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  1. #31
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    Just a small addition....I think that there is a world of difference between stating a personal preference for a specific character or team constellation (as you did in your post) and claiming that we ALL have to accept something as canon or more important than something else just because it is presented as such within the show itself (as many other Olicity fans sometimes do when discussing OTA). Audiences/fans have their own minds and interpretations, and sometimes they won't enjoy or accept what the writers tell them to enjoy/accept.

    For example, my impression from your posts throughout the years is that you were never convinced that Oliver was truly in love with Laurel or that Laurel was the kind of person she was portrayed as within the show (in fact, I think you find her character portrayal quite flawed from a writing/acting standpoint). On the other hand, it is evident from many scenes that the writers' intentions was to portray Oliver as being in love with Laurel in season one (and for this discussion it's irrelevant whether his picture of her was true/real or distorted by nostalgia or remorse). In this case, I have the impression that you didn't find the writers' intentions (implicit or overt) a really valid argument for the "canonicity" or value/validity of a certain relationship.

    If we transfer this line of reasoning to OTA, for many viewers/fans it doesn't matter that the writers tell us that Oliver believes that Felicity and Diggle are more special than other team members, since THEY don't feel the uniqueness of their connection. For them there is nothing special about O/F/D sharing scenes, going on missions or extolling their friendship with OgGangster toasts. The same applies to Olicity....the writers tried their damndest to convince us that Oliver and Felicity are engaged in an epic endgame romance throughout seasons three and four, and yet the backlash against the Olicity romance was pretty massive all over social media. Somewhere along the way something went wrong... If I'm to judge from social media, many fans found that the Olicity romance arc was both poorly written and too dominating in relation to other storylines and characters. Some even claimed that it was abusive and that it "destroyed" (or at least altered for the worse) both Oliver and Felicity. So, the writers' intentions were clearly at odds with the audience reception, at least among some fans. And these fans are by no means only comic book purists or Laurel stans....in fact, I know quite a few Olicity detractors who never liked Laurel and didn't look forward to a GA/BC romance.

    I guess what I want to say is that you cannot pick and choose how to deal with authorial intention versus audience reception. It might well be the case that the writers want us to believe in the special relationship between the OTA members, or that Felicity is Oliver's "everything"/soul mate/salvation, but that doesn't mean that I or anyone else have to accept or buy their vision....just like many fans didn't accept or buy other aspects of the show, like season one Lauriver or Laurel's BC arc.
    Last edited by evaba; 02-15-2017 at 11:20 PM.

  2. #32
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    While I think Diggle and Felicity do have important roles to play on Oliver's journey, basically my view is that for the vets (I include Thea and Quentin here), they are all going to have to prove their worth to me going into S6. Why are they still critical to the team and how are they still relevant to a series entering its sixth season? If the showrunners can't or won't come up with meaningful answers to these, then I feel it should be open season on any of the vets and they'll have to do much better than "they've been around awhile."

    If they can make the case that any or all the newbies will add value to the series that some of the vets no longer do, then I think I'm open to seeing a bit of a vet culling, exile, or even just a relocation to another DC series. Felicity may be in the unique position (curse?) of being the main love interest, but as plenty of fans have observed this hasn't exactly been to her benefit story or character wise. That's why I'm hoping this dark arc will give her something meaningful beyond adding angst fodder for Olicity. She needs it.

    My big objection with OTA is not in saying Diggle and Felicity aren't important to Oliver and the show - obviously they are, though after 5 years the question of adding value to the series going forward must be asked of all the vets: Quentin and Thea too. My issue has been how the OTA label has been used externally in marginalizing anyone (Sara, and esp Laurel) who dared to intrude on the fan driven entity, as if no matter what new members did for the team, it still isn't good enough to join the OTA union. What Roy did was huge, "game changing" even, ... but he's still not OTA. Both Sara and Laurel died for the cause, and even though Sara got a LoT lifesaving vest, they're not OTA either. The leaps in logic to exclude them just to elevate Diggle and Felicity fall under the weight of what these "non-OTAers" have done for Ollie, his journey and the show.

    Diggle and Felicity are important. To the exclusion of everyone else who doesn't fit into such a narrow OTA definition? Absolutely not. Oliver could build a veritable justice league with all the people who helped him prior to S1.

