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  1. #31
    Idiot superhippie2000's Avatar
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    uhoh

  2. #32
    The Force is Strong!!! darkphoenix21's Avatar
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    So that's were Vixen comes in.

  3. #33
    Chatterbox Christian moviefan2k4's Avatar
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    I really enjoyed tonight's episode, and next week looks very promising. I loved them coming up with a solution for Felicity's injury, though I hope they draw it out a little with a believable recovery. This season really started off making me feel uncomfortable, with Damien Darkh's occultic crap...but thankfully, they've reduced that a lot since last fall. The ending really surprised me, though; why would Samantha entrust William to someone she's never met? Did Darkh kill her without William knowing, or what?

  4. #34
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    I liked this ep. too. It had little bit of everything: fun action sequences, Flashback Ollie taking another irreversible step towards his Hood persona, progress on the baby mama drama, and Thea being all sorts of amazing in this episode -- whether that was in the fight scenes, uncovering Ollie's secret son skeleton (it was after his campaign manager's job to get ahead of such things, so it makes sense they'd unravel it first).

    I really liked the action sequences in this ep., they looked well-executed and we got to see both Laurel and Thea do some one-on-one combat which is rare. They also did a bit of the "shaky cam" technique used in the Bourne movies and it worked in this ep.
    Last edited by President_Luthor; 02-18-2016 at 08:32 AM.

  5. #35
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
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    The less said the better. If Donna is going to get so much focus in an episode, they might want to re-evaluate what kind of show they are trying to do. Because it certainly didn't feel like Green Arrow's show. They couldn't even bother to show the actual debate. On top of that, the baby drama is starting to rear its ugly head back in the show. Yay. Felicity's paralysis storylines appears to be ending, but I never bothered getting invested. You just knew they would come up with an absurd explanation to have her walk again.

    Some decent work by James Bamford, but it wasn't enough to salvage this episode. 3/10.

  6. #36
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    Ok episode. There was way too much Donna in this episode. In fact there has been way too much Donna this season. She is the sort of character that works in small doses yet I can just imagine her becoming a season regular next season, with the writers probably trying to make her a Moira replacement. FYI, Moira can't be replaced.

    Besides Jimmy Akingbola, everyone's acting in the flashbacks is just abysmal. It doesn't seem like anyone even cares. I'm really starting to think though that the Russian lady is Bratva.

    Felicity in the wheelchair had the potential to be a very interesting, gritty storyline. But it looks like that isn't going to happen. Way too easy.

    Did like the Demolition Gang. They had a rather interesting assortment of weapons. Wouldn't mind seeing them again. Also quite like Damien's wife.

    It could also have been interesting to see the actual debate. But no, we get more Donna.

    It struck me that Oliver's campaign could have used Felicity in her wheelchair as a way of getting votes. It looks like that isn't going to happen though if Felicity is healed in the next couple of episodes.

    So Damien has William. This could be interesting.

  7. #37
    Site Groupie SteelyGal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    ...Felicity's paralysis storylines appears to be ending, but I never bothered getting invested. You just knew they would come up with an absurd explanation to have her walk again.
    This may be the ending of Felicity's paralysis but it is not the ending of this storyline. Once the chip is placed in her spinal column, I won't be surprised if we learn it gives her superhuman powers.

    She is already a super genius who can hack into any system within minutes, help build supersuits, and run a billionaire company without even sweating so she doesn't need any more off the charts abilities.
    Last edited by SteelyGal; 02-18-2016 at 07:30 PM.

  8. #38
    Posting Pro Raissa's Avatar
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    For those who don't know, Janet Kidder (Ruve Darhk) is the niece of Margot Kidder (Lois Lane). DC is the family legacy.

  9. #39
    Hopeless Forum Addict Halberdier17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raissa View Post
    For those who don't know, Janet Kidder (Ruve Darhk) is the niece of Margot Kidder (Lois Lane). DC is the family legacy.
    I didn't know that thanks for saying it.

  10. #40
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    I enjoyed this episode.

