Season 5 Predictions/Speculation

[Dagenspear]

If there were no LoT series to launch ... why would they need to do those stories with Ray and Sara to begin with? This was my point.

Without LoT, what would be the reason or purpose to resurrect Sara? -- a subplot which most fans would say made little sense in the context of the S4 Arrowverse.

I've yet to read any convincing reason why bringing back Sara, outside of the context of LoT, made any sense story-wise within Arrow itself. (And 'because the fans like her' isn't one of them.) I've felt bringing Sara back sort of undercut some of Nyssa's motives for challenging Malcolm, which up until Sara's rebirth had been her main reason for despising him. Hard to avenge the death of her beloved when said beloved is living and breathing again. It was a late-inning save that Nyssa decided to revolt against Malcolm's rule later, but the motive of wanting to claim her father's legacy is something that didn't require Sara to be alive again. It's just as good a reason for Nyssa to challenge Malcolm, without all the LoT-driven nonsense around Sara's resurrection.

I did say that Arrow made a choice to do things the way they did them. Having to set up LOT didn't force that way onto them. Have a very great day you and everyone!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

[DoubleDevil]

On the topic of character creation, it follows a very structured process making it a measurable procedure. Whether one likes or dislikes the character is a matter of opinion based on emotion which is in no manner a tangibly measurable thing. Character development is less tangible than character creation but by no means is it purely an emotional acknowledgement, if one cares for the development or not is purely emotional.

Now as to LoT, it does carry blame for Arrow's lackluster season although I won't give it as much weight as President Luther. The writing team as a whole carries the burden of the blame regardless of what storyline they are asked to write, LoT, Olicity or Damien Darkh.

[Arrow_47]

IMHO there really is no debate about this, WM and MG are responsible for the tanking of Arrow and it has nothing to do with setting up Flash or LoT and everything to do with Olicity, poor storytelling, and a petulant and sadistic attitude towards fans who are loyal to DC canon. There have been so many spin-off TV shows where the story-arcs do not impact the original shows. No pass for MG. Others have already clearly and successfully pointed out his failures, so it is more than just a coincidence that whatever he touches tanks. Especially in the DC universe, which is to be expected since he is a Marvel fan. You cannot serve two masters, it really is that simple. CW would do well by replacing the showrunners and finding a creative way to undo the damage that has been done the past two seasons.

[DoubleDevil]

IMHO there really is no debate about this, WM and MG are responsible for the tanking of Arrow and it has nothing to do with setting up Flash or LoT and everything to do with Olicity, poor storytelling, and a petulant and sadistic attitude towards fans who are loyal to DC canon. There have been so many spin-off TV shows where the story-arcs do not impact the original shows. No pass for MG. Others have already clearly and successfully pointed out his failures, so it is more than just a coincidence that whatever he touches tanks. Especially in the DC universe, which is to be expected since he is a Marvel fan. You cannot serve two masters, it really is that simple. CW would do well by replacing the showrunners and finding a creative way to undo the damage that has been done the past two seasons.

I'd disagree that the fault is MG working with both DC and Marvel, he could still bring quality work to both companies unless one or the other (or both) demanded otherwise which I don't think is the case. The benefits for both companies is greater to have a long term mole than a short term sabotage. What baffles me is that he was able to land a job with both companies in the first place if Arrow is any indication of his standard work.

[Arrow_47]

I am not saying MG is intentionally sabotaging his work with DC. He may even like DC to a degree. But you cannot truly be a Mets and Yankees fan, Rangers and Islanders, Jets and Giants, Lakers and Clippers, etc. You can claim to like both teams, but in your heart of hearts it is one or the other not one and the other. Split loyalties will undoubtedly produce substandard results. I am a diehard DC fan, but as a comic fan I can enjoy Marvel as well. I am loyal to XBOX but enjoy, albeit to a lesser degree, my Playstation. Love the Uncharted series, but Tomb Raider on my XBOX is far and away my favorite. That means I will commit more time and energy to all things XBOX and occasionally throw PS a bone.

[Halberdier17]

Also I guess to add to your comment there were many people that have worked for DC and Marvel but never simultaneously. Everyone of the writers or artist that were working for DC or Marvel once they got a job at the other they quit working for the previous company. Marc Guggenheim is working for both companies currently albeit for different divisions.

[President_Luthor]

Just in case anyone is interpreting that I've given the showrunners a pass on Arrow's meh S4 run due to LoT alone, this was not my point at all. It's the showrunners and writers who are ultimately responsible for the S3-4 decline in quality. The need to carve space for LoT exacerbated an already shaky S4 foundation.

