Loved It? Hated It? What did you think of "Bratva"?

[costas22]

I don't think he was killing people from the list either. Just people whose names were anagrams of names that were on the List.

I have a gut feeling Talia will appear in the present and will probably be in cahoots with Prometheus.

[Shelby Kent]

Knowing how much Guggenheim et al. like their big "Gotcha!" moments, for a while there I thought: what could be a bigger Gotcha! than to have Prometheus pull off his mask and we see the face of either Robert Queen (E-2 ) or Oliver himself (E-2, tho' I think E-2 Oliver is dead, yes? so that would certainly be a problem! lol). Not even going to try to speculate exactly the how or why of it... just that it seems like something Guggie would want to do for the shock value.

BUT, ever since I heard that Oliver recognized some of P's moves as being signature moves taught by Talia, I figure I pretty much have to discard that idea. Oh, well...

[Amarice]

Part of this episode dragged on for me, although there was quite a lot happening. Dig going berserk felt off, Felicity threatening that guy - unconvincing, and that whole OTA angle they were trying to put focus on without naming it OTA - it's was just boring and forced, and I don't know how many times they can repeat that just to give OTA fans more stuff to make gifsets of. Sidenote: seriosly, I'm amazed that someone can write on Tumblr a post about one episode that's longer than all of my posts about season 5 I've written on KSite forum so far, focused entirely on OTA and on convincing other Olicity fans that Dinah/Oliver will never happen because OTA! Olicity! Anyway I added few more tags to my blacklist in Tumblr Saviour so I hope I'll never came across more OTA stuff while looking for stuff with Quentin or Rene.

Back to the review - I liked Anatoly's scenes (especially the greeting in the airport - "That's how we say welcome in Russia". lol). It's one of the characters/actors that I can watch in any scene, no matter what kind of nonsense the plot is (similarly as Quentin). They've interesting dynamics with Oliver. Not to mention that renewing the ties with Bratva might cause some problems in Starting in the future. They were quick to add Dinah to the team and she seems to be awfully fast on familiar chit-chat about brooding and angst. A bit too fast for my taste, although the scene in the van was okay. (Now a very shallow comment - that dark red dress + knee-high boots it's the style I like, Dinah looked stunning, and I'm envious about all those beautiful dresses women in the show are wearing - I want them too, and how they can have a new dress in every episode since none of them have any real work???).

I'm wondering about Ollie's body count, because looking at his activities in the past and using some thugs as a target practice I would say that it reaches 500+. I'm still wondering about Talia's agenda and why she is so determined to make Ollie operate as the Hood.

I was sad to see Ragman go, but at least he didn't die. I've doubts about Felicity's dark arc (at this point the situation with Billy is preposterous; she never even mentions his name - did he had that furneal or not???) , but I genuinely liked her scenes with Ragman, I found the dynamic between them natural. Looking at things from a perspective of a bigger picture - they had to somehow "eliminate" him, because he is simply too powerful. Prometheus could knock him out one or two times, but face to face Ragman could and should take him down - and that obviously can't happen because our Main Hero has to take down his Archenemy.

Susan and Ollie having that one-night stand - now, that's interesting, because it's clear that she is still digging in his past, and now she has evidence that he used to be a part of Bratva (yes, finally someone asked the question about the tattoo - I can't understand why it was never an issue in season 1 when the police nailed Ollie, and why McKenna never wondered where he had get it - she had seen him without his T-shirt on, didn't she? ). Now, I would say that the photo with luchnik from the same time Oliver was seen in Russia seems to point toward Ollie's identity being exposed again. But since at this point I know that they can't use well "game-changers" like that I don't really expect anything special. They will probably reveal Ollie's identity in the end of season 5 as a cliff-hanger and sweep eveything under the rug in 6x01 just like in "Public Enemy", or will treat it like the aftermatch of Billy's death. That means it will be wasted (unless "Sin-eater" will surprise me somehow - but I doubt it). It's a damn shame that can do angsty scenes like the moment when Ollie came back to the foundry in 5x09 and then so completely, uttery waste it and pretend that nothing has happened.

I was happy to see Quentin back. The best part of the episode were the scenes he shared with Rene. I chuckled when Rene said that Oliver wanted him to stay than be "over there starting an internation incident". I loved the piece of their backstory and that Quentin influenced him to change his ways. As always the scenes with Quentin mentioning Laurel were heartwrenching. I hope that now Lance advise Rene how to make till next season when all tropes are against you, you're a minor character, and you don't ship Olicity within the show. (:

Looking forward to Wild Dog centric episode. I hope it won't be crappy. At least Thea is going to be back. I really missed her because for me there is never enough of the brother-sister relationship scenes.

