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  1. #1
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    Why I don't find Flash season 2 to be all that great

    So with The Flash season 2 I’ve heard people calling it a “great show and one of the best on TV” and I disagree. The reason why most people say that is because Arrow has fallen so far down they naturally prop up The Flash with ignoring it’s gaping flaws.

    Now I’m going to go through Flash season 2 and give some of the reasons the season was not so great with an objective look. I’m not going to look at it through the rose colored lenses of Arrow has failed, which I consider to be an unfair bias.

    Especially since well, Arrow in early years and if you put Flash season 1 and 2 right up next to Arrow’s first two years, well the results are Arrow might actually be able to beat The Flash in a few areas.

    First the Zoom loves Caitlin stuff is just melodrama cranked up to the level of what was on Legends of Tomorrow with Vandal Savage loving Kendra. Also probably the Ras a Ghul telling Felicity to go be with Oliver in Arrow season 3.

    It would be nice if we actually get a villain on a change in the Arrowverse who doesn’t have women problems like so many of them have across the shows and like I’ve pointed out.
    The Patty Spivot melodrama of Barry flat out refusing to tell Patty when literally everybody else in their lives knows and everything that brought. Yeah it was kind of like watching a smaller version of the Olicty drama or the Lois loves the Blur but doesn’t realize it’s Clark, from Smallville.

    Considering Greg Berlanti wrote on Dawson's Creek which was a teen drama the melodrama stamp is rather obvious in all the shows he over sees.
    Now the whole Jay is Zoom, me I massively disliked that for the sole reason of wasting all the time spent on getting to know Jay only to turn out of being the bad guy.

    Ok we had that last year with Eobard and ok nice reveal but really using it for a second season in a row is just lazy. Because like I said wasted all that time.

    What they should have done is not introduce Hunter in 2x01 but instead just have it been Harry Wells from the start who comes in to say your world’s in danger. So that way when Zoom does finally unmask it’s just Hunter Zolomon and no useless Jay stuff.

    Still keep John Wesley Shipp reveal as Jay Garrick in 2x23 so that way, when he does come back we get to know the real Jay.

    I’m hardly surprised considering this is the same crew who brought the ridiculous “Slade loves Shado” in season 2 garbage. All just because Malcolm wanting to get revenge on his dead wife worked so well in season 1 of Arrow.

    This type of laziness is I guess common with Andrew Kreisberg and whoever else went with him.

    Now here comes the biggest thing of Barry becoming a killer and nobody bats an eye like it’s not even addressed. This is just one highlight of the show not taking certain things seriously on the things it needs to and instead just brushes by with a “well it’s lighter than Arrow.”

    Just for the killer thing alone, Joe hated and threw Oliver under the bus every change he got in season 1 for being a “serial killer” but doesn’t even care about Barry killing people in cold blood.

    These are the main reasons why I don’t find season 2 to be all that great and a few things apply to Flash over all.

  2. #2
    Posting Pro Aurora Moon's Avatar
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    I agree with most of those points, especially on the villains and their romances front.

    I honestly think that CW and Berlanti's people have a shipping addiction that they need to go to rehab for. Seriously, it's a huge problem they have. They literally can't even think of story-lines without shipping one or two people together... or without creating a love triangle.
    At the very least, they need to learn how to keep the relationships in the background while keeping the important story-lines in the front. Many good TV shows managed to let the relationship stuff play out in the background while other stuff was going on, all without the main story being hijacked by it.

    And to be honest, I don't remember Barry ever killing anybody? The time wrath killed Zoom, Not Barry.

  3. #3
    Pirate King Backward Galaxy's Avatar
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    My experience has been that most people consider season two a letdown, especially everything after the villain identity reveal.

  4. #4
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurora Moon View Post
    I agree with most of those points, especially on the villains and their romances front.

    I honestly think that CW and Berlanti's people have a shipping addiction that they need to go to rehab for. Seriously, it's a huge problem they have. They literally can't even think of story-lines without shipping one or two people together... or without creating a love triangle.
    At the very least, they need to learn how to keep the relationships in the background while keeping the important story-lines in the front. Many good TV shows managed to let the relationship stuff play out in the background while other stuff was going on, all without the main story being hijacked by it.

    And to be honest, I don't remember Barry ever killing anybody? The time wrath killed Zoom, Not Barry.
    I think he's talking about Sand Demon, Atom Smasher and Griffin Grey, but he's wrong in that Barry didn't kill any of them in cold blood. I have doubts that Grey was killed at all, considering he turned young again after he was defeated. Have a very great day!