    Which ok I hit the fast forward button through most of Felicity/Donna scenes and Donna/Quentin scenes. Ok first to just get it out of the way I'm not at all surprised that Felicity is getting cured of being paralyzed. (I'm going to go more into in her character discussion thread.)

    Now the action was done very well. I can't even think of one scene with people fighting that wasn't done good from everything of Oliver firing arrows to Diggle hitting a guy in the head with a sledgehammer. Which let's face it that guy who Diggle wacked is dead.

    Also Oliver fighting Conklin in the past further proves that the reason why he fights weaker in the present day is from trying to embrace the light and be restrained.

    Damien Darhk I will say I get very Darth Vader vibes from him. I have no problem with that but I just hope they don't go so far out there is logically impossible for Team Arrow to stop him.

    Ruvé Adams yea she is a very good villain and I'm glad we are getting a more central female villain. Like should we say what Isabel could have been.

    With the both the Darhk's we need an answer soon of whether or not they know it's Oliver under the hood.

    For the whole Thea discovering William and her advice to Oliver. Ok first is it going to blow up in their faces and is wrong to do? Yep, totally but like Thea said Oliver being the Green Arrow paints a target on his back so he has to keep it a secret for his son's safety. Also but why can't he tell his friends and family? Well that means the circle gets bigger regardless of if they keep it. Oliver at his core is a highly skilled tactician which was shown for sure last year and he's using that mind set for his son and Samantha.

    Now enter the flashbacks.

    I'll have to agree with Conklin that there's the killer in Oliver which it's a long time coming. I'd say this is the first time I can say for sure of seeing Oliver in the flashbacks is using his season 1 self of using his stoic mask. I was actually going "yes" when Oliver fought Conklin and killed him because we are finally moving towards The Hood.

    Which I like Taiana not being one of the few is not trying to get Oliver reject his darkness but is actually telling him to embrace it. I would have liked Oliver to arrive to that conclusion by himself but I'm not going to nitpick.

    Baron Reiter well at this point I'm just curious to see what exactly he is digging for because while I might have a possible idea comic wise I have zero information at this point.

    A thought did occur to me of I wonder if Reiter is going to start executing prisoners since after all Oliver was alone in the pilot episode when he got rescued by the fishing boat.
    Last edited by Haggard01; 02-18-2016 at 07:32 PM.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halberdier17 View Post
    Samantha never cashed the check.

    Also I forgot that Milo Armitage was on Arrow and is part of HIVE.
    Didn't Moira actually offer 2 million? And I'm kind of surprised by Thea, I figured she would have been more willing to get her brother to speak up on the truth considering her own past.

  12. #42
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    I think on the surface, the Quentin - Donna subplot seems like the usual secrets and lies stuff we're used to seeing. In any other season, that would be it and it's essentially a melodrama subplot.

    But -- in the context of S4 and the baby mama drama (the alpha melodrama subplot this season, there is no contest) -- it's much more than this. Donna explaining why she wasn't willing to buy Quentin's evading the truth b.s. ... and Felicity giving sensible advice (the words of which she might have to eat, when the other shoe drops and Ollie either reveals to her or she finds out without his help about William), as well as Quentin's own heart-to-heart with Ollie -- they are all making allusions to, and foreshadowing how Ollie and Felicity's situation may unfold if and when Ollie does fess up. Lots of parallels re: secrets and lies.

    I'd normally agree about fast-forwarding some of the minor melodrama subplots, but in this case I'd actually recommend seeing the Quentin and Donna ones esp their respective chit-chats with Ollie and Felicity. The status of Quentin/Donna on the show is minor on its own in comparison to Ollie's journey/mission/destiny, but at least in this episode it needs to be seen in the big-picture context of how it may be foreshadowing the Olicity fallout of The Secret. I'd say it was interesting to see if either Ollie or Felicity will heed the lessons learned as Quentin and Donna resolved their mini "lying/concealing the truth to protect people" crisis. Something tells me no.