[Amarice]

Dinah fits in well with the team, which honestly furthers my suspicions that either those rumors about Katie Cassidy being cast before everyone else (or shoved into the role) were true, or she really wasn't giving Arrow her all, since her work outside of Arrow has been stellar. I also loved how she was basically like, "They told me when you get like this to just let you brood, but I hate brooding, so we're gonna talk this out." Also love that it was her Oliver turned to.

Okay, I can't give it a pass, because I'm really curious how you get to a conclusion that Katie Cassidy was shoved into role or didn't fully comitted to it after seeing Juliana Harkavy in three episodes only, where only in one she had more prominent role? So far I think she is okay and I must say that I like her more than I expected, but there is that one thing that bothers me in general when it comes to writing in "Arrow". They didn't knew how to lead Laurel from point A to point where Dinah is, so they introduced a new character. And basically we see the same scheme repeat all over again. We never saw how exactly Quentin come to a place where decided that that the city needs the Arrow (only one short monologue in "Broken Dolls"). Oliver's views about killing-not-killing change in every season. PTSD miraculously cured. Right now we don't see Ollie's inner guilt after Billy's death. And in Dinah case we haven't seen how on over the span of a week (!) she got to be familiar enough with Ollie to talk about rather sensitive topics. I would really want her to have something more to do than just hang there in the background and occasionally provide Ollie a word of advice or use canary cry on some thugs. Or a vase.

[evaba]

Part of this episode dragged on for me, although there was quite a lot happening. Dig going berserk felt off, Felicity threatening that guy - unconvincing, and that whole OTA angle they were trying to put focus on without naming it OTA - it's was just boring and forced, and I don't know how many times they can repeat that just to give OTA fans more stuff to make gifsets of. Sidenote: seriosly, I'm amazed that someone can write on Tumblr a post about one episode that's longer than all of my posts about season 5 I've written on KSite forum so far, focused entirely on OTA and on convincing other Olicity fans that Dinah/Oliver will never happen because OTA! Olicity! Anyway I added few more tags to my blacklist in Tumblr Saviour so I hope I'll never came across more OTA stuff while looking for stuff with Quentin or Rene

I didn't watch this episode yet, but I hope nobody in the Holy Trinity actually MENTIONED "The OgGangsters" or something equally cringe-worthy. These lines always give me such second-hand embarassment, especially since it's usually Felicity (the Olicity fandom's in-show avatar) who gets to say them. I am known to write large walls of text (not so much lately, but that's because I'm a lot less involved in the show), but there are some tumblr Oliciters who beat me by a mile! Sometimes I wish they would apply their analytical and rhetorical powers on relationships/scenes/character interactions that are actually fresh/well-written and with some REAL dynamics, rather than oft-recycled scenes which are mostly there to satisfy the need of a certain fanbase to regard some "Arrow" characters/relationships as more "core" and special than others...

[Freawaru]

I really enjoyed this episode. I liked it that we finally get some more information about this whole "darkness" stuff. Maybe those who know the comics know it all already but I had only wondered before if this "darkness" was somehow responsible for all the superhuman stunts Oliver displayed already in season one as the Hood. Now it looks to me like that darkness is some kind of jedi-power Oliver can tap into and then becomes the super fighter including catching arrows he could not possibly have seen coming at him. At least Talia made it sound like that and it makes sense to me considering Oliver is so much better at fighting when he uses it.

Felicity blackmailing someone reminded me of an episode in season one (or was it season two) where she pulled of some similar stunt. She had John then as "thug". Don't recall the name of the episode, but she told the guy she and John were questioning that she had access to all his money and was giving it to some good cause.

Anatoly is a pure joy. David Nykl acts him so differently than Dr. Zelenka in Stargate Atlantis I recall I had to look twice to recognize him in season two when he first appeared. I hope we will still have him in season six. That reminds me: does Anatoly know that it was Slade who killed that Bratva guy? Or does he think it was Oliver? And there is something I do not understand: according to Bratva rules Oliver has to do something for Anatoly if Anatoly does something for him, sounds fair to me, but why has Oliver no choice regarding what he does? Like a deal?

The Susan arc is intriguing. I am looking forward how it will go on.

