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  • 10 - Awesome

    1 4.55%
  • 9

    2 9.09%
  • 8

    2 9.09%
  • 7

    2 9.09%
  • 6

    2 9.09%
  • 5

    2 9.09%
  • 4

    0 0%
  • 3

    0 0%
  • 2

    0 0%
  • 1 - Burn this episode and that Olicity fern too while you're at it

    11 50.00%
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  1. #31
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDevil View Post
    Haven't seen the episode and have no plans on watching it (haven't watched anything Arrow since the big break-up and even that was watching for much to long) but why ain't I surprised to read people trying to defend Felicity's actions? She's no longer Oliver's girlfriend/fiance and she quit the team so if Oliver wants to go it alone against Darkh that's his business and not hers. Felicity decided she didn't want to be a part of Oliver's life so get the F* out of it. She wants to help out then she should've stuck around to help Diggle instead of putting her nose where it doesn't belong regardless if Oliver fought her on her decision to help or not. I just dislike seeing any storyline where the woman won't allow the guy to move on with his life because she keeps butting her nose in it, sure he's not going to complain because he'll nurse a belief that there's a way to get her back as long as she remains a part of his life but that's just more teeny-romance thinking that this show is smothered in.

    Also with Oliver using the company jet to fly to Russia, Isabel actually did do company business while there so even if it wasn't planned that way it WAS a business trip. As for Felicity using the plane to get to Nanda Parbat, that was Ray's decision not Felicity's so I won't get pissed at her for that rather the love-struck Ray for letting her do it.

    After Laurel was murdered, she rejoined the team. She is back on the team. But since you don't watch I can't be surprised you don't know. And if the positions were reversed and Oliver had broken up with her, he would insist that she didn't head off to face alone a dangerous situation she was afraid would consume her soul. Again, like it or not, these characters still love one another.

    There is a small select group that is outside of the law available to fight evil bad guys and Felicity is one of them (and that is before including evil magic wielding bad guys that murdered a close friend) so they are never going to be one of those couples that can go their separate ways. Unless something drastically changes, their lives will remain intertwined. The attempt that Felicity made to separate their lives at least gave them time to heal so that they now can work together.

    Take note that it's not the show that is creating angst and melodrama over Felicity and Oliver working together.

    And the fact that Isabell did meet with Russian counterparts doesn't change that it was never Oliver's plan for that to actually happen. And he the CEO that arranged the trip still skipped out on meeting with them. So for him, it still was not a business trip. But of course this issue isn't about being upset that a CEO is using business assets for personal use, it's just that it's Felicity, so really, I'm wasting my time. I'll try to remember that.

  2. #32
    Forum Whiz DoubleDevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    After Laurel was murdered, she rejoined the team. She is back on the team. But since you don't watch I can't be surprised you don't know. And if the positions were reversed and Oliver had broken up with her, he would insist that she didn't head off to face alone a dangerous situation she was afraid would consume her soul. Again, like it or not, these characters still love one another.

    There is a small select group that is outside of the law available to fight evil bad guys and Felicity is one of them (and that is before including evil magic wielding bad guys that murdered a close friend) so they are never going to be one of those couples that can go their separate ways. Unless something drastically changes, their lives will remain intertwined. The attempt that Felicity made to separate their lives at least gave them time to heal so that they now can work together.

    Take note that it's not the show that is creating angst and melodrama over Felicity and Oliver working together.

    And the fact that Isabell did meet with Russian counterparts doesn't change that it was never Oliver's plan for that to actually happen. And he the CEO that arranged the trip still skipped out on meeting with them. So for him, it still was not a business trip. But of course this issue isn't about being upset that a CEO is using business assets for personal use, it's just that it's Felicity, so really, I'm wasting my time. I'll try to remember that.
    I didn't approve of Oliver leaving at the end of season 1 and brought back by Felicity at the beginning of season 2 but gave him a pass because he was the title character (it wasn't that I was upset Felicity had to bring him back but that he thought he could simply walk away) and I didn't approve of him leaving at the end of season 3 only to be brought back again by Felicity at the start of season 4 which I didn't give him a pass on because the show was already lost as far as I was concerned. He left the team so stay the hell away but Oliver is a wishy-washy type anyway wanting one thing and then something totally different so leaving and coming back is completely in character, I just wish it would be his decision instead of continually having to be dragged in by somebody else which is where I do tip my hat to season 4 Felicity.

    I wasn't thrilled by Oliver taking a company jet to Russia, he made it plausible though with his lie (didn't know at that time if he wouldn't have at least a lunch meeting while he was there) but Isabel redeemed Oliver by actually having a business trip while they were there. Ray lending out the jet to fly to Nanda Parbat was a crap move that I wasn't happy with from start to finish so no it's not simply because it's Felicity that I'm unhappy with her making the same BS move. She will take a lot of flak from me but I don't judge with double standards, words are just harsher when they are directed towards her because of a personal dislike. The biggest reason that Felicity catches more flak than Ray as CEO is because it was Ray's money he was wasting (indirectly), Felicity may have inherited some of his financial wealth but since she didn't EARN it I find it totally financially irresponsible. Oliver runs the company in the ground, it's HIS family business he runs in the ground. Ray runs the company in the ground it's RAY's money he's wasting. Felicity was appointed CEO because Ray thought she was the best person for the job so her running the company in the ground is proving she's the wrong person for the job.

