View Poll Results: What did you think?

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  • 10 - Everyone can know my secret - it was great!

    1 7.69%
  • 9

    3 23.08%
  • 8

    3 23.08%
  • 7

    1 7.69%
  • 6

    4 30.77%
  • 5

    1 7.69%
  • 4

    0 0%
  • 3

    0 0%
  • 2

    0 0%
  • 1 - Please let this be the last Arrow.

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  1. #46
    Site Groupie Shelby Kent's Avatar
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    Finished the second half of the episode. Overall a decent effort at trying to get back on track and I agree it was nice to finally see an Oliver-centric episode again, where he wasn't all caught up in the ups and downs of his relationship journey; he was back to focusing on his city.

    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    - Tobias Church was a your typical Arrow generic villain. Credit to Chad Coleman for trying to make something out of him. One of the problems the show has is that it enlargened the scale so much in seasons 3 and 4, that street crime feels anti climatic now.
    Generally agree with this.

    I think Chad Coleman did an adequate job at portraying a bad guy who clearly has a grandiose vision of himself. It's not like he really had a lot to work with IMO in this ep.

    For me the overall Tobias Church character-and -storyline is sorely lacking in much needed detail at this point. So to me he feels very generic as you say ("just add water and shake!").

    First, why do all these criminal encounters keep occurring in a big empty clean warehouse?? The scene where we first meet Tobias, when the corrupt cops break in, was ridiculous and looked really low budget -- why would criminals (generic Hispanic looking BTW so I guess I'm supposed to think Hispanic gang?) put a table smack in the middle of a big empty warehouse to run their money through a money-counting machine? It feels very cold and impersonal. Like the show is saying: oh yes, and here are our generic Hispanic gang member criminals in their warehouse, see? they have that money-counting machine so that's how you know they're up to no good, in case you didn't get it! empty warehouse + money-counting machine + random Hispanic looking people = crime!

    Since Guggie was the one gushing about Stringer Bell from The Wire prior to the start of the season, I say that from what I'm seeing Tobias is nothing like Stringer Bell, who never would have actually gone out in the street to do the dirty work. A real high-up guy like that, who's clever and wily, needs to keep some layers between himself and the criminal activities. Tobias should have been in an office or room somewhere -- grubby or sophisticated decor, doesn't matter -- mapping out strategy with lieutenants and then the lieutenants can dispatch the street guys to carry out the dirty work. So that was disappointing.

    Also, IMO the disadvantage of using such a large space for the kidnapping/fight sequences, was that when Ollie told Quentin that he needed back-up, it wasn't so obvious why the GA couldn't handle a few thugs with guns -- the large space made it seem that Tobias only had a few people with him. A smaller more intimate scale would have made for a feeling of a greater concentration of thugs to battle.

    And what exactly is Tobias involved in? Is it drugs, guns, what? just "generic crime"? Does he have business-dealings that intersect with some prominent seemingly-legitimate-but-secretly-corrupt Star City businessmen? I know they had their outdoor half-circle meeting of bad guys in that warehouse parking lot where Tobias shot Bertinelli, and while I kind of didn't like that it made me think Guggie was copying Daredevil S1 a bit, I can see where it made practical sense for them to gather outside, less chance of wiretaps etc, and tbh lots of shows have this kind of scene, but I wish I had a better sense of who the players involved with Tobias are. I'm aware that over the coming episodes they can flesh a lot of Tobias' story out, but my personal preference would have been that they kept Tobias a little more in the background physically, but still with a focus on him as the criminal-leader-power-figure so that I get an understanding of what he's involved in, the scale of his criminal enterprise and his goals/motivations, and use his lower level thugs for the actual crime and fighting.

    They made a pretty decent start into the corrupt cops storyline. I would just hope that in coming episodes they show more behind-the-scene details and conversations between the corrupt cops and the people they are working in conjunction with (ie who are the corrupt cops' criminal allies for example? does the top-dog-corrupt-cop answer to any Star City businessmen and/or politicians?). In other words, I think they should really spend time "world-building" and showing the elements of Star City which make it so corrupt, including the various connections, double-crossings, conflicting interests bewteen the groups etc. Just as in the show Narcos, the viewer is made to understand how endemic the corruption is in parts of Colombia & South America where the cartels operate and the reasons why there is so much corruption (the corrupting influence of power, based on money and on violence/fear of violence), I think Arrow should treat "corruption in Star City" as the ultimate big bad and show it in such a way that the viewer is made aware of how deep it runs, tentacle-like, so that Oliver can't just wipe it out in one year, but rather it could take him the rest of the series to struggle at hacking away, bit by bit, all the various tentacles and heads of the "corruption-monster" that plagues his city.

