View Poll Results: What did you think?

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  • 10 - So good I could cry

    3 21.43%
  • 9

    3 21.43%
  • 8

    0 0%
  • 7

    0 0%
  • 6

    2 14.29%
  • 5

    1 7.14%
  • 4

    1 7.14%
  • 3

    0 0%
  • 2

    0 0%
  • 1 - Crying becuase it was so bad

    4 28.57%
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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superles View Post
    Wait you like flashbacks Laurel? The one that was ready to drop her panties and plan a future with Oliver while Tommy's grave was still freshed after she said she was in love with him with everything she had?

    Flashbacks crap on Laurel's character showed a woman with no self respect. Also showed how toxic Oliver and Laurel were. Worst way to honor her.

    Her flashbacks should have been about her family or the time she was defending the city while Oliver and Felicity were away.

    The flashbacks end when Oliver once again rejects her and runs away instead of staying to be with her.
    If we go by that logic, Oliver saying he loved Laurel in his own eulogy to her makes him a cheating prick for daring to say he loved her while his current 'love' interest is standing there.

    Toxic? I love this word being bandied about since I now find it hilarious. The only thing that has ever made it 'toxic' was Oliver and Sara going off together. That's it. The only other 'known' cheating point was Samantha, which happened mere months after Oliver and Laurel got together (if you bother to research). So one moment which had a baby scare and probably kept Oliver from doing it again until Sara, then Sara.

    Felicity, meanwhile, has flirted with pretty much EVERY hero, slept with two of them (Oliver and Ray), and was incredibly unfair to ALL THREE OF THEM when she says in Flash 1x17 or 18 that its like dating Barry's mind in Oliver's body when speaking of Ray.

    Combine this with the fact she put Oliver above everyone else, even the city, when Oliver and Laurel have both put the city above their loved ones as needed.

    No, if we're going to talk toxicity, then Felicity Smoak and the Olicity relationship are the toxic elements, far more than Oliver Queen, Sara Lance, and Laurel Lance's LONG and COMPLICATED history that occurred because they've been in each other's lives since before the age of 10.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDBentz View Post
    If we go by that logic, Oliver saying he loved Laurel in his own eulogy to her makes him a cheating prick for daring to say he loved her while his current 'love' interest is standing there.

    Toxic? I love this word being bandied about since I now find it hilarious. The only thing that has ever made it 'toxic' was Oliver and Sara going off together. That's it. The only other 'known' cheating point was Samantha, which happened mere months after Oliver and Laurel got together (if you bother to research). So one moment which had a baby scare and probably kept Oliver from doing it again until Sara, then Sara.

    Felicity, meanwhile, has flirted with pretty much EVERY hero, slept with two of them (Oliver and Ray), and was incredibly unfair to ALL THREE OF THEM when she says in Flash 1x17 or 18 that its like dating Barry's mind in Oliver's body when speaking of Ray.

    Combine this with the fact she put Oliver above everyone else, even the city, when Oliver and Laurel have both put the city above their loved ones as needed.

    No, if we're going to talk toxicity, then Felicity Smoak and the Olicity relationship are the toxic elements, far more than Oliver Queen, Sara Lance, and Laurel Lance's LONG and COMPLICATED history that occurred because they've been in each other's lives since before the age of 10.
    Episode 1 through 3 season 1 Oliver and Tommy have conversations about how Oliver was a serial cheater and cheated on Laurel MULTIPLE TIMES with MULTIPLE women.

    Love how you just brushed cheating on Laurel with her sister and cheating on her with many other women and getting one pregnant.

    Only thing that ever made it toxic? Lol so a the yelling and fights and Oliver telling laurel for example to go lose herself in a bottle that he will even buy her drinks is not toxic. Him running away from her every chance he got was not toxic.

    You heard that eulogy wrong. The First thing he said was SHE WAS MY FRIEND and i loved her and her me. Circumstances are not even comparable, laurel and Tommy whre together and banging weeks before hand, he died saving her. Grave is not fresh and she is already throwing the vajajay at Oliver.

    Neither Felicity nor Oliver ever cheated on each other. When Ray told Felicity he loved her she didn't say it back.

    Cheated on laurel with her sister and plenty others, rub that relationship in luarels face after Sara came back. Was a serial womanizer while they Laurel, got another woman pregnant. And slept and fell in love with other woman while he was supposedly in love with Laurel. Continued to treat her like crap over the seasons.

    Laurel when it comes to Oliver is a woman with no self respect. Toxic as hell.