    There might be a select small group of people working outside the law but it's already been established that Felicity isn't irreplacable regardless about adding evil magic wielding or the death of a fellow vigilante. That she'll continue having a role in the show isn't in question, it's what type of role are they going to give her and right now it's the role Diggle, Laurel or even Thea should have (had), not Felicity.
    Last edited by DoubleDevil; 05-06-2016 at 07:16 PM.

  3. #33
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    The biggest reason that Felicity catches more flak than Ray as CEO is because it was Ray's money he was wasting (indirectly), Felicity may have inherited some of his financial wealth but since she didn't EARN it I find it totally financially irresponsible. Oliver runs the company in the ground, it's HIS family business he runs in the ground. Ray runs the company in the ground it's RAY's money he's wasting. Felicity was appointed CEO because Ray thought she was the best person for the job so her running the company in the ground is proving she's the wrong person for the job.
    Felicity wasn't just appointed CEO by Ray. He gave her the entire company. She is the one he chose to watch over it, but he didn't just make her an overseer and he didn't place any conditions on her ownership.

    If she so saw fit, she could liquidate the whole thing. She won't though because that's not who she is. But if she thinks that the company that Ray trusted for her to make the best use of, should be used to help save the world, then not only is it completely her right, but it's also clearly something the last two owners and CEO's of the company would approve of.

    There might be a select small group of people working outside the law but it's already been established that Felicity isn't irreplacable regardless about adding evil magic wielding or the death of a fellow vigilante. That she'll continue having a role in the show isn't in question, it's what type of role are they going to give her and right now it's the role Diggle, Laurel or even Thea should have (had), not Felicity.
    In your opinion, but of course it's just the role the Felicity has pretty much had since the end of season one. Plus do you really see Diggle in a place to give advice on harnessing the light within? Cause he'd normally be a great choice but dude just killed his baby brother and lied to his wife who was already worried he'd reverted back to the dark place he'd been before.

    Thea was one of the voices in his head that helped Oliver find his light, but as much as the Queen siblings love and support each other, not so sure Thea has the best judgment when it comes to giving advice. After all, last time she offered her support it was in continuing a lie that had already blown up in his face, he just was in denial. Had Thea supported the truth (which she demands for herself) perhaps she could have helped Oliver move to keep William safe.

    As for Felicity being easily replaced, note that Curtis rejected that life after his time down in the lair. Til he has nothing left to come home to, he's really not an option. I suppose Oliver could hire Felicity's dad but he doesn't seem that trustworthy.
    Last edited by BkWurm1; 05-07-2016 at 12:58 AM.

  4. #34
    Forum Whiz DoubleDevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    Felicity wasn't just appointed CEO by Ray. He gave her the entire company. She is the one he chose to watch over it, but he didn't just make her an overseer and he didn't place any conditions on her ownership.

    If she so saw fit, she could liquidate the whole thing. She won't though because that's not who she is. But if she thinks that the company that Ray trusted for her to make the best use of, should be used to help save the world, then not only is it completely her right, but it's also clearly something the last two owners and CEO's of the company would approve of.
    You give her a pass simply because it's Felicity, I didn't give any of them a pass although I do see both prior CEO's as risking their personal interests by abusing the company, Felicity doesn't. She wasn't a multi-billionaire prior to being CEO therefore running the company in the ground simply pops the little fantasy dream she's living, no real loss for her. While she's abusing her position the same as the two previous CEO's the situation is not on equal ground to be compared. I'd be more inclined to compare Isabel with Oliver and Ray than Felicity. Go to Vegas and you're willing to take bigger risks with money given to you than your own hard earned cash.
    Last edited by DoubleDevil; 05-07-2016 at 04:37 AM.

