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Are Legends & Arrow not written with comic book fans in mind?

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  • #16
    I remember how confused I was in ep 3.01 when out of nowhere, so it seemed to me, Oliver declared his love for Felicity. I thought: "When did THAT happen??"

    Of course, not being an Arrow 2.5 comics fan, apparently I missed out on a lot of crucial information in the comics that showed them bonding.

    As someone who does not read comics, I'm so glad MG tailors the show so that we don't have to have read comics to "get" the show & understand what's going on

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Shelby Kent
      I remember how confused I was in ep 3.01 when out of nowhere, so it seemed to me, Oliver declared his love for Felicity. I thought: "When did THAT happen??"

      Of course, not being an Arrow 2.5 comics fan, apparently I missed out on a lot of crucial information in the comics that showed them bonding.

      As someone who does not read comics, I'm so glad MG tailors the show so that we don't have to have read comics to "get" the show & understand what's going on
      Actually, it was the Season 2 finale where he first declared his love... and I thought it was a ruse to lure out Slade. I remember when it happened at first though I was yelling at my TV, because it seemed out of nowhere.

      I wasn't really against Olicity, though, but I liked more of an idea of something great that could happen much, much later. But then combined with the behavior of that fan group... it made me care less and less.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by KSiteTV
        Weird thing about the comics/TV separation: Marc Guggenheim has written some REALLY GOOD comic books. I hear his current Agents of SHIELD comic is at times better than the show. I'm surprised he's not more loving and supportive of that aspect of things.
        He wrote also quite good episodes, even recently-I liked "Star City 2046" in LOT-it was enjoyable to watch, despite some plot holes.

        Originally posted by darkphoenix21
        I'm a non-comic book reader but, love these shows. I have to agree with Marc Guggenheim, he can't craft these shows with the goal to cater to 10% (for example) of audiences that know everything about these characters. Even amongst the comic book readers you can't please everyone. At the end of the day he has to make the best show that will get the most views.

        The source material is a great reference point for these show (amongst other mediums) however, has the source materials ever match what has been shown in other mediums? I'm going to take a wild guess and say most of the time it's a no.
        That's not the point-the final product can diverge very far from the source material, and still be a good production. Without a Clue which is a comedy about Sherlock Holmes without Sherlock Holmes is much more Holmesian movie than the one with Robert Downey Jr. which was named Sherlock Holmes solely to draw people to cinema. On the other end there is a tv show The Musketeers BBC, which stated from the very beginning that it's based only on Alexandre Dumas's characters, so I, as Dumas's fan, knew from the very beginning to what I'm signing to. Magnificent Seven (tv show, not the newest reboot) pulled out from the orignal what was the most important-a bunch of guys with various agenda who gather together to protect those who cannot protect themselves. Now, how much is worth the story about modern Robin Hood who doesn't care any more about little guys? Why this show is even called Arrow if he hardly shoots any arrow and when archery from being shown quite accurate turned into self-parody?

        Adaptation can be another version of the same story. Sadly Arrow is neither an adaptation, nor a good show any more.

        Originally posted by Shelby Kent
        I remember how confused I was in ep 3.01 when out of nowhere, so it seemed to me, Oliver declared his love for Felicity. I thought: "When did THAT happen??"

        Of course, not being an Arrow 2.5 comics fan, apparently I missed out on a lot of crucial information in the comics that showed them bonding.

        As someone who does not read comics, I'm so glad MG tailors the show so that we don't have to have read comics to "get" the show & understand what's going on
        Lol. I've tried to read this comic and abandoned it after few issues. It was both awfully written and awfully drawn (a rare combination, because usually at least one of those is decent!), which was a huge disappointment after the season 1 anthology, which is still one of my favorite comics.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by KSiteTV
          Actually, it was the Season 2 finale where he first declared his love... and I thought it was a ruse to lure out Slade. I remember when it happened at first though I was yelling at my TV, because it seemed out of nowhere.

          I wasn't really against Olicity, though, but I liked more of an idea of something great that could happen much, much later. But then combined with the behavior of that fan group... it made me care less and less.
          Oh I remember the S2 finale declaration. And at the moment it happened, I thought it was weird but by the end of the ep, I understood it to be a ruse, which made sense to me b/c throughout all of S2, while I did see that they were writing Felicity to have feelings for Oliver, I never saw those same kinds of feelings reciprocated by Oliver. That is why I say that in S3.01 when they had him "for real" declare his love, to me it came out of nowhere b/c I never saw the buildup of those feelings on his side. And while there are viewers who say they did see Oliver's feelings in S2 (and those like me who say they did not), when I mentioned the -- to me -- lack of buildup, I remember some people telling me that if I had read the 2.5 comics I would have seen more evidence of them growing close. And I thought that was ridiculous that I should have to read Arrow 2.5 comics to understand what was going on in the show.

