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  • 10 - So good that I hope we get a Vixen series

    5 27.78%
  • 9

    2 11.11%
  • 8

    3 16.67%
  • 7

    2 11.11%
  • 6

    0 0%
  • 5

    2 11.11%
  • 4

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  • 3

    2 11.11%
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  • 1 - That was it?!?

    2 11.11%
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  1. #16
    Posting Pro Raissa's Avatar
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    I loved Darhk. I'm going to miss NM when this arc has played out. Vixen rocked and I want her on Legends with Constantine and Nyssa.

    The rest of the ep. played out as well as it was going to. Olicity is why I don't like relationship driven drama generally. All of these couples are built to cyclicly fail, because the narratives are about the drama and not the relationships. I have no incentive to care, so nine times out of ten, I don't bother. As for the Arrow couples, Diig and Lyla work, because Lyla was right beside him when Diggle acquired a lot of his baggage, literally. So, she flat out gets where his dysfunctional behaviors come from and vice versa. Oliver and Felicity lack that compatibility as a starting point. Oliver, Sarah, and Nyssa have that compatibility. Felicity and Ray have that compatibility. Oliver and Felicity don't, so of course, Oliver and Felicity are who we get. It's pathetically lazy.

  2. #17
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    I know it wouldn't have been the easiest conversation, but really what was the point of keeping the secret from Felicity once Oliver found out Malcolm knew. I think that's one thing that bothered her the most that so many people knew. The ending with her just walking away was odd.

  3. #18
    Forum Whiz TheSecretVampire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagenspear View Post
    They work together in their life, not his son's. Him having a son doesn't change a situation or his personality. It's him, knowledge of his son or not. She has no say in what happens to his son and she shouldn't. Maybe the truth is she's now realizing that Oliver hasn't changed, but that's been pretty much labeled in several parts of the season. He lied to Thea until he was forced not to. He lied to Laurel until she found out. The difference with this is that those lies were about things that effected their lives.

    God bless you! God bless everyone!

    Not to mention, it was only last week when Felicity convinced her mother not to break up with Lance, quoting how some lies are necessary to protect the ones you love. Fast forward to this week and my, how the tables have turned. I guess Felicity can do no wrong, even if the writing for her twirls things around to her favor and not in her favor.

  4. #19
    Hopeless Forum Addict Halberdier17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halberdier17 View Post
    Laurel and Mari probably met off camera or possibly in Season 2 of Vixen they are probably writing that and if it is like Season 1 it wouldn't take place in real time. Maybe it takes place earlier in Season 4 of Arrow than last season which took place around episode 16 of Arrow Season 3.
    Marc Guggenheim said we will find out in Vixen Season 2.

  5. #20
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    I enjoyed this episode, with the added bonus of new DC character Vixen on Ollie's speed dial. Doesn't hurt to have another magically attuned hero on-call.

    -This is Malcolm's graduation year as the series alpha-villain. They've been setting the stage for it over several episodes. He's been there since the beginning -- it's only fitting that Ollie and Malcolm would go head-to-head in S5. While Team Arrow deals with battle to battle, Malcolm is in it for the long haul. I think his telling Darhk about Ollie's son is likely the one thing he shouldn't have done if there was any hope of him remaining a "frenemy" or at the very least as someone who wouldn't meddle in team business. This is out the window as of this episode, and as a viewer I'm glad the Dark Archer is returning to form.

    -Action sequences were pretty fun, and it was cool to see BC out on a bike in the field. They would have been outmatched if not for Vixen's help.

    -It made sense that, even if Laurel is no longer with Ollie, the revelation that he had a kid with someone he was cheating on her with would be unsettling to say the least. The sting of that betrayal wouldn't fade esp. with the other woman right in front of her. Good on Samantha for owning up to it.

    -Quentin. Classic Quentin and his line about armies of little Oliver's running around. Say what you will about Ollie being a different person now, he's not the same etc. -- back when he was a trust fund playboy he was a d-bag. There's no retconning around that fact. His lying as a default response is an unfortunate habit from those days.

    -Both Diggle and Vixen had valid points on parenthood, what is best for William etc. I couldn't really disagree with either of them. Barry might have issue with Ollie not being in William's life, but this speaks more to Barry's own issues with not having his dad around in his youth.

