Loved It? Hated It? What did you think of the Arrow season premiere "Legacy?"

[evaba]

All the fandom fuming about this potential poor direction for Quentin -- which, surprise surprise, didn't even pan out as of 5.01 -- is just one example of where what fans think is going to happen and what actually happens on-screen doesn't even match up. There's a lesson there.

I'm just terrified that Donna will jump up again like a jack-in-the box with her tacky dresses and screeching voice, demanding that Quentin should take her back! Anyway, I'm glad that the ridiculous and pointless SmoakandLance "romance" is (hopefully!) over. This should be a lesson for the writers not to take the spamming and demands of a twitter fanbase as a sign of "what the audience wants". Yes, the Arrow writers "delivered", and it was a major fail.

[Aquahyde]

It was better than Flashpoint though

Disagree with you, The Flashpoint premiere slayed!

The Laurel related stuff in this episode was cringeworthy. The statue was lame (seriously, that's the best design they could come up with?) and her request to Oliver was even lamer. Regardless of my worries about Felicity assuming the mantle, the truth is that there shouldn't another Black Canary (or simply "Canary") on Arrow. Laurel should have been the final version. Now they are just making her one of the Canaries this show will produce. And if that's the case, why did she have "The Black Canary" engraved on her statue and gravestone? LOL. And I actually have to disagree with President Luthor. Laurel didn't tell Oliver to get more help, period. She specifically told him to get another Canary. Hence the whole "I want to feel like a part of me is out there with you" borderline masochistic bit. The fact that she didn't even name her sister as that person was the icing on the cake.

- I don't see any signs of the show righting the wrongs with Felicity. She's still calling the shots, she's still the one to be more right than Oliver, they are still focusing on her love life and Diggle is still pimping Olicity!

- Nice to know that Lance sacrificed his career in the police for a woman he broke it off with after a few months.

👍
Well we tried giving them another shot.

[President_Luthor]

The show offered a fairly balanced resolution at the end of Schism, didn't it? Oliver might have to kill when it's absolutely necessary, but he's also the same person who can be a beacon of light for others. Even Felicity finally accepted this dichotomy of his character. It was actually one of the few good things the season 4 finale did. And now, we are back to Hood Oliver dropping bodies even when it isn't necessary and *seemingly* having lost most of his hope again. Oliver's killing dilemma is like Quentin's drinking issue. We are probably stuck with it until the end of the series.

I agree that Ollie actually had a 'code' if we can call it that after Schism, where killing as a last resort was on the table under extreme circumstances. Felicity was on board with it, the only one who Ollie acknowledged would object to it was Laurel and she was in the ground by then. So, yes, it is irksome that Ollie's back to what I had called "wanton killing" where he does it when it suits him, no more rules of engagement, Felicity's fine with it and only Thea makes the reasonable objection. Thea gets extra points for invoking the idea that his deeds should be seen as honourable -- the whole reason why Roy took the fall, to wipe the slate clean for Oliver so he could be seen as more honourable than his Hood persona.

I wouldn't mind if Team Arrow on occasion/infrequently has a pinch-hitting roster of newbies that eventually fan out into, say, LoT or Flash or SG. Arrow did it for Barry when the dude didn't even have a show yet, so the precedent is there. The key here is they should only be a few, with the understanding that most aren't going to stick around too long once they've established themselves. It's not something I'd want to see happen regularly. The too-many-masks doctrine still applies. If the team starts to look bloated again, the herd must be thinned (including by being killed in action). No exception. If new character x or y helps tell Ollie's story, this would be the only way he/she can stay awhile longer. If not, then, hey newbie character -- why not take a one-way ticket to Bludhaven and help them out, do relief work in Havenrock, go test your powers at STARLabs ... anything that takes you out of SC, thanks. Don't come back til crossover week, season finales, etc.

Laurel's death should remain permanent and irreversible. Having doppelgangers, rookies and other pretenders vying for the vacant title gives the impression that the BC title is vacant and open to take when I think a lot of fans would say the "brand" died with Laurel and cannot be claimed again. Ideally this would be the case, but it seems TPTB still have that 'we want our cake and eat it too' mentality re: BC.

Even the idea that Sara could or even would take on the BC identity to honour her sister wouldn't sit well with me. I can't even fathom the less palatable routes: some new rookie claims it or the confounding idea that Felicity would just decide after 4+ seasons of Arrowcave operational/tactical support status that now she wants to be a vigilante in the street and is even willing to be some sort of Canary 3.0 (if we're counting Sara and Laurel as other Canaries).

Let's hope that the 'Felicity is going to be BC/generic vigilante!!!' notion holds as much weight as the now-fizzled hype surrounding Donna's presumed all-consuming presence in Quentin's life in S5 aka it was non-existent in reality. #ByeByeDSmoak #StayInVegas

As for Legacy and what's on-deck for S5, I'm actually glad I haven't read all that many spoilers or any future S5 episode summaries, so I wouldn't get all that many preconceived notions about this new season.