    Borrowing from Nick Fury again: stuff like this gives me trust issues re: putting too much stock in fan labels external to what happens on screen.

  3. #33
    Site Groupie Shelby Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amarice View Post
    ...No orignal OTA gangsta narration spotted...
    Agree that's what I thought, but I couldn't be sure. One, b/c I am relatively insensitive to "OTA." By which I mean, I don't especially notice if Ollie/Dig/Felicity are together in a scene, any more so than any other grouping of team members that might be in a scene. Also, I only know that OTA is defined to be those 3 b/c of what I have heard discussed on boards, not b/c it is something that "means" OTA to me personally. If I had to say what I consider Oliver's original team to have been, that would be Ollie & Dig, for me. Everything after that has just been a fluid group of characters, coming and going. A team that is in constant flux, with no fixed starting point, except, again for me, the team-up of Oliver & Dig. Dig was the first person Ollie let in on his secret, so that was the end of Ollie working solo and the point at which I would consider Oliver to have started working as part of a team. Plenty of different perspectives on this out there. That's just mine.

    The other reason why I might not have noticed what was said in any Ollie/Dig/Felicity group scenes is b/c the only scene that sticks out in my mind w/ the 3 of them in this ep, was the one where Oliver discovers Dig - enraged, like he's high on meth - whaling away on their hostage (or informer, or whatever...). The torture scene. That was such a ridiculous scene in my mind b/c Dig was so over the top. Just didn't work for me at all. I think I can legitimately say that David (yes, I'm talking about the actor and his technique here) was literally ROARING. So I became distracted and fascinated by that. Totally pulled me out of the scene. It was such good roaring that I started thinking about how hard that is to pull off for an actor: to roar. And while I think it made Dig look ridiculous (having the character written to be so over the top in the scene), I must commend David on his roaring skills, and I think surely somewhere out there is a role and a character where David can "shine" as a roarer. And so I hope someday he gets that role (but that moment wasn't this one; at least not for this particular storyline IMO) Then, the next distraction in that scene for me was Felicity's entry and how EBR's acting choices seemed so melodramatic and over the top when she came into the room. (Unlike say, in her earlier scene in the van w/ Rory where I thought EBR did very well). Thus, between my lack of buy-in for idea of OTA as Ollie/Dig/F and my being utterly distracted by the ridiculous behavior of Dig and EBR's melodramatic entrance, I hardly noticed what the characters actually said. They probably could have broken out into some self-congratulatory dialogue about being OTA, but I got so "taken out" of the scene by all the melodrama that I doubt I would have even noticed.

  4. #34
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    evaba;8172728]I rewrote some parts of my post, because I realized it was too confrontational. I think the facts still remain: after season two Laurel joined the team and participated in their missions, just like Roy, Thea and various other characters have done at one time or another. To me this proves that the singularity or superiority of OTA is more of a fandom trope/conception than a fictional truth. There are certainly scenes that show the O/F/D camaraderie, but in many other scenes and episodes you see Oliver developing close relationships/partnerships with other characters as well.

    Furthermore, it's also still a fact that many fans do not consider the Oliver/Diggle/Felicity interaction the most important or enjoyable part of the show...they might enjoy other parts more, or even feel that Diggle is redundant (in the sense that his character is stagnant) or that Felicity/EBR is getting too much focus and screen time. It's true that the writers put in scenes which celebrate Oliver/Diggle/Felicity and their relationship, but in my eyes these scenes are somewhat repetitive and clumsy, and not something that in ITSELF makes their relationship special. ".
    I don't see the correlation of new characters being added to the team and me wanting and enjoying it when the show touches back and recognizes that before everyone was added to the team, Oliver, Diggle and Felicity were the team for about a year back when the show was really finding it's way. One does not negate the other. Just like that fact that Oliver was engaged to Felicity does not negate the fact that he once dated and considered himself in love with Laurel.

    I really am not trying to convince anyone that they have to like the relationship between the three people commonly identified by the nickname OTA, just that their relationship did and does exist on the show. Again, not saying anyone has to find it superior to other relationships, but I would appreciate if people stopped trying to convince me that episodes 1-15 through whenever Roy and Sara became active on the team never happened. Or that I shouldn't enjoy it or be happy that the show does on the occasion remember it in the same manner as I do.

