View Poll Results: What did you think?

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  • 10 - Lost in the Awesome

    2 16.67%
  • 9

    0 0%
  • 8

    2 16.67%
  • 7

    2 16.67%
  • 6

    1 8.33%
  • 5

    0 0%
  • 4

    0 0%
  • 3

    0 0%
  • 2

    1 8.33%
  • 1 - Lost in This Mess

    4 33.33%
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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    Only for that episode. The numbers were back to normal by the next one. But in season three they held onto the viewers 'til late mid season. That thought didn't happen this year so hence the comparison to season two's numbers.


    This is why trying to explain the ratings is fruitless since what you blame on leaks about BC dying, I can point to as around the same time when Oliver and Felicity broke up. After all, the drop in viewers between 4-15 and 4-16 was the single biggest drop in viewership for the season.



    Let's just say I sincerely doubt there are very many hard core TMNT fans with Nielsen boxes. I sincerely doubt there are that many hard core TMNT fans period, let alone so many as to provide a ratings bump on some TV show they don't normally watch just to see a trailer that the second it airs would start popping up on line.

    That explanation also completely ignores the fact that the third largest viewing market (Chicago) was preempted for 4-22.


    FTY, we don't know who the returning BC is supposed to be. It wasn't the actress that played baby Canary, just the stunt woman and the outfit was covered up.
    Didn't know that first bit. Thanks.

    Well, on the 'after Oliver broke up with Felicity ratings/viewers dropped' bit, an argument could be made that they promoted that episode with the whole Felicity-Cupid thing. I know I nearly didn't watch it (and definitely didn't watch it live!) because of that.

    You're probably right on the TMNT thing. Which is why this week will be the decider, really, on if the focus on Olicity and killing Laurel was the best option for them.

    Eh, don't know what FTY means, but I'm assuming you were trying to type something like FTR (for the record)? Anyways, didn't realize it wasn't baby Canary. If that's the case, then there is a possibility that it was Caity Lotz since she was doing her West Coast drive and then went to SLC airport and tweeted about it before posting something in the late night about being back on set in Vancouver "but what set?"

  2. #32
    Forum Regular Arrow_47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    It's funny, you and I aren't that far apart in this opinion but the place where the show yanked away the unconditional love and true romance for me was when Oliver chose to lie to Felicity instead of lie to the woman who'd kept his son from him all his life. I honestly don't think the Oliver they'd written would have done that. It was out of character at this point but the show insisted on making it his character and it wasn't something Felicity could live with because it spoke to the foundation of their whole future together. Love alone couldn't fix this. Love was never the problem.
    Except he didn't lie to Felicity, he just neglected to tell her that he had a son with Samantha (which by the way he just found out himself and was trying to process the whole thing while simultaneously dealing with Vandal Savage and the end of the world). Just as Felicity neglected to tell her mother Oliver is the Green Arrow and she has been working with him for the past three years. Which brings us back to my original claim, she is a hypocrite. As for Oliver, he is a spoiled billionaire playboy who went through hell on earth. So the Oliver they'd written would have done exactly that and more. As a 30-year veteran who was part of the Afghan war I know what dealing with PTSD is like and how it can affect the decision making process. I've even posted some things here that if given the chance would undo it. I see nothing that Oliver did that a loving woman couldn't fix. Maybe I'm just spoiled because I happen to be married to the world's most wonderful wife, but that's how I see it.

  3. #33
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    This is why trying to explain the ratings is fruitless since what you blame on leaks about BC dying, I can point to as around the same time when Oliver and Felicity broke up. After all, the drop in viewers between 4-15 and 4-16 was the single biggest drop in viewership for the season.
    I know you probably don't believe in the idea that fluctuations in ratings can be explained with reference to the ups and downs of a fictional couple, but there is actually such an idea floating around on the Internet.

    Arrow ratings:
    4.09: 1.0 (demo) 2.82 (Olicity engaged)
    4.10: 1.0 (demo) 2.82
    4.11: 1.0 (demo) 2.77
    4.12: 0.9 (demo) 2.47M
    4.13: 0.9 (demo) 2.45M
    4.14: 0.9 (demo) 2.44M
    4.15: 1.0 (demo) 2.69M (break up Olicity)
    4.16: 0.7 (demo) 2.08M (pos break up) - drop demo (0.3) and viewers (610k)
    4.17: 0.9 (demo) 2.34M
    4.18: 0.8 (demo) 2.24M (LL death)
    4.19: 0.9 (demo) 2.27M (pos death) - up demo
    4.20: 0.7 (demo) 2.07M
    4x21: 0.8 (demo) 2.16M
    4x22: 0.7 (demo) 1.94M


    Here are my thoughts this chart:

    First of all, this would mean that the ONLY thing Guggenheim and his writers will have to do in order to bring in the viewers in season five is to get Oliver and Felicity together again. If things could get fixed that easily, I think Guggenheim would be ecstatic! Anyway, my main problem with this mode of explaining fluctuations in the ratings is that it presupposes that the casual viewer cares that much about the Olicity "will they, won't they" (or the state of their relationship in general) that they will tune out just because they're not together at some stage of the season arc.