    God bless you all!

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurora Moon View Post
    I agree with most of those points, especially on the villains and their romances front.

    I honestly think that CW and Berlanti's people have a shipping addiction that they need to go to rehab for. Seriously, it's a huge problem they have. They literally can't even think of story-lines without shipping one or two people together... or without creating a love triangle.
    At the very least, they need to learn how to keep the relationships in the background while keeping the important story-lines in the front. Many good TV shows managed to let the relationship stuff play out in the background while other stuff was going on, all without the main story being hijacked by it.

    And to be honest, I don't remember Barry ever killing anybody? The time wrath killed Zoom, Not Barry.
    For Barry killing?

    In 2x01 he led Atom Smasher full into a chamber and let the ration kill him on purpose.

    2x02 Barry used his power of throwing lightening to turn Sand Demon into glass.

    Those are the only two that come to mind. We've got the aging guy with super strength who Barry made him use up all his energy and died. Also Vandal Savage in the cross over which Barry and Oliver both "killed" him. I used quotations just because he's not dead or later died in Legends.For all intents and purposes they thought they where permanently killing Savage.

    For Zoom, in the 2x23 fight it was very clear when Barry used the same vibrating hand thing, as Eobard that Barry was probably going to kill Hunter if the time wraith's didn't show up. That's at least what I got from the scene.

    Hope this helps.

  6. #6
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    The Jay/Zoom-Caitlin stuff and Cisco's brief Kendra connection are cut from the same melodrama cloth that Olicity on Arrow is from. The volume setting re: Olicity may be louder, but it would be fair to say that Flash isn't exactly breaking new ground on ramping up the the angst in its plots for the sake of angst. Same melodrama in a different wrapper.

    I know Iris/Barry is supposed to be their alpha "ship", but I can't say I'm all that intrigued by it either. It didn't help that Iris' own story arcs weren't that great in S2.

    I didn't necessarily mind the Barry/Patty stuff so much in the beginning, it was there and didn't seem all-consuming at the time. How it ended was meh, but this was more to the actress moving on and the show had to just wrap up that ship asap.

    It did look early on like S2 Flash would run away with it and leave the rest of the Berlantiverse in the dust, but the inevitable CW / Berlanti DNA reared its head as the season played out. Zoom dropped from diabolical supervillain to a lovestruck sap. Cisco got entangled in a romance with a character that is now no longer on LoT's roster. (For all Darhk's scenery-chewing on Arrow, getting stuck in a meh romance subplot is one charge that can't be leveled at him. It's a charge that lovesick baddies Flash's Zoom and Savage on LoT both share.)

    Add to that any residual blowback from helping out with the launch of LoT and a lot of things helped to muddle S2.

    Arrow's been at it the longest so the fans have more "evidence" to sort through re: its failings, but in no way does this mean its junior TV cousins are in the clear. They've all made similar writing/plotting/characterization slip-ups too. Flash's less-than-spectacular S2 is merely proof of this

  7. #7
    Pirate King Backward Galaxy's Avatar
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    Iris had an arc? Heh.

  8. #8
    Posting Pro Aurora Moon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haggard01 View Post
    For Barry killing?

    In 2x01 he led Atom Smasher full into a chamber and let the ration kill him on purpose.

    2x02 Barry used his power of throwing lightening to turn Sand Demon into glass.

    Those are the only two that come to mind. We've got the aging guy with super strength who Barry made him use up all his energy and died. Also Vandal Savage in the cross over which Barry and Oliver both "killed" him. I used quotations just because he's not dead or later died in Legends.For all intents and purposes they thought they where permanently killing Savage.

    For Zoom, in the 2x23 fight it was very clear when Barry used the same vibrating hand thing, as Eobard that Barry was probably going to kill Hunter if the time wraith's didn't show up. That's at least what I got from the scene.

    Hope this helps.
    I remember now. To be honest, I don't see it as being on the same level as the arrow's deaths. It mainly had to do with the enemy being unstoppable threats to the Flash, so killing them seems to be out of self-defense more than anything else.

    The arrow mainly killed normal human mooks, etc. it wasn't like they were a major threat to everyone out there the same way Atom smasher and Sand Demon were.
    The Arrow wouldn't get so much flak if his enemies were actually a threat to everyone, just not him. I think that's the difference here. According to this link here: http://www.cbr.com/infographic-cbrs-...ow-kill-count/
    The arrow killed 55 people in season one... that kill count might had gone up over time slowly....
    Last edited by Aurora Moon; 08-31-2016 at 07:46 PM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurora Moon View Post
    I remember now. To be honest, I don't see it as being on the same level as the arrow's deaths. It mainly had to do with the enemy being unstoppable threats to the Flash, so killing them seems to be out of self-defense more than anything else.

