View Poll Results: What did you think?

Voters
9. You may not vote on this poll
  • 10 - Fantastic

    1 11.11%
  • 9

    0 0%
  • 8

    0 0%
  • 7

    3 33.33%
  • 6

    0 0%
  • 5

    1 11.11%
  • 4

    0 0%
  • 3

    0 0%
  • 2

    1 11.11%
  • 1 - Bad

    3 33.33%
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 16 to 29 of 29
  1. #16
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 04
    Posts
    3,049
    I may have to compartmentalize my viewing for the second half.

    There's the Oliver's journey arc aka the only one that really matters, which I will see through to its end. There's the Dark Felicity arc, which could(?) allegedly give her more of the character development she has needed -- or it could be mere fuel for Olicity. They could try to do both to appeal to all, and it could just become muddled and please none. We'll see how it lands.

    There's the Team Arrow: TNG arc, where they have actually done a half-decent job in trying to make some of the newbies more than mere placeholders. (In my books, the weakest of the newbies was the one who just turned heel and had the least development: Artemis). And finally, we have this Elseworlds journey of Next Canary who won't be BC to anyone who has even a passing familiarity to Dinah, BC and her legacy in the GA comics mythology.

    She might be fine with the 'whoa, this chick can kick ass' crowd ... but this is replacing BC we're talking about. I guess what I'm saying (past midnight my time, yeah, I'm rambling) is there will be some S5 arcs and subplots that I'll be invested in -- does anyone think Oliver and Kovar's final showdown won't be appointment viewing? -- and then there will be those arcs that won't get that level of attention from me. I'm on board with seeing how Talia fits into the flashbacks and the current Prometheus arc (Lexa Doig is going to bring it, enough said) and how the new recruits' subplot plays out.

    I'm thinking Artemis is going to be cannon fodder, and considering how little they did in developing her as a character I can't say I'd be affected either way.

    I'm open to the Dark Felicity arc giving Felicity some much needed character development, if they manage to give her some (I know, no delusions here, a big maybe). But if it's there just to fuel Olicity fires, I'd be fine watching those scenes with glazed-over, indifferent eyes ... waiting for the flashbacks where Ivan Drago -- er, I mean Kovar -- menacingly tells Oliver that he will break him and fights only for himself.

    There are two questions when it comes to Tina. Will she earn her place on Team Arrow in the general vigilante-on-the-team sense? This is where she may get some leeway from me. As for the next question that obviously consumes the fandom: will she earn her keep as a Canary/Next Canary/whatever the heck they call her, well I think this is where the BOP comics fan won't simply take what they're planning on blind faith alone.

    There comes a point where we have to choose to be trolled by them, by tweets, by reviews, etc. -- or not. I didn't see Black Siren as a viable means to bring Laurel "back" because I've long felt that any chance to reverse Laurel's death and "sell it" had a narrow window, which closed IMHO at S4-19 (the ep after her death). Any means, real or fantastical, to reset it just looks to me like a stunt or a cheat.

    While I can appreciate the fear/disappointment that we won't get Laurel "back", even as a redeemed E2 Laurel, I don't think I took the next step and made it an expectation of mine that they must bring Laurel back in this way to somehow fix things, make amends, call it what you will -- going on my previous premise that this window closed last season. Anything they do this late in the game will come off to me as less an ingenious plot twist and more like a Twitter/tumblr-driven stunt that they are gambling (and recklessly too) will pay off.

    I saw the Black Siren cameo as a winter premiere stunt, nothing else. Ollie muttering something about wanting to save E2 Laurel just looks like they're toying, trolling or playing with us, when you consider that they already have a potential Next Canary in the on-deck circle. Worst case scenario would be if they actually have no idea how they'll pull it off and Tina is a live, by-the-seat-of-their-pants experiment.

    As a BOP comics fan, I feel they've already used up their 'Continue Game?' tokens here re: BC. That's a given.

    It's the more open-minded and tolerant 'not-wedded-to-canon' tv viewer in me, coming to a similar conclusion, which is regrettable.