    Outside of all that, this ep. was strong in the action front and in showcasing Thea beyond her bloodlust subplot. Thea slayed it in practically every scene, including her uncovering Ollie's secret son mystery. Not surprisingly, she's on Team Ollie in keeping William a secret and even if you chalk it up as a sister backing a brother (was there any doubt?) she did make a good case if you agree with Ollie's perspective. Even if you agree that Felicity is entitled to know about William in a real-world "normal" life sense (and she does, if they were an average couple not involved in dangerous, daily vigilantism), in the context of Ollie's world aka a vigilante with enemies looking to exploit any edge and target any loved one to take him down, it's hard to contest Thea's view re: protecting the son is paramount, even if it means concealing the truth from your future wife.

    Loved how Thea just pulled the fire alarm old-school style -- low tech effective.

    And what was up with Darkh and William in the end? Samantha either got conned into allowing him to play with Darkh's kid -- or she's been kidnapped or possibly already dead? If William gets so much as a paper cut, the necessity for Ollie to deal with Malcolm some how, some way will go up exponentially I'd say.
    Last edited by President_Luthor; 02-18-2016 at 09:28 PM.

  13. #43
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    For the whole Thea discovering William and her advice to Oliver. Ok first is it going to blow up in their faces and is wrong to do? Yep, totally but like Thea said Oliver being the Green Arrow paints a target on his back so he has to keep it a secret for his son's safety. Also but why can't he tell his friends and family? Well that means the circle gets bigger regardless of if they keep it. Oliver at his core is a highly skilled tactician which was shown for sure last year and he's using that mind set for his son and Samantha.

    Not surprisingly, she's on Team Ollie in keeping William a secret and even if you chalk it up as a sister backing a brother (was there any doubt?) she did make a good case if you agree with Ollie's perspective. Even if you agree that Felicity is entitled to know about William in a real-world "normal" life sense (and she does, if they were an average couple not involved in dangerous, daily vigilantism), in the context of Ollie's world aka a vigilante with enemies looking to exploit any edge and target any loved one to take him down, it's hard to contest Thea's view re: protecting the son is paramount, even if it means concealing the truth from your future wife.
    First off, Oliver not telling the world about William keeps him safe, but not telling the team of crime fighters and body guards and expert surveillance hackers makes no sense. Not telling anyone MAYBE MAYBE in his twisted logic might make sense when no one but Barry knew about the kid, but MALCOLM MERLYN knows about William and vowed to make Oliver suffer. Now Thea figured it out by looking at campaign research designed to see what red flags the opposition might find. Thea figured it out in half a day. Oliver has no defensible reason for not telling Felicity. Not only has she proved she will keep his secrets, she would be the best one to start looking to see if there has been any research looking into Samantha in connection to Oliver not to mention sticking a satellite over the kid's house to see any comings and goings.

    Maybe if he'd broken is misplace code of silence he'd have at least known when DD kidnapped his kid. But no, somehow keeping him a secret keeps him safe???

    Plus, his promise to Samantha was never about keeping William safe. Samantha didn't even make that argument. She just thinks he's a crappy human being and won't let him tell anyone about William as punishment for making her anxious after all these years. There was never a compelling reason not to tell Felicity. Samantha had no way of finding out.

    And now after he knows an evil man bent on revenge knows all about William, Oliver is still more interested in keeping a already broken promise than ensuring William's safety? Yep, father of the year. I'm not sure William isn't safe in DD's keeping.

    Poor William. obviously he doesn't understand he's not supposed to go with a stranger. But then why should another stranger showing up and wanting to have a play date seem strange. He's already fine with Mommy's "friend" coming around and hanging out along with him. Why not another one?

    This episode was painful. The constant falling anvils left me concussed and impatient just to get this stupid mess over. The lie makes no sense. Again, doesn't keep William safe at all.

    And then there is Thea.

