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  • 10 - Awesome

    1 4.55%
  • 9

    2 9.09%
  • 8

    2 9.09%
  • 7

    2 9.09%
  • 6

    2 9.09%
  • 5

    2 9.09%
  • 4

    0 0%
  • 3

    0 0%
  • 2

    0 0%
  • 1 - Burn this episode and that Olicity fern too while you're at it

    11 50.00%
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  1. #46
    Posting Pro DoubleDevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    But Felicity ISN'T running the company into the ground. Under her leadership, she turned its financial state around. And when she taps into the companies resources, she's working to save the city and in this particular case, the world. Ray was only interested in using resources to build his super suit so he could play hero. Oliver had good intentions initially (to save the jobs of his family's employees) but he had little interest or ability in overseeing the company and yeah, because of that, he DID let it get run into the ground. Felicity of the three is actually the only one looking out for the business and the city and she's doing very well so far.

    This is the part where I'm told how unrealistic it is. Doesn't work that way. If her feet are held to the fire for perceived sins, then she gets equal credit for stated victories or the very selective standards stand out.
    I won't go into how realistic Felicity holding the CEO position is. You're defending her conduct by comparing her actions to Oliver and Ray and I pointed out that the actions, while similar, are not comparible. I can give Oliver and Ray a pass on their behavior because even though all three were CEO the situations were NOT the same. Now you wish to defend her actions by pointing out she's saving the company while Oliver and Ray didn't. It STILL doesn't make what Felicity did right. Yet you still defend her actions. I can defend Oliver and Ray even if I disagree with what they did because in their doing so they were making personel sacrifices, there's nothing of the sort with Felicity to give her a pass on being called out on it but doing so simply is finding something to hate about her. You're wrong and your biased support for her is why she'll always get a pass for things she should be called out on.

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  2. #47
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDevil View Post
    I won't go into how realistic Felicity holding the CEO position is. You're defending her conduct by comparing her actions to Oliver and Ray and I pointed out that the actions, while similar, are not comparible. I can give Oliver and Ray a pass on their behavior because even though all three were CEO the situations were NOT the same. Now you wish to defend her actions by pointing out she's saving the company while Oliver and Ray didn't. It STILL doesn't make what Felicity did right. Yet you still defend her actions. I can defend Oliver and Ray even if I disagree with what they did because in their doing so they were making personel sacrifices, there's nothing of the sort with Felicity to give her a pass on being called out on it but doing so simply is finding something to hate about her. You're wrong and your biased support for her is why she'll always get a pass for things she should be called out on.

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    Well I don't find Ray or Oliver using the company plane for personal reasons any different. I also didnt hold it against either Ray or Oliver when they did it. So I'm not going to hold it against Felicity either.

    I have no idea what you mean when you say Ray and Oliver were making personal sacrifices when doing the CEO uses the jet for personal use thing. You want to expand on that?

  3. #48
    Posting Pro DoubleDevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    Well I don't find Ray or Oliver using the company plane for personal reasons any different. I also didnt hold it against either Ray or Oliver when they did it. So I'm not going to hold it against Felicity either.

    I have no idea what you mean when you say Ray and Oliver were making personal sacrifices when doing the CEO uses the jet for personal use thing. You want to expand on that?
    Your defense of her actions is based on a false sense of justification (the same as the writers) and a false sense of equality. Just because one person does something doesn't mean somebody else is allowed or justified to do the same thing.

    There are personal consequences to Oliver and Ray when they abuse company resources, it's their personal finances at stake, in Oliver's case there was also the family's name. Felicity was given the position and the company therefore my previous comparison to gambling in Vegas. There's nothing but her name/reputation at stake which is the case with each and every decision any of us make, nothing special or extraordinary. We bash big business CEO's all the time for thinking they can use company resources for personal use so who looses the most if the abuse is discovered? Oliver's family name, and thereby also the company name, becomes besmerched. Ray and Oliver both loose money out of their personal bank accounts (with Oliver it's more his father's money). Ray didn't buy the company with it's own money and Robert didn't build the company from nothing with company money. The only thing Felicity risks is her personal name, the same as Ray, Oliver, you or me.

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    Last edited by DoubleDevil; 05-10-2016 at 12:44 AM.