I should probably add that having to introduce LoT via Arrow doesn't give Arrow or its showrunners a pass on a lacklustre S4. It's undoubtedly a factor (one of many), and a more substantial one from my perspective esp. on Arrow's first half of S4, but this goes back to my comment that Arrow has its own in-house sins which existed long before LoT or even The Flash.

So yes, MG and crew don't get a pass just because of LoT. But LoT did complicate a series already dealing with writing quality issues. In more capable hands, Arrow the series might have been able to keep its S4 house in order and launch a new series simultaneously without suffering in quality. But we all know this didn't pan out. LoT is not solely to blame for a weaker S4 -- but it's not completely innocent either.

For example, I just found it absurd that Darhk essentially pressed a pause button on his schemes in order to allow the Flarrowverse to ramp up for the LoT crossover. "Just you wait," Darhk seemed to be saying, "I'll show the whole world just how evil I can truly be -- you know, after we get past all the LoT set-ups and crossovers." Mentioning Darhk a gazillion times during the LoT set-up eps. just to make it appear like it's still an Arrow plot is not the same as crafting a half-decent plot where it makes sense that Darhk would fade into the background temporarily. It's stuff like this that irked the heck out of me re: LoT stuff running roughshod during Arrow's S4 first half. In better hands, it shouldn't have been an issue.

In practical terms, Darhk had to do that to give LoT some time in the spotlight. In story credibility terms ... huh?

This is where I'm coming from on it.

And if we want to score villains on the coolness factor, Arrow's Darhk still comes out on top ahead of LoT's Savage. (Zoom was on track to come out ahead of both of them ... but we all know how that turned out *cough* cheesy Caitlin romance *cough*) Savage lost the moment he got stuck in a twisted melodramatic ship. It was game over the moment he and Ray became part of a Kendra love triangle.

As for the DC and Marvel, while I tend to agree with the 'castle cannot have two lords' theory and MG may very well favour Marvel over DC (if in fact he did invest more effort into the AoS spin-off than Arrow), I'm not sure it's a big an issue as it's being made out to be. One factor certainly, but again only one of many. For S4 specifically it might have been, but this goes back to Arrow running into writing issues long before that Mockingbird-related spinoff was on-deck.

[Arrow_47]

I get where you are coming from Mr. President and agree with most of your assessment. I would only add the DC / Marvel dichotomy is more of an observation than a big to do. I don't really see a big thing being made of it. Just another one of the (numerous) reasons why S4 was poorly executed. Obviously as a comic fan you can still do a good job on both, I only point out that there will be an allegiance to one over the other. Judging from the quality of his work, MG strikes me as a Marvel guy.

[DoubleDevil]

I didn't mean to insinuate that LoT is your main culprit for a shoddy season 4, President Luther, only that you seem to give it more weight than I do. I could very well be wrong and we are both giving LoT the same amount of blame, it just sounds (reads) differently by the way you continually push LoT into the spotlight of Arrow's “subpar“ season 4.

Arrow 47, I'm not claiming one can pledge fealty to two different kings, I equally don't believe one can honestly be a registered citizen of 2 countries regardless of how similar they are, I just don't see MG pledging fealty to ANYBODY but himself. Is he delivering higher quality work to one over the other? I honestly wouldn't know because up until Arrow, and more specifically these forums, I had no idea who MG was (and quite honestly still really don't because I don't find him worth my time). I do believe if his personal interest is his primary interest then it doesn't matter who receives his better work unless he sees more personal gain from one over the other, not because he's a fanboy of one over the other but rather one made him a better offer than the other. That has nothing to do with being a fanboy.

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[DoubleDevil]

IF MG knowingly delivers better material to Marvel than DC I see it as being due to at least one of three reasons;

1 Marvel made him a better offer than DC, whether more money or some other form of perks/incentive

2 MG believes he has better chances at getting whatever it is that he wants from Marvel than DC even if they haven't already offered it to him

3 Marvel was better at seeing where MG's strong points lay and gave him a job accordingly instead of just picking him up and using him to fill a gap

Of course the final point could be applied even if MG wasn't knowingly delivering better material and instead it just happened to be better material. Could MG be a Marvel fanboy knowingly attempting to sabotage DC? Yes. But I find that theory highly unlikely. Comicbook writers I see as mercenaries, they have no allegiance but to themselves, they'll work for anybody and on any title as long as they're allowed to write and don't have a big enough name to make demands.

Most likely scenario for me (in regard to MG delivering better material to Marvel) is either option 3 or just absolute coincidence, either way MG himself has no real influence on what's happening.

