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  1. #16
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    I basically want TPTB to put their money where their mouth is.

    If they truly want a shared DC universe, where events on one show don't exist in a vacuum aka their desire to have Flashpoint impact all shows, not just Flash (which I think should happen), then for example: stuff on Arrow should register over on Flash and temporal meddling over on LoT should impact Flash. And once SG becomes part of their world, Team Arrow should be flabbergasted that there's another alien incursion in National City.

    If Ollie can bring up Zoom during the burial of Laurel Lance(!), then Barry can damn well express some shock that something like Havenrock actually happened.

    All I'm asking for is --at the bare minimum-- is that events on one show register on another. A throwaway line, a news item, a text message, something. It's not much for fans to ask.

    So it's not just an Arrow thing, it's a DCTV thing. If they truly want a related universe, then they should do the work to make it so.

    If they can't or won't do that, then I have little issue with Flashpoint not meaning all that much or having any significant effects on Arrow, LoT or even on SG (though I'm guessing it will be how Kara joins their universe). If stuff like Havenrock, the allegedly global LOA civil war etc. won't impact or even show up as a blip on the rest of the Flarrowverse -- then why should fans give one iota that events on LoT, Flash or SG make a difference on Arrow?

    As a fan, I'm expecting Flashpoint not to matter all that much on all the DC shows not called The Flash by the mid-season break. And I'm fine with it.

    It may be a shared universe in theory. In practice? They cherry pick what matters or not outside the crossovers and the shows may as well be separate entities. Arrow esp. I think is better off without all the magic, metas and time travel. Maybe having them makes a larger universe, more stories etc. I'm not convinced this was to Arrow's benefit. But I think Arrow more than the other shows had the steepest climb to make in adjusting from a non-fantastical world to one where anything is possible.

    If Flash doesn't want the grime and harsh realities of SC to seep into its show, then I'm more than fine with Arrow shrugging off many of the side-effects of Barry's temporal screw-ups, or Kara not even noticing a thing when Rip and crew mess with the timeline (again).

    It seems only fair.

  2. #17
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
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    The Flash was a great show based on its first season. There were very few moments where it felt like a great show during its second season: Enter Zoom, Fast Lane and the Earth 2 episodes. Ultimately, the season disappointed on 2 fronts: Zoom and Barry. There are other nitpicks we can go over, but they weren't enough to compromise the quality of the season. After all, season 1 was also far from perfect but it did well where it mattered.

    As far as Zoom goes, the character couldn't have been introduced any better. Especially in that fight with Barry. However, they quickly ran out of ideas for him. His endgame kept changing, his fascination with Caitlin was Berlanti-verse at its worst and the ultimate revelation of his identity created more questions than answers. Because as much as they tried with the time remnants (this season's speed mirage plot device) there were times where it simply didn't add up. Like the start of the season where "Jay" tested negative for any speed force in his system. And that was actually Zoom being tested, not a time remnant.

    Barry had an on and off season. There were times where you could see how heroic and mature he was, but the last 5-6 episodes were a "lets regress Barry" fest. Whether it was his naive decision to give Zoom his speed with nothing at stake, his ridiculous and misplaced confidence when he returned from the speed force or the fact that he saved his mother when he should have known better. If we look at it as a whole, Barry was the finished article as a hero at the end of season 1 more than he was at the end of season 2. And no matter how you look at it, a hero show has failed when that happens.

  3. #18
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    The Flash was a great show based on its first season. There were very few moments where it felt like a great show during its second season: Enter Zoom, Fast Lane and the Earth 2 episodes. Ultimately, the season disappointed on 2 fronts: Zoom and Barry. There are other nitpicks we can go over, but they weren't enough to compromise the quality of the season. After all, season 1 was also far from perfect but it did well where it mattered.

    As far as Zoom goes, the character couldn't have been introduced any better. Especially in that fight with Barry. However, they quickly ran out of ideas for him. His endgame kept changing, his fascination with Caitlin was Berlanti-verse at its worst and the ultimate revelation of his identity created more questions than answers. Because as much as they tried with the time remnants (this season's speed mirage plot device) there were times where it simply didn't add up. Like the start of the season where "Jay" tested negative for any speed force in his system. And that was actually Zoom being tested, not a time remnant.