    -We all knew the moment the truth leaked out, the Olicity fallout would dominate whatever ep. it happened to be in. The only things that surprised me was how soon it happened, I figured they'd let it simmer a few more eps. I think it's too easy to be fixated on how many people found out the truth ahead of Felicity, and I'd argue that with the exception of maybe Barry, they were all lied to until he could not deny the truth to them. Best case scenario would have been if Ollie had told her the moment he found out Malcolm knew about William -- at that point, Ollie could not pretend that he was capable of keeping it a secret in the way Samantha wanted. Even if he didn't give one whit that his own fiancee should know that he had a kid out there (another issue altogether), he did need to tell Felicity and/or people on his team so they could prepare for potential dangers. He probably should have told Thea and Alex just on campaign strategy reasons alone. But all this would be too sensible.

    Barry found out before Ollie ever got his visitation ultimatum, Thea found out on her own -- Ollie only admitting it to her when he could not deny it in front of her evidence, Malcolm found out as Ra's Al Ghul, and DD found out via Malcolm. I'm in the camp that thinks a lie of omission is the same as outright telling a lie, but for those who don't view concealing a truth as lying -- Barry was technically the only one he "told", while everyone else found out independently of Ollie telling them 'hey, I have a son'. If he did tell them, it was only after the truth was forced upon him and denial was impossible. It would be stretch to say he actually "confided" in any of them about William, he spilled the beans when those beans were already spilled.

    I think Ollie's time to process was rapidly approaching its best before due date and, with all the truth leaks re: his son out there, he needed to keep her in the loop sooner rather than later, at minimum. Even if we don't think his fiancee has no say in his decision re: his role in his son's life (she may not have any veto powers on it -- William's parents alone have that -- she at least deserved some courtesy in giving her two cents on the matter as his future wife, if we assume she would also have some part in William's life going forward), she probably needed to be in the loop as a team member re: William's future safety, impact on the mission etc.

    Ultimately, I sympathize with both of them. The final scene was handled well, and while I get that Felicity didn't appear to have much to say (she may have more to say on it in future eps.) it basically confirmed that she held onto her timeline 1 perspective that Ollie's lying/concealing the truth was a trust issue, her words were almost verbatim. From her perspective, he couldn't trust her with knowledge of William (he picked access to William over Felicity knowing about it) and he appears he also kept her out of the loop when he decided to let William and Samantha disappear from his life for their own safety.

    I don't see it as Ollie needing Felicity's permission so much as keeping her in the loop or even discussing it with her. He could make his own call even if she was 100% against it, but if that ring meant anything to him he at least could have had a 'I'm thinking of not ruining my son's childhood by being associated in any way with the GA legacy' type of chat with her prior to making the decision. It's not asking if it's okay with her, it's giving her a heads-up or even seeking some input about it. It appears that Ollie made that call on his own, getting no input from anyone -- Felicity, Thea, etc.

    I'm not surprised all of this would cost them the engagement, only a bit surprised that it happened literally right after Ollie recorded his life-changing video for his son whom he may never see again. If she had yanked that ring off in the Arrowcave during the Darhk crisis that would be likely unforgivable. She did wait until the crisis had passed -- which was more sense than either of them demonstrated in timeline 1 when the world was about to end.

    Death of Olicity? As much as I'm not a fan of excess melodrama, I would only go so far as to say that Olicity as it has existed since, say, late S2-to-now (the shipper pleasing phase) is dead. There's no going back to the idealized bliss of the S4 premiere. Olicity post-Taken will become something else, evolve into something else: a more wary and even jaded phase. Maybe even more realistic. Right now the engagement is off and Felicity wants a break.

    To protect his son, Ollie may have chosen the only viable option -- putting as much distance between him and his son. He could never be the father Diggle is to Sara, to be there every night and always certain of her security. William deserves a stable father figure, which Ollie had the sense to know he cannot offer at this point. The sort of fatherhood Diggle and Barry envision is something that is not possible from Ollie, right now. Of course there will be a cost for not being in his life -- but it's one of those greater good things. Malcolm alluded to it in his warped way -- it's better to have a living child that hates you than a dead child who loved you.

    Ollie's thinking is that William may grow to like him, love him or despise him -- but at least he'd be alive to do so in exile. On the flip side, he could be the present father that Diggle alluded to -- William could know him and grow to love him, but die by the hand of a GA enemy within a year or two.