Overall I think the pluses outweighed the minuses, based on what I saw in the Arrow premiere.

If Flash's 3.02 actually puts its premiere into better context eg. a "part 2" to the S3 premiere, then it's possible Flashpoint could look better than it did to me. Can't say yet. But based only on 3.01, Flashpoint was lukewarm at best while Legacy was firing on most cylinders. Heck, the whole subplot of the primary love interest being the light for the protagonist was front-and-centre in the premiere of the show that many fans (incorrectly) assume doesn't go that way: The Flash! Arrow rightly gets heat for embracing melodrama too much. Now that Flash has embraced some of these elements too (Caitlin/Zoom anyone?), I'm thinking more of this heat needs to be spread around. It's not an Arrow-only thing and they shouldn't pretend otherwise. The Flash has it too, sorry, Team Barry loyalists.

This melodrama, I'm afraid, will cost Flash's S3 premiere some coolness points. Points must be docked.

Guess where the melodrama was largely absent in its own premiere? Arrow. Shocking, isn't it, fans?

I do like Flash, but this time Arrow's premiere comes out on top. And it's not a photo finish. If we're only judging premiere-vs-premiere, trick arrows beat the Speed Force this time around.

[DoubleDevil]

Thank you for the reviews, guys, especially @President_Luthor, @JDBentz and @Haggard01. Watched on YT the opening scene with Ollie beating the crap out of Anarky. One can clearly see Bamford's hand in how the scene was shoot. I was wondering "is he going to use an arrow or not" and a shocker, it turned out even quite nasty (an arrow through a knee, an arrow through the forearms etc. < btw. is that even possible? Ah, I don't want to know).

I guess I will watch the episode then. Especially that I like how the upgraded costume looks like in live action. (There is a reason why I have Carrie in my avatar ). Small change and it's a lot of an improvement!

It is possible but very doubtful, I don't understand why he'd have both arms perfectly aligned unless he was holding something in both hands. Arrow in the knee is nothing new, Ollie shot Roy in the knee during season 2 so let's find out how fast the recovery takes this time (wasn't Roy already on mirakuru at that point?).

[Amarice]

It is possible but very doubtful, I don't understand why he'd have both arms perfectly aligned unless he was holding something in both hands. Arrow in the knee is nothing new, Ollie shot Roy in the knee during season 2 so let's find out how fast the recovery takes this time (wasn't Roy already on mirakuru at that point?).

Yes, an arrow to the is one of Ollie's "old tricks". He shot Wild Dog, because he was annoyed that he disturbs him while he is saving the city. I've had doubts about the scene with an arrow through forearms - especially that Ollie didn't shoot that arrow but was holding it in his hand and pierced Anarky's forearms. Anarky was leaning against the wall, and I was mainly wondering if there is enough space between radius and ulna bones (nitpicking mode on). But well, nothing will beat that nonsense with Cupid shooting two arrows at one in two different directions so I guess one can give a pass in that case. At least Ollie remembers how to use bow & arrows.

Nevertheless I keep wondering if they're cutting down on CGI budget and if that's the reason why Ollie didn't shoot too many arrows in season 4.

As for recovery - I guess Wild Dog was running without problems in the very same episode.

[134sc]

You know, it has to be said, that in my opinion ARROWS premier was so much better then the Flash. Just sayin

[costas22]

Disagree with you, The Flashpoint premiere slayed!

This melodrama, I'm afraid, will cost Flash's S3 premiere some coolness points. Points must be docked.

Guess where the melodrama was largely absent in its own premiere? Arrow. Shocking, isn't it, fans?

I do like Flash, but this time Arrow's premiere comes out on top. And it's not a photo finish. If we're only judging premiere-vs-premiere, trick arrows beat the Speed Force this time around.

Ah, the beauty of differing opinions.

While Flashpoint imo didn't slay, I don't think there was that big a difference in how the love interest was portrayed. Yes, WestAllen was elevated to Olicity levels of "EPIC ROMANCE!", but it's not like Felicity's role in Legacy was utterly subdued. In a subtle manner, she was still the guiding light for Oliver. The episode was basically about him coming around to her logic. And then we got that scene with her and her new bf at the end of the episode to cement the fact that the melodrama is always around the corner.

For me, it's not so much that Legacy did a lot of stuff well. It's that Flashpoint did a lot of stuff bad. Whether it's the nature of the Flashpoint storyline, the obligatory pep talk Barry always needs to get going, the Rival and Wally's dialogue or the fact that the lead character's portrayal is getting worse and worse.

[Amarice]

You know, it has to be said, that in my opinion ARROWS premier was so much better then the Flash. Just sayin

Heard that too from various sources. Will try to watch both Flash and Arrow this weekend and see for myself.

[President_Luthor]

I think you'll like the premiere, Amarice. They appear to have doubled down on the things we liked about Arrow in past seasons, it had a bit of a S1 - S2 flavour to it. The melodrama elements are always going to be there, we all know they're not going away -- but at least in this ep. much of it was muted. Lots of moving pieces in this ep. and melodrama was one of those that were wisely minimized to a more palatable level.

