View Poll Results: What did you think?

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14. You may not vote on this poll
  • 10 - So good I could cry

    3 21.43%
  • 9

    3 21.43%
  • 8

    0 0%
  • 7

    0 0%
  • 6

    2 14.29%
  • 5

    1 7.14%
  • 4

    1 7.14%
  • 3

    0 0%
  • 2

    0 0%
  • 1 - Crying becuase it was so bad

    4 28.57%
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  1. #31
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carmine-Infantino View Post
    Over night ratings are in and Arrow pulled in 2.28 million viewers and the demos were 0.9/3 up from the last episode. It doesn't look like killing Laurel is going to have an affect on ratings.
    Bit early to tell that. Especially when you consider that this episode picked up right where Eleven-Fifty-Nine left and Laurel was still in it. The next 1-2 episodes will give us a better indication I feel.

    Mind you, last night's ratings are low compared to the ratings the show was getting around this time last season or earlier in season 4.

  2. #32
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    Bit early to tell that. Especially when you consider that this episode picked up right where Eleven-Fifty-Nine left and Laurel was still in it. The next 1-2 episodes will give us a better indication I feel.
    I agree. Plus, many fans knew this ep. would show the fallout of Laurel's death on the team and her funeral, tying into those flash-forward scenes. If there is any attrition in viewership going into the S4 finale, it'll be cumulative and based on a variety of factors and not just on the death of BC.

    These weeks-long hiatuses they've had in the second half will likely have far more influence on any ratings dip than the death of a main character, which happened several weeks ago. There are probably Arrow viewers who didn't even know that a new ep. had just aired last night -- and who could blame them, with all these periodic breaks in broadcasting new eps.

    If there is a long-term dip in ratings over several episodes going into the S5 premiere, Laurel's death will be one -- but not the only -- contributing factor.

  3. #33
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    I want to say something regarding the second flashback scene. It's common in times of grief to gravitate back to what once felt good or right. It gives us comfort and safety. This scene was exactly that. Two people who needed each other. But Oliver and later Laurel both realized it was a very bad idea and furthermore Laurel developed a very big sense of guilt on multiple levels. Anyway, I didn't see any romance or Laurel throwing herself at Ollie. It was a very sweet scence between ex lovers reminiscing about their fallen friend.

  4. #34
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 134sc View Post
    I want to say something regarding the second flashback scene. It's common in times of grief to gravitate back to what once felt good or right. It gives us comfort and safety. This scene was exactly that. Two people who needed each other. But Oliver and later Laurel both realized it was a very bad idea and furthermore Laurel developed a very big sense of guilt on multiple levels. Anyway, I didn't see any romance or Laurel throwing herself at Ollie. It was a very sweet scence between ex lovers reminiscing about their fallen friend.
    ^This is basically my interpretation as well. Sure, the scenes happened in the aftermath of Tommy's death. They were two long-time friends and exes coping with a tragic loss. There is comfort in familiarity -- and this is the extent of what I got out of their moments. It's not like Laurel and Ollie were making out frantically in a nearby mausoleum one minute after the eulogy, which is how the Laurel haters seem to want to paint Laurel's entire flashback behaviour as. It was one kiss. One. Not some minutes-long make-out session.

    They are looking for a fire, when there is hardly any sign of smoke to find. What they deem as "proof", I see as spin, skewered to fit whatever mold they want to fit their negative perception of Laurel in.

    I think any attempt to inexplicably equate Ollie and Laurel bonding during a period of grief to, say, Ollie's serial cheating behind Laurel's back (which is not spin, but a matter of record and canonical) doesn't measure up in my books. Great Caesar's Ghost, it just looks to me like some Laurel haters are trying to grasp at straws, any straws, with which to slander the character of Laurel, who can no longer defend herself from the grave.

    The only person who could claim grounds for slandering Laurel is Ruve in her negative spinning of Teen Canary's attack re: vigilantes.

