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  • 10 - So good I could cry

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  • 5

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  • 4

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  • 1 - Crying becuase it was so bad

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  1. #1
    The artist formerly known as "KryptonSite" KSiteTV's Avatar
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    Loved It? Hated It? What did you think of "Canary Cry?"

    What did you think?

  2. #2
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    A look back on what could have been between Oliver and Dinah Laurel.

    Don't they realize all this can be fixed with Sara using the time machine to bring back Dinah Laurel?

    Unless this happens, this will likely be my last episode to watch for the time being.

  3. #3
    Forum Whiz Carmine-Infantino's Avatar
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    I thought it was quite good for a change. Diggle and Lance knocked it out of the park. The flashbacks with Laurel and Oliver were a bit creepy when you realize Tommy had only been dead for about ten minutes. The evil mayor seems like a good idea, hope they keep her around for season 5. I liked the new Black Canary, read an interview with MG that suggested she will be back next year.

  4. #4
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    I guess it was wrong to assume that Oliver left town right after the season 1 finale, but that seemed to be what was implied at the beginning of season 2. They really should have redone the scene at the end with Oliver and Barry since Barry currently doesn't have his speed.

  5. #5
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    Ok, for this episode I'd say it's more of like one hour attached to the fallout of last's week.

    So I will say it was an enjoyable hour in that regard and for what the status quo is now going to be I will say more next week.

    With Oliver deciding to revel Laurel's secret as The Black Canary that was well earned moment through out the episode and did make sense.

    I liked how Evelyn Sharp called The Green Arrow out on only being concerned about his friend and Oliver later admitting she's right. Now I'm not giving MG or his team credit because they deserve none and are not that smart. To say the least that line about how he only cares about his friends which for most of this season has translated into really only caring about one person. I'm not going there through about Felicity Smoak and that whole mess.

    Quentin gave a good performance, along with Diggle and Oliver are the stand outs in tonight's episode.

    A few big things that stood out to me in this.

    Through out the episode Oliver was like "This is my fault" and "Laurel wouldn't want us to kill" in reference to Darhk's wife but then some how at the end of the episode both of those are flipped for no reason. Oliver suddenly wants to kill when all episode showed no signs of wanting Darhk dead and is saying this isn't his fault. Like what the heck is going on? I don't think I missed anything.

    They made a big deal about how Laurel's sonic device should only be allowed for her and yet Elven was able to get into it but we never learned how.

    With the flashbacks, brings back a time of Arrow season 1. Just I have a hard time buying how Oliver and Laurel where in love with each other but yet suddenly in 2x01 act like they regret it.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by smllvllfn View Post
    I guess it was wrong to assume that Oliver left town right after the season 1 finale, but that seemed to be what was implied at the beginning of season 2. They really should have redone the scene at the end with Oliver and Barry since Barry currently doesn't have his speed.
    This episode takes place after next week's Flash episode and that's all I'm going to say.

  7. #7
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    I fully expected to hate this episode, and I guess in a way I do, though not for the reasons I suspected I would. No, I hate this episode because it showed us that they COULD write Laurel well, just as the last one did; they COULD write her as the Black Canary, as the love interest of Oliver Queen, as a hero in her own right, as EVERYTHING the BC stands for. But they CHOSE not to; they CHOSE to pander to a bunch of romance-addled little Twitterists and Tumblrinas and basically wrote out a character with a powerful, rich history so they could prop up the pain of their two OCs, John Diggle and Felicity Smoak. Oliver was perhaps the only one who wasn't going through the 'suffering of man-pain' thing this time around, and if ANYONE should its him; it was HIS arrow that was used as the weapon of death.

    Oliver and Quentin grew so much in this episode. But Oliver then flops backwards as soon as Felicity Smoak tells him he needs to kill Darhk.

    But I want to know how Evelyn got the Cry device to work. Wait, I bet she'll be a tech genius in her own right....