    Is it better to have his son know that he loved him and was there for him, even if he dies soon as a result of his dad's mission? Or that the son grows to hate an absentee father -- but is out of danger and alive to do so? This is the dilemma Ollie found himself in, with no clear straight-forward answer.

  6. #21
    Site Groupie SteelyGal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    Action sequences were pretty fun, and it was cool to see BC out on a bike in the field. They would have been outmatched if not for Vixen's help.
    Enjoyed the bike seen; brought back good memories form episode one. Also, enjoyed Vixen especially her smashing the idol.


    -It made sense that, even if Laurel is no longer with Ollie, the revelation that he had a kid with someone he was cheating on her with would be unsettling to say the least. The sting of that betrayal wouldn't fade esp. with the other woman right in front of her. Good on Samantha for owning up to it.

    Agree. I don't think her emotions where about any latent feelings of love for Oliver but how his betrayal still brings her pain.


    -Quentin. Classic Quentin and his line about armies of little Oliver's running around. Say what you will about Ollie being a different person now, he's not the same etc. -- back when he was a trust fund playboy he was a d-bag. There's no retconning around that fact. His lying as a default response is an unfortunate habit from those days.
    Loved the Laurel and Quentin scenes. After everything they have gone through, it is good to see them have a strong and loving father/daughter bond.


    Death of Olicity? As much as I'm not a fan of excess melodrama, I would only go so far as to say that Olicity as it has existed since, say, late S2-to-now (the shipper pleasing phase) is dead. There's no going back to the idealized bliss of the S4 premiere. Olicity post-Taken will become something else, evolve into something else: a more wary and even jaded phase. Maybe even more realistic. Right now the engagement is off and Felicity wants a break.

    If Olicity continues, it will be in a different form. Hopefully, there won't be any melodrama and she stays on the team. Maybe spending less time with Oliver means her character will spend more time with the other characters on the show.

  7. #22
    Forum Regular Arrow_47's Avatar
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    When it comes to the Olicity drama, I can honestly say I felt last night's episode was written by a 9th grader, or possibly a 9th grader who should be in 10th grade but failed a semester. Too bad Felicity is not the one in the grave. Is it too late to have E2 Felicity in the limo?

  8. #23
    Site Groupie Shelby Kent's Avatar
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    Felicity's exit from her wheelchair was one of the funniest scenes I've seen in a long time. Especially how it seemed like almost mid-sentence she had that foot twitch and then she was outta there! You would have thought she was a TV news anchor and they had to cut away to get to a commercial, the way they just rushed into that event. Though I do think she at least got to finish her sentence, so there is that. And the lack of impairment from anything like muscle atrophy, as was obvious from how well she moved, was completely consistent with the poor quality of the whole paralysis storyline execution overall. Kudos to them for maintaining a consistently low quality storyline all the way through; continuity like that is so important

  9. #24
    Forum Regular Arrow_47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Kent View Post
    Felicity's exit from her wheelchair was one of the funniest scenes I've seen in a long time. Especially how it seemed like almost mid-sentence she had that foot twitch and then she was outta there! You would have thought she was a TV news anchor and they had to cut away to get to a commercial, the way they just rushed into that event. Though I do think she at least got to finish her sentence, so there is that. And the lack of impairment from anything like muscle atrophy, as was obvious from how well she moved, was completely consistent with the poor quality of the whole paralysis storyline execution overall. Kudos to them for maintaining a consistently low quality storyline all the way through; continuity like that is so important
    Well said!

  10. #25
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    WOW! Oliver decided not to be a part of William's life, Felicity got upset that she wasn't included in some way with Oliver's decision and she got out of the wheelchair as if she wasn't sitting there longer than a couple of hours. Didn't see any of that coming at all.
    Of course they had Felicity take a moment to lean against the pillar in the room to showcase how unsure her footing is and how unsteady she is after her 2 hours of sitting in the wheelchair, so we should give them SOME props for that.
    Same argument as in timeline 1 during the Flash crossover with the only difference being they've matured enough to finish the mission first before having the discussion, props for the extremely well developed character maturity.
    Sorry but the fight scenes, while nice to watch, weren't very well executed and the heavy rain at the end? What was that for since Oliver and Mia stayed dry the entire time in the middle of the street? Storywise it wasn't a bad episode but the execution was sub par on just about every level. There were moments that were done well, Laurel and Quentin talking about Samantha for example, but overall even the dialogue didn't shine as being something to showcase to anyone but high school students.
    Last edited by DoubleDevil; 02-26-2016 at 03:37 AM.

