View Poll Results: What did you think?

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  • 10 - Great

    3 20.00%
  • 9

    2 13.33%
  • 8

    3 20.00%
  • 7

    3 20.00%
  • 6

    0 0%
  • 5

    0 0%
  • 4

    0 0%
  • 3

    3 20.00%
  • 2

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  • 1 - No more chances

    1 6.67%
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  1. #31
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    I enjoyed this episode - especially the flashbacks. Talia is great and I don't see why she could not have been a teacher of Yao Fei just because she is younger. Or is she - I don't quite remember the year she appeared in Legends as a girl?

    I loved it that she used that grip on Oliver - the very same one he used on Detective Lance in one of the first episodes of season one.

    Why is Felicity always wearing clothes agreeing with her moods? Otherwise I like the storyline for her so far.

    Good to have John back.

  2. #32
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    Maybe some viewers are automatically onside with Dinah because of all the comics canon nods, after one episode. I'm not there yet, but that's fine for them if they are enjoying the series.

    I don't think it means a) that they now reject Laurel as BC or b) that Dinah doesn't have to earn her keep or prove her worth any longer. This would be a huge assumption to make about Laurel fans who haven't rejected Tina/Dinah out of hand.

    Sure, there's reason to be skeptical about Arrow (or heck, about the whole Berlantiverse), but as a fan of Arrow and Laurel, I don't think we have to "prove" this skepticism by being negative about Dinah and the show at all times.

    All I'm saying is, for many who liked Laurel, not throwing Dinah under the bus by default doesn't also mean that they've forgotten BC or that Dinah doesn't have to prove her worth. Dinah will have to prove herself, however we wish to interpret this. In contrast, the show or fans can't pretend that Laurel doesn't have a legacy within the show to honour/live up to either and that they can't just hand the mantle to anyone. It must be earned.

    Whether fans like or dislike Dinah, she still has to prove her worth as a Team Arrow member -- never mind her much longer (and much more difficult) journey to somehow become Laurel's successor as BC.

    They could have a dozen subsequent Canaries, but for many fans it will be Laurel as their BC, she's the one who was crafted to be BC to begin with since day one. None of this fallout lands on KC, she did the best with the material she was given -- their writing for her wasn't that great, even when they decided to make her BC.

    If we're using "killing" as a disqualifier for Arrow's version of BC, then only Laurel is in the clear, if we're using a very limited pass-fail standard. I don't judge a show like this in such stark black and white parameters with no room for nuance, but whatever.

    Sara, the one who many fans rushed to embrace as BC (Canon be damned, if we recall, and the fans were fine tossing canon out the window to fast track her to just be BC - a view I was never on board with), is also ineligible for what I've called her skewered moral compass -- never mind all the blood on her hands.

    It was okay to ditch BC canon when it was Sara killing, but somehow not okay now when it's Dinah doing it? Food for thought, Arrowheads. It's funny that Sara actually killing was gleefully ignored or brushed off back then by some fans, in the rush to supplant Laurel and make Sara the show's BC.

    Obeying BC canon didn't seem to be much of a problem when they were backing Sara while Laurel was still on the show and not even in the BC on-deck circle yet.

    To paraphrase Nick Fury in Captain America 2, stuff like this gives me trust issues re: taking the fandom too seriously.

    As for this season, they're probably meshing Dinah's journey too closely to Oliver's Hood one esp. re: killing and this would be what bothers some fans, myself included, to some degree. I think they could have shown that Dinah has a messed up life without having to mirror Ollie's killer Hood mentality and still have Ollie offer her a path to redemption etc.

    So it would be the killing aspect that is problematic -- comics BC's code is closer to the 'laws of Batman', considering she and BOP were actually based in Gotham for long stretches. And if this were Gotham City, I would expect BC to abide by them. Batman's city, Batman's rules.

    As it's SC, it's Oliver's city and obviously he doesn't go by the no-kill rule any longer. Doesn't mean he's right about it, but that's how he rolls now.

    Dinah killing may rule her out if we're sticking with BC by-the-laws-of-Batman, 'comics or bust' litmus test. The show itself isn't going with the laws of Batman code for Dinah, so for them, killing isn't a deal breaker for Ollie or even to join his team.