    For these statistics to make any kind of sense, we have to presume that hundreds of thousands of viewers would decide to skip an episode just because Olicity broke up in the previous one. That seems highly implausible to me, because I don't think the great majority of viewers are as invested in the Olicity romance as a few thousand hardcore online shippers, to the point that this relationship is their sole focus (and that they hence would stop watching if they aren't together). I'd say that the great majority of viewers watch for the overall story, or even for the (gasp!) superhero action, i.e. Oliver and the rest fighting the bad guys. Besides, even the hardcore Olicity shippers watch every episode (despite the fact that Olicity isn't together), so why shouldn't the general viewer do the same thing?

    I also find it interesting that (according to this chart) Felicity's worth or "pull" as a character seems to be tied to her romantic relationship with Oliver...because if it weren't, people would be interested in watching her storylines regardless of whether she is in a relationship with Oliver or not. In a way, this does make sense: Felicity by herself doesn't seem to draw in the viewers, since the recent Felicity-heavy episodes have not done especially well in the ratings. On the other hand, if you somehow believe that fluctuations in the ratings depend on the state of the Olicity romance, you have to equate the general viewer with the Olicity shippers. The hitch here is that Olicity fans are also major Felicity fans, so they will surely watch ANY episode where she is featured, which means that they will watch every episode religiously!

    The main reason why I found the attempts to pinpoint the state or the presence/absence of ONE particular character or ship as the cause of a ratings' drop misleading is that "Arrow" has always had fluctuations in the ratings, long before Oliver and Felicity were an item. I'm sure that if anyone sat down and tried to explain or justify these fluctuations, they could come up with all kinds of explanations (for example, that one particular character is so "non-fan popular" that an ep that focuses on him/her will make the ratings tank).

    The problem is that statistics in themselves don't prove anything, since the variables can be interpreted in so many different ways. IF the ratings' decline continue into the fifth season, I think it's mainly because the quality of the writing, plotting, production values etc has declined, and not because of the state of a romantic relationship or because a main character has been killed off. The only impact that Laurel's death may have had on viewer patterns is that those were already disappointed with the show, but kept on watching for her sake, decided to stop watching altogether.
    Last edited by evaba; 05-24-2016 at 09:45 AM.

  4. #34
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    That explanation also completely ignores the fact that the third largest viewing market (Chicago) was preempted for 4-22.
    The thing is, there have been preemptions in Chicago several times before, without seriously damaging the ratings. One example is last year's season finale:

    http://tvseriesfinale.com/tv-show/ar...ratings-34284/

    Here's a quote from the ratings' discussion on Sp-oilerTV which shows that the finale was preempted in the important Chicago market:

    If the CW was pre empted in Chicago are those numbers going to go down? Especially for Arrow???
    I think Guggenheim and company will be overjoyed if 2.8 million people tune in tomorrow (or if they get a 1.0 demo), preemptions or no preemptions!
    Last edited by evaba; 05-24-2016 at 03:53 PM.

  5. #35
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Eh, don't know what FTY means, but I'm assuming you were trying to type something like FTR (for the record)?
    Oops, typo. Meant FYI.

    Except he didn't lie to Felicity, he just neglected to tell her that he had a son with Samantha (which by the way he just found out himself and was trying to process the whole thing while simultaneously dealing with Vandal Savage and the end of the world).
    He did. They returned home and Felicity brought up the thing he had been dealing with in CC and asked what was going on and he said it was over and didn't matter. Lie.

    As a 30-year veteran who was part of the Afghan war I know what dealing with PTSD is like and how it can affect the decision making process. I've even posted some things here that if given the chance would undo it. I see nothing that Oliver did that a loving woman couldn't fix. Maybe I'm just spoiled because I happen to be married to the world's most wonderful wife, but that's how I see it.
    I would be genuinely interested in your wife's view point if you asked her how she'd have reacted if she found out you asked her to marry you and were weeks away from the wedding only for her to find out you had been hiding a child, secretly sneaking to another town to see him, conspiring with the kids mother and that while you refused to tell her, your sister, friend and mortal enemy all knew. Toss in the part that after it all comes out in the open you again go behind her back and send the kid away without even talking to her about it. I doubt she'd see it quite as cut and dried. Not saying every woman would walk away, but I'd say most would understand any that decided they had to.

