Loved It? Hated It? What did you think of "What We Leave Behind"?

[nate-dog1701d]

I can't believe I'm creating an Arrow episode thread. It's probably too late, and I know some people have already commented in the countdown thread, but here it is anyway.

I enjoyed this the most of any Arrow episode in recent memory. Prometheus really came to bat this week. His plan at the end was absolutely brutal. I do have to question his sanity, though. He really went to great lengths to replicate that Claybourne crime scene. I guess I'm going to assume he got the details from his police connection rather than from his own memory. He didn't have a great start as a villain this season, but this episode was a win.

I don't believe he is this Claybourne guy. It's too simple. Besides, if he was, I think we would have had the standard unmasking for the camera. I believe this is just another round of messing with Oliver.

People have questioned Evelyn's motives. Hopefully, something comes of that. The main thing I wondered was why she revealed herself now? Was her only job to get the personal information of the whole crew? Maybe it helped unhinge Oliver a bit, but it seems she would be more useful in the eventual takedown. All she did was reveal herself and run away.

The Curtis-Paul thing didn't really bother me. I don't want to see it anymore, but Paul has a point. We're watching a superhero/vigilante show, so we're not supposed to truly question why someone would do this, but in real life, would you really be okay with your spouse being a vigilante? Now, this side story would have had more impact if I cared enough about Paul to remember his name or recognize him, or if I understood why Curtis wanted to be in the field in the first place. For me, it was just a thing that happened that bothered me far less than any Oliver-Felicity drama in the past.

Speaking of Oliver-Felicity, I didn't understand if that red pen was supposed to be a reference to anything other than the obvious proposal pose. *shrug*

It's been a while since I watched season 1, but I don't recall Oliver killing that many people in any given episode. Some people, sure, but everyone in the building? Maybe I've just forgotten.

I don't understand why they never got around to making Billy a character, but I think Oliver killing him still worked. How horrifying. I'm glad they showed the flashbacks, though, because I didn't recognize him when Oliver unmasked him.

Laurel being from Earth-2 seems the most obvious explanation. I'm pretty sure she got away in that Flash episode.

[President_Luthor]

I think Paul and Billy have the same issue as characters -- they weren't developed enough for viewers to actually have as big an impact as it might have. Their loss may be big for their friends and loved ones, but for us I don't know enough about them. Paul leaving may hit Curtis hard and it will play out in adding more angst to Curtis' situation, but I can't say his loss has any real impact on me. There was an inevitable comeuppance for the secrets and lies, and Curtis was served this in this ep. In a way, Paul had to leave -- it seems to be the only way for Curtis to get that he had treated Paul poorly in keeping him out of the loop and expecting to accept/tolerate his potentially fatal night job.

Same with Billy -- it's more the deviousness of Prometheus' scheme in baiting and taunting Oliver that I'd remember than Billy's death on its own. The plus here is that Felicity was quick to acknowledge that this is on Prometheus, so I don't expect we'll have to see the predictable blame game going on between them.

Prometheus is definitely messing with Oliver. He laid out the clues pointing to Claybourne's son. Ollie is being toyed with.

Oliver's flashback body count was high in this one, but I think it was just to make a point that he was more brutal in S1 and had little reservation taking down goons of hit list targets, if it meant he could get to the target and cross him off the list. He had no remorse in S1. S5 Oliver in contrast would kill if needed, but he'd have some reluctance killing so cavalierly.

I'm going with E-2 'Black Siren' Laurel in that final scene as the likely choice.

I enjoyed this midseason finale overall.

[Carmine-Infantino]

Arrow 66

https://www.youtube.com/embed/qpCLiSr9OrU

[Amarice]

I think Paul and Billy have the same issue as characters -- they weren't developed enough for viewers to actually have as big an impact as it might have. Their loss may be big for their friends and loved ones, but for us I don't know enough about them. Paul leaving may hit Curtis hard and it will play out in adding more angst to Curtis' situation, but I can't say his loss has any real impact on me. There was an inevitable comeuppance for the secrets and lies, and Curtis was served this in this ep. In a way, Paul had to leave -- it seems to be the only way for Curtis to get that he had treated Paul poorly in keeping him out of the loop and expecting to accept/tolerate his potentially fatal night job.

Same with Billy -- it's more the deviousness of Prometheus' scheme in baiting and taunting Oliver that I'd remember than Billy's death on its own. The plus here is that Felicity was quick to acknowledge that this is on Prometheus, so I don't expect we'll have to see the predictable blame game going on between them.

Prometheus is definitely messing with Oliver. He laid out the clues pointing to Claybourne's son. Ollie is being toyed with.

Oliver's flashback body count was high in this one, but I think it was just to make a point that he was more brutal in S1 and had little reservation taking down goons of hit list targets, if it meant he could get to the target and cross him off the list. He had no remorse in S1. S5 Oliver in contrast would kill if needed, but he'd have some reluctance killing so cavalierly.