    Barry had an on and off season. There were times where you could see how heroic and mature he was, but the last 5-6 episodes were a "lets regress Barry" fest. Whether it was his naive decision to give Zoom his speed with nothing at stake, his ridiculous and misplaced confidence when he returned from the speed force or the fact that he saved his mother when he should have known better. If we look at it as a whole, Barry was the finished article as a hero at the end of season 1 more than he was at the end of season 2. And no matter how you look at it, a hero show has failed when that happens.
    I don't agree that Barry should have known better. Barry never seemed to really learn a lesson in season 1, so much as his future self told him not to do something and he just sort of did what his future self said, that and his reasoning after that was completely wonky. "I have everything I want." didn't line up with his characterization that season and it felt pretty heavily forced. I do want to point out as well that Barry so far has had 0 real negative consequences from changing the past. Pied Piper being a good guy now. Saving the city from being blown up by Oliver making childish choices. Stopping the tidal wave from wiping out a chunk of the city. So, it's not that hard to believe he wouldn't think doing that would be that bad. Especially considering as far as the show's stated, stopping RF is actually correcting the timeline. Though Barry isn't aware of time ripples. Have a very great day!

    God bless you all!
    Last edited by Dagenspear; 09-01-2016 at 03:11 PM.

  4. #19
    Pirate King Backward Galaxy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagenspear View Post
    I do want to point out as well that Barry so far has had 0 real negative consequences from changing the past. Pied Piper being a good guy now. Saving the city from being blown up by Oliver making childish choices. Stopping the tidal wave from wiping out a chunk of the city. So, it's not that hard to believe he wouldn't think doing that would be that bad. Especially considering as far as the show's stated, stopping RF is actually correcting the timeline. Though Barry isn't aware of time ripples. Have a very great day!

    God bless you all!
    Very much agree with this.

  5. #20
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagenspear View Post
    I don't agree that Barry should have known better. Barry never seemed to really learn a lesson in season 1, so much as his future self told him not to do something and he just sort of did what his future self said, that and his reasoning after that was completely wonky. "I have everything I want." didn't line up with his characterization that season and it felt pretty heavily forced. I do want to point out as well that Barry so far has had 0 real negative consequences from changing the past. Pied Piper being a good guy now. Saving the city from being blown up by Oliver making childish choices. Stopping the tidal wave from wiping out a chunk of the city. So, it's not that hard to believe he wouldn't think doing that would be that bad. Especially considering as far as the show's stated, stopping RF is actually correcting the timeline. Though Barry isn't aware of time ripples. Have a very great day!
    Actually, stopping the RF isn't correcting the timeline according to the show. That was the gist of the RF's season 2 episode: By imprisoning him, Barry and the team were preventing him from setting the current timeline in motion. That's why they let him go.

    I do agree that his "I have everything I want" line felt forced. Getting to say goodbye to his dying mother shouldn't have changed his perspective that much. Anyway, IMO, he should have known better after the season 1 finale: His future self's warning warning wasn't vague. 2024!Barry basically told Barry exactly what Eobard (as Wells) told him in Rogue Time: You can wreak havoc on the timeline if you go decades back and change something significant. He was warned by 2 time travelers about this. The fact he changed a very recent past (the tsunami and Savage's destruction were a day earlier and Pied Piper's arrest was a year earlier) on 3 occasions without consequences shouldn't have changed his perspective on this. (Besides, who's to say some of the tragedies we've seen in the Arrowverse (Havenrock, Laurel, Eddie, Ronnie and Henry Allen's deaths) weren't a result of Barry altering the timeline during some of those travels? Hey, if the show is going to retcon time travel's effects conveniently for its arguements, I might as well do the same...)