  6. #36
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    I also find it interesting that (according to this chart) Felicity's worth or "pull" as a character seems to be tied to her romantic relationship with Oliver...because if it weren't, people would be interested in watching her storylines regardless of whether she is in a relationship with Oliver or not.
    Well I for one think the long hiatus had a huge impact on the ratings but beyond that, Broken Hearts was a emotionally painful episode. That was pretty clear from the promos and just the circumstances. It's not so different than how a lot of viewers peaced out for Sara in season 3 because that episode was clearly going to be so sad and heavy. I was told by many of her fans that they were not going to watch for that very reason. (Both Sara and Broken Hearts) But the biggest part of that drop is just time off the air and spring.
    In a way, this does make sense: Felicity by herself doesn't seem to draw in the viewers, since the recent Felicity-heavy episodes have not done especially well in the ratings. On the other hand, if you somehow believe that fluctuations in the ratings depend on the state of the Olicity romance, you have to equate the general viewer with the Olicity shippers. The hitch here is that Olicity fans are also major Felicity fans, so they will surely watch ANY episode where she is featured, which means that they will watch every episode religiously!
    I am the one saying not to try and assign definitive meaning to the ratings but there has been a pattern of a positive uptick for the following episode after something positive has happened between Oliver and Felicity and feel free to make of that as you will. The episodes themselves aren't terribly indicative of anything because we usually don't know what will happen. Like this last week, the promos did not focus on Felicity so why would anyone even know ahead of time she'd have half the episode?

  7. #37
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evaba View Post
    The thing is, there have been preemptions in Chicago several times before, without seriously damaging the ratings. One example is last year's season finale:

    http://tvseriesfinale.com/tv-show/ar...ratings-34284/

    Here's a quote from the ratings' discussion on Sp-oilerTV which shows that the finale was preempted in the important Chicago market:



    I think Guggenheim and company will be overjoyed if 2.8 million people tune in tomorrow (or if they get a 1.0 demo), preemptions or no preemptions!
    And everyone was surprised and overjoyed. They got really good ratings even with the preemption. It also was an final. It's not a good example of what is normal. I also never said the whole drop could be blamed on preemption. I pointed out that while it was preempted in Chicago for the basketball playoffs, likely people in non preempted areas also watched the basketball game live vs the show. In cases like this the numbers usually balance out in delayed DVR numbers. Which is why trying to say what the ratings mean is pointless since most of us will never have all the facts that the studio does.

  8. #38
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    It's not so different than how a lot of viewers peaced out for Sara in season 3 because that episode was clearly going to be so sad and heavy. I was told by many of her fans that they were not going to watch for that very reason. (Both Sara and Broken Hearts) But the biggest part of that drop is just time off the air and spring.
    I am the one saying not to try and assign definitive meaning to the ratings but there has been a pattern of a positive uptick for the following episode after something positive has happened between Oliver and Felicity and feel free to make of that as you will. The episodes themselves aren't terribly indicative of anything because we usually don't know what will happen. Like this last week, the promos did not focus on Felicity so why would anyone even know ahead of time she'd have half the episode?
    You might have a point about "Sara", but I personally thought that "Broken Hearts" was the absolute WORST "Arrow" episode ever (I didn't even watch the Bee lady ep, but that ep might be a contender!). To me it wasn't sad, but incredibly cheesy and pointless, so if anything, I would have skipped the next episode just because I felt that the show had reached such a low point that it's not worth following anymore! But to each his own....In general I feel that ALL the "Arrow" Cupid episodes have been cringe-worthy and pointless filler, so it may have to do with my aversion to Cupid (sorry Amarice!).

    I guess we'll have to see how well "Arrow" does in the season finale in order to assess if it's really in a permanent downward slope, or if the relatively low ratings for episodes 4x18-4x22 were just a temporary slump.
    Last edited by evaba; 05-25-2016 at 05:13 AM.