  5. #35
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    First of all, once again, SOME people feel that way. You cannot speak for every viewer that is not engaged in social media and claim them as sharing your opinion.
    Of course I cannot claim to know what every viewer feels about Felicity or Olicity. If you had read my post a bit more carefully, you would have seen that I was referring to the posters on online forums and other fan spaces, whose opinions I read on a daily basis. Also, even when it comes to the online forums, there are quite a few differences depending on the general demographic and sympathies/antipathies of the forum members. In general I would say that the members on forums such as reddit, imdb, Ksite (mostly), IGN, Superhero forums etc. are pretty angry, disappointed and dissatisfied with the current direction of the show, which they regard as a very palpable decline in quality. On the other hand, on forums like previously.tv or fan spaces like tumblr, fans are in general satisfied with the current direction, because it has established Felicity as the “leading lady” (with a whole host of her own supporting characters, like Donna, Noah and Curtis) as well as Oliver’s canon/endgame love interest. It has also made the mostly oliciter-created and oliciter-promoted “Original Team Arrow” of Oliver, Diggle and Felicity (although Felicity is by no means an “original” member!) the show’s canon, with Thea as an accepted (as opposed to Laurel) kind of "auxiliary member". In general the fans on these forums/fan spaces won’t find any flaws whatsoever with Felicity, Olicity, the fandom-inspired SmoakandLance ship or #OTA (regardless if this “original team” has nothing to with the comics that serve as the inspiration for the show). As for the casual viewer, who never goes online to talk about the show, we can only gauge his opinions through the ratings. Since the ratings sank to an all-time low last week, it might be some indication that the interest in the show has waned, although we cannot know exactly why.

    Anyway, to return to the fans I was referring to, they view Felicity and Olicity in a lot less rosy manner, since they are not content with the Guggenheim version of the Green Arrow mythos. Although many posters point out that it is not only Felicity or the Olicity romance that have brought on the season three/four decline, I would say that Felicity as a character and O/F romance as an element on the show are regarded by many fans as the main culprit, because they feel that the predominance of these elements altered the very fabric of the show. But things are not that simple…..I will include a post that IMHO gives good arguments why so many long-time fans are disappointed with seasons three and four. The poster is addressing the tendency of many Felicity fans/Olicity shippers to dismiss any criticism of the producers' creative decision as shipper jealousy on the part of the Laurel fans:

    That's the problem with shippers. Because they primarily watch Arrow for shipping reasons, they automatically assume that everyone else does, too. So, when people are disappointed in the creative direction of the show and stop watching, it must be because their ship didn't happen. It's ridiculous, but that's how their mind works.

    Me? I stopped watching because the show flat out sucks now. The writing lacks all sense of grace and depth, the quality of the stunt work has diminished drastically, the overall tone of the show is more akin to a cheesy soap opera than an actual superhero show and frankly, the main protagonist has become unwatchable to me. There's nothing cute or interesting about Oliver's co-dependent personality and watching the show trying to romanticize it only makes it an even bigger turn-off.
    Anyway, if you read the posts the forums that I mentioned, you will see that (what is perceived as) Felicity character shilling, or as an unnecessary focus on her and her storylines (to the point where people feel that most things "Arrow" evolve around her now) or (what is perceived as) the co-dependency of the Olicity relationship, are basically regarded as the most obvious symptoms of the general decline in writing and plotting. I think that is also the major reason why these fans don't buy the O/F relationship as it is represented on screen: they know that they are supposed to regard Felicity as Oliver's light and the most important person in his life, but they simply find her too unlikeable, petty and "whiny" to understand why SHE out of all the women in his life should deserve this unique and elevated position. For example, many of these fans feel that Felicity's decision to (literally!) walk out on Oliver after he had delivered that heartfelt speech to his son made her look insensitive to the feelings of the man for whom she is supposed to be the "light" and source of happiness.

    Second, there is a difference in not liking a character or wishing they were not being used in a certain way and thinking it makes no sense why the characters think or feel something that they have clearly shown to feel.

    There was plenty of times that I wished Laurel far away but I'm never going to deny that Oliver loved her or that the rest of the team loved her. Yes, it's what the writers wanted me to think so yes, it is true.
    Denying that Felicity hugely matters to and influences and inspires Oliver would be like me saying that Diggle is pretending to be upset that Laurel is dead. I may question how well the show showed or wrote his relationship with Laurel but I'm not going to say he doesn't feel the way he feels or that those feelings don't make sense when they influence his actions and choices.
    I see your point. On the other hand, during my years on this very forum, I have seen many posts from your pen, where you have given in depth descriptions of the writers' (in your opinion) failure when it comes to Laurel's characterization, a failure that has made her very flawed and unlikeable in your eyes. Reading these posts, I have the distinct feeling that many of your complaints actually stem from your sense of disappointment with how Laurel has been written: we're supposed to view her in a certain manner, but for you the chasm between what we're supposed to feel about her and how she is portrayed leaves a permanent sense of frustration and disappointment. You simply cannot buy what the writers are selling you when it comes to Laurel and her character portrayal, or her role in Oliver's life.

    In a way I think you can empathize or at least understand me, since my feelings are not that different from yours. You see, for ME there is a rather marked difference between how the writers want us to feel about Felicity and her role in Oliver's life, and how I perceive her. For example, when the writers have other characters praise Felicity as the most badass, courageous, kind, intelligent, capable etc. woman in the "Arrow" universe, it feels like "shilling" to me, rather than something that I should accept as true because "that's what the writers want me to think". To me Felicity is one of the most over-rated and over-exposed characters on television, and many of the things that should be true according to the story the writers want to tell me about her do NOT ring true to me.