    So, I guess you could say I loved that the characters were actually themselves for the most part, but I hated this episode because it proved, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Guggenheim and his hacks CHOSE pandering over story. This episode and the last were two of the most powerful of the series, and that was because Katie Cassidy was finally allowed to show her range.

    I'll give it a 4. Not because it wasn't powerful, but because it showed what the show COULD have been but that the showrunners have CHOSEN not to do...

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haggard01 View Post
    This episode takes place after next week's Flash episode and that's all I'm going to say.
    It seems hard to tell the time lines for the episodes when they get close to the end of the season since both shows this week were on episode 19. Last year it made a little more sense when The Flash was a week behind Arrow.

  9. #9
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    A solidly acted episode. Gave it a nine because the actors made me care. Quentin's denial slayed me. Couldn't give it a ten because of a couple tonal problems and Baby Canary's story came with too many what the hell plot holes but the episode was otherwise well done allowing for some great character interaction and enough time to let the feelings breath.

    Bet Alex is questioning his decision to take Ruve's job offer instead of the position Thea was trying to get him to take.

    Both Oliver and Laurel seemed firmly in denial about the impact of Tommy's death during that fireside chat. How Laurel could go from saying she loved Tommy in every way to snuggling with Oliver while they planned their happily ever after leaves out all of the guilt and regret that we saw at the end of season one and the start of season two. Perhaps she'd already started self medicating? It was a nice scene otherwise with them remembering Tommy together.

    Something that just stood out to me that does bug. It's a pity that we didn't get a flash back with Laurel having a happy moment with her family. In the present everyone was morning her but no one was missing her more than Quentin but in the past, it was only Oliver and Laurel. Just another missed opportunity to milk the pain even more.

    There also was a tone shift problem at the end of the episode. We went from the uplifting inspiration of striving to live up to the heroic example of Laurel's Black Canary that wanted to help but would never consider killing to Oliver and Felicity bitterly vowing to kill DD. The emotions ring true, but the transition to them did not. Guess they both hit anger in their stage of grief.

    Now about Baby Canary, first off, after Laurel and Malcolm saved the rest of the team at Reddington, the POLICE showed up at the location of their kidnappers. Kidnappers that Oliver had seen kill people. You're telling me that no one searched the property or arrested anyone there?

    I assumed DD just got away and I assumed that once they opened the doors to the "volunteers" (so they would attack Team Arrow) a lot of them would have run off into hiding as well, so would then that mean that Evelyn actually DID get out at the same time that all the rest of them did? Which would mean that no, no one failed her family at Reddington.

    Otherwise, how did she escape? Where was she? And speaking of questions, how did the 16 year old tweak Cisco's tech to not only override it's restriction to Laurel's vocal chords but to majorly up it's power. And do it in the very short time between Laurel's death and when Baby C stopped the arms dealers. Like I said, plot holes galore.

    I really thought they'd tie her character to Nyssa or some other ninja cult rather than above average 16 year old girl with no resources. I'm sure she'll be back sometime in the future.
    Last edited by BkWurm1; 04-27-2016 at 08:53 PM.

  10. #10
    Hopeless Forum Addict Halberdier17's Avatar
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    So fake Black Canary was actually Starling from New 52 Birds of Prey.

    In that she is an old friend of Dinah Laurel Lance from their days of being under cover in Penguin's Iceberg Lounge.

  11. #11
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halberdier17 View Post
    So fake Black Canary was actually Starling from New 52 Birds of Prey.

    In that she is an old friend of Dinah Laurel Lance from their days of being under cover in Penguin's Iceberg Lounge.
    Thanks for the info. I wondered if she had any comic connection.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDBentz View Post
    I fully expected to hate this episode, and I guess in a way I do, though not for the reasons I suspected I would. No, I hate this episode because it showed us that they COULD write Laurel well, just as the last one did; they COULD write her as the Black Canary, as the love interest of Oliver Queen, as a hero in her own right, as EVERYTHING the BC stands for. But they CHOSE not to; they CHOSE to pander to a bunch of romance-addled little Twitterists and Tumblrinas and basically wrote out a character with a powerful, rich history so they could prop up the pain of their two OCs, John Diggle and Felicity Smoak. Oliver was perhaps the only one who wasn't going through the 'suffering of man-pain' thing this time around, and if ANYONE should its him; it was HIS arrow that was used as the weapon of death.