[Carmine-Infantino]

Why season 6 should be the last

http://www.cbr.com/reasons-arrow-season-six-should-be-final/?utm_source=CBR-FB-B&utm_medium=Facebook-Distribution&utm_campaign=CBR-FB-B&view=list

[Amarice]

I didn't watch this episode yet, but I hope nobody in the Holy Trinity actually MENTIONED "The OgGangsters" or something equally cringe-worthy. These lines always give me such second-hand embarassment, especially since it's usually Felicity (the Olicity fandom's in-show avatar) who gets to say them. I am known to write large walls of text (not so much lately, but that's because I'm a lot less involved in the show), but there are some tumblr Oliciters who beat me by a mile! Sometimes I wish they would apply their analytical and rhetorical powers on relationships/scenes/character interactions that are actually fresh/well-written and with some REAL dynamics, rather than oft-recycled scenes which are mostly there to satisfy the need of a certain fanbase to regard some "Arrow" characters/relationships as more "core" and special than others...

No, it was not as forced as in season 4. No orignal OTA gangsta narration spotted. And there was even some sense in what they were saying but I admit I'm just extra cautious when the "Holy Trinity" is placed in one frame on the screen (one bitten, twice shy). Relationship between them is important, but in my book not more important that Oliver and Thea or Oliver and Quentin, or Oliver-Laurel, even despite the fact that Laurel is dead and will stay dead. Generally I'm a little afraid that OTA and Felicity's dark arc will take away focus from Oliver again.

For me exploring Rene's and Rory's subplots would be more interesting that exploring "OTA" - in Rene's case it seem to actually happen in the show.

Well, it's quite true that an awatar with Felicity or Felicity and Oliver usually equals Olicity shipper. But well, it's not that harmful - I myself spam a lot on Tumblr with Rene's, Quentin's and Black Siren or Laurel content (between spaming about "Supernatural") and here I'm using Carrie Cutter avatar (for a very simple reason - got tired explaining everyone that I'm a female ).

Felicity blackmailing someone reminded me of an episode in season one (or was it season two) where she pulled of some similar stunt. She had John then as "thug". Don't recall the name of the episode, but she told the guy she and John were questioning that she had access to all his money and was giving it to some good cause.

Remember that scene. "b%^&$@ with a wi-fi". IMO the scene in season 1 worked better/played out better. What I like in season 5 though is that Felicity actually needs time to hack something, and sometimes she even can't. Hacking was never realistic in this show, but what I was asking for was putting some limits to Felicity's abilities.

Why season 6 should be the last

http://www.cbr.com/reasons-arrow-sea...FB-B&view=list

We can safely assume that they will milk out of "Arrow" at least seven seasons. And honestly, despite it's flaws, "Arrow" in season 5 is at least watchable, while "Flash" in season 3 became just boring.

Btw. I've read the article till the 7th point. "Mad Dog"? Sorry to say, if they even can't write properly the moniker of a vigilante, then I'm not going to waste time reading the rest. Part of things they were writing about were valid observations, but a part forced. For me it's a good thing when the hero is flawed and fails from time to time. The bad thing is when they are not using that "fail moment" to impact the story. The destruction of Glades had it's impact on Oliver. The death of Billy - so far zero. Ergo, wasted oportunity to pour the viewer with some angst.

And what exactly veterans did to earn the place in the team? In "Arrow" the only person crucial to the show is Oliver Queen (and Oneida Kestrel - Ollie-bow relationship is the one I want to see explored). I wouldn't have anything against him operating solo. I can also come up with at least half a dozen other configurations that doesn't include "Holy Trinity".

[BkWurm1]

I thought the episode was fairly solid. Some good stuff, some stuff that came and went too fast, like Diggle's anger and sudden resolution of killing Andy.

Felicity bluffing so effectively that she spooked Rory into tattling on her (hilarious) was great. And really, it worked and no one got hurt so I can absolutely see why she'd not abandon her cache of info. And really, I don't get why making use of all that info is supposed to be a bad thing. It was probably a good thing that Oliver didn't know the details of what she did since I can't help think he'd probably have been proud of her even while being worried over the risks she took.

I was sad to see Rory go, called it, but still sad he left. At least they didn't kill him. It's really a pity with how they've doubled down on Mad Dog as their favorite. They've toned down some of his worst characteristics in the last two episodes but I'm still not seeing anything that makes me actually like him, not after they gave me nearly half a season of reason why I hated him.