    I'll give you a few examples, to make you see my POV. Now, it should be understood that my critique of Felicity is colored by my own biases, just like your critique of Laurel, so providing "objective" counter-arguments may not make me change my mind! However, I do think that some aspects could be changed for the better, and maybe make me see her in a different light.

    1. Felicity is a genius hacker and competent CEO

    We have been told on numerous occasions that Felicity is near-genius, not only when it comes to computers, but when it comes to almost everything else. However, the way that EBR has portrayed her has seldom made me feel that her intelligence is SO superlative in comparison to Oliver's or anyone else's. To me her genius intelligence is mostly a part of the brainy nerd stereotype that she was initially meant to embody, before the writers tried to flesh her out a bit more. Most of the time her extraordinary knowledge/intelligence is used either as an easy plot solution or as a way to elevate her in the eyes of the other characters or the viewers....it doesn't feel as a believable/realistic or intrinsic character trait that sets her apart from the other characters in the “Arrow” universe. This very superficial presentation of a person with genius abilities becomes especially apparent in her “hacking”, especially in later seasons. Nowadays she mostly just does a few keystrokes, and in a couple of seconds she comes up with the information that is needed for the plot to move forward. Given that Felicity can apparently access super-secret, hard-to-retrieve information from the Internet simply by clicking on the computer keyboard, you gotta wonder why Ollie and Diggle appear as totally helpless when she isn’t around, since they surely are just as able to click on the computer keyboard as she is. I understand that TV hacking cannot be as arduous or time-consuming as real hacking, for reasons of plot expediency, but lately it’s as if the writers/directors aren’t even trying to maintain any standards of verisimilitude, when it comes to Felicity’s actual hacking or the jargon she uses, which is mostly so-called “technobabble”.

    As for Felicity’s CEO position, I don’t feel that she earned it, or that she has done much to earn it during her tenure as CEO. In fact, her CEO storyline feels just as inconsequential, aborted and meaningless as her paralysis storyline, or Oliver’s mayor storyline. Again, the I have the impression that the main reason why the writers/producers made her CEO in the first place was to give her something to do besides being computer tech, and to elevate her importance, since her financial position made it possible for her to became Oliver’s and the team’s “Sugar Momma”. IF the writers had taken that storyline seriously, they would at least have given us some scenes where she actually WORKS as the owner/leader of a big company on the brink of bankruptcy, and encountered some difficulties that couldn’t be solved with some magic invention by Curtis Holt.

    2. Felicity as a good person and the incomparable love of Oliver’s life

    I’m not disputing that Felicity is as good and kind person. However, I don’t think that she is any more good and kind than Thea, Diggle, Laurel or any of Oliver’s OTHER love interests. For example, I would say that Shado was a great deal more kind, unselfish and understanding towards Oliver than Felicity has been lately. Given this, I DO find it hard to buy the idea that she “hugely matters to, inspires and influences” Oliver, because I frankly don’t see in which way she can influence and inspire him. For someone to “inspire and influence” someone else they have to display some special and admirable traits (maturity, an ability to see someone else's POV, etc.), and in my eyes Felicity doesn’t have enough of these traits to deserve to be put on the almost celestial pedestal that her online fans OR Oliver have put her on.

    I’m sure you can understand my point of view, since I believe you felt the same way about Laurel in season one…that she didn’t deserve to be worshipped by Oliver and Tommy. I feel the same way about Felicity…I cannot find any real reasons why Oliver should be with her (rather than with some other woman) other than the online popularity of the Olicity ship, or the writers’ sentiments that SA and EBR have good chemistry and therefore should become the show's main narrative ship. And if the writers cannot SHOW me that Felicity is the ONE woman out of all women in the world that will make Oliver happy or inspire him to greatness, it doesn’t matter how many times they TELL me (or let other characters tell me) that this is the case.

    So, when your own vision of a relationship differs in a major way from how this relationship is supposed to be viewed according to the script, it is not that easy to just accept because that is what the writers want me to think and hence, this is how things ARE. It's the writers job to make the Oliver/Felicity romance "organic" (one of Guggie's favourite words!), engaging, believable and interesting, and in my eyes they have failed rather miserably. It has become something that weighs down the narrative, and IMHO makes Oliver appear as a LESSER man than he was in seasons one and two. That is why I and many others (if I'm to judge what I read online) feel that Olicity isn't the grand love saga that it's made out out to be by Guggenheim and his writers. And since fans/viewers are not passive consumers, they will voice their discontent, especially if they feel that a poorly written romance takes up too much time from other characters and storylines that they regard as more interesting or vital.

    I'm not one of those preteens writing fan fic that can't separate a personal dislike for a character and what the other characters feel for that character.
    With all due respect, I don't think you're any more objective or able to separate your personal feelings/biases (positive or negative) from what the writers are trying to tell us than any other poster on this forum.
    Last edited by evaba; 05-09-2016 at 02:30 AM.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by evaba View Post
    I understand that TV hacking cannot be as arduous or time-consuming as real hacking, for reasons of plot expediency, but lately it’s as if the writers/directors aren’t even trying to maintain any standards of verisimilitude, when it comes to Felicity’s actual hacking or the jargon she uses, which is mostly so-called “technobabble”.
    As a computer science major in university, I have something to say to this.