          But with regard to Olicity, I didn't mind the idea b/c I understood that most likely they were going to put Oliver in a serious romance at some time. Of course I always assumed at the start that it would be him getting back w/ Laurel. But I had a problem w/ supporting that pairing b/c they decided to give them the backstory of the sister-cheating; and then of course when they brought Sara back they had Oliver & Sara starting right back up all over again and even going to dinner w/ Laurel and the Lances as a couple -- like two insensitive jerks. But for me, the execution of Olicity failed, and it started failing as early as midway in S2 when they began to write Felicity, to me, in a pathetic way. They began to strip from her the qualities that I had liked.

          This person really captures what I am trying to describe about how they wrote her in S2 as I saw it.

          Sadie Says: Olicity should never happen. I don't hateFelicity, but I do hate the notion of her as a love interest for Oliver. Felicity is Oliver's first post-Island female relationship that hasn't led to romance, which is exactly why it should stay that way. In a refreshing gender reversal, he's only interested in what's between her ears — not her legs. I love that Ollie doesn't objectify her (because she is, without a doubt, hot), but I wish Felicity was equally unfazed by Oliver. Yes, he's constantly flaunting those abs and biceps, but that doesn't mean she has to turn into a slack-jawed school girl every time. I can understand if the producers want Felicity to act as an in-show surrogate for our own ogling gaze, but I can't root for their potential romance when just the thought of his body infantilizes her.


          Anyway, regarding MG's famous quote:

          My favorite fans of the shows are the people who are not comic book fans. The truth of the matter is that a wildly successful comic book today sells 80,000 copies, but 80,000 viewers does not keep any show on the air. None of these shows exist without people who are not fans of the comics. We’re not burying you in backstory and the minutiae of who these characters are.
          I strongly dislike what he said b/c I don't see the point in being disrespectful publicly about a portion of your fanbase. Sure, he's human and, in the privacy of his home and among friends, he may very well want to talk badly about some fans. But no one HAS to watch his show, which means that this is a product that people are choosing to invest in (time-wise and emotionally) and I can see no benefit in valuing one group of people who help support one's product over another group. It is highly unprofessional and it's very arrogant. And I'm not a comicbook fan, so technically I am one of his favorite fans , yet I find this kind of behavior from a showrunner -- to elevate one group of fans over another -- to be distasteful, even though I am the one of the lucky Elevated Many. As much as I dislike the online behavior of the more rabid Olicity fans, I would not even like to see him publicly "demote" them as lesser-than, b/c it just offends me that a showrunner would assign value to various fan-groups. Basically, he's categorizing and then generalizing his fans (all comicbook fans want to bury people in backstory and minutiae) and then he's indicating a preference for the majority, in large part b/c they are the majority. Hmm... sounds like a lot of stereotyping and prejudice to me. If he wanted to give credit to his noncomic book fans and speak of what he values about them, he could have done that without establishing a favoritism gradient between noncomic book fans and comicbook fans.

          I won't dispute that viewers other than just comic book fan viewers are needed in order to provide enough ratings to keep a show on the air, but when he claims that none of these shows would exist without non-comicbook fans he fails to also credit the role that comicbook fans have played. Seems to me, the fact that these characters are around so that he can use them and their stories and adapt them in the first place and get the shows up and running is because over the decades there were comicbook fans that kept the characters and stories "alive." If comic fans don't matter, and if he doesn't want to write his own original characters and original superhero stories (such as giving us more No Ordinary Familys!), then why not go back and find comic books that "failed" with fans, stories that were cancelled after only 1 or 2 editions were put out (or however that works) with characters that most of us have never heard of (b/c of course they were not successful w/ fans and "died"), and use those characters and stories to adapt for a TV show? Why keep using characters from established comics?

          I believe he gets the greenlight to do these shows b/c these characters and names do have a "headstart" in name and story recognition that allows them to get some initial traction and therefore studios are willing to invest in them and take the risk. And again that is b/c comics fans kept these characters alive over decades by reading the printed stories, which was the only way to have access to and engage with most of these characters for a very long time.