    The only thing I argued was that the concept was not something imagined and made up strictly by fans. That the concept was taken from what was on the show. I'm not insisting that anyone else has to equally enjoy it the way I do but I'm not going to be Gaslighted into believing the trio never existed as partners.

    And as much as a fact that many fans do not consider the Oliver/Diggle/Felicity interaction the most important or even an enjoyable part of the show, it's equally in fact that many other fans do. Again, I'm not arguing that anyone has to fine them special, just that I do and that it's not something that came from no where.


    Just a small addition....I think that there is a world of difference between stating a personal preference for a specific character or team constellation (as you did in your post) and claiming that we ALL have to accept something as canon or more important than something else just because it is presented as such within the show itself (as many other Olicity fans sometimes do when discussing OTA). Audiences/fans have their own minds and interpretations, and sometimes they won't enjoy or accept what the writers tell them to enjoy/accept.
    In this case, I was pushing back against the notion that the very concept of Oliver, Diggle and Felicity having been a team and one worth watching and liking came strictly out of the fandom, so in this case I do think that pointing to it's origin in the show isn't about interpretation or what others like or enjoy. My point remains that before anyone else, for nearly a years's worth of episodes, Team Arrow was Oliver, Diggle and Felicity. (As identified by Felicity in the episode where Roy was introduced) And that during that time, I fell in love with Arrow largely in part to the interaction on screen every week between those actors. That happened. No one else is obligated to feel the same way, but they were on screen together before anyone else was let in on the secret. And every time the show remembers to honor that legacy, I find I enjoy the show. No one else has to, but the conceit of Oliver, Diggle and Felicity being a team before anyone else was on the team, isn't made up out of wishful thinking from a segment of the fandom.
    For example, my impression from your posts throughout the years is that you were never convinced that Oliver was truly in love with Laurel or that Laurel was the kind of person she was portrayed as within the show (in fact, I think you find her character portrayal quite flawed from a writing/acting standpoint). On the other hand, it is evident from many scenes that the writers' intentions was to portray Oliver as being in love with Laurel in season one (and for this discussion it's irrelevant whether his picture of her was true/real or distorted by nostalgia or remorse). In this case, I have the impression that you didn't find the writers' intentions (implicit or overt) a really valid argument for the "canonicity" or value/validity of a certain relationship.
    I can't dismiss how Oliver's view of Laurel was distorted by nostalgia or guilt as irrelevant because that was exactly how I was able to account for the disconnect between the stated and the shown on the show. So that by the end of Laurel's run on the show, how the show thought of her relationship with Oliver and how I viewed it, was one in the same. It may have taken some time for the show to explicitly line up with what I assumed or imagined was the explanation, but it did end up matching up.

    If we transfer this line of reasoning to OTA, for many viewers/fans it doesn't matter that the writers tell us that Oliver believes that Felicity and Diggle are more special than other team members, since THEY don't feel the uniqueness of their connection. For them there is nothing special about O/F/D sharing scenes, going on missions or extolling their friendship with OgGangster toasts.
    I'm not asking anyone to enjoy their relationship because in show Oliver finds it special, I'm asking for it to be acknowledged that their relationship being considered special isn't a concept strictly imagined by fandom.

    The same applies to Olicity....the writers tried their damndest to convince us that Oliver and Felicity are engaged in an epic endgame romance throughout seasons three and four, and yet the backlash against the Olicity romance was pretty massive in seasons three and four. Somewhere along the way something went wrong... If I'm to judge from social media, many fans found that the Olicity romance arc was both poorly written and too dominating in relation to other storylines and characters. Some even claimed that it was abusive and that it "destroyed" (or at least altered for the worse) both Oliver and Felicity. So, clearly the writers' intentions were clearly at odds with the audience reception, at least among a part of the fanbase. And these fans are by no means only comic book purists or Laurel stans...
    I remain very confident that no one enjoyed the manufactured drama that ended the relationship and yes, there was massive backlash over that, but I would maintain that backlash over an aspect of the relationship does not negate that Oliver and Felicity had a relationship on the show or that they remain a very popular pairing if judging by the internet (since that also seems to be the criteria for deeming the a mess) Is the blush off the rose because of careless writing? Yes, but since my argument about the OTA is that it's existence was something supported by the show rather than just a fan made concept, then whether anyone liked it or Olicity doesn't matter, just whether it existed.