    The most realistic depiction of hacking I have seen in an episode of Arrow was done by Oliver in the pilot. I know that a lot of people have criticized the "hacking arrow" but I do not believe that the arrow did any of the actual hacking. In my opinion, the arrow was more likely a probe of some sort that basically functioned as a digital eavesdropping device. I would imagine that after he was attacked Adam Hunt would have logged into his bank account to check that the "Hood" did not get any of his money, the arrow would have recorded all the information and transmitted it back to Oliver, who in the morning would simply log in to Hunt's accounts with the newly stolen info to transfer all the funds back to the victims.

    I have probably over-simplified that past the point of accuracy, but nowhere near the levels of butchery the writers do when glorifying Felicity's abilities.

  7. #37
    Forum Whiz Amarice's Avatar
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    I liked your post, evaba. Very insightful analysis. For me that whole shipping wars in fandom(s) is weird, because IMO romantic relationship in the "Arrow" should be never be main focus, should never occupy prominent place, and for sure the plot should never be build around The Love of the Life, will they/won't they/fake weddings/breaking up relationships to the extend it happens in the show right now all the time.

    I guess some Olicity shippers jump to conclusion that people would be happy is the exactly the same stuff happen but Laurel would be on Felicity place. No. That's not the case. There will be perhaps less retcon, but it would be equally bad if written in the exactly same manner. Not to mention that you just can't copy/paste a character in the exact the same situation and make it work. Although in season 3/4 everyone act often as if the were out of the character Because of the Reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Klaus1994 View Post
    As a computer science major in university, I have something to say to this.

    The most realistic depiction of hacking I have seen in an episode of Arrow was done by Oliver in the pilot. I know that a lot of people have criticized the "hacking arrow" but I do not believe that the arrow did any of the actual hacking. In my opinion, the arrow was more likely a probe of some sort that basically functioned as a digital eavesdropping device. I would imagine that after he was attacked Adam Hunt would have logged into his bank account to check that the "Hood" did not get any of his money, the arrow would have recorded all the information and transmitted it back to Oliver, who in the morning would simply log in to Hunt's accounts with the newly stolen info to transfer all the funds back to the victims.

    I have probably over-simplified that past the point of accuracy, but nowhere near the levels of butchery the writers do when glorifying Felicity's abilities.
    That's very interesting piece of information. I guess watching this "hacking" is as painful for you as for me when I see nonsense like shooting two arrows at once in two different direction (Carrie, how could you?).
    Last edited by Amarice; 05-08-2016 at 04:16 AM.

  8. #38
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    I'm sorry but this Felicity bashing is getting on my nerves. I have no problem with bringing up character flaws, no problem at all...when they deserve it. And lord knows Felicity has deserved her fair share of criticism. But it's getting to a point that no matter what she does, people will find a problem with it. In this particular episode there is no need to get on Felicity, she had part in the plot and it dates all the way back to the end of season 1. Felicity has always been the one to bring Oliver away from the darkness into the light. In the first couple seasons it was much more subtle, while in the last couple seasons it's been much more obvious. Did Felicity insert herself in this situation without solicitation? Yes she did. But come on, we are surprised by this? She has always been this way, especially after her relationship with Oliver has evolved over the years. Finally, when Ollie was fighting the darkness, the last traumatic event he saw was Felicity breaking off the engagement. Let's put this into context. For years Ollie has been fighting the darkness within. Felicity has helped convince him he can change, that he deserves happiness and that he doesn't need to be a slave to what happened to him on the island. So by breaking off the engagement and telling Oliver he will always be the person that came home from the island, it just confirmed all the things Ollie has thought about himself. So ya, that event was just the culmination of every bad thing that has happened to him.

    I'm just so tired of all the complaining. This started to happen on the forums near the end of Smallville and I hated it then too. Felicity is a main character everyone. It is what it is. So if it makes sense to the story, like tonight, what's the big deal?

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by 134sc View Post
    Felicity is a main character everyone. It is what it is. So if it makes sense to the story, like tonight, what's the big deal?
    How did it make sense for Felicity to accompany Oliver to Hub City for his magic lessons? She had no business there. The story was about Oliver and how he deals with his inner darkness and light. If they stopped shoehorning her in everything Oliver related, the complaining wouldn't be so intense.
    Last edited by costas22; 05-08-2016 at 12:15 PM.