I really enjoyed the episode pointing out that it wasn't just Diggle and Felicity making Oliver better, but all of them making each other better. They are setting it up nicely for Oliver to be the light Felicity will eventually need to set aside her darkness. (Which so far has really not been that dark, lol)

Dinah got to be the millionth customer to tell Oliver he doesn't have to let his past define him. Rinse and repeat. But hey, she pushed him to actually open up and got us some good OTA scenes, so thanks for that.

Still not liking the sound of her cry. I'm hoping they can change it because i can't stand listening to it. The other versions have never bothered me but something about the tone of this one is just awful. Like a scrambled dolphin.

Oliver got around to sleeping with the reporter. I hate how stupid this storyline is making him look. She doesn't even need to betray him for him to look stupid. Just that chance that she might (plus Quentin and Thea hating her) should have been enough for him to think twice. But nope, even though he absolutely knows she's digging into sensitive stuff like Billy's death, he still thinks she's a good option?

Still, I like Anatoly, the team in Russia was mostly interesting and I like Talia in the flashbacks even if I don't understand her motives. So I'd give the episode a 8/10

I really enjoyed this episode. I liked it that we finally get some more information about this whole "darkness" stuff. Maybe those who know the comics know it all already but I had only wondered before if this "darkness" was somehow responsible for all the superhuman stunts Oliver displayed already in season one as the Hood. Now it looks to me like that darkness is some kind of jedi-power Oliver can tap into and then becomes the super fighter including catching arrows he could not possibly have seen coming at him. At least Talia made it sound like that and it makes sense to me considering Oliver is so much better at fighting when he uses it.

Felicity blackmailing someone reminded me of an episode in season one (or was it season two) where she pulled of some similar stunt. She had John then as "thug". Don't recall the name of the episode, but she told the guy she and John were questioning that she had access to all his money and was giving it to some good cause.
n.

No, I don't think there is anything supernatural about the "darkness" to explain Oliver's abilities. The darkness is just that part of him that is willing to go to extremes.

Felicity blackmailing that guy by giving away his money was in season two. 2-21, same episode where Laurel knew Oliver in his bones, lol.

In "Arrow" the only person crucial to the show is Oliver Queen

Beg to differ. Arrow is a show built around a number of key relationships and characters. Oliver Queen is essential for the Green Arrow, but Arrow requires a lot more than just Oliver Queen. That's not the kind of show it has ever been.

[President_Luthor]

I think it was a good call on their part to keep Rory alive. I like what he contributes to the team, even though his meta status and how he saved the day would be two reasons why they could easily have let him pay the ultimate price in this ep. They held off (for now), but I think there will be still a thinning of the ranks. Quentin and Rene's bond could mean they plan to keep them around a bit, or they're building them up more (like Roy and Laurel in their second half exit seasons) to set up a death/exile and glory ending. Quentin has dodged the Reaper so many times, I can't help but think that his number may finally be up. And maybe Rene dying to save the man who set him straight may be another possibility.

I don't have much of an issue with Felicity going back to her hacktivist roots and entering a "dark" phase, as I view any subplot that doesn't involve checking on her romantic status with Oliver is better than the alternative (I'm going at this specifically as pass-fail). She could use the additional character development that this arc may provide. We can always pull the rug out from under them, if the ultimate goal is merely to provide kindling for Olicity melodrama down the line. For the moment, that milk hasn't spilled yet.

Ollie should know better re: trusting or confiding in lovers too completely. No one can tell me he didn't notice that she had a vodka bottle similar to what he's seen in Russia. Or, perhaps I'm expecting too much of him -- to act like The Detective himself, Batman. Like Malcolm said, he's very handsome but not especially bright. Yes, it will be a betrayal if Susan outs him as GA, but Oliver can't claim ignorance. Stupidity, yes -- but not ignorance.

Diggle's whole situation bugged me in this ep. He was acting unstable and reckless as hell throughout ... and Oliver was worried about Wild Dog causing an international incident? I get that they wanted him to come full circle from the fallout over Andy etc., but it did look like they pressed the fast forward button with Diggle here.

The whole OTA thing again? I've long viewed it as a largely fandom-driven definition designed to sideline or downgrade Arrow team members not named Felicity or Diggle, with the effect of making Laurel/BC, and Roy and Thea too, look like either not "real" members of the team or, at best, label them as merely second-tier teammates. The label now actually places/throws under the bus Curtis, Rene and Rory in this same category. Barry too if we take it further to include longtime allies.

