Loved It? Hated It? What did you think of "Taken?"

[BkWurm1]

Since you've retconned (or elaborated) your comment we'll go with that.

There is no retconning. This is what I wrote:

Oliver was a cheater but that's not who he is any more at all. It has nothing to do with his love for Felicity. Oliver was changed before he met her.

I said it had nothing to do with him being in love with Felicity and that he was a changed man before he met her. No retconning or even elaboration going on. Not sure why you want me to have said it was Felicity that changed him. Sorry, I don't believe that. I think we've seen the best proof of how much Oliver has changed in regards to not cheating with his relationship with Felicity but as you pointed out, it's the longest relationship they've shown for him of the show.

The flashbacks would go back to the relationships Oliver had before meeting Felicity and we have Shado and Taiana. Shado was pretty much the only woman on the island so who was Oliver going to cheat on her with? Slade? Doubtful Oliver could've gotten Sara back into bed when she arrived on the island so shortly after the Gambit sinking. Taiana I haven't seen anything leading me to believe they actually have a romantic relationship going on between the two of them, they might be sharing a bed but that isn't anything more than carnal lust anyway and really there's little reason to cheat on that.

Arrow isn't found footage. The show runners have created a clear delineation between when Oliver was a careless cheating child vs when he grew up and took responsibility for his actions.

As you pointed out, to this day they've reminded us how often pre-island Oliver cheated but they've written NOTHING to suggest that is who he is anymore. Pointing out that he didn't have many options supports the writers and the show runners lack of desire to include that old trait in the new Oliver Queen.

Dude's not perfect and he makes some huge mistakes still and is not done learning and growing, but the cheating thing isn't one of the things I think he still needs to work on.

[DoubleDevil]

There is no retconning. This is what I wrote:

I said it had nothing to do with him being in love with Felicity and that he was a changed man before he met her. No retconning or even elaboration going on. Not sure why you want me to have said it was Felicity that changed him. Sorry, I don't believe that. I think we've seen the best proof of how much Oliver has changed in regards to not cheating with his relationship with Felicity but as you pointed out, it's the longest relationship they've shown for him of the show.


Arrow isn't found footage. The show runners have created a clear delineation between when Oliver was a careless cheating child vs when he grew up and took responsibility for his actions.

As you pointed out, to this day they've reminded us how often pre-island Oliver cheated but they've written NOTHING to suggest that is who he is anymore. Pointing out that he didn't have many options supports the writers and the show runners lack of desire to include that old trait in the new Oliver Queen.

Dude's not perfect and he makes some huge mistakes still and is not done learning and growing, but the cheating thing isn't one of the things I think he still needs to work on.

If there's no retconning or elaboration then why bring up relationships Oliver had AFTER meeting Felicity? According to the flashbacks Oliver only had 1 relationship between the "Queen's Gambit" sinking and him meeting Felicity (Shado) and even without the two of them crossing paths in the flashbacks we've only seen Oliver in 2 relationships (if we can call Taiana a romantic relationship) before meeting Felicity in season 1 so there's no way we can know if he's a changed man or not as you claim. Oliver has been in two relationships that have lasted long enough to show him cheating, Sara and Felicity. With Sara the showrunners had Oliver's cheating on everybody's mind already just with the relationship itself and they wanted to show how much Oliver had matured since becoming shipwrecked by him now asking Sara to move in with him which pretty much ended the relationship and they couldn't have shown that growth in Oliver if they went with him cheating on her. With Felicity there was enough drama and angst in the relationship already without them bringing in his cheating so there hasn't been a reason to show it. I'm sorry but season 3 if Oliver had gone and found another girlfriend instead of "being faithful" then we wouldn't have had the angst and melodrama that we had and the reason Oliver fed Felicity for them not being together would've been a crock of BS that obviously he didn't believe either which wasn't the case. Oliver truly believed he couldn't have a normal life AND his vigilante life coexist. We could've had Oliver cheating on Felicity in season 4, the showrunners could've nicely laid that out and really delved in it BUT WAIT, we have BabyMama drama instead which once again brings forth mention that Oliver is (for you, was) a cheater. Absence of evidence doesn't mean that he has changed, it just means he hasn't demonstrated that trait in recent time, yet he has demonstrated other traits that were just as much a part of "pre-island" Oliver that he STILL has and are just as much a relationship killer (lying, arrogance, making bad decisions...). I'm saying the showrunners haven't SHOWN that Oliver is still a cheater because they haven't had a storyline to fit it in yet, not because he's a "changed man". I also think the lack of focus on romantic relationships, and therefore the lack of time to show Oliver still cheating (pre-Olicity), was because the showrunners didn't want "Arrow" to be "Oliver Queen-Love Story" and instead be "Oliver Queen-Origin Story of a Vigilante/Superhero". As I said before, if the showrunners have time (not time in a particular episode but if they have enough future seasons to work with) they will show Oliver Queen cheating again since they have gone to "Oliver Queen-Love Story" in season 3.