  10. #40
    Site Groupie Shelby Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 134sc View Post
    ...I have no problem with bringing up character flaws, no problem at all...when they deserve it. And lord knows Felicity has deserved her fair share of criticism. But it's getting to a point that no matter what she does, people will find a problem with it. In this particular episode there is no need to get on Felicity, she had part in the plot and it dates all the way back to the end of season 1...Did Felicity insert herself in this situation without solicitation? Yes she did. But come on, we are surprised by this? She has always been this way, especially after her relationship with Oliver has evolved over the years.
    Okay so, are you saying that from a meta perspective it is a fact that the writers have always inserted the Felicity character into situations when she has not been solicited by other characters to do so, and b/c of this viewers should not be surprised at the FACT that this happened. And thus, viewers should not have complaints about it occurring in this instance (Oliver’s trip to learn magic)?


    Or are you saying that from an in-show perspective the fact that Felicity chose to insert herself into the situation without solicitation (“Did Felicity insert herself in this situation without solicitation? Yes she did.”), which is a habit she has been shown to have, is either not a character flaw at all, or if it is a character flaw, then it is not one deserving of criticism by viewers?


    I guess where I’m not understanding is: On the one hand it seems to me that the argument being presented is that the criticism is about a perceived character flaw, which either doesn’t really exist or which does exist but is not deserving of criticism. And then on the other hand the argument seems to be that this is what the character always does and that the criticism is occurring b/c of an element of surprise occurring on the part of the viewer-criticizer (or to state differently, the criticism is b/c of the viewer-criticizer’s inability or unwillingness to accept the fact that this is what the character always does). But the criticism is not valid b/c the “surprise” is not justified?

    ETA: I should have clarified that I do understand that part of your argument is your contention that it did make sense for Felicity to be there plotwise bc she has had a role going back to S1 serving as an inspirational figure to Oliver in guiding him toward the light. I am just trying to understand some other parts of the argument being made...
    Last edited by Shelby Kent; 05-08-2016 at 03:03 PM.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Kent View Post


    Okay so, are you saying that from a meta perspective it is a fact that the writers have always inserted the Felicity character into situations when she has not been solicited by other characters to do so, and b/c of this viewers should not be surprised at the FACT that this happened. And thus, viewers should not have complaints about it occurring in this instance (Oliver’s trip to learn magic)?


    Or are you saying that from an in-show perspective the fact that Felicity chose to insert herself into the situation without solicitation (“Did Felicity insert herself in this situation without solicitation? Yes she did.”), which is a habit she has been shown to have, is either not a character flaw at all, or if it is a character flaw, then it is not one deserving of criticism by viewers?


    I guess where I’m not understanding is: On the one hand it seems to me that the argument being presented is that the criticism is about a perceived character flaw, which either doesn’t really exist or which does exist but is not deserving of criticism. And then on the other hand the argument seems to be that this is what the character always does and that the criticism is occurring b/c of an element of surprise occurring on the part of the viewer-criticizer (or to state differently, the criticism is b/c of the viewer-criticizer’s inability or unwillingness to accept the fact that this is what the character always does). But the criticism is not valid b/c the “surprise” is not justified?

    ETA: I should have clarified that I do understand that part of your argument is your contention that it did make sense for Felicity to be there plotwise bc she has had a role going back to S1 serving as an inspirational figure to Oliver in guiding him toward the light. I am just trying to understand some other parts of the argument being made...
    I guess what I'm saying is that, the writers had to get her there somehow. It would be out of character for Ollie to ask, but not out of character for Felcity to tell Ollie shes coming. Even before they became closer in season 3, she had opinions about Ollies life that she really had no business being a part of, but Ollie allowed it, because he had a soft spot for her and maybe feelings buried deep down. In season 3 and 4, Felcity has become way more aggressive in this regard and again Ollie has allowed it. In this episode, in my opinion, everybody acted well within their character, so I guess the only crticism to be made is with character herself, but again her actions should not come as a shock to anybod because she has been doing this in one way or another since season 1, and nobody seemed to mind back then. Until she is not on this show anymore, I don't see a time where Oliver and Felicity do not have this type of co-dependent relationship. Maybe that's the problem, I don't know anymore.
    Last edited by 134sc; 05-08-2016 at 08:10 PM.

  12. #42
    Forum Whiz DoubleDevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 134sc View Post
    I guess what I'm saying is that, the writers had to get her there somehow. It would be out of character for Ollie to ask, but not out of character for Felcity to tell Ollie shes coming. Even before they became closer in season 3, she had opinions about Ollies life that she really had no business being a part of, but Ollie allowed it, because he had a soft spot for her and maybe feelings buried deep down. In season 3 and 4, Felcity has become way more aggressive in this regard and again Ollie has allowed it. In this episode, in my opinion, everybody acted well within their character, so I guess the only crticism to be made is with character herself, but again her actions should not come as a shock to anybod because she has been doing this in one way or another since season 1, and nobody seemed to mind back then. Until she is not on this show anymore, I don't see a time where Oliver and Felicity do not have this type of co-dependent relationship. Maybe that's the problem, I don't know anymore.
    Let me sum up Felicity this way, she's a fly buzzing around the living room. You know it's there and might even find it slightly amusing until it becomes more aggressive and starts buzzing around your head. You become highly annoyed.