    Oliver and Quentin grew so much in this episode. But Oliver then flops backwards as soon as Felicity Smoak tells him he needs to kill Darhk.

    But I want to know how Evelyn got the Cry device to work. Wait, I bet she'll be a tech genius in her own right....

    So, I guess you could say I loved that the characters were actually themselves for the most part, but I hated this episode because it proved, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Guggenheim and his hacks CHOSE pandering over story. This episode and the last were two of the most powerful of the series, and that was because Katie Cassidy was finally allowed to show her range.

    I'll give it a 4. Not because it wasn't powerful, but because it showed what the show COULD have been but that the showrunners have CHOSEN not to do...
    A good way to sum it up.

    This episode proved more than any thing that the showrunners have chosen to do this and not what could have been with Oliver and Laurel.

    The finale flashback of the episode showing Oliver fly back to Lian Yu is very fitting since we know by now, the season 1 Oliver never returns having actually "died" on the island and what John Diggle and Felicty Smoak bring home is the version that we have in season 4. Meaning the useless version that has no problem flip flopping at Felicty's command.

  13. #13
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    I liked this episode in general and felt that it was a fitting conclusion for the Laurel/BC story arc on Arrow. The Lauriver flashbacks (set during the aftermath of Tommy's death in S1) were suitable in reinforcing the hero themes in the current timeline. Laurel went out as a hero, and while having a pretender aka "Teen" Canary threatening to tarnish her legacy might have been a bit too on the nose, Ollie giving Laurel the public recognition as BC was probably the best tribute he could have given her. She doesn't die as a nameless, masked vigilante. This gives her the sort of death-and-glory, dying for the cause ending that would be worthy of a superhero of BC's status. No one in the city can now deny that she was a hero.

    Diggle and Quentin had to both struggle with their own demons -- Quentin in trying to reconcile that even in this now-fantastical world full of magic and metas he can't bring Laurel back, and Diggle in trying to cope with the fallout of Andy's betrayal and how it's connected to what happened to Laurel.

    I'd also agree that this was more of a continuation of "11:49" and gave some necessary closure for primarily Ollie and Quentin. Diggle is sorely tempted to go down the same dark path that Ollie has, but Ollie now has the hindsight to know that he cannot allow Diggle to go there. Diggle will only find true closure once the Andy situation is handled.

    Thea did raise a good point about Ruve using Teen Canary's attack to blacken the BC name and that of Team Arrow, so Ollie's task is even harder now that the mayor herself is opposed to his brand of vigilantism. He'll have to take down Darhk while still trying to preserve BC's reputation and the legacy of a more just non-killing GA.

    I wouldn't have a problem seeing alternate Laurels or BC's on alternate earths or in different timelines only -- but here in this current Arrow timeline, the BC title was literally and figuratively laid to rest with Laurel's funeral. No one should take up her mantle, not Teen Canary, not any transplanted alternate earth Laurel/BC, not even Sara. If they truly intend to give Laurel an honourable death, they shouldn't cheapen it with any contrived replacements or magical/time travel do-overs or stunts. (This is different than if someone was inspired by Laurel's sacrifice to take up a vigilante identity or persona. Just not BC.)

    Ollie has already shown that he's not above going to that dark mind-space in order to get the job done (he dabbled in dropping bodies territory after Felicity's shooting), even if he's now supposedly "sunnier" in disposition as a hero. So, I don't necessarily see it as a deal breaker that GA is now contemplating killing Darhk. It's in his toolkit, we can't retcon that he's not a killer ... because he was. Arrow may borrow heavily from Batman at times, but Batman's no-killing code is not one of them. Bruce's own code is pretty rigid in comparison to Ollie's. It would be sensible for him to consider every option against a foe with supernatural powers who has proven to be cunning and difficult to defeat.