Mention of Oliver cheating is always brought up while Oliver is in a longer lasting relationship (Sara with Oliver cheating on Laurel with Sara and Felicity with Oliver cheating on Laurel with Samantha). I don't think that is to show Oliver is no longer a cheater, it would've sufficed to mention it once during Sara's relationship then drop it because that's no longer who he is, I think it's more a reminder for viewers "hey, don't forget he maybe in a happy relationship right now but this guy's a known cheater so there can be some major melodrama down the road" otherwise it's just boring repetition. And no, if Oliver were to "suddenly" cheat again it wouldn't be a relapse, it would be him being the man he has always been. A cheater cheats when s/he thinks they don't have the freedom to do what they want or missing out on something they could've had and that may occur after 2 weeks or after 10 years of "being faithful".

[BkWurm1]

I'm saying the showrunners haven't SHOWN that Oliver is still a cheater because they haven't had a storyline to fit it in yet, not because he's a "changed man".

And I'm saying if the show runners wanted to show that Oliver was still a cheater, then the show runners had four years to show it. They are the ones that make the storylines. If they viewed him as a still a cheater, then they would have made time to show it. Instead they have as you have pointed out again and again reminded the audience that when he was dating Laurel he was a serial cheater. Was, not is.

If anything, the constant reminder of his cheating ways while with Laurel is a reminder to the audience what connection he and Laurel even had.

I think it's more a reminder for viewers "hey, don't forget he maybe in a happy relationship right now but this guy's a known cheater so there can be some major melodrama down the road" otherwise it's just boring repetition

Or a reminder that Oliver while a different man now still has baggage from his past.

Oliver came back and pretended to still be a party boy, pretended to chase girls, pretended to get wasted and make a fool out of himself. All of that is in his past. He went through such extremes while away that he rebuilt the person he was. That's kind of the whole premise of the show.

And no, if Oliver were to "suddenly" cheat again it wouldn't be a relapse, it would be him being the man he has always been. A cheater cheats when s/he thinks they don't have the freedom to do what they want or missing out on something they could've had and that may occur after 2 weeks or after 10 years of "being faithful".

And a man that has grown up to face his responsibilities and take ownership of his actions and choices realizes they affect others and that it's up to him to make the hard choices rather than expect to gobble up everything that comes his way.

I seriously feel believing that Oliver Queen is just the same person as he was before the island means not understanding the character as all.

[DoubleDevil]

And I'm saying if the show runners wanted to show that Oliver was still a cheater, then the show runners had four years to show it. They are the ones that make the storylines. If they viewed him as a still a cheater, then they would have made time to show it. Instead they have as you have pointed out again and again reminded the audience that when he was dating Laurel he was a serial cheater. Was, not is.

If anything, the constant reminder of his cheating ways while with Laurel is a reminder to the audience what connection he and Laurel even had.

Or a reminder that Oliver while a different man now still has baggage from his past.

Oliver came back and pretended to still be a party boy, pretended to chase girls, pretended to get wasted and make a fool out of himself. All of that is in his past. He went through such extremes while away that he rebuilt the person he was. That's kind of the whole premise of the show.

And a man that has grown up to face his responsibilities and take ownership of his actions and choices realizes they affect others and that it's up to him to make the hard choices rather than expect to gobble up everything that comes his way.

I seriously feel believing that Oliver Queen is just the same person as he was before the island means not understanding the character as all.

I'll enjoy reading your posts of astonishment and disbelief if the show lives to get season 7-8.

There are character traits that can be changed and there are traits that seem to never change. A close friend is a cheater, always has been. He's changed quite a bit (wasn't a rich playboy but did go out partying and headed home with a girl on his arm nearly every time), he doesn't sleep with every woman he meets anymore but I still berate him for each of his affairs when he does slip up seeing he's been happily married for 10 years now. I don't have to do it often, twice in the 20 years he's known his wife, but I still have to do it to this day. Pre-island Oliver was an immature, spoiled brat and today's Oliver isn't, those are traits Oliver has changed yes. Oliver has basically grown up but cheating isn't an immaturity trait one grows out of like finally taking responsibility for ones actions or not going out partying every night and getting so drunk that you don't remember what happened, it's a mental state that becomes dormant until certain feelings and emotions are triggered to reactivate it. It's also not an addiction that can be kicked and into which one relapses, it's always present.

You're clever BkWurm1, ask MG why they continually bring up Oliver cheating on his girlfriends and if he's still a cheater then we'll all know what mindset the showrunners have on the topic. If you get an answer at all, he'll probably be extremely vague so as not to reveal a later relationship drama point they want to use in the show or he'll flat out say Oliver is no longer a cheater.