  4. #49
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    I'm essentially in suspension of disbelief mode with anything concerning realism and Felicity's role in running Palmer Tech. I refuse to believe that Ollie is wholly dependent on either Felicity and/or Palmer Tech to fund and support his vigilante lifestyle. The Panama Papers aka the global offshore tax haven scandal is one real-world explanation that I would readily get behind as possible revenue streams for Ollie/GA. Robert Queen wasn't always on the up-and-up with his business dealings, so it's perfectly reasonable to think that he'd also try to dodge the IRS by squirreling monies away in shell companies, Swiss accounts and offshore tax shelters. It's been my headcanon since he signed away his company on a piece of scrap paper, and I'll be sticking with it.

    As for the actual episode: this was a Diggle-centric ep. -- the Ollie and Felicity Fortuna 'n magic subplot was the 'B' plot of the ep. -- and it just increasingly shows that Lyla as a character (and Audrey Marie Anderson as an actor) continues to prove to be not just one of, if not the best, female characters on Arrow but simply one of the better ones, male or female, they've ever had. And she's in a role that could just as easily have been a minor and forgettable one.

    AMA made it her own and then some. It's also fortuitous that she's had some decent subplots and was there to fill a timely gap created when TPTB had to ice Waller. But luck is a small factor here.

    It's almost embarrassing to me just how good she is in comparison to just about every other main or supporting female character on the series, past or present. We're talking Moira-level awesomeness here. Not an easy feat on a series and network where female characters don't tend to fare well ... especially when the albatross of "the lead's significant other" is assigned to them. Laurel paid the price for wearing it then, Felicity continues to pay the price for wearing it now.

    That Lyla has defied this curse and excels in her role is impressive to say the least. She is quite literally leaving Felicity and Thea in the dust as S4 wraps up. Diggle would also be wise to stick to the maxim 'Happy wife, happy life' going forward. He's lost her once, he would truly be an idiot to lose her again. She's a keeper -- for Diggle and for the series.

  5. #50
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDevil View Post
    There are personal consequences to Oliver and Ray when they abuse company resources, it's their personal finances at stake, in Oliver's case there was also the family's name. Felicity was given the position and the company therefore my previous comparison to gambling in Vegas. There's nothing but her name/reputation at stake which is the case with each and every decision any of us make, nothing special or extraordinary. We bash big business CEO's all the time for thinking they can use company resources for personal use so who looses the most if the abuse is discovered? Oliver's family name, and thereby also the company name, becomes besmerched. Ray and Oliver both loose money out of their personal bank accounts (with Oliver it's more his father's money). Ray didn't buy the company with it's own money and Robert didn't build the company from nothing with company money. The only thing Felicity risks is her personal name, the same as Ray, Oliver, you or me.

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    Her name and reputation is a big deal to her, probably a lot bigger deal to her than the Queen name which was pretty accustom to being dragged through the mud (for good reasons) and I have a feeling that Ray was too much in his bubble to ever notice what the press thought of him.

    Felicity may have had the company handed to her but that probably means she's more concerned about proving herself worthy and Ray picked her in part because he knew she would do what was best with it and a nice slice of that had been the vigilante work they've done and if they lost all their money, then Team Arrow needs a new sponsor. We can assume even while she quit the team that she was still footing their bill.

    I don't accept the premise that she treats Palmer Tech like found money that has to be used foolishly. There really isn't any basis in the notion that she's fine with driving it into the ground just because she wasn't born into the company or didn't found it herself. However she got it, it's hers now and she's shown that she feels responsible for keeping her employees employed.

    Arrow doesn't come even close to realistic portrayal of ...well, of almost anything but work life be it the law or business or police or the government have all been just absurd time and time again. That said, I'm not sure that in real life the CEO borrowing the company's private jet is that unrealistic. Pretty sure they'd be charged fuel at least and maybe wages for the staff but maybe not even that if they are already paid full time.

  6. #51
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    As for the actual episode: this was a Diggle-centric ep. -- the Ollie and Felicity Fortuna 'n magic subplot was the 'B' plot of the ep. -- and it just increasingly shows that Lyla as a character (and Audrey Marie Anderson as an actor) continues to prove to be not just one of, if not the best, female characters on Arrow but simply one of the better ones, male or female, they've ever had. And she's in a role that could just as easily have been a minor and forgettable one.

