Loved It? Hated It? What did you think of "Red Queen?"

[Aries83]

What did you think?

I gave it a 6. It was an improvement over last week, but not by much. I thought Gordon's "trip" ate up too much screen time and that the episode just jumped all over the place with no real focus.

I liked Hatter a little more this week, but his scenes felt kind of by-the-numbers. The bloodletting scene with Alice was creepy, though. Comparing her blood to "cocktail mix" was a little odd...

As for the relationship stuff, I liked the hospital scene with Vale and Gordon, but his scene with Lee was such a snoozefest (The soap opera music in the background didn't help, either).

I can't say I have high hopes for Nymobblepot after tonight. Inviting Isabella to the mansion, plus all the kissing? It's like their doing it at Oswald's expense, which I don't like. However, I did find Pengie's confrontation with her at the library amusing. At least he's not going down without a fight. If Oswald can see her, I guess that means she's a real person, which is kind of a bummer considering I thought she was a voice in Nygma's head. Penguin looked crushed at the end, too. I'm going to hold off judgement until the arc with Isabella plays out, though.

Hopefully, whatever they do with The Court of Owls will have a better plot. I gather we're supposed to believe that was Jim's father talking to Kathryn in the shadows?

Kind of off-topic, but: Can someone please explain to me why they keep calling Mario Dr. Calvi if Falcone is supposed to be his father? Did I miss something? What was up with that HUGE band-aid on his neck?

Anyway, it was an ok episode. I hope next week is better.

[costas22]

Pretty good episode, I thought. The Jim parts were very interesting and it was long overdue that they explored his psyche and why he has ended up where he has. That said I DID NOT appreciate the Lee part. Come on, show. Move on already. Either have the guy single for a while or give him a new girlfriend. This pending love triangle makes me worry about how this season will shape up. Speaking of Lee, I can't believe she once again tried to force Jim to confess that he still loves her. Good grief. Hope Vale isn't gone for good. Barbara was great in the hallucinations.

I was also intrigued by that band-aid. Seems like there's more to Mario than meets the eye. We should find out in the coming weeks.

Not much to say on the Penguin/Nygma front. I won't question the show for teasing a gay relationship, but it does bother me how Penguin looks in all this. All the romantic melodrama will ruin his character.

Finally, the last scene was a terrific cliffhanger. The Court of Owls is back and looks like Jim's dad (or someone wearing their family ring) is part of it.

[Aries83]

Pretty good episode, I thought. The Jim parts were very interesting and it was long overdue that they explored his psyche and why he has ended up where he has.

I thought the final scene, with his dad, to be the most important. That long close-up on his dad, after he realized who it was, really got to me. It was so sad. Maybe it's just because my dad is getting old and I know he won't be around much longer.

I DID NOT appreciate the Lee part. Come on, show. Move on already. Either have the guy single for a while or give him a new girlfriend. This pending love triangle makes me worry about how this season will shape up.

I agree. When she appeared in the hallucination, I just thought, "Whatever." I'm so tired of the back and forth with this relationship. I just don't buy them as a "true love" couple at all.

Speaking of Lee, I can't believe she once again tried to force Jim to confess that he still loves her. Good grief.

I'm with you! The worst part about that scene was how Jim popped up behind her, like a jack-in-the-box, almost immediately after Mario said he wanted him gone. It was straight out of a soap opera.

Hope Vale isn't gone for good.

Me either. Compared to Lee, she's a breath of fresh air. I don't know, though: I really believed her when she said they were done.

Barbara was great in the hallucinations.

Seeing her in that nun costume was hilarious. I thought the Gordon mask Bruce was wearing was really creepy, too...

Not much to say on the Penguin/Nygma front. I won't question the show for teasing a gay relationship, but it does bother me how Penguin looks in all this. All the romantic melodrama will ruin his character.

My feeling is that if that's really what they want to do, then do it. Forget all the triangle nonsense. I'm torn about it, too, because it's so GREAT to see Chelsea Spack again. It's just too bad that her character is being used like this. Speaking of, 12 hours with Edward and she's making paper dolls with hearts at the library. That's just CRAZY. Ed better watch out!

the last scene was a terrific cliffhanger. The Court of Owls is back and looks like Jim's dad (or someone wearing their family ring) is part of it.

I agree. It surprised me. It made me wonder just how many members The Court has, too. I hope it goes somewhere interesting

[nate-dog1701d]

Did we have to use a hallucinogen to finally get some insight into Gordon? It seemed a little trite and too structured to get him from point A to B, and it didn't really work for me. Gordon's psyche must be really messed up if Barbara is leading him around everywhere. Who is this - Batman?

Whether correct or not, both women assuming Jim's intention was to save Lee and not letting him explain anything was ridiculous. It's presumptuous for Vale and conceited for Lee. I'm more understanding of Vale's reaction because she was the one who actually took a bullet.

So, Penguin's going to kill that woman, making him and Ed bitter enemies, I assume.

Ed has become a favorite for me this season. I like the way he gets excited before spouting off a riddle.