At least the flashbacks showed, yet again, that Oliver had plenty of people help him on his journey to become the man who must become ... something else. My OTA interpretation includes everyone from Yao Fei and Robert Queen forward who assisted, inspired or motivated him in the flashbacks. Anatoly has been OTA since T-minus five years before Diggle ever suited up as Oliver's bodyguard and Felicity signed up with the IT department. As of S5, we can now welcome to the OTA: Talia, and likely a couple of unnamed Bratva brothers -- helping Oliver on his journey, long before Diggle and Felicity.

To borrow a phrase from Diggle, Oliver would have been dead ten times over if it wasn't for a virtual league of flashback-era enablers, challengers, friends, partners and allies.

I initially didn't like Wild Dog at first, but I think he has grown on me ... to the point where I think it would do the team good to have someone who will call out crap, call it as he sees it and isn't going to be a Team Arrow cheerleader. (In a way, Julian's role on Flash was similar, even more needed there I'd say ... at least until he joined Team Flash, bought Caitlin jewelry, could now possibly win her heart .)

Rene could use a lot more backstory than what we've been given, which would have made his character more convincing. We really should have learned about his connection to Quentin much sooner.

The odds are high he's a marked man and he might check out by season's end -- odds have gone up if Rene is sticking around -- but it would be unfortunate if he's being built up in the second half just so they can sell his departure. Not like we haven't seen that pattern before.

He, like Rory, have potential and the show could either let them fade into the background or make the case to keep them around beyond the season finale. I'm thinking the first half was the testing ground and the second half will be their final exam.

I also feel that as of S5, even the vets are not immune and having seniority shouldn't be enough to guarantee their spot on the roster either, going into S6. Oliver's not going anywhere, but in my books everything else is fair game.

My maxim for all of them heading into S6 is: prove your worth. If next season is turning over a new leaf for Arrow, then all bets must be off and all immunity idols must be revoked -- whether they joined five months ago or five years ago.

[BkWurm1]

The whole OTA thing again? I've long viewed it as a largely fandom-driven definition designed to sideline or downgrade Arrow team members not named Felicity or Diggle

The nickname well may have been a fandom thing, but the concept can hardly be largely a fandom driven thing since the only reason it was a thing was because it was a thing on the show between at least the back half of season 1 through the top half of season 2.

Yes, lots of new people have come along since, but that's still nearly a whole season of just three people on the team and yes, Diggle and Oliver were just on the team first, but that's not the combo that made me a fan of the show and that's not the pair that the show itself referenced back to starting in season two when it said "it started with the three of us". And this was after a lot of complaints about the sidelining of Diggle and Felicity in the back half of season two so it was very gratifying when the show and the writers acknowledged that the trio was indeed something that made the show special.

Other things can be special too to other people without trying to delegitimize what is special to me.

And really, at this point when I type OTA, all I mean it as is a short hand for Oliver, Diggle and Felicity. That trio does have a special place in my heart because again, that's the show I fell in love with. Everyone else came later. I still loved Thea and Roy. I still loved Rory. I do love Quentin. But no didn't love Laurel. Don't love Wild Dog and even Curtis has been getting on my nerves. I'm without an opinion on Dinah at this point. (She's been mostly inoffensive, but she hasn't done much beyond having a pretty paint by number origin story and be a stereotypical guy's girl super fighter.)

And I also still think when the show lets the OTA interact on the same level as they were interacting in the back half of season one through the front half of season two, it's when the show is at it's best. I don't think I'm the only one that enjoyed that stretch of episodes either.

I'm not advocating for getting rid of everyone and going back to just Oliver, Diggle and Felicity, but I do think the show loses it's way when it forgets that these three have been doing this longer than everyone else. That they were more than just co workers and friends - they were family. They simply should by all reasonable standards know each other better and trust each other more and it remains very curious and strange to me to insist that they wouldn't or shouldn't have any kind of difference in their relationship than the new recruits even though Oliver, Diggle and Felicity do have all this extra time and experience together.

They all have their own relationships with other characters as well, but their relationship with each other is a huge part of why I ever kept watching the show.

[evaba]

Yes, lots of new people have come along since, but that's still nearly a whole season of just three people on the team and yes, Diggle and Oliver were just on the team first, but that's not the combo that made me a fan of the show and that's not the pair that the show itself referenced back to starting in season two when it said "it started with the three of us".