    AMA made it her own and then some. It's also fortuitous that she's had some decent subplots and was there to fill a timely gap created when TPTB had to ice Waller. But luck is a small factor here.

    It's almost embarrassing to me just how good she is in comparison to just about every other main or supporting female character on the series, past or present. We're talking Moira-level awesomeness here. Not an easy feat on a series and network where female characters don't tend to fare well ... especially when the albatross of "the lead's significant other" is assigned to them. Laurel paid the price for wearing it then, Felicity continues to pay the price for wearing it now.

    That Lyla has defied this curse and excels in her role is impressive to say the least. She is quite literally leaving Felicity and Thea in the dust as S4 wraps up. Diggle would also be wise to stick to the maxim 'Happy wife, happy life' going forward. He's lost her once, he would truly be an idiot to lose her again. She's a keeper -- for Diggle and for the series.
    Do we know of any external reasons why they wouldn't make her a regular? She seems to me to make more sense as a regular than Curtis. I like him but Lyla is already so embedded into the heart of the show. She's the female Diggle, the woman of experience that comes with hard-won wisdom but she also is different than Diggle in that she's bought into the notion that sometimes that the extreme answer is the only answer in a way that compliments Oliver. She's the ARGUS connection, she's the one keeping half the bad guys on ice.

    I've been waiting for a girls save the boys episode as well.

    She's already hosted team dinners and I'm guessing more out of mask bonding might be appreciated by all. Felicity and Thea both could use a friend and Thea could really use a solid mentor. I mean, I love Oliver but he's in no position to offer life advice. Felicity is just too close to Thea's age and they are so different in their outlook on life for her to be any kind of guidance (I'm just grateful they've been allowed to finally have a conversation). Next season I could see Thea really floundering without Laurel to lean on (Even if Alex survives, do any of us care?)

    The fandom regularly does campaigns. Wish they'd band together and beg for Lyla as a regular. Never not loved her on screen.

  7. #52
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    I'm just going to reply to a few of your points. As for the issue of the characters' feelings for each other as opposed to how I feel about their relationship, I understand your argument. We're supposed to believe that Felicity is the woman most worthy of Oliver Queen's love and his ideal partner and that's a fictional fact, regardless of what I happen to think of her. And even if I sometimes feel that Oliver's behavior towards Felicity is a sign of some odd co-dependency, that's not how the writers want us to perceive it: we’re supposed to believe that Felicity is the love of his life, his "light", his moral conscience AND the woman who will make him happy, and a better man. In a way, that's what I have been saying all along, but maybe in a different manner than you did.

    It seemed clear that you were equating the casual viewer with those not engaged in social media and that it was your belief that MG and company thinks they like things they don't. But for that misunderstanding, I apologize. I still do not accept that by naming a few sites that have ALWAYS been anti-Olicity and hated anything of that nature that I should be swayed that this is a majority opinion. Again, you don't know this and I'm tired of it being presented as fact. But honestly, go ahead and continue to spout baseless assertions. It may hurt your credibility to insist on facts not in play but go ahead, I'll just know it's your thing and ignore it from now on.
    I see what you were referring to now! In this comment I was actually thinking of Guggenheim's and his writers’ perception of the Olicity fandom in relation to the general "Arrow" fandom, or the viewership at large. When Marc Guggenheim in his interviews concerning Laurel's death repeatedly claimed that the producers/writers don't tailor their storylines in accordance with the wishes of this or that Internet fanbase, fans came up with many "receipts" with actual screen shots where Guggenheim/Arrowwriters openly admitted taking ideas from the Internet. Some concerned minor plot elements, such as Felicity's codename, but some concerned some pretty major story developments, such as the Quentin/Donna romance, and Donna's expanded role on the show. When Quentin and Donna hooked up, the Arrowwriters triumphantly declared THIS on twitter:

    http://imgur.com/r07Bm19

    In my eyes such pronouncements are ample evidence that Arrowwriters/Guggenheim believe (or believed, since the post-Laurel death backlash may have changed that perception) that the oliciters on their twitter feed represent the viewership or at least the fandom at large. You see, I would bet that 90% of the posters who enthuse over "Momma Smoak" and campaigned for SmoakandLance on every conceivable social media are Olicity shippers. Although I'm sure that there are viewers who might want Quentin to have some romance, my impression is that many non-shipper fans view the Quentin/Donna hook up as a ship that mainly came about to give one of Felicity’s supporting characters a role that goes beyond her being Felicity’s mother. Those Laurel fans who are prone to conspiracy theories see the whole SmoakandLance thing as yet another attempt to let Felicity usurp Laurel's role and function in the “Arrow” story: if Quentin hooks up with Donna, Felicity can become Quentin's beloved stepdaughter, who will help him get over Laurel's death. Since oliciter Big Name Fans are already asking the writers to explore "Quentin's and Felicity's father/daughter relationship", this might be more than just fandom paranoia!

    Anyway, my point is that Guggenheim, Mericle and their writers sometimes actually do seem to confuse the social media oliciters on their twitter timeline with the fandom as a whole, or even with the casual viewers. Why would they otherwise turn to the WHOLE fandom (because those who communicate with them on twitter are by no means ONLY oliciters, although they sometimes seem to dominate) and call them "you", or regard the demands/wishes of a shipper fanbase as the wishes of the "Arrow" fandom as a whole? Even if we let aside the IMHO very disputable practice of letting fandom chatter influence story developments, the most detrimental aspect of this whole TPTB/fandom relationship is that the TPTB are so unaware that they’re NOT serving the fans, but a specific shipper fanbase.

    The video with the resurrection of the fern is another example of how Guggenheim is unable to make a distinction between general fans of the show and the Olicity fandom. When Guggenheim did the video with “the resurrection of the fern” in order to promote a charity effort, he again addressed “the fans”, and said he made the video for them. Of course, the ONLY fans who ever cared about the Olicity “Love Fern” or talked about it online are the Olicity shippers. I have seen countless posts on various forums where people ask about the fern and its symbolism, because they don’t have a clue what it is. I do know about the fern from oliciter online “buzz”, but TBH I regard it as a totally irrelevant PLANT which has no real significance or bearing on the plot….as opposed to e.g. the picture of Laurel, which was prominently featured in many island scenes, and actually had an important symbolic meaning in the Laurel/Oliver storyline. Anyway, I would say that the fern video is another sign of the “Arrow” producers symbiotic relationship with a shipper fanbase, which makes them pick up online memes which have no meaning to anyone except the most social media active Olicity shippers.

    These pretty blatant instances of “listening to the (Olicity)fans” may seem innocent, but when they are considered in the light of what happened in seasons three and four (the implementation of Olicity, Felicity’s expanded role, Laurel’s death), it is hard NOT to see them as a sign that Guggenheim and Mericle do consider the Olicity fanbase as the most important, and hence as the one whose preferences they will try to satisfy. And if such an idea takes root, it doesn’t matter how many times Guggenheim declares that he writes his own story, and that he doesn’t cater to any specific fanbase.

    Why do you even insist on speaking for other posters? Why not just speak on your behalf? Do you think your opinions don't hold weight? Are you seeking validation by some idea of a consensus? Does that mean if someone proved the opposite that you would change your opinions? If not, what is the point in needlessly bogging down the discussion with "well everybody thinks" when numbers supporting any one position CAN'T be proven? I still do not accept that by naming a few sites that have ALWAYS been anti-Olicity and hated anything of that nature that I should be swayed that this is a majority opinion. Again, you don't know this and I'm tired of it being presented as fact. But honestly, go ahead and continue to spout baseless assertions. It may hurt your credibility to insist on facts not in play but go ahead, I'll just know it's your thing and ignore it from now on.
    These two quotes deal with similar matters, so I’ll reply to both of them together. First of all, I thought our topic was the portrayal of Oliver/Felicity relationship, and how it is perceived in various parts of the fandom. Secondly, I wasn’t speaking for other posters….I was basically relaying what I have seen online on various forums. I wasn’t trying to validate my own opinions by referring to other fans who feel the same way, especially since I know that it’s just as easy to defend Felicity and Olicity by referring to the sentiments expressed on Felicity/Olicity-friendly forums and fan spaces.