I hope that's not actually Jim's father at the end, but I guess it fits. He was a lawyer, so he spent lots of time in court.

Kind of off-topic, but: Can someone please explain to me why they keep calling Mario Dr. Calvi if Falcone is supposed to be his father? Did I miss something? What was up with that HUGE band-aid on his neck?

I think he said he changed his name to avoid being involved in the Falcone crime world. I assumed the bandage was related to last week, but we never saw him get whacked, so maybe not.

[costas22]

I thought the final scene, with his dad, to be the most important. That long close-up on his dad, after he realized who it was, really got to me. It was so sad. Maybe it's just because my dad is getting old and I know he won't be around much longer.

Gotham can often be a cynical show, but this was a scene that really tugged at the heartstrings. First time in quite a while that I felt so bad for Jim. Of course, with this being Gotham, it didn't last long and by the end of the episode we were left to wonder if his father has gone bad.

I agree. When she appeared in the hallucination, I just thought, "Whatever." I'm so tired of the back and forth with this relationship. I just don't buy them as a "true love" couple at all.

Just speculating here, but it seems like the showrunners are allowing art to imitate real life. The problem is that as happy a couple as Ben and Morena are in real life, their characters on this show just don't mesh well. They never have, imo. Even if you look at it from a chemistry standpoint, Gotham's romantic scenes are usually so wooden, that it's hard to see any chemistry between them.

Me either. Compared to Lee, she's a breath of fresh air. I don't know, though: I really believed her when she said they were done.

I think they are for now. This episode, especially Jim's hallucinations, made it really clear who he'd rather be with. But hopefully they can still find a storyline to involve her in. She doesn't have a random name after all.

Seeing her in that nun costume was hilarious. I thought the Gordon mask Bruce was wearing was really creepy, too...

I would have kept the nurse outfit, personally. Jim is a stick in the mud, lol. That was a Gordon mask? Ha. I didn't realize who it was supposed to be.

My feeling is that if that's really what they want to do, then do it. Forget all the triangle nonsense. I'm torn about it, too, because it's so GREAT to see Chelsea Spack again. It's just too bad that her character is being used like this. Speaking of, 12 hours with Edward and she's making paper dolls with hearts at the library. That's just CRAZY. Ed better watch out!

Indeed it is! It's what makes me question what her ageanda is. She fell for Ed ridiculously quick and she also didn't seem to mind that he killed her lookalike. There has to be more to it.

[Aurora Moon]

I'm forming this theory that Isabella is actually Kristen's sister and that she's out for revenge. I'm kinda hoping that they go down this route, even if it might seem like something out of a soap opera. But at this point Gotham's kind of turning into one anyway.

I also agree with others that Jim's hallucinations were a little too on the nose and way too structured, rational, etc. We should had seen what made the red queen hallucinogen such a fearsome drug, and why it sent people to the insane asylum. maybe something that showed him his greatest fears, etc in the vein of the scarecrow drug.

[Aries83]

both women assuming Jim's intention was to save Lee and not letting him explain anything was ridiculous. It's presumptuous for Vale and conceited for Lee.

I agree. However, it was just as stupid to lie to Lee and say that he did it to save Vale, another thing that bugged me that I forgot to mention in my original post. It was like he said it just to hurt her.

I think he said he changed his name to avoid being involved in the Falcone crime world.

You're totally right. I went back and read a transcript of the episode. This is according to Falcone:

He can't use the Falcone name, but he's brought true honor to the family.

I usually jot down some thoughts about the episode as I watch, so I must've missed that part. Thanks! It all makes sense now

Just speculating here, but it seems like the showrunners are allowing art to imitate real life. The problem is that as happy a couple as Ben and Morena are in real life, their characters on this show just don't mesh well. They never have, imo.

I agree that the characters don't mesh well, which is why I don't get why they don't just write Lee out. The two of them being in a real-life relationship might be a factor, too. I'm sure both of them being on set makes the relationship easier.

This episode, especially Jim's hallucinations, made it really clear who he'd rather be with.

But hopefully they can still find a storyline to involve her in. She doesn't have a random name after all.

I hope so too. I really like how determined she is to get the truth.

That was a Gordon mask? Ha. I didn't realize who it was supposed to be.

I wasn't sure either when I first saw it, only after a close-up of Bruce taking it off.

I'm forming this theory that Isabella is actually Kristen's sister and that she's out for revenge. I'm kinda hoping that they go down this route, even if it might seem like something out of a soap opera. But at this point Gotham's kind of turning into one anyway.

OMG, that's BRILLIANT, Aurora Moon! A twin sister surfaces to right the wrong that befell her sibling. First, she gets Edward to fall for her, then—after she's had her way with him (or whatever)—BAM! She goes in for the kill.

After it's all over, Edward is heartbroken, again, and Oswald swoops in with Ginger tea & honey. Then, Ed realizes who he should've bee paying more attention to in the first place.

OMG, I LOVE it! Bring it on, Isabella!

[holeymoley]

Isabella has pretty much the same hair cut as Barbara Gordon from the 1960s Batman TV show. Nice throwback.