  2. #47
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Kent View Post
    think Arrow should treat "corruption in Star City" as the ultimate big bad and show it in such a way that the viewer is made aware of how deep it runs, tentacle-like, so that Oliver can't just wipe it out in one year, but rather it could take him the rest of the series to struggle at hacking away, bit by bit, all the various tentacles and heads of the "corruption-monster" that plagues his city.
    I have to believe that back in S1 this was what they wanted to do, but as the seasons progressed, attention to what should always have been its central theme 'saving the city' from the corruption you described, was pulled away by -- no surprise here -- metas, magic and time travel, or to be more accurate: the need to accommodate a larger universe where saving the city in the GA sense was not going to be a priority on the other series. Saving them from megalomaniacs and immortals is one thing, which may be fine on Flash etc., but for Arrow saving the city was supposed to go deeper than that. I continue to believe the benefits of a shared universe have been a one-way street on Arrow, creatively -- and Arrow was largely not its beneficiary. I would say Arrow had paid a high price for accommodating this new, fantastical world at its own expense story-wise.

    S5 appears to be a course correction on this front, a resetting to some of Arrow's original DNA. I hope it stays this way and won't be pulled away again by the next DCTV trend or fad. I'm glad SA ruled out a musical crossover for Arrow -- I mean, really, what the hell kind of show would Arrow be if we saw Oliver belting out in song his anguish over choosing to kill again, Les Miserables-style? Barry, Kara and friends -- keep that stuff on your side of the fence, thanks.

  3. #48
    Site Groupie Shelby Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    I'm glad SA ruled out a musical crossover for Arrow -- I mean, really, what the hell kind of show would Arrow be if we saw Oliver belting out in song his anguish over choosing to kill again, Les Miserables-style? Barry, Kara and friends -- keep that stuff on your side of the fence, thanks.


    If Guggie and gang were seriously considering a musical episode for Arrow, then that explains a lot. And not in a good way. And it's very sad that SA had to be the one to step in and put a stop to that, and that the producers didn't have better sense than that.

  4. #49
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    I believe SA headed them off at the pass via social media, when the idea of a Flarrowverse musical crossover first hit the radar.

    Between the Gleeksters on their staff and alums Melissa and Grant with the pipes to do it, I'm sure he sensed the clear and present danger that Arrow "might" be called upon to participate in it. Dk if they ever were on-deck, but I'm guessing SA wanted to do a pre-emptive strike to kibosh the notion for Arrow. Even if his reason to pass turns out to be only how his own singing would live up to the pros (I mean, come on, Jesse L. Martin was an O.G. cast member for Rent back in the day, the Flash cast must be biting at the bit to do it), Arrow skipping out on a musical ep. is a blessing.

    The closest Arrow came to standing on the barricades, "Do You Hear the People Sing?"-like was in Schism when he stood on that car and stopped a city-wide riot with his speech. He's done his spell on the barricades, thanks, I'm good. No need to see him do it in song.

    At best, Flash and SG in a musical ep will be "cute". The skeptic in me fears that, once the ep. plays, King Shark may not be the only gilled creature "jumping" around on those series that signed up on the 'Musical superheroes are cool!' bandwagon. Hopefully it's a one-and-done deal.

  5. #50
    Forum Whiz TheSecretVampire's Avatar
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    Tobias Church is a good villain, but really is no match for someone who has defeated the likes of Malcolm Merlyn, Deathstroke, Ra's, Damien Darhk and was a vital player in defeating Vandal Savage the first time. So, it's a good thing they have this mystery archer as another villain because Tobias won't last the whole season.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSecretVampire View Post
    Tobias Church is a good villain, but really is no match for someone who has defeated the likes of Malcolm Merlyn, Deathstroke, Ra's, Damien Darhk and was a vital player in defeating Vandal Savage the first time. So, it's a good thing they have this mystery archer as another villain because Tobias won't last the whole season.
    Agreed. And we already know from trailers that at some point, Tobias is gonna be having a meeting with Prometheus (the mystery archer). Something tells me it won't be GA or the newbies to bring Tobias to his knees.

  7. #52
    Site Groupie Shelby Kent's Avatar
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    That last scene, with Prometheus, for me, was the best thing in the whole episode. It hit all the right notes. His presence, the way he moved and held himself, his face swathed in (whatever), the music, the mystery.

    I don't know how they plan to use Tobias. IMO he doesn't need to last the whole season, but he does need to provide a crucial link to the crime and corruption that envelopes Star City. He should have links to other criminals leaders (as we saw in that nighttime parking lot meeting) and corrupt business/government leaders that illustrates the network of corruption in the city. He would be the first of many criminals/corrupt community leaders that Ollie has to go after in order to eventually rid the city of its problems.