    However, I do think it’s important to point out that the online fandom is VERY divided when it comes to Felicity and her (expanded) role on the show as well as when it comes to the Olicity romance and its impact on the overall storytelling. If you want to discuss Felicity/Olicity you cannot just ignore this schism/rift that divides the fandom, especially after Laurel/KC was written off the show. The disappointment with the show’s current direction and the anger over Laurel’s death is the MAJOR topic on almost every discussion forum and social media (FB, twitter) I know of, and Felicity’s (perceived) dominance, as well as how Olicity has impacted on Oliver’s character portrayal, is an important factor in these discussions.

    I can understand if people want to remain in their oliciter bubble and disregard any negative online feedback. However, it frankly annoys me a bit when the very same Olicity shippers who made such a big thing out of Laurel's lack of online popularity (and even took it as a reason why her role should be diminished) now stick their heads in the sand and dismiss every criticism of Felicity/Olicity as the rantings of an insignificant minority of Laurel/comic book stans. You can't have your cake and eat it.....if you're going to use fandom sentiments as an incentive for the writers to bring about changes in the story arcs/character relationships, you cannot deny those fans who have problems with YOUR fave character/ship the right to have their voices heard when they demand changes in the writing.

    As for imdb, reddit, IGN etc. being anti-Felicity or anti-Olicity, that is, in fact, a misconception! I have been reading posts on these forums since season one, and I can tell you that Felicity was a very well-liked character in seasons one and two, while Laurel was the designated punching bag, who was the subject of daily bashing trains. As for the Oliver/Felicity relationship, there were many posters who thought they had chemistry and that their scenes were more fun to watch than the heavy Laurel/Oliver melodrama (especially during Laurel’s crucible in season two). The dislike for Felicity and Olicity started in season three, ironically enough when Olicity became a real thing on screen. So, even though you may not agree, there is a clear correlation between the (perceived) poor writing of the Olicity relationship in later seasons, and the ship's rather massive decline in popularity on THESE forums.

    The way I see it, the negative opinions that the members of these boards display towards Olicity cannot be dismissed as some some kind of inherent and unmotivated “hate”. I didn’t agree with much of the criticism leveled against Laurel (especially in seasons one and two) but I never felt the need to refuse that it existed, because it was very apparent that it did. In fact, I could even agree that SOME of it was understandable, since Laurel was not a very likeable character in season two, due to her substance abuse storyline. You seem to dismiss or diminish the sentiments expressed on some of the largest online “Arrow” forums just because they don’t tally with your own. On the other hand I may be wrong, since the fact that you come to this forum, and take part in the discussions may be a sign that you are aware of these sentiments and take them seriously.

    Finally, I’m going to say something that might annoy you even more, but at this point I guess I don’t really care….I find your curt dismissal of redditors/imdb posters as "haters rather inconsequential, since you (by your own admission) are an active participant on a forum which is very Laurel/Katie Cassidy negative, namely the previously.tv. In fact, the anti-Laurel/Katie bias became so strong that the mods even had to intervene:

    http://imgur.com/l6EoR4f

    Now, if the moderators of a site have to intervene in such a forceful manner, things have gotten pretty out of hand...and the truth is that previously.tv is just as notorious in the Laurel/BC fandom as reddit is in the olicity fandom. The only difference is that previously.tv posters are maybe a bit more genteel...However, otherwise I frankly don't see much of a difference between the previously.tv posters' heavily negative bias towards anything Laurel/Black Canary/Lauriver/KC and some reddit/imdb posters' negative bias towards Felicity or Olicity. In fact, I would say that there is a great deal more thinly disguised disdain towards ACTORS ( i.e Katie Cassidy) in previously.tv threads than what you see on other forums, which mostly stick to the characters and leave actors out of the discussion. The worst thing I've heard about EBR on imdb/reddit is that she is a mediocre actress, and that is IMHO within the bonds of forum criticism. Anyway, the fact that you have no problems participating on previously.tv, despite the fact that even the moderators at one time had problems with the Laurel/Katie "hate" kind of confirms that it's easier to see "hate", unfair criticism and "group think" among people whose opinions differ from your own.This applies to myself as well, so I'm not slamming you. I'm just saying that from where I'm standing there are fan spaces out there which are just as "hateful" and biased towards certain characters as imdb and reddit are.
    Last edited by evaba; 05-10-2016 at 08:21 AM.