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    Site Groupie Shelby Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 134sc View Post
    I guess what I'm saying is that, the writers had to get her there somehow. It would be out of character for Ollie to ask, but not out of character for Felcity to tell Ollie shes coming. Even before they became closer in season 3, she had opinions about Ollies life that she really had no business being a part of, but Ollie allowed it, because he had a soft spot for her and maybe feelings buried deep down. In season 3 and 4, Felcity has become way more aggressive in this regard and again Ollie has allowed it. In this episode, in my opinion, everybody acted well within their character, so I guess the only crticism to be made is with character herself, but again her actions should not come as a shock to anybod because she has been doing this in one way or another since season 1, and nobody seemed to mind back then. Until she is not on this show anymore, I don't see a time where Oliver and Felicity do not have this type of co-dependent relationship. Maybe that's the problem, I don't know anymore.
    Okay, thanks I think I have better understanding of your perspective!

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    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDevil View Post
    You give her a pass simply because it's Felicity, I didn't give any of them a pass although I do see both prior CEO's as risking their personal interests by abusing the company, Felicity doesn't. She wasn't a multi-billionaire prior to being CEO therefore running the company in the ground simply pops the little fantasy dream she's living, no real loss for her. While she's abusing her position the same as the two previous CEO's the situation is not on equal ground to be compared. I'd be more inclined to compare Isabel with Oliver and Ray than Felicity. Go to Vegas and you're willing to take bigger risks with money given to you than your own hard earned cash.
    But Felicity ISN'T running the company into the ground. Under her leadership, she turned its financial state around. And when she taps into the companies resources, she's working to save the city and in this particular case, the world. Ray was only interested in using resources to build his super suit so he could play hero. Oliver had good intentions initially (to save the jobs of his family's employees) but he had little interest or ability in overseeing the company and yeah, because of that, he DID let it get run into the ground. Felicity of the three is actually the only one looking out for the business and the city and she's doing very well so far.

    This is the part where I'm told how unrealistic it is. Doesn't work that way. If her feet are held to the fire for perceived sins, then she gets equal credit for stated victories or the very selective standards stand out.

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    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [QUOTE
    evaba;8159393]Of course I cannot claim to know what every viewer feels about Felicity or Olicity. If you had read my post a bit more carefully, you would have seen that I was referring to the posters on online forums and other fan spaces, whose opinions I read on a daily basis.
    Well this is the quote I was replying to:

    However, judging by the posts I've read on various forums, that is not how Felicity or the Olicity relationship are currently perceived by many "Arrow" viewers/fans, rather the opposite. People feel that Felicity is shoehorned into plots and situations where she doesn't belong because she is a writers' pet (or because the producers are so fooled by the constant oliciter twitter spamming that they believe that the casual viewer is as enamoured by Felicity as her most social media active online fans).
    It seemed clear that you were equating the casual viewer with those not engaged in social media and that it was your belief that MG and company thinks they like things they don't. But for that misunderstanding, I apologize. I still do not accept that by naming a few sites that have ALWAYS been anti-Olicity and hated anything of that nature that I should be swayed that this is a majority opinion. Again, you don't know this and I'm tired of it being presented as fact. But honestly, go ahead and continue to spout baseless assertions. It may hurt your credibility to insist on facts not in play but go ahead, I'll just know it's your thing and ignore it from now on.


    Anyway, to return to the fans I was referring to, they view Felicity and Olicity in a lot less rosy manner, since they are not content with the Guggenheim version of the Green Arrow mythos
    .

    Why do you even insist on speaking for other posters? Why not just speak on your behalf? Do you think your opinions don't hold weight? Are you seeking validation by some idea of a consensus? Does that mean if someone proved the opposite that you would change your opinions? If not, what is the point in needlessly bogging down the discussion with "well everybody thinks" when numbers supporting any one position CAN'T be proven?




    For example, many of these fans feel that Felicity's decision to (literally!) walk out on Oliver after he had delivered that heartfelt speech to his son made her look insensitive to the feelings of the man for whom she is supposed to be the "light" and source of happiness.
    And these are the same fans that don't worry a whit about how hurtful Oliver's actions were in keeping his surprise kid a secret from Felicity. Pretty much negates IMO the legitimacy of their indignation.


    I see your point. On the other hand, during my years on this very forum, I have seen many posts from your pen, where you have given in depth descriptions of the writers' (in your opinion) failure when it comes to Laurel's characterization, a failure that has made her very flawed and unlikeable in your eyes. Reading these posts, I have the distinct feeling that many of your complaints actually stem from your sense of disappointment with how Laurel has been written: we're supposed to view her in a certain manner, but for you the chasm between what we're supposed to feel about her and how she is portrayed leaves a permanent sense of frustration and disappointment. You simply cannot buy what the writers are selling you when it comes to Laurel and her character portrayal, or her role in Oliver's life.
    Which is why I don't like Laurel or how she's used but I have never claimed that Oliver doesn't actually feel about her the way that he has always claimed to feel. And that is what the issue I was replying to about, that of course Oliver behaves like Felicity is important and thinks of her in his life as a big deal and values her input and presence because he LOVES her. You can wish it's not so but there is no reason to doubt Oliver's feelings. He says it, he acts, he shows it. It's about the most unsubtle thing on the show right now.