  11. #26
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    and the heavy rain at the end? What was that for since Oliver and Mia stayed dry the entire time in the middle of the street?
    I noticed that as well. Same thing happened on this week's Flash. Pouring rain but not a drop on Barry or Diggle.

    I don't think it was scripted, just raining on location.
    Last edited by BkWurm1; 02-26-2016 at 08:26 PM.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    I noticed that as well. Same thing happened on this week's Flash. Pouring rain but not a drop on Barry or Diggle.

    I don't think it was scripted, just raining on location.
    Then either the actors need to know their lines so it gets done in as few takes as possible before they're drenching wet (even what they put together was from multiple takes as seen by the different amount of rainfall coming down, lighter rain while focused on Oliver while stronger rain when focused on Mia I believe) or they roof off a larger section of the set instead of just the crew and actors. Looked like an extremely cheap production.
    Last edited by DoubleDevil; 02-26-2016 at 09:43 PM.

  13. #28
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    So William wouldn't see that message until his 18th Birthday.
    It occurred to me to finally ask how William will ever get the message to finally see it on his 18th birthday if Oliver plans on having zero contact with them? Sending them off without any real means of hiding their identity other than Oliver promising not to Google them is absurd and foolish since no one else has made that promise. But then, Oliver is known for dumb, reactionary decisions.

    Yeah I hope they never put Felicity and Oliver together ever again, unless she does some really good groveling to Oliver, she was in the wrong not Oliver. What she lie and keep secrets, but he can't sorry that is a double standard. She never lets Oliver give her all of the facts before giving her judgement on him. She is a very judgemental, hypocritical, self rightgious and its all about her. She always finds some way to twist every decision Oliver makes that she doesn't like to some how be about her in the end. I really don't like her as a character so far, everyone else can understand his decision about william but she can't. Because in the end what made her mad was that Oliver chose his son over her, which is how it should be and if she can't accept that then she doesn't need to be with Oliver.
    Everyone else seemingly understanding his decision was just the writers forcing the other characters to drink the Kool-Aid. He is given a completely unenforceable ultimatum to either never let anyone know William is his son or never see his son. He wants to see his son, so he agrees to her demands and sees his son. But he didn't owe his loyalty to this woman who he had a one night stand with - who knowingly cheated with him on one of her friends - who lied and kept him from ever knowing his son.

    There was no reason in the world that a man that lies everyday to everyone but his closest associates would feel he had no choice but to keep a promise that if he was at all in a place where he could go public, the law would prevent Baby Mama from ever even carrying out her threats. He choose to not tell anyone - specifically Felicity - because it was the path of least resistance. He didn't chose his son over Felicity, he chose Samantha's ultimatum. One she had no way of ever enforcing or knowing when he broke his promise, a promise that he'd already broke before he ever agreed to her terms. He was already lying to her. Barry knew. Samantha's purpose was so that NO ONE knew.

    Felicity was the only character that was allowed to see through the weak reasoning behind Oliver keeping his "promise". The audience is also allowed to see through it as well, but it seems to me a lot of viewers choose not to.

    Oliver spun it as a way to keep William safe (which was a retcon) but even if we accept it as a real reason behind not telling anyone, then that means he doesn't trust the people closest to him. Worse, he trusted Malcolm fricken Merlyn over them. Some say he didn't technically tell the ones that found out. Well Samantha didn't see it that way. The promise she thought she extracted was that no one would ever know. Anyone knowing for any reason was already a break of promise.

    Oliver did what he thought he had to do (or what seemed easiest) and for people that aren't supposed to be in his utmost inner circle about his most personal parts of his life, they have the freedom to let it go. Not letting close friends know or even siblings know is a different thing than not telling the person you have promised to share your life with. And what their marriage was supposed to be was spelled out to Oliver. It was supposed to be a partnership, it was supposed to be a team within the team. And instead he lied to her.