I know that the Olicity fandom always brings up this quote as a "proof" that the writers/producers themselves endorsed the OTA concept since day one, and hence regard the Holy Trinity as more special/core/close than other members. They might even claim that Green Arrow's canonical CB partners, such as Roy and Black Canary, are mere auxiliary members in THIS version of the GA mythos. That's not how the non-shipper fandom view things though, even though both Roy and the original BC have now been written out of the show. As @PresidentLuthor pointed out, #OTA is often regarded as an exclusionary concept, concocted by the Felicity/Olicity/OTA fans to elevate their OC character (who was not at all that prominent as a character in seasons one and two) and make her seem more important than any other female character in the "Arrow" universe. The same applies to Diggle of course.

David Ramsey has a habit of promoting OTA at con appearances and interviews, probably because he likes their camaraderie, but also because he is aware of their popularity in parts of the "Arrow" fandom. He's looking out for number one, and it's nothing wrong with that. However, what he doesn't seem to know is that OTA is mainly an Oliciter concept. I know that it might be hard to believe if you don't venture outside the Felicity/Olicity/OTA online fandom, but OTA is hardly EVER discussed, singled out or treated as anything THAT special by non-shipper fans. In fact, I've seen plenty of proof that a lot of online fans don't even know what it means. So, if the writers/producers have been consciously singling out O/F/D as somehow more special and foundational team members than Roy, Thea or Laurel, it seems as though they've been so subtle that many fans never caught the memo.


Anyway, let's return to the quote that is so often adduced as decisive proof of the superiority of OTA. First of all, the whole quote is quite contradictory, both if you look at it within the context of the show as a whole, and within the context of the specific 2X22 episode:

This started out with the three of us. It's time we get back to that.

The irony is that the team NEVER went "back to that". In fact, Laurel teamed up with Oliver and played a pivotal role in fighting the bad guys, even saving Oliver's life by hitting a Mirakuru soldier and using Oliver's bow to get both of them out of the debris. I mean, if you look at the context of this scene, it was right after Laurel had learned about the Oliver being Arrow, and the team's upcoming fight against the Mirakuru men. Laurel didn't comply, and Oliver should be happy for that, since she saved his ass! After that she went to Sara, and we got some really heartwarming sister bonding scenes. From your comments I take it that these scenes as pretty irrelevant in your eyes, as well as further proof that Laurel was never as important to Oliver as Felicity/Diggle. To me they show that Laurel always had her own independent storylines, rather than being an appendage to Oliver Queen or the team. So, scenes and storylines can clearly be interpreted in many ways, depending on your preferences.

Furthermore, in season three Laurel embarked on her Black Canary journey TOGETHER with O/F/D and Thea. IF the writers had truly wanted to make the point that mostly OTA matters, they would have written that episode differently. I know that "it started out" scene has been canonized as a tribute to the glory of ONE particular constellation of the team, but I'd rather see it as a means to create some tension within a specific episode, and maybe make an inside joke about the eternal Laurel/Felicity rivalry in the fandom.

First of all, the line is factually wrong, since it didn't at all start out with "the three of them". It started out with Diggle and Oliver, with Laurel giving the Hood substantial help with many of his cases. For a major part of season one Felicity was a side character who merely popped in every now and then until she joined Oliver's team in the FIFTEENTH episode. Furthermore, Roy had been a member since 2.16, which means that the team couldn't go back to O/F/D even if they had kept Laurel out. Given this, the line seems more like a bit of fanservice, like so many other lines pertaining to OTA or Felicity. Guggenheim and company know that ANY mention of/allusion to the Holy Trinity, Felicity or Olicity will make the #arrow social media explode, and since they crave for online buzz, they insert such mentions into their scenes. As far as I'm concerned, it would be better if they crafted plots and character portrayals that are interesting and make sense, rather than finding cheap and easy ways to gratify this or that social media fanbase.

Everyone has the right to feel that some characters or constellations are more important than others, for the show or for their viewing pleasure. However, when one particular fanbase endeavors to elevate or canonize their own preferences or fandom tropes to some general truths about the writing (or the writers' intentions) they often seems to come up with interpretations that IMHO don't tally with what is actually presented on screen. They're looking at the show through a pretty narrow lens, downplaying or even omitting anything that doesn't fit their own idea about what the show is about. Furthermore, they transfer their own reactions and feelings about characters or romance arcs to the online fandom as a whole or even the general audience. That is true for all fanbases, including the "comic book F-boys"....the only difference is that the Felicity/Olicity/OTA fandom has been more successful in influencing the showrunners (because no matter what Guggenheim says, many of his storytelling decisions have been influenced by Internet campaigning).