  2. #17
    Nate nate-dog1701d's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 10
    Location
    Sector 2814
    Posts
    3,575
    Are we really supposed to count Evelyn as a Canary because of that one episode where she had the sonic device?

    Quote Originally Posted by Backward Galaxy View Post
    If it's any consolation, they've said this new character has deep comic roots somehow. Perhaps we'll find out her real name is also Laurel Dinah Lance.... not related. We've all been fooled the whole time. People can have the same name. It could happen.

    I don't know. It's late, and I'm tired.
    Katie Cassidy could have been playing Henry Dinah Laurel Lance.

  3. #18
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 08
    Posts
    76,303
    Juliana Harkavy's character could end up being a Dinah Drake of sorts (with "Tina Boland" being a smokescreen). For me, whether they line up with the comics or not is irrelevant. As a viewer of 5 years, Laurel Lance is the character I was told would be the Black Canary and that's who I was invested in. Something that not even Sara's presence truly threatened (for one thing, she never went by "Black Canary" anyway). So no matter how canonically iconic "Black Canary Tina" ends up being, she's still a pretender, IMHO. Pulling the Henry card that nate-dog alludes to will only make what's happened in the last year even more ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by nate-dog1701d View Post
    Are we really supposed to count Evelyn as a Canary because of that one episode where she had the sonic device?
    Not in my book. It would be like counting Diggle as the Green Arrow because he wore the hood for one episode during season 1.
    Last edited by costas22; 01-27-2017 at 03:31 AM.

  4. #19
    Pirate King Backward Galaxy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 03
    Location
    The Danger Zone
    Posts
    10,941
    Quote Originally Posted by nate-dog1701d View Post
    Are we really supposed to count Evelyn as a Canary because of that one episode where she had the sonic device?
    I believe so, yes. I don't think longevity matters as much as circumstance. For example, when others have claimed to be Green Arrow, they really only did it to help Oliver. Artemis wasn't trying to help Laurel, she was trying to be the new BC. That makes her Black Canary III in my book.

    I think the argument is stronger for Sara not being a BC, simply because she called herself only Canary. I don't feel the need to split hairs in that way, but I can see why others would. For me, that's like saying Oliver has been two superheroes because he was the Arrow and is now the Green Arrow. While it is true, and has character defining implications, a duck is a duck if it looks like a duck and quacks.

    But regardless of how we want to define these things, we still have a mess, either way. We can say we have Proto-Canary, Black Canary, Faux Black Canary, and Black Canary II (the new woman), but it still ends up with Laurel's run being short and lackluster.

    Katie Cassidy could have been playing Henry Dinah Laurel Lance.
    I see what you did there.
    Last edited by Backward Galaxy; 01-27-2017 at 06:31 AM.

  5. #20
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 04
    Posts
    3,049
    Henry

    Maybe SG James will turn out to be a Henry too.

    As for keeping track of Canaries, BC's and who counts or not, I'm beginning to feel like Bruce Willis' character in Looper realizing that he may need a box of straws to explain time travel. It would be a carousel that never stops.

    I'd be more aligned with how costas22 put it. BC was always intended to be Laurel's endgame on this show - it was the purpose her character was there for. Extract the execution out of it, which was obviously wonky. Everyone else who isn't E1 Laurel - past, present, future/alternate earth - is a pretender, no matter how they spin it. Laurel may not have been a spectacular BC, but she was BC nonetheless. The only one. By this standard, Tina, Evelyn, E2 Laurel and Sara are in the same boat: pretenders, illegitimate claimants, Canary variants, however we wish to define this.

    Where's a box of straws when you need it ...