    As a side note, I'm kinda glad Prometheus took out that honest cop. Nothing against the cop, but he and Felicity's boyfriend look too much alike. I was having trouble telling them apart, especially with the similar hairstyle and facial hair (now that's either a casting or make-up fail! Should have been plenty of actors out there to choose from and they have to choose 2 who look so similar!)

  8. #53
    Forum Whiz TheSecretVampire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Kent View Post
    That last scene, with Prometheus, for me, was the best thing in the whole episode. It hit all the right notes. His presence, the way he moved and held himself, his face swathed in (whatever), the music, the mystery.

    I don't know how they plan to use Tobias. IMO he doesn't need to last the whole season, but he does need to provide a crucial link to the crime and corruption that envelopes Star City. He should have links to other criminals leaders (as we saw in that nighttime parking lot meeting) and corrupt business/government leaders that illustrates the network of corruption in the city. He would be the first of many criminals/corrupt community leaders that Ollie has to go after in order to eventually rid the city of its problems.

    As a side note, I'm kinda glad Prometheus took out that honest cop. Nothing against the cop, but he and Felicity's boyfriend look too much alike. I was having trouble telling them apart, especially with the similar hairstyle and facial hair (now that's either a casting or make-up fail! Should have been plenty of actors out there to choose from and they have to choose 2 who look so similar!)


    Hahaha, I thought the same thing too.

  9. #54
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    "I don't know much at all about your little planet.... except that it seems to have a fascinating if somewhat limited gene pool." Vala Mal Doran, Stargate SG-1, Season 10, Episode 1. This was due to the remarkable similarity in looks (minus beard) from Dr. Daniel Jackson and Lt. Colonel Cameron Mitchell.

    This is a bit paraphrased, but I believe I captured the essence of what she was saying.

  10. #55
    Forum Whiz Amarice's Avatar
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    @President_Luthor > The Story of The Parachute That Didn't Want to Be Fold. Loved Grumpy!Quentin. I could imagine that his expression/comments in the canon would be very similar if he had seen Ollie's parachute arrow. And now it's clear who contributed to Ollie's obssesions with cooking, namely omelettes - Yao Fei!

    Also, how school kids can not respect their local hero?

    @Shelby_Kent > I wouldn't exactly say that street-level type of crime felt anti-climatic. Maybe because I used to watch a lot of crime shows - one of the peculiar things when it comes to Polish TV that they seem to product only soap operas and crime/detective show (no, they are not made by the same people , but years ago I watched one of my favorite crime/detective shows turning into a soap opera, so "Arrow" is not the sole case). I agree, though, that a lot of stuff was generic - nothing wrong with Tobias Church being a mafia (?) boss who has a brutal approach and beats guys to death himself (not exactly the type like Darhk, who steers everything from the back seat) but the scene of his introduction you had brought up looked as if it was happening on a stage in a theatre - some random Hispanic origin guys counting money, then killed by some random dirty cops, then killed by Tobias Church & co.

    (Btw. looking forward till they show Polish mafia ).

    Then again the scene where Pike and the cop I-don't-know-his-name-and-I-don't-know-if-he-is-Felicity's-BF-or-the-dead-honest-cop actually examine the bodies, and then the shot to GA lurking in a place which seemed to be a very uncomfortable to be lurking in looked just cool. I missed "Arrow" having a scenes like that.

    So yes, a lot of stuff they have served was like pancakes warmed up in a microwave oven, but it was still much more tasty that WTF stuff from 4x01 with happy-free-from-trauma-and-obsession-Oliver-I-don't-care-about-my-city-any-more.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSecretVampire View Post
    Hahaha, I thought the same thing too.
    Yes, I also couldn't tell which one is which. The Honest Now Dead Cop had a bit longer beard, but srsly, I'm still not sure if he was the one investigating the crime scene with Pike, or if it was Felicity's BF.

    Like, omg, did they really wanted to include "Arrow" in a musical? o_O

  11. #56
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amarice View Post
    @President_Luthor Also, how school kids can not respect their local hero?
    They were likely kids from a rough part of the Glades, or snotty private school kids who feel they're entitled enough to do mischief and get away with it.

    (I don't know maybe they categorize the SC 'hoods as: 1. barely habitable, 2. Gotham City-Lite, 3. lock your doors after 6p - or what happens next is on you, 4. why-the-f#$% are you still living in this cesspool?, and 5. You 'wish' zombies lived here because this hood IS a post-apocalypse.)

    Like, omg, did they really wanted to include "Arrow" in a musical? o_O
    I don't know for certain if Arrow truly was in the running in the way the Glee alum-fronted series Flash and SG surely were, but I do recall SA stomped on that burning ember on Twitter/Facebook and nixed any notion of it for Arrow, when there was online buzz about it happening in the Flarrowverse. He must have seen the imminent threat and, like GA, snuffed it out before it could endanger his show.