Even though they did have the usual 'Felicity is Ollie's light' theme, it didn't bother me this time in the sense that it fit into the context of Oliver trying to sort out whether or not he could or should have a Team Arrow again (old or new). I'd have to see it again, I don't know if Felicity expressed any reservations about Ollie's body-dropping trend of late (I think only Thea did). This is where someone on Team Arrow should be steering him into at least choosing his Schism-era rules of engagement. For the moment, Oliver is getting a head start on his S5 body count and it looks like Thea is running point on reining in his retro-Hood habits.

Oh, and Diggle ships Olicity even when unasked. Nothing new on this front.

(Cisco, LoT's Ray and SG's Jimmy are talking about NFL football and they see Diggle coming over. Sporty chit-chat on-deck):

"Cisco: Yo, Diggle, my man! Who's your pick in the Patriots - Browns game?

Diggle: I think Felicity is the light Oliver needs to guide him on his journey. They're like two souls entwined, you know?

Ray: Really? You're shipping Olicity during football talk? I'm standing ... right ... here. You might want to Google: felicity's ex. See what comes up, dude.

Jimmy (to Cisco): Is GI Joe over there for real? The guy ships like nobody's business. I should know -- I've been caught up in a love pentagon over in National City. Oh Kara, my sun and stars. With your honey-hued hair, how can my heart live without thee?

Cisco: Yeah, Diggle's for real. And his unasked-for shipping comes included! (looks at Jimmy, who is humming that 'Cake by the Ocean' song to himself) And I'm going to sit on the other side of the table. Your lovesick puppy stuff is truly creepin' me out.

Jimmy and Diggle (as if their minds in-sync): Ah ya ya ya ya, I ... keep on hoping ... we'll eat ... cake ... by ... the ... ocean! *they high-five*

Cisco: *types notes in iPad* 'Side-effect #2867 of Flashpoint. Diggle ships incessantly, even more than usual. Side-effect #2868 - Both he and Jimmy become big DNCE fans'."

[JDBentz]

Hey, did Winn leave the support group? Or was he just more honest about not caring about football?

[President_Luthor]

Nah, Winn's having a temporary 'I'm cooler than you, bros' moment just because he told Kara he wasn't going to pine away for her in silence and settle for potstickers. He'll be back in the dude-cannot-catch-a-break club the moment he stumbles upon Kara and Jimmy eskimo kissing in the CatCo copy room. And he's clearly the one that got Jimmy hooked on Cake by the Ocean.

[DoubleDevil]

You know, it has to be said, that in my opinion ARROWS premier was so much better then the Flash. Just sayin

I don't know if that's really saying much. I watched the Flash premier since I didn't think it'd be a total waste of my time and I thought it was one of, if not THE, worst episodes of the series. Admitted, a bad episode of the Flash was usually still better than most of what Arrow offered seasons 3 & 4, but again that's not saying much.

[Gintoki]

So i checked the ep out, i didn't watch it live, because I don't want to give them ratings, so i downloaded it. The ep was good, i would say a 8.5/10.

Laurel Lance needs to return. It just has to happen. The show doesn't feel the same without her. That will official bring me back as a fan.

And Olicity shouldn't get together again. They don't work as a couple at all, i think this episode proves it, as their partnership chemistry, and romantic chemistry. If they listen to shippers again, let's say the show will flop big time.(Not like it hasn't already.)

[Tinuviel]

I thought the episode was okay. It was nice to see Oliver portrayed as a more than (barely) competent fighter. I've missed that Oliver. (Although it would've been nice if the fight scenes were lit a little better and less shaky camera please!)

For me the episode lacked substance and tension. I was bored with the repeated Oliver - Felicity bickering about recruiting new team members. I didn't feel any tension when Oliver and the city council members were abducted, in part because the set up wasn't that strong. So some gang leader wants to lure out the Green Arrow. What makes him more threatening than any other street thug?

I think setting up the tension was done really well in the first season. With the introduction to the Undertaking and Moira's involvement devulged in the first episode, coupled with Oliver's underlying anger that made him unpredictable, you were never sure how he was going to react. That was part of the tension underlying every situation in the first season. The tension and unpredicablity has disappeared over the seasons.

I did like the flashbacks. I did not watch the flashbacks last year so I really don't get this whole Kovar thing. But I look forward to more Anatoly - he has been missed. Still not sure that the writers will be able to pull off getting Oliver to pilot-episode-Oliver by the end of the season.

Anyway, why I'm really posting: did anyone else catch that the in the last Tobias Church scene that the man in the grey suit that was shot was was called Mr. Bertinelli? As in Frank Bertinelli who was killed in the season 2 episode "Birds of Prey"? Is this a Flashpoint Paradox thing? Is Helena going to come roaring into town wearing her revenge on her sleeve? OR is this more lame writing?

[Quark]

I'm sure there is more than one Bertinelli...