  6. #21
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 08
    Location
    Land of 10,000 Lakes
    Posts
    2,692
    Quote Originally Posted by TheSecretVampire View Post
    Honestly, I hope we see Talia in the present and then have Nyssa enter the equation....that would be so kick ass, lol
    Sadly, Katrina Law, the actress that plays Nyssa has a new show that she is on, Training Day, so per the show runners it's exceedingly unlikely they'd be able to use her this year at least. Of course the show could bomb and free her up for next season (assuming Talia survives, lol)

  7. #22
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 08
    Location
    Land of 10,000 Lakes
    Posts
    2,692
    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    Henry

    Maybe SG James will turn out to be a Henry too.

    As for keeping track of Canaries, BC's and who counts or not, I'm beginning to feel like Bruce Willis' character in Looper realizing that he may need a box of straws to explain time travel. It would be a carousel that never stops.

    I'd be more aligned with how costas22 put it. BC was always intended to be Laurel's endgame on this show - it was the purpose her character was there for. Extract the execution out of it, which was obviously wonky. Everyone else who isn't E1 Laurel - past, present, future/alternate earth - is a pretender, no matter how they spin it. Laurel may not have been a spectacular BC, but she was BC nonetheless. The only one. By this standard, Tina, Evelyn, E2 Laurel and Sara are in the same boat: pretenders, illegitimate claimants, Canary variants, however we wish to define this.

    Where's a box of straws when you need it ...
    I'm at the place where even I'm arguing they should have just kept Laurel if we were just going to get a new one slapped into place. It's just a truly bizarro writing choice to keep dipping back into the Black Canary well. Is there really even an audience wanting Tina? The comic crowd mostly doesn't want it. The Olicity crowd doesn't want it. The KC fans don't want it. The Laurel fans don't want it. Fans of the other new characters are bound to be dissatisfied by yet another character competing for screen time. I have to think that there are outside of the show reasons for the inclusion of the character. Because inside of the show, I can't make sense of it.

  8. #23
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 08
    Posts
    76,303
    Quote Originally Posted by Backward Galaxy View Post

    I think the argument is stronger for Sara not being a BC, simply because she called herself only Canary. I don't feel the need to split hairs in that way, but I can see why others would. For me, that's like saying Oliver has been two superheroes because he was the Arrow and is now the Green Arrow. While it is true, and has character defining implications, a duck is a duck if it looks like a duck and quacks.
    It does seem like a technicality, but I think there's a reason why Laurel was the first one to be called "Black Canary". Sara was indeed meant to be a raw proto version who would prove to be too flawed to assume the BC mantle. And the main thing that didn't make her the iconic BC for me, more so than the name, is the fact that she was portrayed as a merciless assassin during her run under that mask. Didn't see much of the iconic BC in her, personally.

  9. #24
    Nate nate-dog1701d's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 10
    Location
    Sector 2814
    Posts
    3,575
    Quote Originally Posted by Backward Galaxy View Post
    I believe so, yes. I don't think longevity matters as much as circumstance. For example, when others have claimed to be Green Arrow, they really only did it to help Oliver. Artemis wasn't trying to help Laurel, she was trying to be the new BC. That makes her Black Canary III in my book.
    Fair enough. I don't even remember if she called herself Black Canary in that episode or just had the sonic device. I also can't remember what happened to the device.

    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    Henry
    Never forget.

    Maybe SG James will turn out to be a Henry too.
    You know, he does seem like a Henry.

    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    I have to think that there are outside of the show reasons for the inclusion of the character. Because inside of the show, I can't make sense of it.
    Well, I guess they want to keep a female on the team.

  10. #25
    Forum Whiz Amarice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 14
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    837
    I found the episode quite watchable. Unfortunately it unfolded in predictable way, and I'm really wondering what they're trying to achive by introducing Tina? Logically speaking Black Siren redemption arc would be more interesting (lol, logic and "Arrow" in one sentence). If KC couldn't come back for more episodes/the showrunners didn't want her come back then introducing yet another BC (I've lost count) won't please any section of fandom. Also, I'm not even trying to guess how they'll exsplain that out of sudden there is a meta with sonic scream around, who happens to wait till GA will recruit her. Plot Demands!