    In a way I think you can empathize or at least understand me, since my feelings are not that different from yours. You see, for ME there is a rather marked difference between how the writers want us to feel about Felicity and her role in Oliver's life, and how I perceive her. For example, when the writers have other characters praise Felicity as the most badass, courageous, kind, intelligent, capable etc. woman in the "Arrow" universe, it feels like "shilling" to me, rather than something that I should accept as true because "that's what the writers want me to think". To me Felicity is one of the most over-rated and over-exposed characters on television, and many of the things that should be true according to the story the writers want to tell me about her do NOT ring true to me.
    And your feeling about Felicity is just that, your feeling. It has nothing to do with OLIVER's feelings.

    The idea where the viewer makes up a story where Felicity is this manipulative stalker out to control Oliver doesn't jive with her actions but even more so it completely doesn't mesh with Oliver's.

    I didn't like Laurel and I thought her relationship with Oliver in the first couple season showed that as much as they said they cared for each other, they brought out some of the worst behavior. I may have formed my opinion that they had a toxic romantic relationship that could not be salvaged before the show definitively agreed with me, but it did get there pretty fast. And while I was rooting for them to travel their separate paths, I never pretended to be surprised that Oliver would worry over her or try to save her or that she was his blind spot.

    It's the deliberate pretense at confusion as to why Felicity would not want Oliver to face something dangerous on his own or why he would not reject the her support that I am finding maddening. Hate the character but I don't understand at all pretending the characters hate the character. That isn't about viewer opinion over how they perceive the character.

    The debate over how well the show does at establishing the feelings is different than dismissing their influence on the storyline.






    2. Felicity as a good person and the incomparable love of Oliver’s life

    I’m not disputing that Felicity is as good and kind person. However, I don’t think that she is any more good and kind than Thea, Diggle, Laurel or any of Oliver’s OTHER love interests. For example, I would say that Shado was a great deal more kind, unselfish and understanding towards Oliver than Felicity has been lately. Given this, I DO find it hard to buy the idea that she “hugely matters to, inspires and influences” Oliver, because I frankly don’t see in which way she can influence and inspire him. For someone to “inspire and influence” someone else they have to display some special and admirable traits (maturity, an ability to see someone else's POV, etc.), and in my eyes Felicity doesn’t have enough of these traits to deserve to be put on the almost celestial pedestal that her online fans OR Oliver have put her on.
    Not understanding why he feels how he feels is different from accepting that he DOES feel that way. That is what I've been addressing.

    I’m sure you can understand my point of view, since I believe you felt the same way about Laurel in season one…that she didn’t deserve to be worshipped by Oliver and Tommy. I feel the same way about Felicity…I cannot find any real reasons why Oliver should be with her (rather than with some other woman) other than the online popularity of the Olicity ship, or the writers’ sentiments that SA and EBR have good chemistry and therefore should become the show's main narrative ship. And if the writers cannot SHOW me that Felicity is the ONE woman out of all women in the world that will make Oliver happy or inspire him to greatness, it doesn’t matter how many times they TELL me (or let other characters tell me) that this is the case.
    And I'm not begrudging you your opinion on Felicity, I am demanding that you accept Oliver's opinion on Felicity as his real opinion.



    With all due respect, I don't think you're any more objective or able to separate your personal feelings/biases (positive or negative) from what the writers are trying to tell us than any other poster on this forum.
    I wouldn't try to compare myself to other but I could probably prove you wrong about not being able to separate my personal feelings and biases toward the characters when it comes to how they feel and interact with each other. I'd point to any fanfic I've written. Now I have only ever written one thing with Laurel prominently in it, (and only like three things in Arrow in total) but it's very sympathetic to her even though when I first set out to write the little interlude I personally felt very negatively toward her, but how the other characters felt about her and what the show insisted her motivations were were things I could not ignore if I wanted to at all be true to the characters and so in the comment section I had people that were decidedly NOT Laurel fans complaining that I made them sympathize with her.

    I have never been quiet about how much I HATE Lois on Smallville, one of the worst written and acted characters in my TV viewing history but Chloe loves Lois and Lois loves Chloe and the rest of the characters at the very least called her friend so no matter how much I may dislike her, I can't ever write her as a mean witch or cold hearted or anything else completely out of character even if I feel the characterization on the show never supported that she wasn't mostly awful and selfish.
    Last edited by BkWurm1; 05-09-2016 at 09:02 PM.

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