    Another part of Barry not learning his lesson is what I alluded to in another thread. The fact that he seems less at peace with his mother's loss at the end of season 2, than he did at the end of season 1. If he was only distraught about Henry's death, he would have just gone back to save him from Zoom. But the Barry we see at the end of season 2 is someone who has completely given up on his current life and what it has to offer him. He would rather reset the whole thing than go ahead living like this. Which imo is character regression compared to the Barry who a year earlier didn't save his mother. Flashpoint really should have happened at the end of season 1. That's where it made more sense from a character development standpoint. Now we are just waiting for Barry to re-learn his lesson and go back to the same point he was at the start of season 2. A year later...
    Last edited by costas22; 09-02-2016 at 02:59 AM.

  6. #21
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    Actually, stopping the RF isn't correcting the timeline according to the show. That was the gist of the RF's season 2 episode: By imprisoning him, Barry and the team were preventing him from setting the current timeline in motion. That's why they let him go.

    I do agree that his "I have everything I want" line felt forced. Getting to say goodbye to his dying mother shouldn't have changed his perspective that much. Anyway, IMO, he should have known better after the season 1 finale: His future self's warning warning wasn't vague. 2024!Barry basically told Barry exactly what Eobard (as Wells) told him in Rogue Time: You can wreak havoc on the timeline if you go decades back and change something significant. He was warned by 2 time travelers about this. The fact he changed a very recent past (the tsunami and Savage's destruction were a day earlier and Pied Piper's arrest was a year earlier) on 3 occasions without consequences shouldn't have changed his perspective on this. (Besides, who's to say some of the tragedies we've seen in the Arrowverse (Havenrock, Laurel, Eddie, Ronnie and Henry Allen's deaths) weren't a result of Barry altering the timeline during some of those travels? Hey, if the show is going to retcon time travel's effects conveniently for its arguements, I might as well do the same...)

    Another part of Barry not learning his lesson is what I alluded to in another thread. The fact that he seems less at peace with his mother's loss at the end of season 2, than he did at the end of season 1. If he was only distraught about Henry's death, he would have just gone back to save him from Zoom. But the Barry we see at the end of season 2 is someone who has completely given up on his current life and what it has to offer him. He would rather reset the whole thing than go ahead living like this. Which imo is character regression compared to the Barry who a year earlier didn't save his mother. Flashpoint really should have happened at the end of season 1. That's where it made more sense from a character development standpoint. Now we are just waiting for Barry to re-learn his lesson and go back to the same point he was at the start of season 2. A year later...
    The facts of the show, as they've been told are that the original timeline is the one where RF never killed his mom. According to Eabord time creates something worse, which didn't happen. I can say that I don't think my future self's opinion would be worth much. And RF was evil. I still say he didn't learn a lesson in both season finales. Himself telling himself and him listening isn't him learning a lesson. It can't be regression, because he never developed. He just listened to himself without ever really knowing why. Have a very great day!

    God bless you all!
    Last edited by Dagenspear; 09-02-2016 at 06:13 AM.

  7. #22
    Pirate King Backward Galaxy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagenspear View Post
    The facts of the show, as they've been told are that the original timeline is the one where RF never killed his mom. According to Eabord time creates something worse, which didn't happen. I can say that I don't think my future self's opinion would be worth much. And RF was evil. I still say he didn't learn a lesson in both season finales. Himself telling himself and him listening isn't him learning a lesson. It can't be regression, because he never developed. He just listened to himself without ever really knowing why.
    I agree with this, too. To be fair, though, I don't think the point of the season 2 finale was to indicate he had learned the lesson. In other words, I don't think the season 2 finale failed to execute something intentional. The season 1 finale is probably more debatable in that regard.