          Another thing about his comment is that if you look at it line by line, he doesn't even ever really tell us what it is he likes about his non-comicbook fan fans. Almost every line is nothing more than disparaging, or shading, comic book fans. First, we learn comic book fans are not his favorites, so they are not as valued or as preferred. There are only 80,000 of them; they are in the minority. They are to be given no credit for contributing to the show's existence. And finally we can infer that comicbook fans would have us non-comicbook fans be buried (nice death & suffocation imagery there...) in backstory and minutiae (a.k.a. trivial details). Truly, when I read his quote I really can not tell you what positive attributes noncomic book fans bring to a showrunner's writing & producing experience, but I can tell you that my comicbook fan colleagues are second-class citizens in MG's world.

          And finally, what is this "buried in backstory and the minutiae of who these characters are"? Is that really just code for the fact that he doesn't want to have to spend time developing his characters, providing proper motivation and showing & exploring normal human reactions/emotions to events; but rather, like other posters such as @Amarice & @evaba have pointed out, he wants to be able to just move characters from one point to another, merely having them do whatever it takes for the sake of plot, regardless of how much sense it makes for a particular character to act in the way MG has them act for the sake of his plot? So that, for instance, when Felicity miraculously stands up from her wheelchair, his giant symbolic moment of her walking right out on her man needn't be interrupted by the normal human reactions that would be expected in such a situation, especially that would be expected of two people whom we have been made to understand have a deep love for each other. No: b/c having Oliver and Felicity smile, cry, and embrace with joy at her miraculous recovery (which is what would be normal) would ruin his big symbolic plot point. And of course that's much more important than writing characters who react in a believable way, isn't it? Really, I guess I'm insulted, as a non-comic book fan, that it's assumed that I -- unlike those pesky comicbook fan people -- don't want good writing. Alas, I guess I'll just have to comfort myself with the knowledge that I am a favorite fan

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          • #20
            Was reading the interview again. Anyone picked up on this?

            Mick Rory seemed to be the one most surprised by the fact that he could actually fit in, in some way, with this team, and that he might actually even like them.

            GUGGENHEIM: Oh, absolutely! That’s the fun thing. This year, we want him to fall in love with someone and be like, “What are feelings?!” He’s so much fun. He’s fun to write, and Dominic [Purcell] is obviously really enjoying playing him. I think Rory ends up stealing a lot of the scenes that he’s in.
            Because romance clearly worked so well for this show last season. This guy is incorrigible. Rory was one of the few decent parts about LoT and they'll wind up ruining him too.
            Last edited by costas22; 08-26-2016, 12:35 AM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Shelby Kent
              I won't dispute that viewers other than just comic book fan viewers are needed in order to provide enough ratings to keep a show on the air, but when he claims that none of these shows would exist without non-comicbook fans he fails to also credit the role that comicbook fans have played. Seems to me, the fact that these characters are around so that he can use them and their stories and adapt them in the first place and get the shows up and running is because over the decades there were comicbook fans that kept the characters and stories "alive." If comic fans don't matter, and if he doesn't want to write his own original characters and original superhero stories (such as giving us more No Ordinary Familys!), then why not go back and find comic books that "failed" with fans, stories that were cancelled after only 1 or 2 editions were put out (or however that works) with characters that most of us have never heard of (b/c of course they were not successful w/ fans and "died"), and use those characters and stories to adapt for a TV show? Why keep using characters from established comics?

              I believe he gets the greenlight to do these shows b/c these characters and names do have a "headstart" in name and story recognition that allows them to get some initial traction and therefore studios are willing to invest in them and take the risk. And again that is b/c comics fans kept these characters alive over decades by reading the printed stories, which was the only way to have access to and engage with most of these characters for a very long time.
              ^This.

              Arrow was on the radar because it was the comics fans that kept it on the radar, fed that intangible "buzz" for it, long before "non-comics" fans bought into it. Arrow got on the map largely because the comics fans they're now disparaging rallied behind the show when it first aired. Now that the show is running on its own steam, MG/the network's shot-callers etc. feel they don't need the comics fans anymore? [Translation: they know they've alienated a chunk of their fans, who were likely the most loyal in the beginning -- but TPTB feel they no longer require their loyalty the way they absolutely needed it when the show was starting out.]

              The average comics fans in the fandom don't need Twitter shout-outs or gushing network interviews professing their love of comics and their fans. Just show due respect to the source material that put the show on the map in the first place. There is always going to be a bit of the 'you can't please everyone' side to it when we're dealing with such a wide audience including comics and non-comics fans alike. There will always be sticklers for this or that particular canon (from a particular era, comics interpretation, writer etc.) and on the flip side those who get their backs up when the melodrama/shipping etc is scaled back or given less attention.