    The arrow mainly killed normal human mooks, etc. it wasn't like they were a major threat to everyone out there the same way Atom smasher and Sand Demon were.
    The Arrow wouldn't get so much flak if his enemies were actually a threat to everyone, just not him. I think that's the difference here. According to this link here: http://www.cbr.com/infographic-cbrs-...ow-kill-count/
    The arrow killed 55 people in season one... that kill count might had gone up over time slowly....
    I actually wasn't really referring to them being on the same level but rather just the lack of reaction from well everyone. Even Barry who in 2x01 was pretty broken up over Mulitplex being dead but doesn't even blink an eye at Atom Smasher or any of the others? Kind of well like what's going on here guys? Because for Barry who all through out season 1 was more of a "Superman" boy scout then to just kill and not blink at it, is kind of strange to say the least.

    One thing about season 1 in Arrow is it's was before the time of The Flash and all that to where they treated it as the real world in a way. So Oliver killing guys to protect himself is in that "real world" type of setting. Especially if you've just got a bow and arrow with no real armor, yeah wasting time of trying to find a non lethal spot could mean your death.

    Which you can kind of tell the difference as soon as they begin bring in guys like The Flash how Oliver's methods change to more of that of a "non killing hero" with only killing in extreme times of crisis. Through they couldn't completely get rid of Oliver's past as The Hood, so it's just kind of stuck with them. I have to wonder if we got stuff like The Flash and more comic book things right in Arrow season 1, if Oliver would not have been so lethal.

    For human normal mooks, well I doubt the guys that where protecting Martin Summers or Leo Muller where not a threat. Those types I could probably say where murders, rapists, drug dealers, gun runners and a whole long list of criminals to the public.

    That link well is just not at all accurate. In late season 1 Quentin in a conversation with Roy and Thea said The Hood had only dropped 26 bodies. Which for a few episodes after that Oliver's body count didn't go up that much so probably I'd say by season 1 it's somewhere around 28-30.

  10. #10
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurora Moon View Post
    I remember now. To be honest, I don't see it as being on the same level as the arrow's deaths. It mainly had to do with the enemy being unstoppable threats to the Flash, so killing them seems to be out of self-defense more than anything else.

    The arrow mainly killed normal human mooks, etc. it wasn't like they were a major threat to everyone out there the same way Atom smasher and Sand Demon were.
    The Arrow wouldn't get so much flak if his enemies were actually a threat to everyone, just not him. I think that's the difference here. According to this link here: http://www.cbr.com/infographic-cbrs-...ow-kill-count/
    The arrow killed 55 people in season one... that kill count might had gone up over time slowly....
    People tend to also not recognize the fact that Oliver also had a hand in the murders of those Russian guards. But Barry, yes, may have killed people, but he didn't in cold blood, so it's not the same at all.

  11. #11
    Posting Pro Aurora Moon's Avatar
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    It's true that those normal-human mooks were dangerous in their ways. But I still think that anybody who were trained to fight would also be trained in how to take down targets non-lethally.
    After all, you do need to leave some people alive so that they can give you information, etc. But hey, that's just me... *shrugs*

    You do have a point that the lack of a reaction from everyone when Barry killed in self-defense was kind of strange. At the very least they could had barry say, "I wish there was another way." Before moving on with the plot.

  12. #12
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    Definitely a crappy sophomore year story-wise for Ms. West. Iris has been largely non-existent as a meaningful character in S2.

    If playing the part of Barry's primary on-again, off-again heartstring-puller can be considered a story arc, then Iris has been at it for two full seasons.

    Then she had that forgettable CCPN subplot about defending Barry's rep against the new editor's 'Bad Metas!' bias which spiraled into a weird maybe-romance (of course). Arrow gets a lot of knocks for wonky writing/plots where a character is spinning his/her wheels, but Flash is no slacker in this department -- at least where Iris is concerned.

    Arrow may have plenty of blood on his hands, but I think in Flash S3, the survivors of Havenrock would have a right to inquire of Flash 'What have you done for me lately?' I know it's a big assumption that such a cataclysmic event on Arrow would even register with Team Barry. Let's assume that it should. Flash fans want Flashpoint to ripple across the entire Flarrowverse? How about a nuclear weapon detonating over a U.S. city actually registering as big news with the people of CC -- Team Barry included? Iris should be all over that story like a Kardashian on a self-absorbed reality TV series.

    They want a shared universe, well, the door should swing both ways. Otherwise, the whole situation will make Barry and Co. look clueless and indifferent at best. At worst, it's a sin of omission at a superhero-level scale -- having the power/ability to actually make a difference in Havenrock, even in just finding or helping survivors ... and not doing a damn thing about it. One could argue that if Barry knew what a crisis Havenrock is, and he did nothing about it, this would be worse than Ollie getting his hands bloody as an outlaw vigilante. I'm going on the presumption that Havenrock is irreversible -- and won't be reset or retconned by Flashpoint (which I admit is also a possible outcome.)

    I think Ollie would argue that many of his kills were also in self-defence or to protect others, though I also believe many of them were out of expediency and even murder. The need to have Roy fake his death and claim the Hood/Arrow's crimes only shows that Ollie is at least aware that some of the things he's done were in fact criminal.

    Barry may not be racking up kills like Ollie, but some of his own actions aren't exactly above board either. And some are, if not technically illegal in their world, are morally/ethically questionable.

    Barry locking up metas without due process is also a cringe-worthy development of his war on "bad!" metas. I'm thinking Flash's writers might want to get in front of this irksome ethical loophole in Barry's mission. They might want to Febreze the stink of it, before it attaches itself to a future Justice Leaguer.

    Barry's hands may be "cleaner" by the narrowest definition of it, but I think the days when he could be perceived as mostly unsullied and pure compared to Ollie are well behind him. I'm guessing the fallout of Flashpoint will make this point too, as he won't be able to dodge responsibility for it.

  13. #13
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    Definitely a crappy sophomore year story-wise for Ms. West. Iris has been largely non-existent as a meaningful character in S2.

    If playing the part of Barry's primary on-again, off-again heartstring-puller can be considered a story arc, then Iris has been at it for two full seasons.

    Then she had that forgettable CCPN subplot about defending Barry's rep against the new editor's 'Bad Metas!' bias which spiraled into a weird maybe-romance (of course). Arrow gets a lot of knocks for wonky writing/plots where a character is spinning his/her wheels, but Flash is no slacker in this department -- at least where Iris is concerned.

    Arrow may have plenty of blood on his hands, but I think in Flash S3, the survivors of Havenrock would have a right to inquire of Flash 'What have you done for me lately?' I know it's a big assumption that such a cataclysmic event on Arrow would even register with Team Barry. Let's assume that it should. Flash fans want Flashpoint to ripple across the entire Flarrowverse? How about a nuclear weapon detonating over a U.S. city actually registering as big news with the people of CC -- Team Barry included? Iris should be all over that story like a Kardashian on a self-absorbed reality TV series.

    They want a shared universe, well, the door should swing both ways. Otherwise, the whole situation will make Barry and Co. look clueless and indifferent at best. At worst, it's a sin of omission at a superhero-level scale -- having the power/ability to actually make a difference in Havenrock, even in just finding or helping survivors ... and not doing a damn thing about it. One could argue that if Barry knew what a crisis Havenrock is, and he did nothing about it, this would be worse than Ollie getting his hands bloody as an outlaw vigilante. I'm going on the presumption that Havenrock is irreversible -- and won't be reset or retconned by Flashpoint (which I admit is also a possible outcome.)

    I think Ollie would argue that many of his kills were also in self-defence or to protect others, though I also believe many of them were out of expediency and even murder. The need to have Roy fake his death and claim the Hood/Arrow's crimes only shows that Ollie is at least aware that some of the things he's done were in fact criminal.

    Barry may not be racking up kills like Ollie, but some of his own actions aren't exactly above board either. And some are, if not technically illegal in their world, are morally/ethically questionable.

    Barry locking up metas without due process is also a cringe-worthy development of his war on "bad!" metas. I'm thinking Flash's writers might want to get in front of this irksome ethical loophole in Barry's mission. They might want to Febreze the stink of it, before it attaches itself to a future Justice Leaguer.

    Barry's hands may be "cleaner" by the narrowest definition of it, but I think the days when he could be perceived as mostly unsullied and pure compared to Ollie are well behind him. I'm guessing the fallout of Flashpoint will make this point too, as he won't be able to dodge responsibility for it.
    I know some might not like this, but it's not the Flash tv show's job to clean up Arrow's mistakes. The nuclear thing was just a bad idea that clearly no one thought through in the writing process and it seems pretty obvious that the Flash and Arrow writers stopped talking to each other at some point in the 2nd half of the season. The Flash ignored it, as well it should. The further Flash gets away from it the better. Legality isn't really the issue. Have a very great day!