    OMG, Thea is now fine with people lying about secret fathers? Umm, Thea was so mad that they kept the truth about her father from her that she let her family go bankrupt. Then she dumped Roy for more lies and ditched Oliver to go hang with evil dad. Thea HATES being lied to but she's suddenly super fine with Oliver lying to his soon to be wife? Again, not telling the world about William makes sense. Not telling Felicity makes no sense. Again, at this point Oliver has failed the part where no one can know about William. He's already broken the promise. There is no reason to single Felicity out not to know.

    Donna explaining why she wasn't willing to buy Quentin's evading the truth b.s. ... and Felicity giving sensible advice (the words of which she might have to eat, when the other shoe drops and Ollie either reveals to her or she finds out without his help about William),
    I've seen this comparison a few times elsewhere and I don't get it. Felicity knew that her mother would be in danger if she was hanging with Quentin and even though the lie Lance told Donna was questionable at best, he had genuine good intentions to keep Donna safe. So yeah, I agreed that QL deserved forgiveness once he fessed up.

    The thing is Oliver lying to Felicity about William doesn't protect her and telling her would not put William in danger, it would actually make him safer. They are different kinds of lies. Felicity lies ever day just like the rest of the team. Lying isn't always bad in her eyes. But what QL did and what OQ is doing is not the same. Oliver not telling her makes no sense.

  14. #44
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    Thea is now fine with people lying about secret fathers? Umm, Thea was so mad that they kept the truth about her father from her that she let her family go bankrupt. Then she dumped Roy for more lies and ditched Oliver to go hang with evil dad. Thea HATES being lied to but she's suddenly super fine with Oliver lying to his soon to be wife? Again, not telling the world about William makes sense. Not telling Felicity makes no sense. Again, at this point Oliver has failed the part where no one can know about William. He's already broken the promise. There is no reason to single Felicity out not to know.
    Thea's okay with lying to Felicity. She didn't say anything about lying to the kid about being his dad, that I remember, which was what she was lied to about as an 18 year old. Should Oliver tell the woman he's about to marry that he has a son? If he wants a healthy relationship, yes. But Oliver doesn't do that. And Felicity isn't automatically entitled to that information.

    God bless you! God bless everyone!

  15. #45
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    Not telling anyone MAYBE MAYBE in his twisted logic might make sense when no one but Barry knew about the kid, but MALCOLM MERLYN knows about William and vowed to make Oliver suffer.
    We are still waiting for the other shoe to drop re: Team Arrow knowing that Malcolm squealed to Darkh about William. Logic dictates they should have already considered it -- but this is Oliver Queen. It will surely hit the fan before he realizes: "Hey, maybe Malcolm might tell old League frat buddy Damien about William!" Ollie knows Malcolm knows, but for whatever reason only known to Ollie -- he didn't consider that Malcolm would use such info as leverage in the future?

    My thinking is that Ollie should have gotten his CC family relocated, hidden, Team Flash protection etc. the moment he discovered that Malcolm knows about his son. This would be the smart play -- with "smart" not always being in Ollie's toolkit. (Plus, there's no way they'd let this alpha melodrama subplot peter out. In this case, the sensible move could also be boring to watch aka 'Yay, the baby family is in Team Arrow witness protection, never to be seen again'. So much for juicy melodrama.)

    From the Malcolm perspective, he gave Ollie to opportunity to back his play against Nyssa when explained the League's Illuminati-like influence in the world (and why he felt Nyssa shouldn't hold the reins) or at the very least let the civil war play out without interference -- something Ollie could never stand for in his own city, the collateral damage when the factions did skirmish only underlining that Ollie could not stay aloof and neutral. Ollie chose to back Nyssa, and while Ollie has every reason to detest and oppose Malcolm -- did the notion that William just got a super-sized bullseye ever occur to him? Ollie was in a nearly impossible dilemma, once you remove the 'ice the dude' option from the table. Unfortunately common sense and Ollie don't always go hand in hand. Maybe Ollie (and Nyssa) should have thought about how Malcolm might react before they came up with stripping him of an organization he was so clearly was committed to.