              It's balance that's needed, where most fans -comics fans or not- will accept and even embrace their adaptation. They had this in earlier seasons -- but it's something most comics fans of Arrow would say was lost from S3 on.

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              • #22
                Balance is exactly what's missing, President Luthor! Guggenheim doesn't seem to realize that it's possible to please BOTH sides of the fanbase (though really, there's more than just 'comics fans and non comics fans' since none of us are part of a hive mind based on our chosen reading materials)

                And like you said, comics fans built up the buzz and I honestly don't think that Arrow would have gotten past season 2 (and maybe not even season 1) without that name recognition. Ultimately, properties featuring original superheroes don't fare very well because the market is so saturated with versions that people know and love and would rather watch.

                And let's say that comics fans only make up 80,000 viewers at this point. Let's say they don't need them and are comfortable actively driving them away. Are the show's ratings so high that losing 80,000 fans in one go would be a drop in the bucket and wouldn't make a difference to the ratings? Or would it have been better to at least not try to alienate a chunk of the fanbase like this.

                That said, I'm going to enjoy watching the fallout of this openly hostile attitude towards "comics fans." The sooner Arrow goes the way of the dodo, the sooner it's likely that someone else who loves the comics and the fans of the comics will take a bash at a reboot of the character. I'm okay with waiting a decade or two if it means we get a better adaptation next time around.

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                • #23
                  Smallville had its shipper stuff but it also never veered from being a TV show about Superman. It lasted for ten years. They weren't slavish to the comics but still created something where the core essence - in that case, Superman - was there. And, like Arrow, fans initially tuned in because it was a young Superman show. A lot of the people who liked Smallville or liked comics first got hooked based on the notion that they'd see Green Arrow, Black Canary, and people like that on the series.

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                  • #24
                    SV, despite its re-interpretations of canon, did keep the essence of what Clark and Superman were about. And there were some canonical lines that they would not cross -- to SV's credit -- no matter how much some fans wanted them to cross or even break them. Some of the re-interpretations might not have been embraced or even liked by Supes fans, but the Superman essence was still there.

                    With Arrow, I think it still clings to parts of this GA essence it had. Ollie entering the political arena is one sign that it hasn't completely lost its way. Same with the potential of the S5 flashbacks -- even they know they can't retcon or sugar-coat the penultimate flashback year when Ollie will claim his Hood persona. The GA essence is not gone yet, but it's like a flickering candle that could go out -- at least this is how it seems to some fans. They're worried that Arrow has crossed some canonical lines (killing off BC etc.), not concerning itself with achieving even the appearance of balance, and may continue to do so.

                    It's balance. SV at least tried to balance the comic canon with the melodrama. Depending on one's viewpoint. SV either was too slavish in catering to melodrama in S1-7 and got back on track focusing on more comics action S8-10 -- or SV was exactly the show fans wanted in S1-7 and then lost its way in S8-10 by becoming more comics-canon friendly. Even this indicates that there was a series-wide attempt to please most of the fans. Successful or not in achieving this balance, the attempt was there during SV's run.

                    On Arrow? Maybe we'll have to see how the series ends before we can pass any final judgment on whether they are able to restore some balance to Arrow as a TV series that it appears to have misplaced since S3. I'm cautiously optimistic Arrow S5 may be sort of like SV from S8-, when it got some of its own comics/melodrama balance back.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by President_Luthor
                      On Arrow? Maybe we'll have to see how the series ends before we can pass any final judgment on whether they are able to restore some balance to Arrow as a TV series that it appears to have misplaced since S3. I'm cautiously optimistic Arrow S5 may be sort of like SV from S8-, when it got some of its own comics/melodrama balance back.
                      Inform me if that happens, because by the look of that (MG's quoting the article "Enough with the canon" and his last tweet about comic book fans) it seems that they not only don't care about keeping up apperances that it's still about Ollie, but also are going to take extra care that absolutely nothing from the comic books makes its way into the tv show.

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                      • #26
                        From what I've seen/read of the new season (not much, as I'm not that attuned to all spoilers), it's the flashbacks that I may be more interested in compared to present-day. Ollie training a new crew of rookie vigilantes? We've been there, done that re: Roy, Laurel, Thea. Not sure how much new ground they'll break with Team Arrow: The Next Generation. And enough said about Olicity, it'll be the same serving of cheese.