    It all depends how "committed" fans are in expecting Dinah to embody 1) an actual comics-to-the-letter BC, or what I'd call 2) the CW-spun Arrow version of BC: one who has some canonical elements, but veers off that template in many other ways. My view is we're likely to get the second version.

    I've read BC comics for years -- I'm actually more familiar with BC than GA -- so I've long reconciled myself to the fact that I'm likely not going to get a 100% canonical BC on TV. I've felt Laurel approached the closest to that in spirit by the end of her run. She wasn't perfect, no fault of KC, any glitches land on showrunners and writers. An actor can't do much with a character that isn't given much to work with until the very end. Their "we ran out of story for her" excuse in killing her off was nonsensical -- they didn't give her enough story, for years.

    In essence, I think there are extremes on either side -- both in rejecting Dinah as an Arrow teammate, and in rushing to embrace her as the show's definitive BC ... after just one episode.

    I land in the middle: I'll give her a shot in earning a spot with Team Arrow aka like Wild Dog, Ragman etc. as a generic teammate. As for earning BC's mantle ... it'll take more than a few canon easter eggs and only one episode for her to earn the BC mantle.

    It will take time to fit into Team Arrow, and much, much longer to earn the mantle of a major character who died with it.

    I'm actually on-side with the idea that all the vets have to prove their worth and continued value to the show going into S6, not just Dinah and the newbies (who obviously have to prove their worth for the rest of this season and beyond, if they last that long).

    No one should get a default pass after S5 when the bloated team is culled.

  3. #33
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    The name Dinah Drake doesn't automatically make her a suitable BC. This character, the fake Drake can't ever earn being BC. Because she's not Dinah Drake. She's a new character with the name slapped on her. The character ever being BC has been forfeited already. Especially considering that Dinah Drake is, whether the show ever acknowledged it or not, Dinah Laurel Lance's mom, even though she was INO on Arrow too. It isn't Drake's character. Unlike some would say, this isn't the New 52 version, because that isn't Dinah Drake, as established in Rebirth. It's DLL, just bearing the name DD. And the only reason that is, is because reality was tampered with. And also considering that that version wasn't the 4th Dinah in the New 52, or the 2nd Dinah to be the BC, wasn't given the title by GA, no version of Dinah Drake has ever been a cop who was tortured whose partner was murdered, wasn't a multiple killer offender and she wasn't the 3rd Canary in general. The name, along with having it in this way being stupid and poorly written, doesn't make it the character. Sara could've been the BC, as long as the name was the only thing that was really different about the character. Though having a different name would be pointless if she had every other major character part, but that's neither here nor there. Laurel is still the best adapted and only real BC this show has had. Having a sonic scream and cool fighting abilities doesn't make a character BC. Just like cool fighting abilities and shooting arrows doesn't make a character GA. Or having cool fighting abilities and a bat costume doesn't make a character Batman. Or having a character who wears red and blue and flies doesn't make them Superman. The character's origins are apart of their characters. GA is stranded on an island. BM sees his parents murdered. SM is sent to earth from the dying krypton and raised by farmers. You don't have that, you don't have the characters. This show isn't an elseworlds. It's an adaption. And in adaption you respect the hero character's origins. Have a very great day! God bless you all!

  4. #34
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freawaru View Post
    I enjoyed this episode - especially the flashbacks. Talia is great and I don't see why she could not have been a teacher of Yao Fei just because she is younger. Or is she - I don't quite remember the year she appeared in Legends as a girl?
    As far as I recall, in Legends we saw Talia in the year 1960. And I'd say she was about 10 years olds at the time, meaning she was born around 1950. We never heard about a date of birth for Yao Fei, but I'd say he was about 40-45 when he met Oliver in 2007. Meaning Yao Fei was born around 1962-1967. So Yao Fei is actually younger than Talia. It's the exposure to the Lazarus Pit that makes Talia look so much younger than him.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    As far as I recall, in Legends we saw Talia in the year 1960. And I'd say she was about 10 years olds at the time, meaning she was born around 1950. We never heard about a date of birth for Yao Fei, but I'd say he was about 40-45 when he met Oliver in 2007. Meaning Yao Fei was born around 1962-1967. So Yao Fei is actually younger than Talia. It's the exposure to the Lazarus Pit that makes Talia look so much younger than him.
    Makes sense. Thank you.