  5. #35
    Forum Whiz Amarice's Avatar
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    Watched the flashback scenes on YT. I guess I need to watch them again because I've no idea where they were put on timeline. They seem to be in ontradiction with the comic from the season 1 anothology A BIT. But well. Because of the Reasons etc.

    I liked the connection between Laurel and Oliver presented in those short scenes (even if they didn't make too much sense - what was the meaning of this letter in the end?).

    After reading your reviews I guess I wouldn't be able to enjoy the rest of the episode (especially seeing poor Quentin suffering, who apparently is one step from finding himself on locked ward in St. Walker's Hospital).

  6. #36
    Forum Regular Arrow_47's Avatar
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    Didn't care much for this ep. Terrible follow-up to the last one.

    Top three cringe-worthy moments for me (in order of appearance):

    - Oliver called the "team" together, so what was Felicity doing there? She quit. Had no business showing up. I wanted to quit watching there, but I'm a glutton for punishment (and boy did I get my fill the rest of the episode).
    - Oliver's character in the flashbacks was post-neutered by Felicity Oliver, not The Hood that we saw in season one/start of season two.
    - Laurel creeping on Oliver when she "loved" Tommy, despite the fact that he just died. Desperate much? So much for the strong female leads.

    Ugh, just rethinking these scenes is giving me a migraine. But being loyal to the end I will continue to watch in agony, only hoping that the writers will soon prove me wrong and get this ship back on course.

    Side note: In sticking with what the writers have given us, Laurel's death falls squarely on Diggle's and Felcitiy's shoulders; period.

  7. #37
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    They were two long-time friends and exes coping with a tragic loss. There is comfort in familiarity -- and this is the extent of what I got out of their moments. It's not like Laurel and Ollie were making out frantically in a nearby mausoleum one minute after the eulogy, which is how the Laurel haters seem to want to paint Laurel's entire flashback behaviour as. It was one kiss. One. Not some minutes-long make-out session.
    The kiss honestly doesn't phase me, but what turned it IMO from two people taking comfort in familiarity into something that reflected badly on Laurel was the line she says after the kiss about how much she was looking forward to the future. It was like she had completely put Tommy and what she felt for him behind her. Like she was gleeful. It was too much. And it's the moment Oliver's face went "what the heck?".

    The other big problem with those flashbacks is it turns out they directly contradict the supposed canon for the show season 1.5 comic flashbacks that had OLIVER give Tommy's eulogy and Laurel so lost in her grief that she refused to see anyone.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrow_47 View Post
    Didn't care much for this ep. Terrible follow-up to the last one.

    Top three cringe-worthy moments for me (in order of appearance):

    - Oliver called the "team" together, so what was Felicity doing there? She quit. Had no business showing up. I wanted to quit watching there, but I'm a glutton for punishment (and boy did I get my fill the rest of the episode).
    - Oliver's character in the flashbacks was post-neutered by Felicity Oliver, not The Hood that we saw in season one/start of season two.
    - Laurel creeping on Oliver when she "loved" Tommy, despite the fact that he just died. Desperate much? So much for the strong female leads. .
    What I'm about to say is not only directed to you, but I'm using what you wrote as an example. I feel that those people are upset with the direction the story has taken are failing to look at the individual episodes objectively.

    These "issues" you and others present are in my opinion not issues at all. I feel many people are projecting what they don't like about the story onto episodes that don't even have those problems present. For example, yes Felicity left the team, but Laurel just died for goodness sakes. I think she is allowed to rethink things and help out.

    people are making the show out to have bigger problems then it has. I admit the quality has not been as a good over the last couple seasons, but that doesn't mean it's been bad. This season especially has been pretty good, different, but good in its own way. To take what you don't like and then go out looking for it is not a very healthy way to watch a TV program.

    But hey, at the end of the day it's just a TV show, it's not like we r curing cancer or somthing else important.

