View Poll Results: What did you think?

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  • 10 - Fantastic

    1 6.25%
  • 9

    1 6.25%
  • 8

    1 6.25%
  • 7

    1 6.25%
  • 6

    0 0%
  • 5

    1 6.25%
  • 4

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  • 3

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  • 2

    2 12.50%
  • 1 - No more "very special" Arrow episodes please

    7 43.75%
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  1. #31
    Site Groupie Shelby Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    I think Asimov was foolish or at least naive to think there was anything so different about sci-if fans that made them extra quarrelsome or contentious...
    He didn't comment on science fiction fans as compared to other fans. He only made the observation that he came to understand the science fiction fans as quarrelsome, contentious and with a tendency to split into hostile factions. This doesn't exclude him thinking the same about other types of fans. He didn't address his thoughts or experiences, or if he even had any, about other types of fandom.

  2. #32
    Posting Pro DoubleDevil's Avatar
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    I find it interesting that it's continually claimed they didn't take a stand on the issue, they did. Without spelling it out directly to see exactly where they stood one can still see it was at least a position slightly left of center. This was made clear by stating rights have limitations, the US is the only western culture (that I know of, I haven't researched ALL abortion laws in the world) that one can legally abort a pregnancy shortly before giving birth without the risk of the mother's well being (although I don't know why they conflated legal rights with constitutional rights other than to prove there are limitations to rights). I won't go into the PC culture limiting our 1st Amendment which isn't a limitation imposed by the amendment. There are ways to help limit gun violence without infringing on the 2nd Amendment which doesn't require compromise from pro gun advocates yet these measures aren't deemed going far enough or that they are discriminatory to those the left wishes to champion (the mentally ill in this case) by gun control advocates. Let's take those steps first before we impose limitations which do take away from our rights.
    Last edited by DoubleDevil; 02-19-2017 at 02:09 AM.

  3. #33
    Site Groupie Shelby Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDevil View Post
    I find it interesting that it's continually claimed they didn't take a stand on the issue, they did. Without spelling it out directly to see exactly where they stood one can still see it was at least a position slightly left of center. This was made clear by stating rights have limitations, the US is the only western culture (that I know of, I haven't researched ALL abortion laws in the world) that one can legally abort a pregnancy shortly before giving birth without the risk of the mother's well being (although I don't know why they conflated legal rights with constitutional rights other than to prove there are limitations to rights).
    When you say "shortly before giving birth," what specific time period (gestational age) are you defining as "shortly"?

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Kent View Post
    When you say "shortly before giving birth," what specific time period (gestational age) are you defining as "shortly"?
    We have very liberal abortion laws in Sweden/Scandinavia, but abortions are still not allowed after week 22. Given that the normal gestation period for human females are 42 weeks, that's hardly "shortly before giving birth"....

    http://www.thenewbieguide.se/health/...alth/abortion/

    Here is a pretty illustrative map over the abortion rights in various areas of the world. I have the impression that the US has roughly the same abortion laws as most European countries, although the procedure might be more difficult, due to insurance matters, or purposive stalling (as the Texas cases mentioned in the Guardian).

    http://worldabortionlaws.com/map/

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...to-easy-access

    I know this is wildly off-topic, but just like @Shelby I was puzzled by DD's comment.
    Last edited by evaba; 02-19-2017 at 08:45 AM.

  5. #35
    Site Groupie Shelby Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evaba View Post
    I know this is wildly off-topic, but just like @Shelby I was puzzled by DD's comment.
    Yes, I'm not interested in getting into any kind of on-line debate about abortion, especially here at KSite, but I think when subjective terms such as "shortly" are used, it can help, whenever possible, to know how each party participating in a discussion (including those who are reading the discussion) is defining that term.

    So just to add a bit of context to what you have shared about the timing of abortion in Sweden, here in North Carolina abortion after 20 weeks is banned, unless it is undertaken b/c of health/threat to life of mother (which certainly is not to say that in those cases it is mandatory; a mother may certainly still choose to continue w/ pregnancy even if it threatens her life/health...)

    http://statelaws.findlaw.com/north-c...tion-laws.html

    Also, to put the time-frame within context of length of pregnancy, ACOG has defined full-term pregnancy to be 39 wks 0 days to 40 wks 6 days (most optimal time for best health outcomes), with distinctions made for other categories ranging from "early term" to "post-term" (with specified time frames of gestation for each category; overall range of which is 37 wks thru 42 weeks). Not sure if European Obs might be using different categories, so only confine this to ACOG guidelines for over here.
    http://www.acog.org/About-ACOG/News-...Term-Pregnancy

    I don't believe that OBs generally (or at least none that I know, nor neonatologists that I know) would consider 20 weeks to be "shortly" from a health-outcomes medical or biological perspective.

    Personally, I don't consider 20 weeks out of a 39-40 week time period, to be "shortly" from a temporal perspective. And that's all I'll say about that. Again, not trying to get into a debate here!

  6. #36
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    So just to add a bit of context to what you have shared about the timing of abortion in Sweden, here in North Carolina abortion after 20 weeks is banned, unless it is undertaken b/c of health/threat to life of mother (which certainly is not to say that in those cases it is mandatory; a mother may certainly still choose to continue w/ pregnancy even if it threatens her life/health...)
    I actually think it's the same over here. Abortions after week 18 are only allowed in very special cases, i.e. when the health of the mother is at risk, or when there is something seriously wrong with the unborn child. So, abortions between the 18th and 22nd week are probably quite rare.