    Oliver's belief that there is some good hidden in Black Siren brings to mind Ollie's belief from the comic that people are good in nature. Liked flashbacks in Russia. Small wonder that Bratva guy had hard time to understanding Oliver's motivations - he keeps Laurel's photo, but after leaving the island he doesn't go back to her, but instead goes to Russia to fulfill a promise to another woman, who is dead. It can make one's head hurt.

    As usual, I enjoyed Rene's scenes, and his honest-supportive talk with Curtis. "Don't touch me like that" and his sour expression in the end was just lol. And his reaction "wait, what?" to Oliver telling him that Lance's sister has a tendency to come back to life. Yeah, Wild Dog is relatively new in this weird business. So, I'll gladly swim against the fandom tide who sends Rene to early grave. Btw. he shouldn't call Felicity and Oliver mom and dad, because this way he contributes to generating more Tumblr nonsense.

    I must say that I was okay with Felicity's part here (it makes sense she is suspicious about Laurel's miracle return), except the scene with boxing (just lol and big no) and her punching BS, because I found it over the top. Also I have no idea why the team listened to her and ignored Oliver's orders. It makes no sense. Also it's unfortunate that anything Felicity-related adds fuels to uncesessary shipping stuff.

    Now, there is some stuff which is purely bad writing. So Prometheus break outs Black Siren three days earile and people from STARLabs don't inform Arrow Team about that? Black Siren is afraid of Prometheus although she much more powerful than him? Unless he is a meta as well.

    Also, it's horrible how they've treated Billy's death. Seriously, this guy was no even put into ground and they way Felicity acts about losing him... ah wait... she throws two or three lines about him and that's all (Oliver looks more shaken than her), made me think that they should really bring back Doctor Pressnall because more and more people in this verse need that professional therapy.

    Liked Katie Cassidy's portrayal of Black Siren and hope that she will be back for some small mini-redemption arc near the end of the season.

    Quote Originally Posted by nate-dog1701d
    Katie Cassidy could have been playing Henry Dinah Laurel Lance.
    Unfortunately I didn't get that joke. Can someone explain?

    The only Henry related to GA stories I can think of is the hacker guy from the comics.

  11. #26
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 04
    Posts
    3,049
    Henry is a SV reference. It turned out SV Jimmy wasn't even Jimmy, but his twin Henry. Hence, the joke that Arrow could go that route with Laurel and say she wasn't really Laurel and 'real' Laurel is out there. 99.99% chance they won't be as absurd ... but as SV fans we all thought Jimmy Olsen was Jimmy. A part of me is hoping SG James is also a Henry - it may explain a lot of things.

    It's funny that the b-plot, Curtis and Rene starting to gel as teammates was the strongest one in this ep. I didn't even mind Felicity here. If they can resist the melodrama, maybe they won't waste this chance to give her character more growth.

    If they truly want to have a Next Canary, then I can see how giving BS even a small redemption arc by season's end would give Oliver some final closure with Laurel's death. In fact, they may have to if they have any hope of making Tina palatable to fans as a Canary heir.

  12. #27
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Jun 09
    Posts
    496
    Quote Originally Posted by Backward Galaxy View Post
    If it's any consolation, they've said this new character has deep comic roots somehow. Perhaps we'll find out her real name is also Laurel Dinah Lance.... not related. We've all been fooled the whole time. People can have the same name. It could happen.

    I don't know. It's late, and I'm tired.
    Maybe she's Talia's daughter.

  13. #28
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 08
    Location
    Land of 10,000 Lakes
    Posts
    2,692
    Henry is a SV reference. It turned out SV Jimmy wasn't even Jimmy, but his twin Henry.
    I envy you the ability to forget any part of that awful storyline, but SV Jimmy was the older brother rather than the twin.

  14. #29
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 04
    Posts
    3,049
    If only I could forget Henry. They say time heals all wounds.

    In time, I might be able to purge that Olsen switcheroo from my memory. One day at a time, SV fans, it will just take time.

    I must have been thinking of the Ashmore twins.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •