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Are Legends & Arrow not written with comic book fans in mind?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Aurora Moon
    Strange, I don't recall Chloe being the creator's pet... if anything it was always the opposite. she was always the butt-monkey of relationships and nobody ever talked about how great she was constantly.
    I think the essence of the comment refers both to how Chloe was a fairly original character of the show's creators and that she was a sentimental favorite because of the way she was portrayed. I remember there being a great deal of backlash to the Lana character from fans, while Chloe was the darling that made a lot of people fall in love with the show in its early seasons. I originally tuned in to Smallville because it was linked to the Superman mythos, but I liked the show early on primarily because I fell in love with Chloe. She was also very much a proto-Lois in that she was a plucky journalist constantly getting herself into trouble while pursuing the truth. This meant that the creators probably intentionally set her up to be more likable to Superman fans, since she reminded us all of a character we loved but couldn't have (yet).

    So while the fan backlash against the Lana character is probably closer to what we're seeing with the Felicity character, Chloe might be a better comparison in that she was a mostly original creation meant to entice fans while fulfilling a role that ultimately wasn't hers to fill.
    Last edited by Backward Galaxy; 09-13-2016, 06:56 AM.

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    • #32
      Hmm. good point.

      Maybe there's a lesson to be learned here? Namely, how to create likable original characters for a Superhero show.
      How to create a original character that's loved by most fans in four steps:
      1) No Character shilling at all. Not ever.
      2)Make the character work hard to earn her happy ending. Hell, give her the buttmonkey status for a little bit so that the fans feel sorry for her. The fans will then demand that she be paired up with a superhero who will always be there for her.
      3) Make her similar to another DC character, but not in a way that would replace the original DC character. reveal the fact that she's actually related to the DC character, and that will explain why the two are so similar. It's in their genes!
      4) Profit!!

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      • #33
        I think the lesson to be learned is that an original character needs to actually be original. Don't just make the character a ripoff of someone fans know and identify with, because fans will just be mad that the character is filling a role that doesn't belong to them. In addition, if you're going to bring in a character from the comics, you had better intend on depicting that character in a way that respects the canon and doesn't change the character into something else. Either do the character or do something else. Don't halfway that nonsense.

        The other lesson to be learned is that viewers don't like it when characters are artificially inflated to give them purpose. They did it on SV with Lana, and then Chloe when she became Oracle-lite, and then Lois when she all of a sudden became a great reporter. They've done it on Arrow with Felicity. They're basically doing it with Iris on Flash. It seems like it's a problem with the women, but I think that's a coincidence that results from the leads all being straight men and the showrunners not having a legitimate plan for their leads' love interests beyond being the love interest. That angle only stretches so far before they realize, "Crap, we need to actually do something with this character" and then it's Pink Power Ranger Lana Lang or I Can Hack Any Computer On The Planet Earth Chloe/Felicity or Suddenly I'm A Great Reporter Lois/Iris.

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        • #34
          Agreed. We also saw a male example of that on Legends of Tomorrow, with Hal Carter being Hawkgirl's love interest. It was like nobody knew what to do with him because he was just a love interest for a woman. The worst part is how much it crippled Kendra's personality too.

          It honestly made me wish that Kendra was more like Shiera from Justice League Unlimited in terms of personality. It'd be nice if she was the type that didn't believe in things like fate, etc... at least at first. Maybe even bring up excellent points on why being "destined ones" aren't that romantic to start with... it takes free will away from the couple for one thing. What if they fell in love with other people first?

          I think there was ways to explore that idea and stuff without being overly mushy and melodramatic about it. Balance it out with the Hawks doing some ass-kicking etc... and have Kendera come to terms with the fact that she really, really loves being a warrior more than she thought.
          In a way it was like character shilling.... we keep on hearing about how she's a warrior priestess, and so on forth.... yet we never saw much of that warrior that Carter apparently fell in love with. She acted like a character in a cheap romance novel instead.

          Ditto with Carter. He keeps on talking about how they keep on falling for each other, etc. but we actually never see that he has a personality, his own life, etc. He's just kind of... bland. He's just so focused on being the love interest to Kendra, and nothing else. And it makes me wonder why Kendra even falls for him in the first place. Oh right... because destiny and fate says so.

          It makes me think of this quote: "Fate is a fickle ***** who dotes on irony."
          In other words... Fate is very unexpected, volatile. It can't be trusted. Nor it should be. And to add to the spice, it is best friends of irony.
          So Fate is an entity that has the personality of a troll... it's trolling people by creating the worst pairings ever, etc.
          It would had added on to Legends of Tomorrow's "Fate can go **** itself!" theme very nicely. If you know what I mean.
          Last edited by Aurora Moon; 09-13-2016, 12:00 PM.

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          • #35
            Generally speaking, if you have an hour-long television show that airs 22 times a year and lasts for multiple seasons, the members of your cast whose sole purpose for existence is "love interest" will get exposed. These CW shows are practically a "how to" in that regard, but it's evident all over the place. Look at Jane Foster in Thor 2. Does it shock anyone that Natalie Portman wanted out after that?

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            • #36
              I think there's a right way to write love interests, even if it's pretty clear that their sole purpose is to be somebody's love interest. I mean, Take Lois Lane for instance. In her earliest appearances it was pretty obvious that she was just a love interest for superman, yet they still had her doing interesting things like exposing a corrupt politician's misdeeds. Considering that Clark aka Kal-EL was in the business of exposing corrupt people himself, it was easy to see why they made a nice match.

              I guess that's the thing, isn't it? bad writers assume that a love interest just has to stand there and look pretty... But the best writers know that they need to be given something to do. Something that makes us see why the main hero fell for her in the first place.

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              • #37
                Yes, exactly. We have to know that these are two fully formed people and why each loves the other. If I were restarting Flash for example, the Iris character needs to be treated like the second lead with her own arc and reasons for being. Barry is 1, Iris is 1A.... not the villain, not Joe, not Cisco.... Iris. Treat her like it's her show and she's just as important as Barry, because, well, she is.

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                • #38
                  Especially because they decided to have them grow up together in the same house like pseudo-siblings. Sorry, Still not over that.
                  To me that's one of the major roadblocks of this ship for me personally. If I restarted the flash all over again, that's the one thing I would get rid of.

                  I would rather that Barry went to live with some relatives, and that Joe West constantly checked up on Barry. This way Joe west could still become a second father figure to Barry, but Barry wouldn't have that weird Pseudo-sibling relationship with Iris at the start.

                  I would also have Iris start off as a newscaster from day one. That would give her a purpose to be in the background of most scenes... reporting the events live on TV. This would allow us to have her presence there without Iris ever needing to be in the same room as the star labs crew. And she could be live on the scene reporting events as they occur too, which allows for plenty of chances for her to see the Flash in action. The best part? Being an newscaster wouldn't prevent her from running a blog.. so even if her superiors were skeptical of the flash at first she could still do that.
                  The best part about being on TV? This gives the writer an out if they realize that they haven't been doing too much with Iris for a few episodes. They can just say that she was busy reporting certain events, and then show her on TV. Then she comes home to her father complaining about how overworked she is.
                  It's such a simple solution to this problem, that I can't help but wonder why they didn't do that in the first place.

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                  • #39
                    The pseudo-sibling thing bothered me a little at first, but not as much as Henry being okay with the cop who put him away taking his kid. I never understood that one. If I was Henry, my head would have exploded.

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                    • #40
                      I was under the impression that they knew each other before the murder took place.... and that Henry asked Joe to watch over his son. But maybe that's just a headcanon of mine and not canon?

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                      • #41
                        That could be true, but wouldn't affect my issue with it. Joe is the cop who investigated the murder and arrested Henry for it. Joe is the reason Henry went to jail and then he is the one who takes in Barry. I would've lost my mind if I was Henry.

                        But I digress. We are getting off topic. Writing for the fans or not, I think we can all agree they have some work to do with respect to certain characters when it comes to justifying their presence in an organic and three dimensional light.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Aurora Moon
                          Originally posted by Backward Galaxy
                          but not as much as Henry being okay with the cop who put him away taking his kid. I never understood that one. If I was Henry, my head would have exploded.
                          I was under the impression that they knew each other before the murder took place.... and that Henry asked Joe to watch over his son. But maybe that's just a headcanon of mine and not canon?
                          That was my understanding as well, because in a flashback Joe tells someone that "his son is friends with my daughter" and them being very young would imply that the parents have at least met each other.

                          And I don't know how involved Joe actually was in the murder case. Yes, he believed Henry to be guilty but that doesn't mean he was the lead detective (after all he was 14 years younger back then).

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