  9. #39
    Forum Regular Arrow_47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 134sc View Post
    What I'm about to say is not only directed to you, but I'm using what you wrote as an example. I feel that those people are upset with the direction the story has taken are failing to look at the individual episodes objectively.

    These "issues" you and others present are in my opinion not issues at all. I feel many people are projecting what they don't like about the story onto episodes that don't even have those problems present. For example, yes Felicity left the team, but Laurel just died for goodness sakes. I think she is allowed to rethink things and help out.

    people are making the show out to have bigger problems then it has. I admit the quality has not been as a good over the last couple seasons, but that doesn't mean it's been bad. This season especially has been pretty good, different, but good in its own way. To take what you don't like and then go out looking for it is not a very healthy way to watch a TV program.

    But hey, at the end of the day it's just a TV show, it's not like we r curing cancer or somthing else important.
    I am okay with it being directed at me; as I've called attention to, this is all simply what you feel and your opinion. I am glad you shared it. That's why I like sharing on these boards. We post how we feel about the show. I'm not looking to be right, I am simply doing what you just did - giving my perspective on the show. Since this is an episode discussion thread, I addressed what I didn't like about this particular episode. The show in general has definitely taken a downward spiral and the writing has gotten increasingly bad. The biggest gripe, as I've stated in numerous threads, is the inconsistency of the character development of all the major players. In season one of Arrow, Oliver's relationship with Laurel was tumultuous as best. No way, based on what we've seen on the show, would that flashback have occurred, Especially with her being so dreamy-eyed in love with him and hoping they could have a future together. I get you see it a different way, and maybe your analysis is better than mine. Still doesn't change how I feel about what TPTB are doing.

    Regarding it being just a TV show, that may be true...for most. For me, I attend numerous Comic-Cons as Arrow. I do some volunteer community work in character. While I'm not curing cancer, I can still bring a smile to the face of a child who may be dealing with cancer. As long as the show is well received, I will continue to have this venue to make a difference.

    Keep posting and enjoy the show!

  10. #40
    Site Groupie Shelby Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrow_47 View Post
    ... I'm not looking to be right, I am simply doing what you just did - giving my perspective on the show.
    Whether or not I watch an episode, I always enjoy the opportunity to read about and hear of others' perspectives and feelings about the show. I find it educational and interesting to read all the various interpretations and thoughts that arise among viewers with their different perspectives, after viewing the same thing. I guess I find it very enriching and, as @dreamsofnever so often points out far more eloquently than I ever can, it's a way to learn and increase empathy. So interesting! -- the great variety of emotions, mental associations and opinions that can be triggered among viewers; and all because we each bring our own unique life experiences and circumstances to our TV viewing experience. And of course, as with all subjective activities, such as watching a TV show, it's to be expected (to paraphrase) that we can never fully see, feel, or understand another's experience, without having first walked a mile in his/her shoes. So I do agree with you how invaluable I find the sharing of opinions, thoughts and feelings about the show to be, and I agree that for me the goal is not to be "right" -- (for afterall who determines "right" about a subjective experience?) -- but rather to share, so that we can enjoy, learn about and better understand others, and be stimulated and enriched by exposure to new ideas, thoughts and perspectives.


    Quote Originally Posted by Arrow_47 View Post
    Regarding it being just a TV show, that may be true...for most. For me, I attend numerous Comic-Cons as Arrow. I do some volunteer community work in character. While I'm not curing cancer, I can still bring a smile to the face of a child who may be dealing with cancer. As long as the show is well received, I will continue to have this venue to make a difference.
    This is so nice to hear about and so inspiring! And it almost makes me want to watch the show again -- just to contribute to viewer numbers and therefore help the show be "well received." Almost. But sadly, for now, I just can't rise above my no-doubt childishly immature dislike of all-things-Felicity , nor above my newfound supreme irritation at the death of Laurel, enough, that is, so as to be a bigger, better person.