  9. #39
    Forum Regular Arrow_47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    I would be genuinely interested in your wife's view point if you asked her how she'd have reacted if she found out you asked her to marry you and were weeks away from the wedding only for her to find out you had been hiding a child, secretly sneaking to another town to see him, conspiring with the kids mother and that while you refused to tell her, your sister, friend and mortal enemy all knew. Toss in the part that after it all comes out in the open you again go behind her back and send the kid away without even talking to her about it. I doubt she'd see it quite as cut and dried. Not saying every woman would walk away, but I'd say most would understand any that decided they had to.
    I asked her and she said I was right. Seriously though, nobody knows everything about the person they marry. Some are married for more than 20 years and still learn new things about what their spouse did in their past. Remember, they were engaged - not married. Regarding Oliver's choices, he struggled with what to do. His hand was forced by Malcolm and Darhk. Given time, he very well could have come clean about William before marrying Felicity. In fact, based on his character as portrayed on the show, he would have done just that. Had William's life not been in danger, there would have been no need to send him away. My wife did add that she would have allowed me to explain the whole story instead of giving me a five minute speech and then walking out on me and deciding we weren't going to work. She would have understood everything that I was going through in my life (just as she does now), because that's what love is.

    Enjoy the day!

  10. #40
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrow_47 View Post
    I asked her and she said I was right. Seriously though, nobody knows everything about the person they marry. Some are married for more than 20 years and still learn new things about what their spouse did in their past. Remember, they were engaged - not married. Regarding Oliver's choices, he struggled with what to do. His hand was forced by Malcolm and Darhk. Given time, he very well could have come clean about William before marrying Felicity. In fact, based on his character as portrayed on the show, he would have done just that. Had William's life not been in danger, there would have been no need to send him away. My wife did add that she would have allowed me to explain the whole story instead of giving me a five minute speech and then walking out on me and deciding we weren't going to work. She would have understood everything that I was going through in my life (just as she does now), because that's what love is.

    Enjoy the day!
    Interestingly enough, I asked my mom how she would have reacted if she had found out my dad had a kid before they met that he didn't tell her about and my mom looked at me and simply said, "Why should it matter? It wasn't from when we were together." She even told me that everyone thought, even her, that my cousin, my uncle's son, was my dad's son because they all thought they looked so much alike and she never took issue with it even when she thought it. My cousin is about over 5 years older than me and his mom and my uncle weren't really together when he was born. Have a very great day you and everyone!

    God bless you! God bless everyone!

  11. #41
    Forum Whiz Amarice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evaba View Post
    In general I feel that ALL the "Arrow" Cupid episodes have been cringe-worthy and pointless filler, so it may have to do with my aversion to Cupid (sorry Amarice!).
    Lol, no problem. Of course according to the tumblr&twitter fanbase standards/logic I should immedietely start to convince you that Carrie is not only excellently written, but also the most interesting and complex woman character I've ever seen. And of course that there is some special connection between her and Oliver because he had saved her! And that the actors have an amazing chemistry and Cupid/the Arrow would be really organic pairing (sidenote: isn't it a bit sad that Oliver slept basically with every single woman during the course of the show but not with the one who definietely wanted it the most? ;p).

    I like more the general concept of the character/the actress than the episodes themselves. I've already written somewhere that Cupid basically represents women who hook up on serial killers - it's only brought to an extreme. 3x7 is watchable only when you skip Olicity drama (that leavs around 20 minutes of the plot with Cupid - still my favorite scene is the one with the psychiatrist). When it comes to the episode itself I liked for example that this hacker guy used an alghoritm to find out where the Arrow's hideout is. Also, Felicity needed some time to find information about Carrie. And yes, the consultation with psychiatrist was a cool scene (why Doctor Pressnall is not a series regular? All characters could use some therapy right now).

    3x17 is is awful because of that love triangle drama. I didn't also like that they killed Deadshot for the sake of films. Carrie didn't exactly play any significant part in that episode. And 4x16 - well, it's also all about Olicity drama and kinda confirmed me in my decision of abandoning the show. Felicity's talking with Cupid didn't make me cringe. What made me cringe were Oliver's vows, because in that moment I understood finally for good that he has nothing in common with the character they introduced in season 1 and "Arrow" is beyond saving. Kudos to people, who still watch and enjoy they show, glad you manage to do this, but I'm out of here as I've a certain level of tolerance (just like Carrie, lol, I forgive everything up to a certain point, then I throw under a train ). Btw. I think it would make so much more sense if Oliver would negociate with Cupid. And once I found out that kevlar vest actually don't stop arrows it seems that Ollie somehow cheated death four times, not three.

    Btw. I checked Amy Gumenick's portfolio on her page and it turned out that half of her roles are crazy murderers/jealous lovers/wives so I guess that's why she had no problem with playing Cupid. She has a lot of experience.

  12. #42
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    I think the character of Carrie has enormous potential but the Arrow writers don't do her justice.