I'm going with E-2 'Black Siren' Laurel in that final scene as the likely choice.

I enjoyed this midseason finale overall.

Well, my thoughts are exactly the same. Paul's reservations about Curtis's doing the vigilante stuff and eventually leaving because he can't accept that are valid ones. Billy's fate was horribie when one comes to think about that. An awful way to go. But sadly, they weren't developed enough as the characters to care that much for them. We, as the viewers, will care much more about Oliver struggling with the consquences of killing accidentaly an innocent person*. They especially negleced setting up Detective Malone as a character - he appeared in only four or five scenes. Maybe they should bring him into loop more often in non-Malicity scenes. Nothing could beat Lance's and the Arrow relationship, but including Billy actually doing some detective work (and contacting GA, like in that one episode) wouldn't be at the cost of the actual plot.

Still, I feel bad for Billy, because, as I said, he is/was Norrington of this universe and 5x09 confirmed that.

I was also wondering about the body count. They truly made flashback-Ollie look like a ruthless psycho. In that one action he really took down at least eight or nine guys, and some of them weren't even attacking him. It somehow contradicts with late season 1 bodycount I think. Lance said something about Doctor Webb being twenty-seventh or twenty-eight victim of the Hood. It season 1 it didn't really look like he was going for killing shots all the time. With such an approach he would end up with 300 bad guys taken down, not 30.

I also think that Laurel is in fact Black Siren. I'm glad to see KC back, and I hope that she will appear in more than one or two episodes. I also hope that if they will come up with some redemption arc for her, they won't redcon E-1 Laurel out of the "Arow". Can we hope that the writers are finally smarter than that? So far they've made good job with 5A - most episodes were solid, with some really good ones. We will see if they won't lose pace in 5B.

Liked Wild Dog's comment about pissing off Oliver by hanging around those socks. (Hey, some of them were green, so it shouldn't be that bad). Then again I don't know what is the purpose of one-sided Rene/Thea - more comic relief than anything else I think.

On the fence when it comes to Felicity's reaction about Billy. It reduces the unecessary blame game, though. I wonder if they don't brush off the weight of the situation easily due to the hiatus (very conviniently to have all angst happen off screen). I wouldn't be surprise if 5x10 it will be stated that Oliver, similarly as in 1x10, is not in a mental state to put on this hood again. I wonder also if the police will turn against GA.

The switch between flashbacks and current timeline when Oliver goes to confront Prometheus was excellent, I think in my private ranking it will land shortly after Oliver's fight with Slade in 2x23. Also, Oliver's return to the Arrowcave was really one of the most depressing scenes they've ever made, and seeing Oliver so shaken is a scene that will stay for a while with me.

*Well, a while back I wrote a fanfiction exploring exactly the very same trope. Now tell me that fics reuse stuff from the canon and don't have anything original in them. How do you call a situation when the canon follows the same tropes you followed first in a fanfiction story? Obviously I'm more than happy that canon realized that it's one of tropes that it's not too frequently used in storytelling regarding maked vigilantes. It's a really difficult situation for Oliver's conscience.

[nate-dog1701d]

Yeah, I'm glad we get to skip the mind-numbing subplot of Felicity being angry with Oliver. I was even a bit surprised when she absolved him of guilt.

My recollection of The Hood is that he didn't always go for kill shots, but he did kill henchmen more freely than the people from the list.

[costas22]

There was an episode in season 1 (I think Betrayal), where Cyrus Vanch kidnapped Laurel and Oliver attemped to save her. He must have killed a dozen of Vanch's henchmen guarding the house. Don't think this episode made him look any worse than he really was in season 1.

[Amarice]

It's not about making him look worse. It's about numbers. He killed or severly wounded more than a dozen of Vanch's henchmen. Here he took down around eight-nine bad guys. His first attack on Adam Hunt's office left also a number of dead bad guys. At this point it's already well over twenty guys taken down. No way it will make those 27-28 victims as stated per Quentin in late season 1. Retcon mode on.

Then according to tie-in comics Oliver killed around 300...? (I think it was in Arrow Season 2.5, and I didn't manage to read all of it, as it was really poorly done, unlike Season 1 tie-in anthology).

[costas22]

It's not about making him look worse. It's about numbers. He killed or severly wounded more than a dozen of Vanch's henchmen. Here he took down around eight-nine bad guys. His first attack on Adam Hunt's office left also a number of dead bad guys. At this point it's already well over twenty guys taken down. No way it will make those 27-28 victims as stated per Quentin in late season 1. Retcon mode on.

Then according to tie-in comics Oliver killed around 300...? (I think it was in Arrow Season 2.5, and I didn't manage to read all of it, as it was really poorly done, unlike Season 1 tie-in anthology).