    I don't deny that Laurel and Oliver were ever a couple just because I didn't like them as one or find them special. Some people shipped them hard. And whether I think it was a lousy ship or not, the conceit that they were a viable couple at least partially came from the show (and partly from leftover comic goodwill but that's beside the point). I see the argument that says OTA is just a fan made concept to be like if I said Laurliver was just a fan made concept. Personal enjoyment doesn't factor into whether it originated from the fans or the show.

    I guess what I want to say is that you cannot pick and choose how to deal with authorial intention versus audience reception. It might well be the case that the writers want us to believe in the special relationship between the OTA members, or that Felicity is Oliver's "everything"/soul mate/salvation, but that doesn't mean that I or anyone else have to accept or buy their vision....just like many fans didn't accept or buy other aspects of the show, like season one Lauriver or Laurel's BC arc.
    Again, I'm not trying to convert anyone to loving OTA or their scenes are extra special, just that it exists as a concept within the show. Agree or disagree with how well it works, but it's not something I'm imagining.

    Still not saying that no one else matters or that Oliver, Diggle, and Felicity don't also have strong relationships with other people not in what I'd consider the OTA, but just that I do find find that that trio of relationships greatly adds to my enjoyment of the show and the lack of it, greatly reduces my enjoyment. Really, that was my whole point. I like scenes with Oliver, Diggle and Felicity.
    Last edited by BkWurm1; 02-14-2017 at 04:29 PM.

  5. #35
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Kent
    The other reason why I might not have noticed what was said in any Ollie/Dig/Felicity group scenes is b/c the only scene that sticks out in my mind w/ the 3 of them in this ep, was the one where Oliver discovers Dig - enraged, like he's high on meth - whaling away on their hostage (or informer, or whatever...). The torture scene. That was such a ridiculous scene in my mind b/c Dig was so over the top. Just didn't work for me at all. I think I can legitimately say that David (yes, I'm talking about the actor and his technique here) was literally ROARING. So I became distracted and fascinated by that. Totally pulled me out of the scene. It was such good roaring that I started thinking about how hard that is to pull off for an actor: to roar ...
    This is how I felt. What was up with Diggle. He was uncharacteristically ballistic, to the point where Oliver is the stable-looking one. The guy was roaring so much, I think Vladimir Putin might have heard him in the Kremlin. Maybe his time in prison did 'break' him and he started using speed, meth, it's the only explanation for his behaviour to go from 0 to 60 with little more than plot reasons/episode specific bloodlust.

    Roaring You're right, it did take me out of the scenes and even the ep. If there was some OTA vibe from the ep, a lot of it got muffled by Diggle's Hulk rage.

    Let's take a page from Cisco and vibe the future ...

    (Season 8 - Oliver and Diggle find themselves in the lair of the Court of Owls (illuminati-like organization in Batman). It is certain death for the duo, as 100's of Owl assassins flock around them.)

    "Diggle: We'll never get out of this one.

    Ollie: Sure we can. You can just go bat$#!t crazy like in Russia. You can take on 50 of these dudes, no problem.

    Diggle: Whatever happens in Russia, stays in Russia.

    Ollie: No, now that it's out there, why were you so angry then? You took up meth while in prison? Dude, you were an OOC rage-oholic. What gives?

    Diggle: Lyla nixed my plans for a man cave. I guess I was acting up.

    Ollie: Hmm. I thought it was due to Andy, you killing him, the guilt....

    Diggle: Who? Nah. I forgot all about him after Flashpoint. I was working on my plans for Junior to get into college after that. I want him to land a juicy football scholarship, cuz daddy sure ain't footing the bill in 2035. My super rage is like a light switch, y'know?

    Ollie: Cool. Now, Diggle? *points at assassins* SMASH!!!

    Diggle: *smirks* Rooooarrrrrr!!!!!"

  6. #36
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    Shelby, your post made me ROAR with laughter! Thanks for offering your whimsy and slightly zany perspective on the #OTA issue!

  7. #37
    Forum Whiz TheSecretVampire's Avatar
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    I want to see more of those missions where only Oliver and Dinah go on....that was a really great start for those 2.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSecretVampire View Post
    I want to see more of those missions where only Oliver and Dinah go on....that was a really great start for those 2.
    I will have to agree of wanting to see more of Oliver and Dinah.

    If they are going with Dinah Drake being the main BC until series end type of deal, then I can live with that. She works and they seem to be working on building a good relationship with Oliver and her, plus she seems to fit with the rest of the team well.

  9. #39
    Forum Whiz Amarice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    Beg to differ. Arrow is a show built around a number of key relationships and characters. Oliver Queen is essential for the Green Arrow, but Arrow requires a lot more than just Oliver Queen. That's not the kind of show it has ever been.
    The show is titled "Arrow" for a reason. It's about Oliver Queen, his mission and him fulfilling the promise he had made to his father... of failing to do so. Neither Felicity, nor Dig are indispensable. Their paths entwines with the path of Oliver Queen, but if they leave, the story of Green Arrow will continue without them. If Oliver dies the story dies with him. In such a scenario they might another person trying to continue Green Arrow's legacy. Roy or Speedy, or Connor Hawke, like in the episode of LOT, but it would be a different show (only “Robin of Sherwood” managed to have two Robins, one replacing another – and it made sense).

    Agree though that without the help of other people Ollie wouldn't last long and probably got himself killed (or arrested). But his story can be told by interaction with different characters, and it's not said that the characters introduced in season 1 will stay by his side till the end, if "Arrow" will last more than 6 seasons.

    Out of curiosity - could you imagine yourself a show titled for example "Ghost Fox Goddess"? But without Oliver and Olicity, and without Green Arrow's story, just about Felicity?

    You mentioned somewhere the current run of the comics, where Ollie "moans" over his pretty bird. Now let me assure you that unlike season 4 of "Arrow", where most of the "action" focused on Oliver putting Felicity on the pedestal and baking omelettes instead of saving the city (fake wedding, hidden ring and The Return of the Love Fern being the greatest twists), in the current run GA's and BC's relationship doesn't overshadow what is the most important in Oliver's story - fighting for the little guys. It's not about Ollie building a treehouse with Dinah, but about GA trying to make his city a better place. The first arc The Life and Death of Oliver Queen was really excellent and included all tropes I wanted to see in Ollie’s story – something that season 4 of "Arrow" completely missed (season 5 at least tries to repair some damage). The comic is not without flaws, though. The archery looks crappy - I really don't understand when the artists couldn't do a proper research, and I found last arc rather disappointing and repetitive. Wouldn't exactly say that there is any "OTA" present. I haven't noticed Ollie, Dinah and Dig sidelining Emi or Henry. Moreover it doesn't seem that Dig and Ollie are great buddies to start with. There was some conflict between them (no idea what they were referencing, as it happened in earlier run).

    The funny thing about "OTA" is that if was presented like in 5x12 I probably wouldn't had much objections. But the damage they've done in early season 4 with putting "OTA" all over the place made me skeptical about the whole concept and extra cautious whenever Dig, Ollie and Felicity are put together on the screen. In season 5 it was Felicity who had win some of my sympathy points when she mentioned that there is no A and B team, but one Team Arrow.

    Quote Originally Posted by evaba View Post
    I probably chose the wrong word. By "avatar" I mean that SOME Felicity fans seem to project themselves into the fictional Felicity character, or view her as their representative within the fiction. So, when the OTA member that they identify with the most gets to utter lines that glorify the Holy Trinity, it is an extra bonus for them. BTW, there is nothing wrong with identifying with a fictional character....I know Laurel fans who have gone through similar experiences as her (depression, substance abuse) and therefore feel more for her than they do for other characters. It's just that sometimes Felicity's role as "fan insert" or "audience surrogate" is so supported or enhanced by the writers that she herself becomes less interesting as a character. One sign of this is that Felicity is not really allowed to have serious flaws and that other characters hardly ever rebuke or confront her about her actions. Although the writers have tried to take her down a dark(er) path this season, I'm sure that there will be no repercussions whatsoever when it comes to her relationships with other characters...she will be coddled and praised as usual, and if there are any negative reactions, they will probably be very mild.
    I see. I myself started to sympathize more with Laurel in the middle of season 2 – when all odds were against her. But she managed to pick herself up and emerge stronger.

    I think that the writers make Felicity more harm than good - although I find her again quite likeable in season 5, there're still issues. The same can be said about other characters, and to be honest I've noticed some pattern established that characters start to mourn/regret/do something with a lag, when Plot Demands. Then again Felicity is hardly ever held responsible for her wrong decisions (it seems that she screwed up almost as many actions as Wild Dog!)

    Ah, fan fiction, my favorite topic. 90% of everything is crap, no mater if it’s fan fiction, books or movies. (Okay, in Arrow’s case it might be even 95%.) There might be fans who project themselves into Felicity character as she was the most average person, surprisingly normal among the whole bunch with characters of issues (what was not necessary bad – not everyone needs to have The Past and PTSD), they are Stemily shippers, but there is also quite a number of fans, who have some distance to their favorite ship. Rabid fanbase is just the most visible unfortunately. They would want to shred your to pieces if you dare to criticize their ship... But it’s the same in every fandom. Try to say that you’re not a fan of the idea of Wincest or Destiel, or Johnlock. In Olicity case we can at least say that one side was interested, before the show answered to fanservice and the narration was bend to cater to a selected fanbase. But I’m still greatly surprised that someone can see incest in the relationship of Winchester brothers (I was never brave enough to check how much Queencest is around on AO3 ).

    Overall my main problem with fans of some ships is that they have problem with the fact that I’ve the problem with the concept of their ship. I get why people like Olicity, they have every right to, but it’s not my cup of tea. [joke]#Carriver4eva[/joke]

    Btw. I had some converstations with Olicity fans where we were able to meet on some middle ground (there is 8633 Olicity fics on AO3 and I guess mine is the only one that is one-sided ). It's quite interesting that the same scenes in the show can be interpreted so differently. (Or so seemingly unsignificant things like using name Ollie.)

    I think that Felicity also can inspire some fans to do something positive. If someone let’s say started to study informatics it would be a good thing. In early seasons Felicity showed also bravery, for example when despite her fear, she offered to be a bait for the Dollmaker. That was Felicity I liked, and that was ruined by preposterous scenes when she fired a machine gun or was flying in Ray’s suit. But if some girl or woman will think that by the power of love she can change for better a guy with issues (season 4, omelettes, light of the life etc.) – well, that won’t be a good inspiration.

  10. #40
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Out of curiosity - could you imagine yourself a show titled for example "Ghost Fox Goddess"? But without Oliver and Olicity, and without Green Arrow's story, just about Felicity?
    Yes, it probably would be a great show but I sincerely doubt she's be the only character and it would succeed or fail IMO based on how her main character clicks with the rest of the cast. Of course, that show wouldn't be Arrow at all and the Arrow I was sold on wasn't just Oliver Queen and his angst. I almost stopped after the first two episodes because by himself, I don't find Oliver that compelling or interesting or likable and so far the new characters introduced this year haven't clicked with him in a way that opens up his character like I feel is needed to make the show work, so not just any new person added to the cast will keep Arrow being Arrow or even Oliver being Oliver.

    But if some girl or woman will think that by the power of love she can change for better a guy with issues (season 4, omelettes, light of the life etc.) – well, that won’t be a good inspiration.
    Just a reminder, Felicity isn't the one that tried to change Oliver. He's the one that didn't want the life of darkness anymore and didn't want to be the Arrow any longer. He's the one that wanted to live in suburbia, make perfect omelettes, and extol the virtues of slow cookers with neighbors. Felicity is the one that wanted back on the team and encouraged him to return as well.

  11. #41
    Forum Whiz Amarice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    Just a reminder, Felicity isn't the one that tried to change Oliver. He's the one that didn't want the life of darkness anymore and didn't want to be the Arrow any longer. He's the one that wanted to live in suburbia, make perfect omelettes, and extol the virtues of slow cookers with neighbors. Felicity is the one that wanted back on the team and encouraged him to return as well.
    ...and it was completely unbelievable transition of the character. Or rather regression. Because people don't suddenly make 180 turn, and PTSD doesn't get cured on its own. Thankfully season 5, despite its flaws, helped to get that Ivy Town "prefect" image out of my head. Than again I often bake omelettes for Sunday breakfast.

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