                        It's also possible that whoever is cutting their promos/previews hasn't got a clue what the S5 story is actually about. It still looks like a mish-mash of disjointed teasers and possibly misdirected foreshadowing, aka reading tea leaves. From what little I can gather: Laurel's got a statue, the Arrowcave is going to need a bigger locker room, Tyreese from TWD survived the zombie apocalypse to become an underworld shot-caller and Flashback Ollie lost his barber's points card (no free haircut after 10th visit, sorry Ollie) and found himself in a Russian fight club. Oh, and Drago from Rocky IV will likely have the chance to kick the crap out of him.

                        Maybe Ollie will wake up from a penicillin tea-induced haze, finding himself at the foot of that mountain in Nanda Parbat:

                        "Ollie: I - I survived the duel with Ra's Al Ghul.

                        Tatsu: Yes, with a little help from my penicillin tea and several bowls of Mr. Noodles ramen.

                        Ollie: You mean, I dreamed all of S4? There's no magic? I didn't go to Ivy Town to join that spin class with those snobs the Hendriksens? And Thea didn't get another disposable boyfriend?

                        Tatsu: No magic, no Thea exes, and no, umm, spin classes with snobs. And now you must fulfill your destiny.

                        Maseo: My lord, with news of your survival, you have ascended as the primary candidate and chief claimant to the throne of Ra's Al Ghul. *offers a sword* Take your place at the head of your army in the valley below. They will march at your command. And Ra's head will adorn his citadel's walls by nightfall. To victory!

                        Ollie: Yesss, Flashpoint worked! Good job, Barry. I mean, 'Summon my chariot, unfurl my battle standard and muster the infantry! Let's do this, Maseo'."

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                        • #27
                          Arrow can have 100 Felicity's in the show for all I care, BUT...they need to have the core of Green Arrow comic lore in the show, period. Which means Green Arrow and BLACK CANARY. And those two need to be lovers or at least the end game for those 2 to end up together. MG can construct the rest of the show how he wants, but it's crucial to have Black Canary in a show about Green Arrow.


                          Chloe in Smallville is what you could consider the Felicity of Arrow, but at least that show did the right thing and had Lois and Clark as the end game. Just imagine if Clark and Chloe ended up together in the end, instead? There would've been lots of rioting for sure, lol. I was fine with Chloe because at least Smallville stayed true to the comic source with the Lois and Clark pairing.....Arrow should follow their lead and do the same for Oliver/Black Canary......oh wait, that's right, Black Canary is dead.
                          Last edited by TheSecretVampire; 09-01-2016, 07:25 PM.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by TheSecretVampire
                            Arrow should follow their lead and do the same for Oliver/Black Canary......oh wait, that's right, Black Canary is dead.
                            At least Oliver ended up being the love of Laurel's life.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by TheSecretVampire
                              Chloe in Smallville is what you could consider the Felicity of Arrow, but at least that show did the right thing and had Lois and Clark as the end game. Just imagine if Clark and Chloe ended up together in the end, instead? There would've been lots of rioting for sure, lol. I was fine with Chloe because at least Smallville stayed true to the comic source with the Lois and Clark pairing.....Arrow should follow their lead and do the same for Oliver/Black Canary......oh wait, that's right, Black Canary is dead.
                              Strange, I don't recall Chloe being the creator's pet... if anything it was always the opposite. she was always the butt-monkey of relationships and nobody ever talked about how great she was constantly.

                              Why did you think there was such a uproar about Chloe needing her own hero who would always be there for her? Because in the past all her boyfriends were psychos, killers, or just straight up treated her like ****. one got killed off too. If Chloe wasn't treated like such a butt-monkey of relationships then I doubt that she would had ended up with Ollie, because nobody would be demanding that Chloe needs her own hero to be with. The only reason why Chloe ended up with Oliver is because the fans got tired of how poorly Chloe was being treated and made their opinions known.

                              If anything the honor of being the creator's pet goes to Lana Lang, with all the character shillings she had... Felicity is only slightly worse than Lana Lang in that respect.
                              Random character in the background: "*sighs* Lana Lang is so awesome. She opened her own business at the tender age of 14! I wish I had the same business savvy she does! I don't even know Lana Lang personally or even met her at all... I'm just randomly saying this stuff!"
                              (Somebody actually said something similar to this in the school Reunion episode. gag!)
                              Last edited by Aurora Moon; 09-13-2016, 07:01 AM.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Aurora Moon
                                (Somebody actually said something similar to this in the school Reunion episode. gag!)
                                Infamously known as "punch bowl Maddie"

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