Oh, ok. Now I get what you mean. Well, retcons are a part of this show, as you well know. Even when it was in its best days. I remember that they couldn't settle down on how many days Slade was on Lian Yu for. In season 1 it was for over a year and in season 2 he mentioned 260 days or something. Not surprising that they can't get Oliver's kill count correct. I admire some viewers for attempting to keep score.

[President_Luthor]

Yeah, Ollie's S1 body count has been fluid -- there will never be an accurate or definitive count thanks to the frequent retconning. If they can retcon an Olicity spark during Flashback Ollie's ill-advised "first" return to SC (we got to see Tommy again, but still, going back to SC then was one of the more absurd things he's done), then the only takeaway I have from Ollie's S1 flashback killing spree here is: he killed a lot of people back then.

How many or how few is a side issue. S1 Ollie took lives with little thought for its consequences on others or, especially, on himself.

The general idea is that, back then, he was more cavalier in taking lives, and not only out of necessity or as a final option.

I'd also add "real" Slade's last appearance as a pretty bad retcon. S1 Slade would have skewered injured Ollie and capped Thea with the gun taken from Ollie's dead hands, and he'd still have time to collect papayas for his evening meal. S3 Slade? He gets schooled way too easily by Thea so they can convince us that Thea is a badass. She's tough as nails now -- but back in S3 ... no way. It helped Thea, no doubt, but the blowback on Slade's character was awful.

[nate-dog1701d]

As if Slade didn't draw a short enough straw when he was relegated to pining for Shado.

[gus2]

The episode seemed to clear the decks of some bit part characters. It also in my mind threw in a couple of cliffhangers Overall a good mid-season finale

However Laurel could be Black Siren looking for redemption but more likely it maybe a way of introducing Talia Al Ghul to the Arrowverse (I do not want to be in your debt Arrow so i have returned your beloved we are no even the next time I see you we will be enemies type scene)

Another Lazarus Pool or Fountain of youth storyline is coming.

[Haggard01]

I haven't done much reviews around here recently but here we go.

Onto 5x09

Amazing episode and wow I'm blown away to say the least.

The characters were all on point and even Felicity, I had no problems with. The action was at the top of it's game and especially the stuff between Oliver and Prometheus.

For the end with Billy, well poor Billy. We hardly knew you but your impact in death will be felt.

I was shocked and Oliver telling the team after words of what happened. Man, Stephen Amell had to have one of his best performances I've seen. That was truly heartbreaking to see of just the emotional gut punch, and plus the fact of the team, really Oliver's family got closer to him of just a silent support.

I will say in the past two years, that would not have been happening at all. It would have just been attacking Oliver of Felclity blaming Oliver for killing her boyfriend and Diggle most likely giving a speech about how Oliver's lethal skills brought, this onto himself, etc.

Glad I never saw that and I was thinking we would until the scene ended. Also Oliver is going to take it hard of killing an innocent person and I have the feeling he'll be struggling with this, for some episodes.

The flashbacks to season 1, were enjoyable and not just of going back to season 1, which is considered to be the best but just nice to see them in season 1 again. Oliver doing stuff like crossing names off The List and Diggle and him doing things on their own.


Also they recaptured that tone season 1 had, without missing a beat. Kind of made me go "Oh yea, things really have gotten way different since then" of just in the current episode they were discussing aliens and the team as it is now.

Which yea Oliver as The Hood, I think it kid of took me for a moment of seeing just how ruthless he was. It was fun seeing that version of him again. Also I say they made him even more ruthless, of like shooting the guy who was already done with an arrow and probably as point to remind us of The Hood.

Either just because of not seeing him four years or because Oliver is still killing, as a way to separate him from his season 5 self.

For Diggle based on the information we have of 5x10 in a promo clip it was the military who arrested him. Through Prometheus could have had a hand in it. Which Diggle should have been more careful.

For Prometheus he is an amazing villain and reminds me of Malcolm and/or Slade.

I will say, I'm really excited for the return to the Russian flashbacks. Which with Talia coming in, I think that's when we are really going to say Oliver get trained into the guy who can beat Kovar and also the one man army that we saw in the flashbacks and season 1.

I kind of always thought Oliver just got his skill level in season 1/2 when training with Slade and just head canon it as that and just the misteps of his combat skills varying in the past two seasons, as writers screw ups.

Still do but now that Oliver is going to be getting trained by Talia it kind of fills that gap of one of his finale steps towards The Hood.

Ok, Arrow has massively improved from season 4 to the point of they are like two different shows. Now does Arrow still have work and is it out of the woods yet?

Arrow still has work, of it needs to keep like it's doing and well at the end of the season, if they are able to pull that off then I'll call it that we are out of the woods. Arrow as of right now is I feel like I'm watching season 1 and/or 2 again.

I'd say 10/10 hands down