  6. #36
    Forum Regular Sure-Oz's Avatar
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    Tina Boland was useless to have on this mantle when they easily could've done a redemption with black siren to be the new bc...That would've pleased the Laurel side imo since they seem to not want to bring LL back on the writing side. Felicity is probably the reason why KC is just less in this show. Not sure why KC would come back of she's not going to be used.

  7. #37
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    I don't think it's fair to judge the show for not doing what we wanted them to do with Black Siren. It's only fair to judge them for what they did do with Tina Boland and Laurel.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sure-Oz View Post
    The end made me want to vomit...Whats the point of having Katie Cassidy come back again? This character would be better as a stand alone badass not BC again.


    As of this moment, her return was pretty pointless. Now, if they plan on doing something positive with Black Siren, then we'll see. Her return to me was nothing of added value. Sure, it might've pleased the KC fans but that moment quickly went to waste side by the end of the episode.

  9. #39
    Forum Whiz Amarice's Avatar
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    It was not as bad as thought after reading in the spoiler section the coverstation between Ollie and Tina/Dinah. The truth is that they've never should kill Laurel in the first place and introducing Tina/Dinah proves that - "no more storylines argument" doesn't hold much weight since we already had Adrian Chase who still has quite a lot of stuff to do as DA (possible storyline for Laurel no 1). It also turned out that the show retconed itself again and introduced E-1 meta-human with sonic scream (possible storyline for Laurel no 2).

    People were comparing this move to Jimmy Olsen situation. I haven't seen much of Smallville (thankfully!), but in "Arrow's" case I see rather an attempt to recreate situation from "Robin of Sherwood" where Robin of Loxley is killed and Robert of Huntingdon steps in to fill his place.

    Mind that while I think "Arrow" will be miles behind "Robin of Sherwood" when in comes to storytelling (for the very simple reason that there should never kill off Black Canary in the show about Green Arrow for the sake of cheap drama and in order to give more screen time Love Fern and pancakes) they've tried rather hard to introduce someone who will continue Laurel's legacy, not retcon her out of existence. It's kind of sad to see that after Laurel's death Oliver starts to truly value her (here I see season 5 making an attempt to reduce the damage season 4 made x_x). They don't downplay her role (unlike the case of Amanda Waller, when after her death she is presented as incompetent and dependent from some Mr. Government Glasses Guy).

    Having said that I'll treat Tina/Dinah as another vigilante who has to earn her place in the team. Robert of Huntingdon didn't become Robin Hood on the span of one episode. Due to the possibility of endless angst I would love to see Black Siren redemption arc, but I guess KC won't show up in "Arrow" for more than single episodes. Overall for the time being I'm staying rather civil toward this particular storyline - if Tina/Dinah was introduced only because Every Team Needs a Chick then it would be a waste of a character. The first impression was good (although The Past was kind of random), but since I like slow development I think that Laurel being affected by the accelerator explosion back in season 2 and dealing with becoming meta would be interesting. But she didn't get that storyline because the lack of planning on the writers side. That's a shame.

    I liked flashbacks in Russia, and Ollie finally becoming the Hood (it's kinda convinient that Talia is the one who gives him the outfit, and brings notebook and the hood, but who cares, since it was awesome to finally see Ollie suited up < I'm a hopeless case when it comes to season 1 outfit and The Original Bow, and I have an avatar with Carrie for a reason ).

    Ollie's logic about killing/not killing dilemma is rather lost on me. So slaughtering 30+ guys in the heat of the battle is good, but not killing the Big Bad will make Tina/Dinah better? Ollie, srsly?

    At this point is simply ridiculus how they show the aftermatch of Billy's death. Ah, wait, sorry, how they are not showing it. Does Felicity even remember that she had a boyfriend a week ago? Couldn't they at least give her a line that she focuses on the work to not think about Billy? Btw. did he had funeral? Because I have a vision of him still lying in the morgue, because nobody collected the body. x_x

    It's a very good question how Rene managed to eat that huge multilayer cheesburger. I was as surprised as Curtis. I liked Rory in this episode - bad sign when I start to like somebody. That guy is dead.

    Overall I found the episode quite watchable, despite having quite a number of logic holes (as usual).

  10. #40
    Site Groupie Shelby Kent's Avatar
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    Finally got around to watching this, out of curiosity about Tina. Already knew about Tina being future BC and also had heard speculation they would try to make her a "Dina" so no big surprise for me. I don't care if Tina's going to be BC b/c when I watch this show, I only watch out of curiosity now. I'm not invested in any particular outcome anymore, so everything is fine w/ me. If show's excellent: that's fine. Mediocre: that's fine. A repeat of S4 worst-ep-trainwrecks: that's fine.

    I thought the show accomplished what it set out to do: introduce Tina/Dina, give her a bit of backstory; give Oliver opportunity to find & begin process of becoming mentor to someone else to kind of replace Laurel; and set up Felicity's move back into hacker-world and hopefully for her sake an independent storyline.

    It was kind of funny watching them review candidates for potential BC, by which I mean it was quite klunky. Kind of made me think this is what it would be like, say, if after Prince Charming found and married Cinderella, poor old Cinderella died so then Prince Charming decided he needed to get another Cinderella, and went about it by finding the first available woman who could fit into those glass slippers. Slippers fit: mission accomplished! In this case, as someone on the team helpfully pointed out, once Ollie finds his next BC, why, no worries he can just put a blond wig on her and that'll be that! (this did distract me, as I began to wonder: well, what if Tina doesn't WANT to wear a blond wig??? Will Oliver just cram one on her head?? And what would that scene look like: Oliver and Tina wrestling as he struggles to force her to wear a blond wig so that she will fit his idea of BC....hmmm That could be a really weird scene. )

    Tina was fine. Though a few times the tough-girl act felt a bit forced to me. Seems like she and Oliver can relate to each other, both having ventured down the dark path of killing and vengeance. I didn't feel that Oliver's screeching, "You killed that guy!!" (to paraphrase) was hypocritical (not saying that it wasn't; just that "hypocrite" wasn't my first reaction). I felt it was more about him feeling outraged and upset that he hadn't been able to keep her from going down a dark path that he feels isn't too healthy for people's souls, to put it mildly. A form of protective paternalism, I guess. Since he made a comment at some point much later in the show about it being too late for him, it feels like he's more on a mission to help others from turning into what he feels like he is, than it feels like self-righteous indignation on his part at someone killing another person. But that's just how it felt to me. Some of this also reminded me of the scene in S3 when he was trying to talk Laurel down from shooting Komodo (I think that's who it was...), so again, more like he is trying to save other's souls from the sin of killing, and he already considers himself to be too far gone in a way.

    My favorite part of the ep hands-down was where Oliver's future sister-in-law grabs Olllie by the arm, twists it and slams him down onto the table. I went back for second and third viewings, I liked it so much. And maybe I'll even go back for a fourth. I am curious as to why Talia cares about Ollie fulfilling his litte-book-of-names-killing-mission promise to his dad. I suppose they'll get around to that at some point.

    I like Rene. I would keep him around b/c I like the chemistry he has w/ Ollie. Given the difference in their temperaments (though there are certainly some similarities as well) and their roles (Oliver is the leader who must rein in his hot-headed team member) they can have conflicts that arise naturally, rather than some kind of out-of-the-blue manufactured conflicts. This keeps the dynamic between them interesting, and it's good for Oliver to have someone he has to keep pushing back against (versus say, some romantic melodrama angsty nagging & whining guilt-fest conflict about secret kids, bad boyfriend behavior and so on and so forth...)

    Rory seems sweet. I like him, but I just don't know: long-term what is there to do w/ him? I would write him off eventually. In a nice way.

    Curtis was better than when I last watched his whiny, entitled nerd-awkward self ruin practically every scene I saw him in. I like him out in the field, handling tech support. Some of his nerdy awkward asides and interjections were okay, but they overdid it with him (not surprising) and took him into cringey territory a few times. Exhibit A: Ollie, WD and Curtis are in the middle of confronting Tina for first time up on the roof; Tina already is kind of smirking at them (when she talks about "costume warehouse", making fun of them & their outfits); Oliver tries to boss her around w/ his usual macho attitude; and then for whatever reason the writers just have to have Curtis interject some kind of awkwardy-nerd-self-aware-lameass-comment. I don't know what purpose that was supposed to serve? I thought they already had a good dynamic up on the rooftop: 3 guys trying to intimidate Tina and she's having none of it. Having Curtis make his klutzy comment just made them seem silly in an unnecessary way. Didn't work for me.

    BTW, why, on this show, does almost every IT genius (ie: Felicity, Curtis & now Felicity's fan) have to be an awkward nerd who talks very fast & forcefully, frequently inserts his/her foot into mouth, and has to make self-aware "cutesy" asides which get annoying real fast?

    Speaking of Felicity: She only annoyed me the tiniest bit in 1 scene, so that's good. Otherwise, she didn't annoy me, so that's the best I can ever hope for: to not be annoyed by her. I also usually don't find her interesting or likeable, but for a change, I liked the scene where she met her hacker-fan. The fan, of course, was highly annoying, seeing as how she was channeling Felicity, but the good thing about that was, that b/c the hacker-fan was acting that way, Felicity couldn't! Thankfully the writers must have realized that would have been Just Too Much. To have TWO of them acting like that. Please no. Therefore, Felicity was more subdued and serious, and so I was shocked to notice that *gasp* I kinda liked her in that moment. It felt to me like they were setting it up to have her feel like there's a part of herself that. over the years, she's lost touch with and she wants to reconnect with that side now maybe. And if so I think that could be a good thing: for her to have something else to focus on other than Oliver and Oliver-related endeavors.

    I also thought the actor who played Sonus did a nice job of being an evil jerk.

    Finally, with re: to the fact that S5 and Oliver's FB journey will be ending this year, I could imagine a scenario where they decide to kind of do a soft reboot starting S6 and try to tell a GA/BC story, if they think Tina seems to be working out.
    Last edited by Shelby Kent; 02-07-2017 at 03:10 PM.

  11. #41
    Forum Regular Pulsayr's Avatar
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    Overall I enjoyed the episode even though I'm still salty that we're getting a new Black Canary instead of Laurel, who went through years of development to get to Black Canary. President Luthor pretty much summed it up for me. As much as I'm not a fan of them killing off Laurel and faking us out with a Black Siren redemption, I'm going to wait it out and see what Dinah Drake has to offer us. I like her as a character so far (mainly because her personality is very much like Black Canary from the comics), so I'm curious to see how it plays out. Putting my own bias aside.

  12. #42
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    Loved the episode! For the first time in two seasons I was so excited. Dinah Drake and Tailia al Gul are characters, that can make this show exciting again. It's like season 2 again when we saw the Canary and Nyssa al Gul.
    I was so bored from the same old washed out characters and Oliver being so out of fire. Tired of his brooding over his ex girlfriends and non existent chemistry with his new team of mediocre people.
    So the episode had great story, great character arc, awesome action. And the flashbacks finally started to have meaning.
    I hope they continue in the same direction and to something really exciting with the new characters.
    As for Dinah becoming Black Canary, I think at least we have a chance to have a powerful BC, because I don't think Laurel or Cassidy deserve better, I think the fans deserve better, and Harkavy is our chance.

  13. #43
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    In terms of accomplishing what it set out to do -- to introduce Dinah and, in the flashbacks to set the stage for Oliver achieving his S1 Hood status by season's end -- it did this. Plot-wise they largely got this job done.

    The process for Dinah earning her place in Team Arrow's roster, and the more difficult process of maybe taking on Laurel's legacy/cause/mask and wig and being seen as a legitimate successor was obviously not going to play out in one episode. I have a feeling that earning her keep as a teammate will be addressed by season's end and I actually don't think we're going to see a Dinah endgame this season.

    She'll be taking steps in this direction but I don't think we're going to see a full-fledged New Canary any time soon (if at all?) this season ... unless they believe rushing it is better aka serve the bitter medicine now, face the blowback now, deal with the fallout later. That would seem reckless and rife with risks.

    If they're smart -- they won't rush anything. If they are planning a long game, then they have S6 to deal with it, so why rush it -- when S6 would be a clearing of the decks and a rare clean slate moment for the series.

    I think both new and old teammates are eligible for getting an exit this season or the next: by death, exile, burnout, new job, another DC series, etc. In S6, everyone's gotta earn their keep and prove their worth to stick around, not just Dinah.

  14. #44
    Forum Whiz Amarice's Avatar
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    President Luthor > again I could copy-paste most of your post. Edit: Agree with both your posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Kent View Post
    It was kind of funny watching them review candidates for potential BC, by which I mean it was quite klunky. Kind of made me think this is what it would be like, say, if after Prince Charming found and married Cinderella, poor old Cinderella died so then Prince Charming decided he needed to get another Cinderella, and went about it by finding the first available woman who could fit into those glass slippers. Slippers fit: mission accomplished! In this case, as someone on the team helpfully pointed out, once Ollie finds his next BC, why, no worries he can just put a blond wig on her and that'll be that! (this did distract me, as I began to wonder: well, what if Tina doesn't WANT to wear a blond wig??? Will Oliver just cram one on her head?? And what would that scene look like: Oliver and Tina wrestling as he struggles to force her to wear a blond wig so that she will fit his idea of BC....hmmm That could be a really weird scene. )
    I think that Doctor Pressnall could say many interesting things about Oliver's need to find Laurel's successor. Yeah, the comment about the blonde wig was kind of stupid. The show probably won't put more focus on that aspect, but I would say that his motives to "save" Tina/Dinah are not entirely selfless. He might say to himself that he fulfills Laurel's wish to not let her be the last Canary, but I would say that there is also a need to deal with pangs of conscience. He failed her, so he thinks that teaming up with the next Black Canary he will somehow make up to her. Too bad that Laurel still says dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Kent View Post
    I like Rene. I would keep him around b/c I like the chemistry he has w/ Ollie. Given the difference in their temperaments (though there are certainly some similarities as well) and their roles (Oliver is the leader who must rein in his hot-headed team member) they can have conflicts that arise naturally, rather than some kind of out-of-the-blue manufactured conflicts. This keeps the dynamic between them interesting, and it's good for Oliver to have someone he has to keep pushing back against (versus say, some romantic melodrama angsty nagging & whining guilt-fest conflict about secret kids, bad boyfriend behavior and so on and so forth...)
    I also like their relationship. Wild Dog is a combination of Roy and Dig. And obviously I prefer Oliver in a role of mentor/leader than a guy who gets his ass kicked in every episode and doesn't remember how to shoot a bow (season 4).

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Kent View Post
    Rory seems sweet. I like him, but I just don't know: long-term what is there to do w/ him? I would write him off eventually. In a nice way.
    Possible crossover with Supernatural. Winchesters come to Star City, thinking that he is some demonic creature and try to hunt him down. After it turns out that Ragman is a good guy Team Arrow and Winchesters go to Big Belly Burger. Rene and Dean hold a competition who can eat the biggest burger.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by canaryalive View Post
    Loved the episode! For the first time in two seasons I was so excited. Dinah Drake and Tailia al Gul are characters, that can make this show exciting again. It's like season 2 again when we saw the Canary and Nyssa al Gul.
    I was so bored from the same old washed out characters and Oliver being so out of fire. Tired of his brooding over his ex girlfriends and non existent chemistry with his new team of mediocre people.
    So the episode had great story, great character arc, awesome action. And the flashbacks finally started to have meaning.
    I hope they continue in the same direction and to something really exciting with the new characters.
    As for Dinah becoming Black Canary, I think at least we have a chance to have a powerful BC, because I don't think Laurel or Cassidy deserve better, I think the fans deserve better, and Harkavy is our chance.
    I have to agree, I very much enjoyed the episode as well.

    Yea Dinah and Talia can help in that regard.

    Understand for sure, in regards to feeling burned out with the same characters and Oliver.

    Yea the the episode was good in those regards.

    A interesting way to look at it of the fans compared to the typical Cassidy and Laurel deserve better thing. After my time I've spent on Reddit, I think I've gotten tired of the Cassidy deserve better stick I keep hearing about.

    Did she deserve the bullying from the Olicty shippers? No and really Cassidy seems to be doing just fine outside of Arrow anyway. She's just one more actress in Hollywood for me, nothing special.

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