  8. #53
    Posting Pro DoubleDevil's Avatar
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    Sorry but I'm tired of having my words twisted around so that I have to repeat myself in self defense.

    I never said that Felicity "had" to run the company into the ground because she wasn't born into it or founded it nor did I ever claim that anybody viewed their name and reputation more important to protect than anybody else. I placed all 3 controversial CEO's we've been discussing on equal ground and showed that they aren't on equal ground. What is excusable and almost acceptable behavior from Oliver and Ray isn't excusable nor acceptable behavior from Felicity. It's not sexist, it's not because I dislike the character, it's simply on equal ground she doesn't deserve the same leniency for socially unacceptable behavior.
    Last edited by DoubleDevil; 05-10-2016 at 07:44 AM.

  9. #54
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDevil View Post
    Sorry but I'm tired of having my words twisted around so that I have to repeat myself in self defense.

    I never said that Felicity "had" to run the company into the ground because she wasn't born into it or founded it nor did I ever claim that anybody viewed their name and reputation more important to protect than anybody else. I placed all 3 controversial CEO's we've been discussing on equal ground and showed that they aren't on equal ground. What is excusable and almost acceptable behavior from Oliver and Ray isn't excusable nor acceptable behavior from Felicity. It's not sexist, it's not because I dislike the character, it's simply on equal ground she doesn't deserve the same leniency for socially unacceptable behavior.
    I seriously tried to get into your head and understand your reasoning for your stance but I'm baffled. I just don't at all get what you are using as a reason for leniency for Ray or Oliver that doesn't apply to Felicity. All I'm getting is that somehow Queen Co and Palmer Tech were more Ray or Oliver's company and thus theirs to do with as they please but how is Palmer Tech which Felicity now owns not hers to do with as she pleases?

    Oliver inherited the company and position and if he did a bad job, it cost him personal money. It's the same for Felicity since she also inherited/was given the company and if it does badly, she loses money. You mentioned that she didn't have money before so it's no loss to her but to me that sounds like saying last year the checks I cashed didn't include a substantial raise so if it vanished now I wouldn't care. Believe me. I would care. A lot.

    Ray may or may not have come from family money but he did also create and build up Palmer Tech. And he focused all his resources, his money and connections and leveraged them to make his suit to help stop bad guys and then gave away his company. It was his right to do all that. But why isn't it Felicity's right to use what is now her company's power to help stop the bad guys? Technically without her ability to retrieve what everyone else said could not be retrieved, Ray couldn't have made his suit. Or at least that was Ray's thinking. Did she created Palmer Tech from the ground up? No, but Ray felt she somehow earned it.

    It is a double standard when Felicity must be held to a higher standard than Ray or Oliver.

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    I think it boils down to nepotism. If/When Palmer Tech is renamed Smoak Technologies, it'll suddenly be fine because her name is on the side of the building. Its utterly stupid, I agree, but that's what I see it as. Besides, while Ray didn't face any consequences for his actions, Oliver actually did: he lost his company. Isabel was able to sway the Board (whom includes Felicity's apparent rival Mr. Dennis, if I recall right) because Oliver hadn't shown any leadership skills for QC. Ray won the company in Season 3 because of his charisma and prepared arguments, whereas Oliver had a very simple, "company is family" speech, which would have gone off a bit better if he didn't use Moira as the source of it....

    However, they did have mentions of the problems PT faced when Ray did his vanishing act to finish the ATOM suit in Season 3, and they did cover the problems Palmer Tech had after his apparent death. But there was absolutely no word about how Palmer Tech was affected when Felicity was paralyzed, amongst other things. So the standard here isn't that Felicity is being ripped to shreds, figuratively speaking, for doing the same things Oliver and Ray have each done during their own tenures as CEO, but because she is doing so with none of the same consequences for either herself OR the company.

  11. #56
    Posting Pro DoubleDevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    I seriously tried to get into your head and understand your reasoning for your stance but I'm baffled. I just don't at all get what you are using as a reason for leniency for Ray or Oliver that doesn't apply to Felicity. All I'm getting is that somehow Queen Co and Palmer Tech were more Ray or Oliver's company and thus theirs to do with as they please but how is Palmer Tech which Felicity now owns not hers to do with as she pleases?