  13. #43
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrow_47 View Post
    I asked her and she said I was right. Seriously though, nobody knows everything about the person they marry. Some are married for more than 20 years and still learn new things about what their spouse did in their past. Remember, they were engaged - not married. Regarding Oliver's choices, he struggled with what to do. His hand was forced by Malcolm and Darhk. Given time, he very well could have come clean about William before marrying Felicity. In fact, based on his character as portrayed on the show, he would have done just that. Had William's life not been in danger, there would have been no need to send him away. My wife did add that she would have allowed me to explain the whole story instead of giving me a five minute speech and then walking out on me and deciding we weren't going to work. She would have understood everything that I was going through in my life (just as she does now), because that's what love is.

    Enjoy the day!
    Well then it sounds like you found your perfect match.
    Last edited by BkWurm1; 05-25-2016 at 11:54 AM.

  14. #44
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagenspear View Post
    Interestingly enough, I asked my mom how she would have reacted if she had found out my dad had a kid before they met that he didn't tell her about and my mom looked at me and simply said, "Why should it matter? It wasn't from when we were together." She even told me that everyone thought, even her, that my cousin, my uncle's son, was my dad's son because they all thought they looked so much alike and she never took issue with it even when she thought it. My cousin is about over 5 years older than me and his mom and my uncle weren't really together when he was born. Have a very great day you and everyone!

    God bless you! God bless everyone!
    Felicity didn't care that he had a kid. She spelled that out loud and clear. She cared that he hid it from her and shut her out of his life and was CONTINUING to shut her out of his life.

  15. #45
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    An update on the ratings. The season finale got a 0.8/2.19 final rating, which is consistent with the low ratings for the latest episodes:

    http://tvseriesfinale.com/tv-show/ar...ratings-38484/

    The ratings for the season three finale was 1.0/2.831, which means that "Arrow" lost about 600.000 domestic ('live') viewers, and 0.2 in the demo. Seeing that the reception (by fans and reviewers) for "Schism" has been overwhelmingly negative, I guess the drop in ratings reflects the overall quality of this episode. As for the season as a while, there was a drop of 7.93% in the demo, and a drop of almost 10% in viewers, in relation to the last season: 276.000 against 248.000 viewers since last year's season finale.

    http://tvseriesfinale.com/tv-show/ar...ratings-34284/

    Of course, one could claim that this is not a great loss, especially for a show in its fourth season. On the other hand, it certainly contradicts the popular belief among some fans that "Felicity saved Arrow" or "Olicity saved Arrow"....Of course, many oliciters are complaining on Guggenheim's timeline that they didn't get ENOUGH Felicity and Olicity, but I think that most non-shipper fans feel that there has been an over-saturation of Flawless Felicity Saves The World and relationship drama in season four, even though it didn't provide enough "moments" and heart-to-hearts for the O/F shippers. I guess they had expected a different ending to the season's "marriage plot", and now they feel deprived. I can agree that the Oliver/Felicity relationship has been overall really poorly handled, but I don't believe that more emphasis on the Olicity relationship would have saved the season, since there needs to be good, consistent writing as well for a romance to become interesting also to non-shipper fans. Hence I cannot see how more Olicity per se could have made season four better (e.g. if they had stayed together rather than breaking up).

    Anyway, the season finale was a huge disappointment to many fans and reviewers, which is quite apparent in the articles below. And the disappointment didn't concern O/F and their relationship writing as much as everything ELSE in that episode:

    http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/05/...-schism-review

    http://www.latimes.com/entertainment...nap-story.html

    http://www.tv.com/shows/arrow/commun...-146386944281/

    http://www.avclub.com/tvclub/another...rt-ends-237351

    http://www.denofgeek.com/us/tv/arrow...-review-schism

    http://screencrush.com/arrow-season-...review-schism/

    I personally think that Guggenheim and his writers should take a long and hard look at what went wrong in season four (and partly in season three), and try to fix what can be fixed, rather than hiding their heads in the sand, and pretending the criticism is just due to Laurel's demise or nitpicking. There are LOADS of fans who had no special sympathies for Laurel (or hopes that she would become GA's partner) who are really disappointed, to the point of abandoning the show altogether. If Guggenheim et al want to attract a wider audience than one specific fanbase, whose preferences and wishes they try to satisfy in their writing (to the point of including their fanbase tropes, e.g. #OTA into the narrative), they have figure out a way to tell their stories without relying on cheap cliff-hangers and "game-changers".
    Last edited by evaba; 05-27-2016 at 09:20 AM.

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