  3. #18
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    Haven't read anything on the internet so I don't know how the masses feel about the episode, but for me, this was the best episode in a very long time. Everything was executed very well. The acting, the dialogue, and the story was great. Hopefully this is the start to a great run to the finish line.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haggard01 View Post
    Any different from in just the last episode Laurel said she still loved Oliver. Also she loved both Tommy and Oliver.

    I don't recall one single thing showing how toxic they where in this episode unless it's just you have a problem with Oliver/Laurel in general. Which judging from your other posts of loving Felicty Smoak and Olicity, I would say your an Olicty shipper that really doesn't like Oliver/Laurel due to they are a threat to Olicty. The woman is dead and it still never ends.

    The reason why I like flashback Laurel is you saw how supportive she was of Oliver? How she wanted both of them to work on saving the city together? That is what could have been, that's what the show could have been on Oliver and laurel having their series romance overall. Instead the showrunners due to choice have killed off everyone important to Oliver's life outside of Thea, all to prop up their two OC's of Diggle and Felicty. Which don't even get me started on how Felicty's supporting cast has grown while Oliver has none.

    Her flashback severed a point of Oliver now has to move on with out her and he still loved her like in season 1. That didn't die, Oliver just buried it.

    Yes I know the flashbacks ended on Laurel but I was focusing on a point to be made on Oliver's end.
    Oliver gave back the picture of Laurel that he'd carried around as a symbol of the life he'd left behind and all that he'd loved. He came back hoping to get it back, that love but by the time he left, he realized that no, he wasn't the person Laurel needed. And he left and never tried to rekindle that romantic love again. I didn't see him burying his love but recognizing it for the old fantasy that is was. Why do I say that?

    This episode proved more than any thing that the showrunners have chosen to do this and not what could have been with Oliver and Laurel.
    I say that Oliver finally woke up to the fact that what he'd hoped to have with Laurel was an old fantasy because in order for them to have written Oliver and Laurel well and close and planning a future, they had to ignore the past.

    Could the show have gone a different way from the start? Yes. Did they? No.

    This scene showing off how well they could write Oliver and Laurel first required the show and the characters to ignore pretty much everything that was going on at that time. Oliver at first is battling guilt but he sets it aside to sit with Laurel and suddenly neither of them display hang ups about being together which is contrary to everything we know about them during and after the fact. In the show during the initial run, we saw deep remorse and regret over what happened with Tommy actually destroyed their chance at ever being together. With that between them, the idea of being together was anathema.

    Laurel discovered too late that Tommy was who she really loved. Oliver too had just been the fantasy. Least that's what the whole addiction sure seemed about.

    Instead in order to have a well written scene where they were one step from partners for life we have a Laurel that's happy to have Oliver and doesn't show any regrets or even grief that Tommy died saving her life fully in love still despite knowing all his worst fears about her had been realized. None of that is reflected.

    The cozy scene by the fire showing how well they could write Oliver and Laurel required Oliver to have already shucked off his PTSD and after only a week casually sit around and easily talk about his ex best friend that died thinking he was not much more than a common murderer. Who Oliver thought he lied to on his deathbed about killing his father. But here? No conflict.

    It required the show to forget that Oliver is still lying to Laurel about everything that matters about him or that Laurel doesn't know who he is, what he does, or will continue to do.

    In order to have this good interaction the show had to suspend the characters from acting in character based on the show's history for them. All stuff that happened in year one, the blessed golden age I hear so much about.

    But yes, it's true, had the show completely written both these character thinking and acting in a manner that had no resemblance to all that, then sure, it was super easy.

    As it was, they had Laurel say one thing about them building a future together and Oliver AGAIN decided he needed to leave.

    I wanted to make those scenes work so I told myself that Laurel is in shock and denial and is fixating on Oliver in order not to face the grief we saw and heard so much about in season two but that just underscores how unreal this interlude really was in the general context of this show.
    Last edited by BkWurm1; 04-28-2016 at 12:11 AM.

  5. #20
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    Aside from a couple of people acting their socks off, this episode was a frustrating jumbled mess with a couple of annoying retcons. Of course, when a character is killed off randomly and senselessly, it's hard to expect the follow up to be any better.

    - On the positive side, I thought Paul Blackthorne was magnificent today. The way Quentin dealt with Laurel's death was so tragic and sad and Paul may have delivered his best performance ever on the show. His last scene with Oliver in particular was heartbreaking. I was also relieved not to see Donna in this episode, "comforting" Quentin. She had no business in it. Dinah's appearance was way too short though.