    Alas, I fear for now I will just continue to be nothing more than a petty subpar irate former-viewer

  11. #41
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    It's very refreshing to have people be civil in their posts. At the end of the day, we are all sharing our opinions and if we all agreed it would be awfully boring wouldn't it.

    I hope that the majority though feel as I do, just cause it would be a shame to lose this show. Luckily it takes a lot for the CW to cancel shows. Looking at you Supernatural..lol

  12. #42
    Site Groupie Shelby Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 134sc View Post
    I hope that the majority though feel as I do, just cause it would be a shame to lose this show. Luckily it takes a lot for the CW to cancel shows. Looking at you Supernatural..lol
    I certainly understand that feeling when I think about shows that I really like. I think SA has a contract thru 2019 and I would be very surprised if they ended the show before then!

  13. #43
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    No doubt the network shot-callers are looking at the successful run of SV's 10 seasons and are hoping lightning strikes twice.

    Whether SA himself actually "wants" the series to match the SV record or even attempt to chase Supernatural-level longevity -- regardless of where the quality of the series lands, post-S6 -- is a whole other matter. Ideally they would want to end the show while it still has some wind in its sails, which I think would mean once they've played out the story to whatever endgame they've actually sketched out eg five or maybe six seasons, tops.

    Beyond that, I think they would need a double infusion of new showrunners and rejig the current on-screen roster, as I strongly suspect going beyond a six/seven-year-run would also mean one or more characters could depart and/or die simply because one or more actors choose not to continue -- especially if their characters aren't doing much and spinning their wheels story-wise past S6. Arrow could end after five seasons, or go 10 seasons by replicating the SV experience where new people took over after S7. Hard to say with any certainty.

    My preference would be in the 5/6 season run. Going past a S7, the show would truly have to become something else. And like SV, I'm not sure how invested I'd still be in following it actively after 6+ years.

    As for the show itself veering away from or even contradicting their own comics tie-ins canon, I would say many viewers wouldn't even know there were any contradictions because (sad to say) they didn't read the tie-in comics. I'm one of them. I think the rule "If it didn't happen on-screen -- it didn't happen in canon." applies here.

    TPTB can't have their cake and eat it too. If they have the license to veer away from "official" comics canon for storytelling reasons, then fans are just as free not to consider their supposed comics tie-ins as canon. If it was so important to the story they wanted to tell on TV, it should have been included on-screen -- not just in the tie-ins, which only a fraction of the audience would have read.

    I've heard that the S1 comics tie-ins are actually good, but the S2 ones didn't measure up in comparison.

  14. #44
    Forum Whiz Amarice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    I've heard that the S1 comics tie-ins are actually good, but the S2 ones didn't measure up in comparison.
    S1 are excellent tie-ins and show not only backstories for some characters like China White, Deadshot or Huntress, but a lot of short stories with the essence of Green Arrow/Arrow - there is a lot separate stories where the Arrow (well, back then the Hood) helps little guys. For example there is that one, where he meets a little kid in Shanghai and helps him and his family, who is terrorized by local police. And there is many, many more about Quentin, about Laurel and Tommy, about Dig, about Felicity... And of course the Hood interacting with Random People. There is even a gap-filler explaining where that mysterious plane in 1x21 (the episode where Oliver saves Walter in Bludhaven) comes from. And a story where Oliver relives his experences from Queen's Gambit catastrophe - he goes on a yacht to stop drug shippment and that setting causes recurring flashbacks.

    Honestly S1 comics anthologies are one of my favorites of all times. Those stories are well scripted, they are beautifully drawn and inked, and all artists - and there was sevaral of them - brought in something unique. I highly recommend those comics as they have everything which "Arrow" is now lacking.

    Post-S2 comics... I didn't get too far and abandoned them after reading 4 or 5 issues, because it was a major disappointment, both when it came to writing and to drawings.

    Btw. watched two scenes with Quentin from 4x19. And I've ruined my day. :'( Poor Quentin.

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