The end result of this partly fandom-fuelled transformation of "Arrow" hasn't been very encouraging, though. "Arrow" lost 1.5 million viewers between season four and five, after four seasons with fairly consistent ratings. And it cannot be ONLY because Olicity was put on a backburner, or because OTA was complemented with the newbies in season five. 300.000 viewers left after the season finale, when Felicity declared that she would be the only one who would stay with Oliver. IF the viewership at large is as enamoured with Felicity (or Oliver and Felicity as partners) as some folks claim, they would not have bailed between the seasons. I mean, most of them didn't know about the new team members (contrary to common belief, most casual viewers don't hunt the Internet for spoilers for the new season during hiatus). I'd say that most viewers just want a well-written, well-acted superhero action show, and they are not as fixated on certain characters or team constellations as some fans would like to believe (and I count Laurel fans among those fans as well). If a show stops providing good content, as "Arrow" did during its last two pretty dismal seasons, it's only natural that viewers leave, especially since there are so many new and better superhero shows right now.

Finally, as @PresidentLuthor pointed out, if you look at the actual storytelling there are many other characters (both in the past and the present) who have been just as pivotal to Oliver's development as a hero and a human being as Felicity and Diggle. These people include Laurel, Thea, Quentin and many flashback characters. Furthermore, for most non-shippers there are many aspects other than the OTA interaction which are just as enjoyable and important as watching O/F/D bonding scenes. In that respect, the tendence of some fans to elevate and promote this aspect of the show and Oliver's life to the detriment of many other, more interesting aspects, seems rather misguided, since "Arrow" is about so much more than Ollie's relationship with Felicity and Diggle.

[BkWurm1]

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evaba;8172725]I know that the Olicity fandom always brings up this quote as a "proof" that the writers/producers themselves endorsed the OTA concept since day one, and hence regard the Holy Trinity as more special/core/close than other members, even Green Arrow's canonical CB partners, such as Roy and Black Canary. That's not how the non-shipper fandom views it though...for them OTA is an exclusionary concept, concocted by the Felicity/Olicity/OTA fans to elevate their OC character (who was not at all that prominent as a character in seasons one and two) and make her seem more important than any other female character in the "Arrow" universe. The same applies to Diggle of course, and that may be the reason why David Ramsey so heavily promotes OTA at con appearances and interviews. He's looking out for number one, and seems unaware that few fans outside the Olicity fandom care that much about this constellation and their supposedly unique position in the "Arrow" mythos and in Oliver's life.

Anyway, I think that if you look at the context of this scene, it was right after Laurel had learned about the Oliver being Arrow, and his upcoming fight against the Mirakuru men. So, she offered to go with them, but then Ollie uttered this now famous and cherished line (at least among oliciters!). Anyway, if you remember Laurel didn't comply, and Oliver should be happy for that, since she saved his life! After that Laurel joined O/F/D in their fight,

Sorry, I just feel that that's a misinterpretation of what happened. Laurel offered to sit in the van with Felicity. That's how she wanted to help and was told, no. Then after she just randomly followed Oliver and was there to distract that guy that may or may not have gotten the drop on Oliver (which IIRC her being there ended up getting in the way of their plan to dump a tunnel on the mirikuru soldiers leaving them scrambling for a new plan) she then left because she saw she was just in the way. Then Sara saved her and then she got kidnapped at police headquarters. She did not join Oliver, Diggle and Felicity in the fight.

Laurel was added to the team against Oliver's preference by Diggle and Felicity.

Anyway, it's not about Laurel. What I said in my other post stands. The team when it was up and functioning as a team and that the show keeps on referencing back to is the three that were there for nearly a whole season, just them in the know.

And for the sake of clarification, David Ramsey doesn't have to elevate his original character by pushing the OTA. His character is firmly in the comics. He's in the current run even now with Ollie making love on beaches and mooning over his pretty bird. If he says he like the dynamic of the OTA, then I think you can believe that he does. And like me liking the same dynamic of the OTA, that's not saying that the other characters on the show have nothing to offer.