    - On a similar note, David Ramsey was also fantastic. Diggle has a right to feel guilty as hell (despite what Oliver and Felicity told him) and Ramsey portrayed that very well. I'd lie if I said I was interested to see where Diggle goes from here. Despite Ramsey's best efforts, the character is a mess right now.

    - The Black Canary moniker dying with Laurel was the best way to go about things. Hopefully they won't have Sara or Evelyn popping up as the BC in the future.

    - Felicity trying to make Laurel's death about her was hilarious, more than anything. She's such a caricature of her old self these days.

    - It's hard to sum up Oliver in this episode. I didn't expect him to be heartbroken over Laurel because, lets face it, nothing can jeopardize the epic Olicity connection. It's the same reason why he was hardly shaken up when Sara died. So we get to see him act as the voice of reason and the light for everyone else. Nothing wrong with that of course until the final scenes, where he declares he wants to kill Darhk. Great. They are just retconning themselves within the same episode now. I really liked his speech over Laurel's grave though.

    - The sonic device was programmed only for Laurel, but somehow a 16 year old could reconfigure it?

    - I didn't get what was the point of the flashbacks. At all. Were they supposed to honor Laurel? Because they felt more like a "lets dump on Laurel" tribute. For one thing, Laurel did not get over Tommy's death that quickly. The season 2 premiere hinted at such. Why would they retcon something like this, if not to soil on Tommy and Laurel's memory? On top of that, those flashbacks end in misery and don't do any justice to her character. Again, why? Since Alex Kingston was in this episode, the flashbacks should have been about Laurel, Quentin and Dinah. Quentin said that Laurel was his rock. Show that then, for crying out loud.

    - I want to like Ruve Darhk (as well as her husband), but their arc is so random and head scratching right now. For example, the vigilantes are a thorn in their side, right? But now the Darhk's know the vigilantes' identities. So why doesn't Ruve use her resources as mayor to have Oliver, Felicity, Thea and Diggle arrested? Instead, she goes after the masks as if she doesn't know who's under them. At the same time, we have 4 episodes left in the season and we still don't have a clue what Genesis is about. In next week's promo, Darhk talks about them being in the final stage. So when did the previous ones happen?

    - They kept Barry's superspeeding in this episode? Way to preserve the continuity within the Flarrowverse.

    5/10. Should have been 3, but it gets 2 extra points for Blackthorne and Ramsey's work.
    Last edited by costas22; 04-28-2016 at 02:25 AM.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by 134sc View Post
    Haven't read anything on the internet so I don't know how the masses feel about the episode, but for me, this was the best episode in a very long time. Everything was executed very well. The acting, the dialogue, and the story was great. Hopefully this is the start to a great run to the finish line.
    Nope. Donna Smoak, and Calculator will take over the rest of the episodes.

    Garbage episode imo.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    - They kept Barry's superspeeding in this episode? Way to preserve the continuity within the Flarrowverse.
    I thought that was weird too. They should have just cut the scene or re did it. Right now I'm going to wait and see what happens on The Flash next week. If he gets his speed back then I'm going to assume that the events that happened during that episode happened during Canary Cry.

  8. #23
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    I don't believe for a second that Laurel dying was a random, last minute decision, nor was it a senseless killing. Laurel's been on a glide path for the grave since season 3, it was just a question of when the writers would pull the trigger. Season 4 has been a buildup for the Batman "Death In The Family" storyline all along, and yes they lied when they said they had no idea who they were going to kill. Darhk/Joker can't play out the story without a Black Canary/Robin to kill, so this was planned out at the end of season 3. Oliver staring at the Jason Todd, sorry Black Canary costume in it's glass case is all the proof you need.

  9. #24
    Hopeless Forum Addict Halberdier17's Avatar
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    Where's Superboy Prime when you need him.

    That is actually how Jason Todd originally came back because Superboy Prime punched the source wall which made some changes one example being Jason Todd came back to life. He still died in that continuity.

    Other later comics and Under the Red Hood movie changed it to him coming back from the Lazarus Pit but that is destroyed in this continuity unless they find a separate pit.

  10. #25
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smllvllfn View Post
    I thought that was weird too. They should have just cut the scene or re did it. Right now I'm going to wait and see what happens on The Flash next week. If he gets his speed back then I'm going to assume that the events that happened during that episode happened during Canary Cry.
    Exactly. They should have edited the scene somehow. Or just left it out, seeing as Oliver and Felicity just repeat the same dialogue in the limo. I find it funny that the showrunners retcon stuff left and right (hell just look at the Laurel flashbacks here), yet the one time they actually have to do it for the sake of the Berlantiverse, they decide they want to be consistent.