    The question to ask re: Ollie from S4 to S5 is if the brutality and killing becomes habitual or second nature like in S1, and not just as an option of last resort. The latter is unpalatable but at times necessary in his world, the former aka killing automatically would mean Ollie would revert to criminal status and make Roy's (and now, Laurel's) sacrifice meaningless. Basically Ollie will have to be able to flick the off-switch on killing mode after he has dealt with Darhk. It'll be a problem if he can't.

    If there was anything bittersweet about this ep., it was that it demonstrated that if they put their minds to it they can write Laurel well (I'm thinking not just this ep. and 11:49, but most of Laurel's S4 second half eps. leading up to this.) They chose not to or couldn't be bothered to -- for years -- and only now at her death do we get to see them make a decent effort at it.

    There were some glitches re: Arrow continuity out of sync with Flash (events must have happened just before Zoom took Barry's speed), as well as Teen Canary being able to use the sonic scream even though Cisco supposedly tailored it to Laurel's vocal chords (maybe his tech wasn't up to snuff?), but overall it was a pretty good episode.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haggard01 View Post
    A good way to sum it up.

    This episode proved more than any thing that the showrunners have chosen to do this and not what could have been with Oliver and Laurel.

    The finale flashback of the episode showing Oliver fly back to Lian Yu is very fitting since we know by now, the season 1 Oliver never returns having actually "died" on the island and what John Diggle and Felicty Smoak bring home is the version that we have in season 4. Meaning the useless version that has no problem flip flopping at Felicty's command.
    Wait you like flashbacks Laurel? The one that was ready to drop her panties and plan a future with Oliver while Tommy's grave was still freshed after she said she was in love with him with everything she had?

    Flashbacks crap on Laurel's character showed a woman with no self respect. Also showed how toxic Oliver and Laurel were. Worst way to honor her.

    Her flashbacks should have been about her family or the time she was defending the city while Oliver and Felicity were away.

    The flashbacks end when Oliver once again rejects her and runs away instead of staying to be with her.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superles View Post
    Wait you like flashbacks Laurel? The one that was ready to drop her panties and plan a future with Oliver while Tommy's grave was still freshed after she said she was in love with him with everything she had?

    Flashbacks crap on Laurel's character showed a woman with no self respect. Also showed how toxic Oliver and Laurel were. Worst way to honor her.

    Her flashbacks should have been about her family or the time she was defending the city while Oliver and Felicity were away.

    The flashbacks end when Oliver once again rejects her and runs away instead of staying to be with her.
    Any different from in just the last episode Laurel said she still loved Oliver. Also she loved both Tommy and Oliver.

    I don't recall one single thing showing how toxic they where in this episode unless it's just you have a problem with Oliver/Laurel in general. Which judging from your other posts of loving Felicty Smoak and Olicity, I would say your an Olicty shipper that really doesn't like Oliver/Laurel due to they are a threat to Olicty. The woman is dead and it still never ends.

    The reason why I like flashback Laurel is you saw how supportive she was of Oliver? How she wanted both of them to work on saving the city together? That is what could have been, that's what the show could have been on Oliver and laurel having their series romance overall. Instead the showrunners due to choice have killed off everyone important to Oliver's life outside of Thea, all to prop up their two OC's of Diggle and Felicty. Which don't even get me started on how Felicty's supporting cast has grown while Oliver has none.

    Her flashback severed a point of Oliver now has to move on with out her and he still loved her like in season 1. That didn't die, Oliver just buried it.

    Yes I know the flashbacks ended on Laurel but I was focusing on a point to be made on Oliver's end.
    Last edited by Haggard01; 04-27-2016 at 10:31 PM.

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