I mean, it didn't at all start out with "the three of us". It started out with Diggle and Oliver, with Laurel giving the Hood substantial help with many of his cases. For a major part of season one Felicity was a side character who popped in every now and then until she joined Oliver's team in the FIFTEENTH episode. So, in my eyes it's either an inside joke, a slip or just some fanservice.

Oliver feels differently. So do I.

As @PresidentLuthor pointed out, if you look at the actual storytelling there are many other characters (both in the past and the present) who have been just as pivotal to Oliver's development as a hero and a human being as Felicity and Diggle.

Not sure where I said only Diggle and Felicity were pivotal to Oliver's development? Only that I think the show works best when it honors the existence of the longest term team relationships.

And just to be clear, what started this conversation again was me just liking the interaction between Oliver, Diggle and Felicity in the episode, an episode that once again showcased Oliver, Diggle and Felicity's relationships with each other and said they all make each other better. I just happen to agree with the show and used that abbreviation that reflects that.

[evaba]

I rewrote some parts of my post, because I realized it was too confrontational. I think the facts still remain: after season two Laurel joined the team and participated in their missions, just like Roy, Thea and various other characters have done at one time or another. To me this proves that the singularity or superiority of OTA is more of a fandom trope/conception than a fictional truth. There are certainly scenes that show the O/F/D camaraderie, but in many other scenes and episodes you see Oliver developing close relationships/partnerships with other characters as well.

Furthermore, it's also still a fact that many fans do not consider the Oliver/Diggle/Felicity interaction the most important or enjoyable part of the show...they might enjoy other parts more, or even feel that Diggle is redundant (in the sense that his character is stagnant) or that Felicity/EBR is getting too much focus and screen time. It's true that the writers put in scenes which celebrate Oliver/Diggle/Felicity and their relationship, but in my eyes these scenes are somewhat repetitive and clumsy, and not something that in ITSELF makes their relationship special. It's like some of the Felicity praise that we got in season four (or three, I don't remember): for example, having Diggle tell Oliver that Felicity is one of the most badass and intelligent women in the world doesn't make me admire her more....it only makes me feel second-hand embarassment on her character's behalf, because it's so exaggerated. This is a clumsy, in-your-face writing that has plagued the show since season one. I mean, I like Laurel, but I still cringed when the writers had Moira tell Laurel that she made Oliver a better person (referring to their pre-Gambit relationship). I feel like, "don't tell me, dammit, show me"....and don't exaggerate to the point where appreciation of a character by another character sounds like "shilling".

As for David Ramsey, I was thinking more of his future on the actual show. I'm sure he considers it an honor to have Diggle included in a critically acclaimed and bestselling Green Arrow run, but it's his role on the TV version that pays his bills. Considering that a main character is killed off/written out almost every season, I have a hunch that his OTA enthusiasm partly has to do with the fact that as long as Diggle and Felicity remain favoured members of TA, his character will stay alive. As I said, there is nothing wrong with that....I'm sure that most "Arrow" actors say what (parts of) the audience want to hear, at cons etc.

Here are some nice clips from 2X22, the episode we're discussing, including the lovely Sara/Laurel scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fE-AZ-Jzt8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgmAlpbumCc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oh-BJ4Z3d4o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTbdIhbfMKI

[evaba]

Well, it's quite true that an awatar with Felicity or Felicity and Oliver usually equals Olicity shipper. But well, it's not that harmful - I myself spam a lot on Tumblr with Rene's, Quentin's and Black Siren or Laurel content (between spaming about "Supernatural") and here I'm using Carrie Cutter avatar (for a very simple reason - got tired explaining everyone that I'm a female ).

I probably chose the wrong word. By "avatar" I mean that SOME Felicity fans seem to project themselves into the fictional Felicity character, or view her as their representative within the fiction. So, when the OTA member that they identify with the most gets to utter lines that glorify the Holy Trinity, it is an extra bonus for them. BTW, there is nothing wrong with identifying with a fictional character....I know Laurel fans who have gone through similar experiences as her (depression, substance abuse) and therefore feel more for her than they do for other characters. It's just that sometimes Felicity's role as "fan insert" or "audience surrogate" is so supported or enhanced by the writers that she herself becomes less interesting as a character. One sign of this is that Felicity is not really allowed to have serious flaws and that other characters hardly ever rebuke or confront her about her actions. Although the writers have tried to take her down a dark(er) path this season, I'm sure that there will be no repercussions whatsoever when it comes to her relationships with other characters...she will be coddled and praised as usual, and if there are any negative reactions, they will probably be very mild.