    He saved his city in this regard -- musicals have no business being on Arrow.

  12. #57
    Forum Whiz Amarice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    He saved his city in this regard -- musicals have no business being on Arrow.
    Come to think about that again...

    CARRIE

    In sleep he sang to me
    In dreams he came
    That voice which calls to me and speaks my name
    And do I dream again for now I find
    The Arrow of Star is there
    He shoots his bow again


    GREEN ARROW

    Sing once again with me
    Our strange duet
    My power over you grows stronger yet
    And though you turn from me to glance behind
    The Arrow of Star is there
    I shoot my bow again


    CARRIE

    Those who have seen your face
    Draw back in fear
    I am the mask you wear

    GREEN ARROW

    It's me they hear...

    BOTH

    Your/My bow and my/your string in one combined
    The Arrow of Star is there/here
    Inside my/your mind


    (ORIGINAL) TEAM ARROW

    He's there, The Arrow of Star!
    Beware, The Arrow of Star!
    He's there, The Arrow of Star!
    Beware The Arrow of Star!

    GREEN ARROW

    In all your fantasies, you always knew
    that man and mystery

    CARRIE

    Were both in you

    BOTH

    And in this city
    where night is blind
    The Arrow of Star is there/here,
    inside my/your mind

    DOCTOR PRESSNALL

    You both need a professional therapy
    As soon as possible


    "Phantom of the Opera" in Arrowverse. (Would rework it more, but rhymes + English are not my strong side).

  13. #58
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    Well ... since we are waaaay down this rabbit hole now:

    --Shamelessly ripped off 'Red and Black' scene from Les Miserables:

    (Enter stage left, Diggle returns from an uppercrust mayoral soiree to the Arrowcave, in formal tuxedo. Oliver arrives a few minutes late, also in a tuxedos. Curtis runs in late too. They all look dapper, like James Bond. I'll even throw in some formal white gloves too.)

    Diggle: The time is near...
    So near... it's stirring the blood in their veins!
    And yet beware...
    Don't let the Vodka go to your brains!

    For the gangster Tobias we fight is a dangerous foe
    With the men and the arms that we never can match

    Oh, it's easy to sit here and swat 'em like flies
    But the Bratva will be harder to catch.

    We need a sign
    To rally the Glades
    To call them to arms
    To bring them in line!
    Oliver, you're late.

    Oliver (in some sort of delirium):
    'Ghosts' you say? Ghosts, maybe
    Felicity was like a ghost to me
    One secret son there, and she was gone ...

    Diggle:
    It is time for us all
    To decide who we are...
    Do we fight for the right
    To a night at The Verdant now?

    Have you asked of yourselves
    What's the price you might pay?
    Is it simply a game
    For rich young boys to play?

    The colors of the world
    Are changing
    Day by day...

    Green - the envy of the corrupt!
    Black - the dark Hood of ages past!
    Green - a Flashpoint-changed timeline about to dawn!
    Black - the night that ends at last!

    Curtis: Green ...

    Oliver: I feel my soul on fire.

    Curtis: Black ...

    Oliver: My world if Felicity's not there!

    Chorus: Green ...

    Oliver (as he gears up to become the Green Arrow): The colour of my soul!

    Chorus: Black ...

    Oliver: The colour of despair!

    (They exit right with a flourish, Oliver sailing off stage on arrow zip line, with Diggle and Curtis tap dancing to stage right.)

    They better start rehearsals now. The boys are going to have to bring it in this scene.

  14. #59
    Site Groupie Shelby Kent's Avatar
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    @Amarice! @President_Luthor! Stop! Please!

    Just when I finally started thinking of Oliver as badass again, now this....*sigh*

    You guys have just put images and sounds in my head that I can never un-see and un-hear

    (Admiral Diggle was already a lost cause, so...)


    LOL

  15. #60
    Forum Whiz Amarice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    Well ... since we are waaaay down this rabbit hole now:

    --Shamelessly ripped off 'Red and Black' scene from Les Miserables
    Now I really want this musical. The question is if SA can sign? Saw the cast performing a song from Hamilton (Echo Kellum sang most of it if I remember correctly, supported by EBR). Amy Gumenick was singing in "Broken Hearts" so she qualifies too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Kent View Post
    @Amarice! @President_Luthor! Stop! Please!

    Just when I finally started thinking of Oliver as badass again, now this....*sigh*

    You guys have just put images and sounds in my head that I can never un-see and un-hear

    (Admiral Diggle was already a lost cause, so...)


    LOL
    Hey, badass Ollie can also be a singer. Have you seen an episode of JLU where Batman was singing "I'm blue" >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55zpDpTbAiw ?
    Last edited by Amarice; 10-15-2016 at 07:38 AM.

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