    Oliver inherited the company and position and if he did a bad job, it cost him personal money. It's the same for Felicity since she also inherited/was given the company and if it does badly, she loses money. You mentioned that she didn't have money before so it's no loss to her but to me that sounds like saying last year the checks I cashed didn't include a substantial raise so if it vanished now I wouldn't care. Believe me. I would care. A lot.

    Ray may or may not have come from family money but he did also create and build up Palmer Tech. And he focused all his resources, his money and connections and leveraged them to make his suit to help stop bad guys and then gave away his company. It was his right to do all that. But why isn't it Felicity's right to use what is now her company's power to help stop the bad guys? Technically without her ability to retrieve what everyone else said could not be retrieved, Ray couldn't have made his suit. Or at least that was Ray's thinking. Did she created Palmer Tech from the ground up? No, but Ray felt she somehow earned it.

    It is a double standard when Felicity must be held to a higher standard than Ray or Oliver.
    Let me ask this way, what (besides what Felicity inherited) did she invest in Palmer Tech/Queen Consolidated? Just changing the name to Smoak Technologies won't change things. When Felicity invests a substantial amount of her personal wealth (that she earned, not inherited) then I'll show her the same leniency I show Oliver and Ray. Yes Oliver inherited the company but it was a family business, a legacy his father left him and he's taken up the Hood in honor of his father so no matter how lousy a CEO Oliver was, he doesn't want his father's name disgraced any further than necessary. Felicity may want the same thing for Ray but the investment in saving his name isn't the same as saving ones own. Getting a raise 2 years before getting fired isn't the same as investing your personal savings so call it nepotism if you like but Felicity loosing money at the moment isn't the same personal investment as Oliver or Ray.
    Last edited by DoubleDevil; 05-10-2016 at 05:27 PM.

  12. #57
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    These two quotes deal with similar matters, so I’ll reply to both of them together. First of all, I thought our topic was the portrayal of Oliver/Felicity relationship, and how it is perceived in various parts of the fandom
    In general I try not to speak for others posters or fans or relay what "they" think or feel because it can't be quantitated. It's forbidden on Previously.tv unless it's like referring to polls or something that can be measured. Even talking about other fans is verboten. I have in the past made generalizations here since no one seemed to care about that. Call it rebellion against the rules at home, but even then, I tried to speak more of the opinions expressed in reviews rather than the impossible to pin down numbers of forums or online. Pretty much in the last couple years, if I mention the fandoms it is to protest generalizations and statements that are presented as fact that cannot be proven.

    The original topic likely began with us addressing different things. I am never going to talk about the general perception of the fandom of Felicity or the Olicity relationship apart from saying any such generalizations can't be quantified. (In as much as I will address specific complaints but will not deal with the generalizations as a subject in itself) I very well know there is a divide on the character. I was addressing the seeming deliberate confusion for why Felicity was with Olver in Hub City. Why the character would be there and why it made sense. Which is why I've been talking about what the characters think about each other. Viewer opinion of the character is a separate issue.

    Viewer opinion on the character like "I wish she wasn't included in the plot line" or "I want the show to stop using her that way" or "the show should have done" insert option - that kind of thinking is about perception and how the character is received. That I can understand but not questioning why she would be included. That was what I was addressing. The in story reasoning for the inclusion of the character.

    I do get my hackles up with statements like "people think" or "fandom feels". Tell me what you think even if it was sparked by something you read someone else say. If you agree it becomes your opinion, but it's meaningless to me if you give me some anonymous opinion. Give me yours or don't give it to me at all. I am trained to reject the whole subject when it is framed as a general consensus since you can't know that when you yourself acknowledge there is a divide in the opinion of fandom and as you said, for every reviewer that has one issue, I can find one that thinks the opposite.

    I can accept if you say you feel like the majority of fandom supports your opinion but then I also need you to accept that I don't share that opinion and it's gotten to the point where I feel like you are trying to force your opinion as fact.

