented as a solution to a problem that looks years away from being solved in the real world...rather, its more like the first step in working towards a solution, something we need to work towards in real life, no matter where in the world we're from and what problems are ailing us.

  14. #29
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Kent View Post
    I think there's different types (personality-styles) of fans. And I'll just leave it at that,lol. But Isaac Asimov, in the biography It's Been a Good Life, made the following observation about science fiction fans when he joined his first science fiction fan club in 1938 (and personally I think, from what I've seen w/ Arrow, this applies to fans of other genres and activities as well): "Eventually, I came to understand that science fiction-fans were a quarrelsome and contentious bunch and that clubs were forever splitting up into hostile factions."
    I think Asimov was foolish or at least naive to think there was anything so different about sci-if fans that made them extra quarrelsome or contentious. Just look at sports team rivalries. Or art critics. Or New York vs Chicago style pizza. Anything that has fans and a subject matter open to some degree of interpretation has fans splitting into different camps and often verrrry contentious camps. These days it's just so much easier to hear from these clashing opinions with the internet.

  15. #30
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    Welcome to the boards, sanddragon!

    It's clear the show wanted to get a middle-of-the-road viewpoint across, and while it did muddle up the storytelling to some degree, they made the effort in addressing a topic that is controversial at least to its American audience. They could have gone the whole series, use lots of guns in their eps and said nothing about gun control. Or, they could do what they did and open up some dialogue about it.

    In terms of pass-fail, they chose to put their necks out -- not too far, mind you -- and take a bit of a risk. Taking this risk gets a point for me, even though they did cop-out on not spelling out what Oliver's mysterious, centrist gun ordinance actually is. I get that they didn't want to step on a political landmine and tick off those on the left or right on the issue, they're not going to rattle execs and advertisers either ... and on another show and network maybe they could have stepped into the fire, consequences be damned.

    They wanted to keep communications channels open -- what the message boiled down to. It was a valid point and a safe course, and while I personally would have preferred them to push the envelope a bit further, dig into the gun control issue more etc. .... finding the answer to gun control is not something I actually expect from a superhero show on The CW. I do expect a show that uses guns a lot in their action scenes could have something relevant to say about the issue. And maybe viewers who expected Arrow to "solve" the gun control debate in one episode were expecting too much from it.

    As I'm not in the US, I'm seeing it from the outside looking in. I can only guess how such a topic may influence how a US fan may see this ep. There are probably fans who didn't separate the message from the story and judged the ep accordingly. Some may dislike it because it dared to tread on anything to do with the 2nd Amendment, and others who frowned on it not going far enough in advocating for gun control. If Arrow had taken one side or other, someone was going to take offence. Taking the middle road was probably prudent.

    Take away the messaging, and we got an average story about Oliver stopping a gunman from rampaging through SC, and he did it with the weight of his public office and (mostly) not by violence. (The Bertinelli associate wasn't so lucky.)

    I think seeing Oliver as GA holding a military grade weapon was there intentionally to create a shock effect, not unlike when I picked up this issue years ago with Batman holding a gun:

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    It was an image meant to provoke, on a visceral "WTF -- Batman with a gun?!" level. It was more shocking with Batman because he doesn't use guns for obvious reasons, but it doesn't mean he doesn't know how to use them. And -spoiler alert- Batman is actually a pretty good shot too in a scenario where he had no other option. FYI: he still didn't kill the guy.

    Ollie cutting city hall deals to get some regulations passed makes for great political fodder in making their point or advocating a stand, but in terms of pure viewing entertainment it's not as thrilling as GA skewering thugs and walloping street punks.

    Unless you're a political junkie, you won't be hearing fans gush about how Oliver deftly wrangled city council support for some city by-laws aka "Did you see how Oliver traded in some political capital to get council to back his proposal?" They put their effort on the messaging, and I don't mind it in occasional/infrequent bites on the show as I do have some interest in politics ... and with Oliver as mayor, politics is bound to surface on some issue. If there are plans for Oliver not to be mayor in future, then an ep like this had a limited window of opportunity to be made. It probably had to happen while Oliver was still in office.

    What I do think is that they had their ep to indulge in getting a viewpoint across, and I am ready to get back to Oliver's GA journey, Prometheus, the Bratva flashbacks and what's next for Dinah, "dark" Felicity and the gang.
    Last edited by President_Luthor; 02-18-2017 at 05:04 PM.

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