    As for Barry, I don't think anything in the upcoming episodes will tie with the graveyard scene of this episode. [SPOILER]Next week he's still powerless and decides to replicate the accident that gave him his speed. And something will probably go wrong and he will wind up going m.i.a. for episode 2.21. The first opportunity The Flash will have to address Laurel's death will probably be episode 2.22, when Earth 2 Laurel appears.

    In all likelyhood, Barry attended Laurel's funeral before he gave Zoom his speed.
    [/SPOILER]

  11. #26
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    The flashbacks did confuse me because they contradicted the beginning of season 2. It was never flat out said, but it was implied that Oliver went back to the island right after the season 1 finale. I would have liked to see flashbacks of Laurel and Captain Lance instead.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carmine-Infantino View Post
    I don't believe for a second that Laurel dying was a random, last minute decision, nor was it a senseless killing. Laurel's been on a glide path for the grave since season 3, it was just a question of when the writers would pull the trigger. Season 4 has been a buildup for the Batman "Death In The Family" storyline all along, and yes they lied when they said they had no idea who they were going to kill. Darhk/Joker can't play out the story without a Black Canary/Robin to kill, so this was planned out at the end of season 3. Oliver staring at the Jason Todd, sorry Black Canary costume in it's glass case is all the proof you need.
    I'm sorry, but it couldn't be more clear that this was cobbled together at the very last minute. None of the ducks even appeared until a few episodes prior, then BAM, suddenly they've captured Darkh, suddenly Laurel has some kind of storyline in an episode, suddenly Quentin betraying Darkh matters to the show, suddenly the totem is right there and is put back together for no reason, suddenly Malcolm is helping Darkh, suddenly Darkh knows Black Canary is Quentin's daughter and suddenly Andy is completely evil. We're now almost completely back at square one with everything that we were at before Darkh kidnapped Oliver's son, with the exception of Andy being evil and the team being short one character that only is really cared about by 2 character's on the show, making this entire situation a pointless brief interlude that just burned time from the show. The death in the family storyline doesn't even apply because the Joker is a legitimate threat and any Robin is basically Batman's son. Laurel is Oliver's ex that he was friendly with recently, but only tolerated the existence of most of the time. Have a very great day!

    God bless you! God bless everyone!

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagenspear View Post
    I'm sorry, but it couldn't be more clear that this was cobbled together at the very last minute. None of the ducks even appeared until a few episodes prior, then BAM, suddenly they've captured Darkh, suddenly Laurel has some kind of storyline in an episode, suddenly Quentin betraying Darkh matters to the show, suddenly the totem is right there and is put back together for no reason, suddenly Malcolm is helping Darkh, suddenly Darkh knows Black Canary is Quentin's daughter and suddenly Andy is completely evil. We're now almost completely back at square one with everything that we were at before Darkh kidnapped Oliver's son, with the exception of Andy being evil and the team being short one character that only is really cared about by 2 character's on the show, making this entire situation a pointless brief interlude that just burned time from the show. The death in the family storyline doesn't even apply because the Joker is a legitimate threat and any Robin is basically Batman's son. Laurel is Oliver's ex that he was friendly with recently, but only tolerated the existence of most of the time. Have a very great day!

    God bless you! God bless everyone!
    I completely disagree with ever point you just made. Just because the writers made a sloppy mess of things doesn't mean that they weren't working towards a predetermined outcome. The writers clearly wanted Laurel gone ever since the rise of Olicity. Arrow always takes it's story cues from Batman stories, and is as much a Batman adaptation as it is a Green Arrow adaptation.

  14. #29
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    Over night ratings are in and Arrow pulled in 2.28 million viewers and the demos were 0.9/3 up from the last episode. It doesn't look like killing Laurel is going to have an affect on ratings.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carmine-Infantino View Post
    I completely disagree with ever point you just made. Just because the writers made a sloppy mess of things doesn't mean that they weren't working towards a predetermined outcome. The writers clearly wanted Laurel gone ever since the rise of Olicity. Arrow always takes it's story cues from Batman stories, and is as much a Batman adaptation as it is a Green Arrow adaptation.
    Them knowing and doing it this badly just makes it more poorly written. It doesn't apply, because the meaning is gone. It doesn't take story cues. It hollows them out and tries to use them to cover themselves when it rains. Have a very great day!

    God bless you! God bless everyone!

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