    After the 18th a woman needs a permission from the National Board of Health and Welfare (Socialstyrelsen) to have an abortion. Permission for these late abortions is usually granted for cases in which the fetus or mother are unhealthy. Abortion is not allowed if the fetus is viable, which generally means that abortions after the 22nd week are not allowed.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Sweden
    Last edited by evaba; 02-19-2017 at 04:33 PM.

  7. #37
    Posting Pro DoubleDevil's Avatar
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    Thank you both evaba and shelby for correcting me, obviously I was falsely informed on the subject of abortion. I personally have no need of such a procedure therefore I didn't research it as diligently as I should have. It still doesn't explain why the showrunners conflated legal rights with constitutional rights.

  8. #38
    Site Groupie Shelby Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDevil View Post
    Thank you both evaba and shelby for correcting me, obviously I was falsely informed on the subject of abortion. I personally have no need of such a procedure therefore I didn't research it as diligently as I should have. It still doesn't explain why the showrunners conflated legal rights with constitutional rights.
    Well, I think we just had a discussion about one aspect of a very complex and nuanced subject. I am sure there are other aspects about the topic, about which you are quite knowledgable.

    Meanwhile, I think your point about conflating legal rights with constitutional rights is very interesting. I am not at all well-versed on aspects of that topic and it would be interesting if I did bit of reading about that before watching. I haven't yet decided if I want to watch this ep, but if I do, then my viewing experience will no doubt be much richer, after having had the opportunity to read all the discussions and perspectives presented on this board. (Translation: if I watch I will try harder to pay attention to the issues presented by posters here [including the legal vs. constitutional undertones you noted] and maybe focus a little less on how much or how little Felicity & Curtis are annoying me in the episode, lol)

  9. #39
    Posting Pro DoubleDevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Kent View Post
    Well, I think we just had a discussion about one aspect of a very complex and nuanced subject. I am sure there are other aspects about the topic, about which you are quite knowledgable.

    Meanwhile, I think your point about conflating legal rights with constitutional rights is very interesting. I am not at all well-versed on aspects of that topic and it would be interesting if I did bit of reading about that before watching. I haven't yet decided if I want to watch this ep, but if I do, then my viewing experience will no doubt be much richer, after having had the opportunity to read all the discussions and perspectives presented on this board. (Translation: if I watch I will try harder to pay attention to the issues presented by posters here [including the legal vs. constitutional undertones you noted] and maybe focus a little less on how much or how little Felicity & Curtis are annoying me in the episode, lol)
    Such things can be done civilly and respectfully as we just demonstrated without going off the deep end and without going to deeply into the controversional topic.

    It was an episode I chose to watch to see how mature the show has become since I quit watching. I wasn't convinced, neither by the story telling nor the handling of the political material, yet I believe I'm in the minority here as far as things like this topic goes not that it matters. I'll voice my opinions when I deem it appropriate but don't want to silence anyone.

  10. #40
    Forum Whiz Amarice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evaba View Post
    http://worldabortionlaws.com/map/

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...to-easy-access

    I know this is wildly off-topic, but just like @Shelby I was puzzled by DD's comment.
    Very soon Poland will be marked with the darkes hue of red, as "prime examples" for the current government how the law should look like is Northern Ireland. And El Salvador. In the worst case scenario anti-abortion law in Poland may become so strict than in practice it will allow to put women in jail for having a miscarriage.

    A few months ago there was a wide-spread protest against proposed restrictions called Black Monday (inspired by women's protest in Iceland in 1975).

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...d-restrictions

  11. #41
    Posting Pro DoubleDevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amarice View Post
    Very soon Poland will be marked with the darkes hue of red, as "prime examples" for the current government how the law should look like is Northern Ireland. And El Salvador. In the worst case scenario anti-abortion law in Poland may become so strict than in practice it will allow to put women in jail for having a miscarriage.

    A few months ago there was a wide-spread protest against proposed restrictions called Black Monday (inspired by women's protest in Iceland in 1975).

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...d-restrictions
    I may seem to side with pro lifers, especially after my inaccurate claim, but I'm not I'm anti far left. That news I find highly troubling, I hope Poland wakes up on this issue and doesn't pass such a law.

    We've stuck with issues brought up in the show itself so far but I think it would be wise for all of us (myself included) if we move on to the usual chatter here.

  12. #42
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    It still doesn't explain why the showrunners conflated legal rights with constitutional rights.
    I think the honest answer is because the gun rights/gun control discussion is often in that same murky spot where proposed legal restrictions get viewed as threats to constitutional rights and vice versa.

    That and MG was clearly a sh!t lawyer, lol.

  13. #43
    Posting Pro DoubleDevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    I think the honest answer is because the gun rights/gun control discussion is often in that same murky spot where proposed legal restrictions get viewed as threats to constitutional rights and vice versa.

    That and MG was clearly a sh!t lawyer, lol.
    I believe they tried bringing up the comparison to driving and drivers licenses but shot that comparison down right away just before bringing up abortion and the 1st Amendment. They noticed the difference between rights and privileges. You could be right on the first point and I'll agree 100% on your 2nd, MG better keep his day job. [emoji2]

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