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[JDBentz]

I personally doubt MG is sabotaging Arrow for Marvel's sake. Frankly, if I look at the two companies and their projects (film and TV) objectively, then Marvel wouldn't even have to have someone do that. DC/Warner Bros. are doing plenty to sabotage themselves. No, Guggenheim's antics with Arrow are more to derive pleasure that 'so many' embrace 'his vision' for the Green Arrow property.

[Haggard01]

I personally doubt MG is sabotaging Arrow for Marvel's sake. Frankly, if I look at the two companies and their projects (film and TV) objectively, then Marvel wouldn't even have to have someone do that. DC/Warner Bros. are doing plenty to sabotage themselves. No, Guggenheim's antics with Arrow are more to derive pleasure that 'so many' embrace 'his vision' for the Green Arrow property.

I have to agree with this. There has been proof at all of Marc doing this for Marvel. Because like you said DC is doing plenty of sabotaging on their own. Also Marc is helping that process but for his own selfish reasons that have nothing to do with marvel.

Ironically those same fans Marc panders to have recently thrown him to the wolves because of Guggie releasing concept art of a golden statue for Laurel as Black Canary in season 5. Oh man it's so funny.

Which here are just a few examples from Twitter of quotes from the Olicty crowd

"If every conversation on s5 is about how "great" she was, I'm out. It was already bad enough to see it on the season finale."

"this is not the right way to deal with them they trash talk about this anyway"

"So her fans send you death treats and you give them that in return ?"

"When are we going to get some news about #Olicity & Diggle? Tell me we donīt have to wait until SDCC"

"Why doesn't Overwatch get a statue ?"

Yea...

[TyrantLord]

I have to agree with this. There has been proof at all of Marc doing this for Marvel. Because like you said DC is doing plenty of sabotaging on their own. Also Marc is helping that process but for his own selfish reasons that have nothing to do with marvel.

Ironically those same fans Marc panders to have recently thrown him to the wolves because of Guggie releasing concept art of a golden statue for Laurel as Black Canary in season 5. Oh man it's so funny.

Which here are just a few examples from Twitter of quotes from the Olicty crowd

"If every conversation on s5 is about how "great" she was, I'm out. It was already bad enough to see it on the season finale."

"this is not the right way to deal with them they trash talk about this anyway"

"So her fans send you death treats and you give them that in return ?"

"When are we going to get some news about #Olicity & Diggle? Tell me we donīt have to wait until SDCC"

"Why doesn't Overwatch get a statue ?"

Yea...

and that, ladies and germs, is WHY I only limit my self to chat on forums like this and avoid garbage sights like those with all costs. honestly this whole "faceless internet personas" thing this modern generation gets away with baffles and worries me as to how dumbed down and idiotic the human race has become. Maybe another do over for us ain't such a bad thing after all (as long as they're no zombies involved, please. A pure, clean wipe out and start over is just fine with me).

[Sure-Oz]

I have to agree with this. There has been proof at all of Marc doing this for Marvel. Because like you said DC is doing plenty of sabotaging on their own. Also Marc is helping that process but for his own selfish reasons that have nothing to do with marvel.

Ironically those same fans Marc panders to have recently thrown him to the wolves because of Guggie releasing concept art of a golden statue for Laurel as Black Canary in season 5. Oh man it's so funny.

Which here are just a few examples from Twitter of quotes from the Olicty crowd

"If every conversation on s5 is about how "great" she was, I'm out. It was already bad enough to see it on the season finale."

"this is not the right way to deal with them they trash talk about this anyway"

"So her fans send you death treats and you give them that in return ?"

"When are we going to get some news about #Olicity & Diggle? Tell me we donīt have to wait until SDCC"

"Why doesn't Overwatch get a statue ?"

Yea...

Most Olicity fans are idiots imo...crazy ones. I actually liked Felicity till they ruined her by being the supreme leader and totally misunderstanding except when it comes to get own stuff.

[costas22]

Not for nothing, but Overwatch does deserve a statue. She saved the world from nuclear annihilation more than once. Yeah it's absurd, but that's the BS narrative Arrow operated on at the end of season 4. She should have gotten a statue before Black Canary, Green Arrow, The Flash or even Jesus himself.

As for the Canary statue, I hate it. Not the concept art, but this whole notion that season 5 will explore "the idea of Black Canary and what it means" (Amell's words, not mine). They didn't do the character justice when she was alive and doing this now is just a desperate attempt to make it up to her fans. Besides, I don't want the show operating on "what Laurel would have said" or "what Laurel would have wanted" or "what Laurel would have done" themes. It's flat out annoying and the season finale was proof of that. If they want to make up for their blunder, they should bring her back to life. And of course, they are too intimidated to do that...