[BkWurm1]

Pre-island Oliver was an immature, spoiled brat and today's Oliver isn't, those are traits Oliver has changed yes. Oliver has basically grown up but cheating isn't an immaturity trait one grows out of like finally taking responsibility for ones actions or not going out partying every night and getting so drunk that you don't remember what happened, it's a mental state that becomes dormant until certain feelings and emotions are triggered to reactivate it. It's also not an addiction that can be kicked and into which one relapses, it's always present.

I see we simply fundamentally disagree about cheating and what was Oliver's motivation to cheat.

I do absolutely believe there are those that stop cheating with maturity but in Oliver's case it was so much more than just being forced to grow up. He lived with believing his cheating ways got Sara killed. That because he was too much a wimp to tell Laurel he didn't want to move in, he not only betrayed her fidelity, but brought about the death of her sister. And then in trying to save Sara, brought about the death of Shado which Oliver then saw as part of the reason Slade lost his mind and he lost his closest friend - not just lost, but was (he though) forced to kill him and Sara (he thought) ended up dying again after spending a year torturing men for Ivo. And Sara was so ashamed of who she'd become --and this is prior to the LoA - she wanted Oliver to tell her family she died on the Gambit.

For Oliver, cheating brought about some of the worst moments of his life. Just his reason for being on the Gambit was him running off with Sara behind Laurel's back. He had deep, traumatic experiences to teach him that cheating is what will destroy his and all the lives around him.

I do believe that what people do in their youth (and Ollie was very much still a boy) is not who they are destined to be. Not everyone will change, but many do and Oliver had far more reason to have learned the deep consequences of his actions and to not being willing to be that person ever again.

You're clever BkWurm1, ask MG why they continually bring up Oliver cheating on his girlfriends and if he's still a cheater then we'll all know what mindset the showrunners have on the topic. If you get an answer at all, he'll probably be extremely vague so as not to reveal a later relationship drama point they want to use in the show or he'll flat out say Oliver is no longer a cheater.

MG almost never answers anymore. He's too busy splitting his time between the show s and his comic projects, but it's not a question I am confused about. With Sara, his cheating was obvious. With BabyMama, again, his cheating was obvious and also previously documented. Laurel can do math. How was she not supposed to figure it out?

The bigger surprise to me was that they made Samantha one of Laurel's friends. They didn't have to do that to Laurel, but they made an icky situation just that much worse (and made Samantha look just that much more of a crap person. She's casting all these aspersions of character on Oliver when she was right there willingly cheating with him.)

They bring up his past as a cheater only in conjunction to the pain he caused in the past or as a contrast to who he is today. I don't find it confusing or suspect.

I'll enjoy reading your posts of astonishment and disbelief if the show lives to get season 7-8.

I personally don't think they'd have him cheat on anyone with the caveat of him being drugged or tricked (or he finds out his significant other is evil which IMO transcends the need for a break up text) but you are saying that even if he has a clean record of perfect fidelity for 13 years (5 on the island and 8 years of show) you still would assert he hadn't changed at all in his stance on cheating even though when he was with Laurel he was doing it constantly and frequently? You still wouldn't see any difference between his past behavior and his current behavior?

[DoubleDevil]

They bring up his past as a cheater only in conjunction to the pain he caused in the past or as a contrast to who he is today. I don't find it confusing or suspect.
I personally don't think they'd have him cheat on anyone with the caveat of him being drugged or tricked (or he finds out his significant other is evil which IMO transcends the need for a break up text) but you are saying that even if he has a clean record of perfect fidelity for 13 years (5 on the island and 8 years of show) you still would assert he hadn't changed at all in his stance on cheating even though when he was with Laurel he was doing it constantly and frequently? You still wouldn't see any difference between his past behavior and his current behavior?

No I wouldn't in regards to his cheating because what triggers a person to cheat doesn't have to remain the same. If I'm cheating because I fear a relationship (as Oliver clearly showed by running off with Sara because Laurel wanted them to live together) then I'll continue to cheat everytime I feel a relationship is getting to serious but if I can finally accept the "confines" of a relationship (which Oliver again showed when he asked Sara to move in together) then I won't cheat just because I'm in a relationship, I'll cheat because maybe my partner can't have children and I'm thinking maybe I want kids or maybe because I won't have to continually explain myself to my partner or maybe I'm having a mid-life crisis and I'm chasing my youth with a younger partner or any number of reasons why I think the grass would be greener on the otherside. Oliver acknowledged his cheating when the "Gambit" sank, I've said that already, but that doesn't mean Oliver is no longer a cheater. If anything it has just altered the reason for him to cheat. Cheating itself is a conscience act but what makes a cheater want to cheat is subconscious and I don't believe Oliver has changed that. Oliver's well known for making bad decisions when he thinks he's right (and his subconscious would be telling him he's right) and the conscience act of cheating is nothing more than a bad decision (very similar to Oliver getting in bed with Isabell) so why would modern Oliver cheating surprise anybody? Now if the show had shown us Oliver being tempted to have affairs with somebody while in a relationship and he continually turns such offers down, then I'd agree with you that he changed but simply not showing him having an affair (in some cases because there's nobody around to have an affair with) and "being faithful" (don't see how moping and pining after Laurel while in a relationship with Shado is "being faithful") doesn't convince me he's no longer a cheater.