    He was going to let her commit her life to him without knowing what she potentially was taking on. And all that she could accept and forgive but he shut her out and showed her he was still shutting her out. He betrayed her trust. He gave his supposed reasons but even they were a lie because he made exceptions for those he wanted to make exceptions for and somehow that didn't include the woman he was pledging to share his life with. They had his loyalty over her.

    Yes Oliver was sad about William but Felicity not being in a place where she could comfort him was Oliver's fault. He is the one that kept her away and continued to keep her away. He admitted he should have told her but then when the next gigantic decision popped up that would affect the rest of his life, he once again shut her out of even the conversation. He talked to Mari, a person he barely knows. But his fiancÚ? The person that begged him only a couple months back to open up to her so she could support him, no, she's still disrespected.

    Felicity has no reason to ask Oliver's forgiveness. She is the one that was the one lied to and betrayed and again, not so that he could see his kid or keep from lying - lying was part of the bargain and if he'd told Felicity, Samantha would never have know - no Oliver's betrayal came from thinking the one he needed to lie to was the one that had proved most trustworthy.

    I don't want Oliver to grovel. I want him to change. Until he changes, he's not ready to be in a serious relationship. He's trying, but he failed this time badly and the hurt that he caused was too much to ignore or look past. It wasn't a spur of the moment choice, but one that he doubled down on after months went by. He became untrustworthy.

    To expect Felicity to keep putting her feelings and pain aside to support the person that has caused her pain is disrespectful and demeaning. She spent days supporting Oliver. She comforted the woman that vindictively demanded Oliver suffer like she'd suffered (thus causing Felicity to suffer as well). She waited until William was safe and there was no longer any danger. And then all her patience rewarded her with was another example of Oliver excluding her from a life changing decision. What about her suffering? Oliver is the one that decided to put himself in a place that he had to suffer the loss of his son alone.

    Well, Oliver and MG and his contrived mess of a storyline. So long BabyMama and Son, your work here is done.
    Last edited by BkWurm1; 02-27-2016 at 03:46 PM.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    There was no reason in the world that a man that lies everyday to everyone but his closest associates would feel he had no choice but to keep a promise that if he was at all in a place where he could go public, the law would prevent Baby Mama from ever even carrying out her threats.
    The fact that Oliver can't bring lawyers in is exactly the reason he does have to concede to Samantha's demands. Even with how much the writers have dumbed down his character he could foresee what Dhark would do if the truth about William came to light, thus he is forced to come to an arrangement with Samantha, who has all the power and is able to set her terms, however, unreasonable.

    Sidenote - It just occurred to me mid-paragraph that maybe Samantha made her conditions so severe in the hopes that Oliver refuses to accept them and stays out of Williams life.

    Back to the topic: Oliver is a new and hopeful man; I would be surprised if he wasn't hopeful that the team would take Dhark off the board permanently. With Dhark gone I would think he goes back to Samantha and says the custody deal is not working for him and telling her that they need to redo the terms or he will bring lawyers in.

    Which scenario do you think will bring Oliver more favor from the judge; A) him having a history of failing to live up to custody agreements and trying to lie and hide things from the mother of his child or, B) Oliver having stuck to the agreement that was made in spite of its unfairness and in doing so bring pain and strife onto himself all in the interest of doing right by his kid.




    Let me clarify, the above is the head-canon that I have used to pacify myself. I do not in any way think, hope, or believe that the writers were trying to imply anything so mature or reasoned out.

    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    A promise that he'd already broke before he ever agreed to her terms. He was already lying to her. Barry knew. Samantha's purpose was so that NO ONE knew.

    Some say he didn't technically tell the ones that found out. Well Samantha didn't see it that way. The promise she thought she extracted was that no one would ever know. Anyone knowing for any reason was already a break of promise.

    No promises were broken, that is not relying on technicalities, it is outright fact.


    Samantha said don't tell anyone and Oliver didn't. He lied to Barry about the intent of the test and Barry guessed anyways, Thea found out with his help as did Malcolm.


    It doesn't really matter that Samantha sees it as a broken promise because she doesn't get to know how any of them found out and telling her wasn't really a good use of time, both in-show and onscreen.
    Last edited by Klaus1994; 02-27-2016 at 04:21 PM.

  15. #30
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    Bkwurm1: I got the impression that the scene showing William and Samantha's departure took place *after* Oliver had recorded his message and had the break-up with Felicity.

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