    If you want to discuss Felicity/Olicity you cannot just ignore this schism/rift that divides the fandom, especially after Laurel/KC was written off the show.
    Yes I can. That not everyone agrees with what I think has nothing to do with what I think about Felicity or Olicity. And that's what I'm going to talk about, not what other people might think. If I'm responding to someone else's comments, I'm responding to what I think about them, not the divide in fandom. I especially refuse to bring Laurel into the subject if I'm not talking about her in conjunction to Felicity or Olicity since I don't think her character has had ANYTHING to do with Olicity in years. She's had no in story impact on how Olicity has been written pretty much ever. Laurel has never been in a love triangle with Oliver and Felicity. There is behind the scenes stuff and how characters are used and positioned that impact storylines (like how in my opinion they purposely "killed" Oliver so Laurel's intro as BC wasn't tied to him) but I don't think that means anything in discussing what's shown on screen between the characters.

    And now that she's off the show, I have even less of a reason to include her in the discussion since even those BTS's moves are gone.


    As for imdb, reddit, IGN etc. being anti-Felicity or anti-Olicity, that is, in fact, a misconception! I have been reading posts on these forums since season one, and I can tell you that Felicity was a very well-liked character in seasons one and two, while Laurel was the designated punching bag, who was the subject of daily bashing trains.
    I can't speak to season one but I was reading those boards in season two and I left with no intention of ever returning because I found the boards just terrible. It was MY experience that for every reasonable voice there was either a misogynistic troll trying to shout down any real discussion or someone whining about it not being close enough to the comics or enough action or someone that just wanted to comment on boobs and breasts and as far as I can tell, it's only gotten worse and more combative and dehumanizing.

    You bring up a warning on PTV that was posted TWO years ago (and was always overblown and misconstrued IMO) when the antics on Reddit's board this year was so bad that DC denounced any relationship with it. Perhaps that was overblown as well, but no, nothing is going to convince me that those places are good places to go or a realistic snapshot of the fandom as a whole (let alone humanity as a whole) We'll have to agree to disagree about that.

  13. #58
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    So the standard here isn't that Felicity is being ripped to shreds, figuratively speaking, for doing the same things Oliver and Ray have each done during their own tenures as CEO, but because she is doing so with none of the same consequences for either herself OR the company.
    I think though that the consequences that Ray and Oliver faced weren't shown to be connected to their use of the company jet for private use. As far as I can see, there were no consequences of Ray lending it out or Oliver charting it off to Russia so I don't have an issue if there are also no consequences as a result of the Hub City trip.

    The company is probably going to again be faced with financial ruin after what ever disaster hits Star City this May but it won't be because Felicity borrowed the company jet unless it's because she didn't borrow it soon enough to stop DD earlier.

  14. #59
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDevil View Post
    Let me ask this way, what (besides what Felicity inherited) did she invest in Palmer Tech/Queen Consolidated? Just changing the name to Smoak Technologies won't change things. When Felicity invests a substantial amount of her personal wealth (that she earned, not inherited) then I'll show her the same leniency I show Oliver and Ray. Yes Oliver inherited the company but it was a family business, a legacy his father left him and he's taken up the Hood in honor of his father so no matter how lousy a CEO Oliver was, he doesn't want his father's name disgraced any further than necessary. Felicity may want the same thing for Ray but the investment in saving his name isn't the same as saving ones own. Getting a raise 2 years before getting fired isn't the same as investing your personal savings so call it nepotism if you like but Felicity loosing money at the moment isn't the same personal investment as Oliver or Ray.
    Which somehow circles back to Felicity being held to higher standard in how she uses the company's resources?

    She's invested her time, her name, her reputation, the trust both Ray and Oliver have placed in her, the responsibility she feels to the employees (and the team to cover their operation) and the city and most recently her gratitude to it for her ability to walk. You ever heard the expression more of a royalist than the king? Her investments may not have been monetary, but I don't see how they can be dismissed as without value.

    We are never going to agree about any of this. I think there likely are much larger underlying beliefs that are intractable for you and I can't comprehend so I'm moving on.
    Last edited by BkWurm1; 05-10-2016 at 06:18 PM.

  15. #60
    Site Groupie Shelby Kent's Avatar
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    I've seen it mentioned twice now that "DC" denounced a relationship w/ the Arrow subreddit. While I am aware that the DCcomics subreddit -- which has no official association with DC Comics and which is merely a reddit user created discussion group with a focus on DC comics subjects -- did sever their "relationship" with the Arrow subreddit, I have not seen anything about "DC" doing so. What is this "DC" that has denounced Arrow subreddit? Can anyone provide me with details or a link discussing this? I am very curious and would like to know more.

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