    God bless you all!
    Last edited by Dagenspear; 08-31-2016 at 10:32 PM.

  14. #14
    Battle Troll DJ Doena's Avatar
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    For me, a kill always has to be taken in context. For example, on Smallville Clark deliverately threw a guy into a lake, full knowing that this was going to end badly for the guy (it was set up earlier in the episode). This was only the 5th episode of the show (Cool). But the guy had overpowered Clark once already and was about to do it again and was threatening other people's live (Lex, the Kents, Lana), so Clark did what he had to do to stop the guy.

    For me, an unjustified superhero kill is one where there would have been other options. For example in Arrow's first season where Oliver kills some mook guards because he wanted to get into somewhere.

    I can't actively recall such a kill on The Flash, but I may have forgotten it.

    I was spoiled about the Jay/Zoom thing before I started to watch the season. It did't make more sense watching it this way either because it didn't look like they were going this way from the beginning. There were no hints or subtle clues (because as a spoiled one I was looking out for them) - unlike with Eobard in S1.

    While I did like parts of S2, I have to agree with the general sentiment. Zoom's character, actions and motivations didn't make a whole lot of sense and the entire season suffered for it.

    Since I never actually read Flash comics beside Flashpoint and I already read the news about S3: Doesn't the Flash have other enemies other than other speedsters?

  15. #15
    Posting Pro Aurora Moon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    Arrow may have plenty of blood on his hands, but I think in Flash S3, the survivors of Havenrock would have a right to inquire of Flash 'What have you done for me lately?' I know it's a big assumption that such a cataclysmic event on Arrow would even register with Team Barry. Let's assume that it should. Flash fans want Flashpoint to ripple across the entire Flarrowverse? How about a nuclear weapon detonating over a U.S. city actually registering as big news with the people of CC -- Team Barry included? Iris should be all over that story like a Kardashian on a self-absorbed reality TV series.

    They want a shared universe, well, the door should swing both ways. Otherwise, the whole situation will make Barry and Co. look clueless and indifferent at best. At worst, it's a sin of omission at a superhero-level scale -- having the power/ability to actually make a difference in Havenrock, even in just finding or helping survivors ... and not doing a damn thing about it. One could argue that if Barry knew what a crisis Havenrock is, and he did nothing about it, this would be worse than Ollie getting his hands bloody as an outlaw vigilante. I'm going on the presumption that Havenrock is irreversible -- and won't be reset or retconned by Flashpoint (which I admit is also a possible outcome.)
    A very excellent point. But, at times the Flash-Arrow crossover EPs are often the worst, badly-written eps that I've seen. And sometimes the timelines between the two shows don't even sync up properly, leading to some confusion for fans. Which leads me to think that maybe Dagenspear is right-- That the Flash and Arrow needs some distance between them. Crossovers are supposed to be fun because it's often rare to have the two heroes team up. But that fun is gone if it's practically mandatory for them to have badly written crossovers each season.
    Why not have fun, non-canon crossovers for most of them unless the Arrow writers really needed Barry for a plot and vice versa?

    There can be plenty of good reasons for why the Flash wasn't there to help out with that event. For instance... something big was happening in Flash's city too when it was happening...Then the flash was just shocked to hear about what happened in Arrow's city. But, he couldn't go over there to help with the aftermath, because he had to deal with a villain who were threatening to destroy everything at the time.
    But this would be a good opportunity for Iris to go away for a little bit, like you pointed out. The writers don't seem to know what to do with her, so it could be a chance for Iris to actually do her job... by going over there to document everything and report it on the news. Ta-da, her absence for a few eps are explained away while we focus on the plot.

    Barry may not be racking up kills like Ollie, but some of his own actions aren't exactly above board either. And some are, if not technically illegal in their world, are morally/ethically questionable.

    Barry locking up metas without due process is also a cringe-worthy development of his war on "bad!" metas. I'm thinking Flash's writers might want to get in front of this irksome ethical loophole in Barry's mission. They might want to Febreze the stink of it, before it attaches itself to a future Justice Leaguer.

    Barry's hands may be "cleaner" by the narrowest definition of it, but I think the days when he could be perceived as mostly unsullied and pure compared to Ollie are well behind him. I'm guessing the fallout of Flashpoint will make this point too, as he won't be able to dodge responsibility for it.
    I do agree that locking up metas like that brings up all kinds of ethical questions. that's the one thing that Barry's definitely guilty of.
    Last edited by Aurora Moon; 09-01-2016 at 12:33 AM.

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