[BkWurm1]

Not being tempted is meaningless, but wanting to cheat and deciding not to would mean he's not a cheater anymore? Yeah, agree to disagree.

[DoubleDevil]

Not being tempted is meaningless, but wanting to cheat and deciding not to would mean he's not a cheater anymore? Yeah, agree to disagree.

As far as a tv show is concerned, yes.

[Haggard01]

I just realized something that Felicty jumped down Oliver's throat for not including her in the choice to move William away but had no problem not including Oliver in the choice to jail her father.

[BkWurm1]

I just realized something that Felicty jumped down Oliver's throat for not including her in the choice to move William away but had no problem not including Oliver in the choice to jail her father.

I'm more inclined to be pissed that Oliver couldn't spare five minutes to be there for Felicity as she was dealing with her father, forcing her to go through it all on her own ( he couldn't even formally meet him??) BUT even though she was left alone to handle it all because he was totally focused on Thea, they did still manage to have a conversation about her options of letting him back into her life and giving him another chance. From their conversation she set up the test, which her father failed.

And then she let the authorities take him away.

All Felicity wanted was to be included in the conversation. Oliver was. That said, I don't find Felicity making a decision about letting her criminal father be arrested to be in the same category as her supposed future husband deciding he lives a life that is too dangerous for children to be a part of that life.

There was so many things wrong with that.

[DoubleDevil]

I'm more inclined to be pissed that Oliver couldn't spare five minutes to be there for Felicity as she was dealing with her father, forcing her to go through it all on her own ( he couldn't even formally meet him??) BUT even though she was left alone to handle it all because he was totally focused on Thea, they did still manage to have a conversation about her options of letting him back into her life and giving him another chance. From their conversation she set up the test, which her father failed.

And then she let the authorities take him away.

All Felicity wanted was to be included in the conversation. Oliver was. That said, I don't find Felicity making a decision about letting her criminal father be arrested to be in the same category as her supposed future husband deciding he lives a life that is too dangerous for children to be a part of that life.

There was so many things wrong with that.

We don't even know if Felicity WANTS Oliver to meet her dad, and you're pissed because he didn't take the time so even more time on Arrow would've been spent on Olicity?

[BkWurm1]

We don't even know if Felicity WANTS Oliver to meet her dad, and you're pissed because he didn't take the time so even more time on Arrow would've been spent on Olicity?

Mad at Oliver? Not really, Thea was dying, but with the show for putting something huge like Felicity's father showing up in the same episode as Thea dying and Nyssa and Malcolm going to war? Yeah, real pissed. The show runners teased and promised this for three years and though they had Donna in the same episode, there wasn't even a moment where her mother and father were in the same room. And sorry, but why is it unreasonable to expect Oliver as the Green Arrow to be concerned about Felicity palling around with the evil dude they'd been all fighting against just the day before? Instead her announcement that the guy that was trying to kill thousands in the city and had hired goons to kill the team (If need be) was wanting to spend time with her was met with the kind of reaction you'd expect from co-workers if you told them all the free donuts were eaten.

Let's also recall that Felicity is stuck in a wheelchair at this point. He may have been her father but he was a stranger that the day before wanted to destroy the city and as many as he could in the city. That doesn't earn her her fiancé as at least moral back up?

I've made my peace with the episode. Clearly Felicity did have it all under control and I suppose the team trusted that she did.

[DoubleDevil]

And quite honestly I prefer the showrunners cutting scenes like Oliver giving Felicity moral backup than cutting scenes from other characters that AREN'T Olicity relevant.

We might have been able to have another training scene for Laurel if the showrunners didn't think Oliver flipping a table because he saw Felicity and Ray kiss more important.

[BkWurm1]

Well the show does have its priorities.

[Haggard01]

Well the show does have its priorities.

That are for Olicty to just merely please a tiny following of Twitter/Tumbler.

I'd say they have their priorities in the wrong place. Then again I'm saying this to someone who is clearly bias for Olicty considering you never see her doing anything wrong, ever.