  8. #23
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagenspear View Post
    The facts of the show, as they've been told are that the original timeline is the one where RF never killed his mom.
    It is the original timeline. My arguement was that it can't be corrected by stopping the RF anymore. Barry and co tried that in The Return of the Reverse Flash (by preventing a younger Eobard from going back to his time and then ultimately killing Nora) and the consequences of that nearly got Cisco killed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dagenspear View Post
    According to Eabord time creates something worse, which didn't happen.
    That's not true. For all we know, the singularity at the end of season 1 might have been a consequence, a worse one at that, of Barry erasing the timeline with the tsunami. By the same token, the nuking of Havenrock might have been a similar consequence of Barry erasing the timeline where Savage eviscerates the heroes. Not everything has to be spelled out by the show, imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dagenspear View Post
    I still say he didn't learn a lesson in both season finales. Himself telling himself and him listening isn't him learning a lesson. It can't be regression, because he never developed. He just listened to himself without ever really knowing why.
    Ok, removing the "learning a lesson" bit out of the arguement because it truly doesn't reflect on what happened at the end of season 1. Lets put it like this. In season 1 he refuses to do something that he's been told for fact will have devastating consequences. In season 2 he does the same thing without considering those consequences at all. Being more reckless like this after 1 year is character regression.

  9. #24
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    It is the original timeline. My arguement was that it can't be corrected by stopping the RF anymore. Barry and co tried that in The Return of the Reverse Flash (by preventing a younger Eobard from going back to his time and then ultimately killing Nora) and the consequences of that nearly got Cisco killed.

    That's not true. For all we know, the singularity at the end of season 1 might have been a consequence, a worse one at that, of Barry erasing the timeline with the tsunami. By the same token, the nuking of Havenrock might have been a similar consequence of Barry erasing the timeline where Savage eviscerates the heroes. Not everything has to be spelled out by the show, imo.

    Ok, removing the "learning a lesson" bit out of the arguement because it truly doesn't reflect on what happened at the end of season 1. Lets put it like this. In season 1 he refuses to do something that he's been told for fact will have devastating consequences. In season 2 he does the same thing without considering those consequences at all. Being more reckless like this after 1 year is character regression.
    He does it because his future self doesn't stop him. Havenrock wasn't worse than the destruction of Central City. Not to mention without anyone to stop him Darkh would have nuked the world. The singularity was easily stopped. In S1 Eobard stated that Harrison Wells built the particle accelerator, which gave Barry his powers, in 2020, which him going back in time to kill Nora, resulting in him being stuck there, so he interfered and altered the timeline by killing Wells and taking his place so he could, in his own words, "Make it happen faster."

  10. #25
    Pirate King Backward Galaxy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    Lets put it like this. In season 1 he refuses to do something that he's been told for fact will have devastating consequences. In season 2 he does the same thing without considering those consequences at all. Being more reckless like this after 1 year is character regression.
    Regression means a return to a former or less developed state. If he doesn't do something in season 1, and is doing it now, that's not a regression. It would just be a change he's made for the worse. The issue here, though, is that he's not necessarily changing just because his decisions are.

    If anything, the learned behavior here is that he can do whatever he wants with little to no negative consequences.
    Last edited by Backward Galaxy; 09-02-2016 at 11:57 AM.

  11. #26
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    I think the era of Barry being able to do what he likes timeline-wise without negative consequence to himself or others will come to a close during S3, at least this is my expectation -- and it will be the fallout of Flashpoint that will likely make this point.

    I'm even open to the idea that the biggest negative consequence(s) could occur outside of Team Barry-land. For example, if one of the ripples caused by Flashpoint is that over on Arrow, Felicity isn't able to redirect the nuclear missile and it blew up over Monument Point instead. So instead of tens of thousands dead, it's millions. I don't think it would go to such extremes just because I don't know if Barry could wrap his head around a catastrophe of this scale if his time travel/Speed Force-related choices and actions led to it. Ideally it occurs on his own show and directly affects him so that the lesson sinks in, but there's no preventing these negative side-effects/consequences from happening elsewhere in the Flarrowverse too.

    I would be impressed if they actually laid it out so that the fallout is truly Flarrowverse-wide and not just in CC. I think this is the season he will face the music re: responsibility for negative consequences that he cannot reset.

  12. #27
    Pirate King Backward Galaxy's Avatar
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    It's important to note that making it a huge storyline isn't a bad thing. Anytime you introduce time travel, people will always wonder why the hero doesn't just use it to fix mistakes. Having this big huge storyline where he learns how dangerous it can be is probably smart.

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