    The constant falling anvils left me concussed and impatient just to get this stupid mess over. The lie makes no sense. Again, doesn't keep William safe at all.
    The baby mama drama was totally designed to amp up the angst and melodrama, so unfortunately the Quentin and Donna sideshow also played a part in the hammer-on-anvil stuff too, but this is something they tend to do anyway in the series' writing. But this time they've made the stakes higher than ever.

    I think we do need to separate "real world" from the fantastical, high-stakes pretend universe that Ollie and Co. inhabit. In a "normal" world where Ollie and Felicity are an average couple who aren't involved in a dangerous night job, it would be a given that, if Ollie values Felicity as a spouse that he should tell her about his secret son, risk the fallout and maintain the trust on which that relationship should be based. Makes total sense -- in a normal world aka the one we live in: the world Ollie and Felicity don't inhabit.

    But this is Oliver Queen/GA, in a world where everyone he ever knows or loves automatically becomes a target the moment they are associated with the city's masked vigilante. Imposing real-world expectations on either Ollie or Felicity in such a world just seems designed to fail ... and I wouldn't put it past the showrunners for actually wanting it to come off like that. Ollie is not going to live up to that real-world standard, how could he in the extreme (and clearly not normal) circumstances he finds himself in after nearly four seasons in the vigilante life and esp. with his spotty track record re: secrets and lies.

    Not saying Ollie is totally in the right, or Felicity is totally in the wrong. But I've never seen it as clear-cut, where Ollie is at fault and Felicity is in the clear (or vice versa, that Felicity is in the right and Ollie is completely off-side.). It was always grey to me. The one thing that hasn't changed for me is that a lie of omission/concealment of truth is still a lie. Whatever circumstances might mitigate the keeping of the truth or not, not revealing it is still a lie. Quentin found himself knee-deep in this dilemma in this ep. -- and I suspect Ollie will too by season's end.

    I just think that in this ep., with the advice Felicity gave to Donna, Felicity may find herself in a 'Do as I say, not as I do' scenario. Quentin/Donna and Olicity are different relationships and in a specific sense they are not the same, but I think in this ep. they used the Quentin/Donna situation to frame what Ollie and Felicity are going through more generally -- in the larger thematic sense re: truth, lies, when it's justified or not, how much leeway (if any) can be given if the concealment of truth/lie of omission "serves" a greater good or not.

    This is my takeway from it and where I can see where some of those reviews that put it out there are coming from. So plotwise, the status of the Quentin/Donna ship on its own is minor melodrama to me. But in the larger big-picture sense of how the issues it brought up may frame Ollie and Felicity's future "Most. Awkward. Conversation. Ever." -- all I'm saying is this ep. really should be bookmarked for future reference. Just putting that out there.

    With Thea, I think we need to see it more as Thea thinking about William's well-being aka how is life could be better with a father figure in his life. Something I would think they all want for his son, regardless of the (still unknown to them) threat of Darkh babysitting William. Would Thea be as willing to agree with the 'keep William a secret' plan had she known both Malcolm and Darkh know about the son? We don't know, because apparently they don't know or even considered it as a risk. Chalk that up as typical Team Arrow cluelessness. Not proactive much, guys?

    In a way, I'm relieved that it is a family member that knows the secret now and a strong case could be made that Thea, as his only living blood family relative (prior to William), should know it ahead of anyone. In a way, the revelation makes Ollie come off as a putz because Thea had to find out not by Ollie disclosing all before the start of the campaign but while she was vetting his past for possible damaging skeletons while the campaign was going on.

    The takeaway from the Thea scenes for me is: she wants Ollie to be able to have a relationship with his son, has some sympathy for Samantha's reasons for giving him visitation conditions, and is okay with Felicity being kept out of the loop. She apparently doesn't know or hasn't considered if William is now in danger.

    Ollie knows that there may be a risk -- the moment Malcolm told him he knew about William. From that moment on, it is on Ollie how he handles this information or not, or if keeping William a secret is in his son's long-term safety interests. Still a lot of unknowns on what he will do or not at this point.

    Stripping Malcolm of the League in the way he did might have been progress for new-and-improved, non-lethal Ollie/GA, but in the fallout sense one wonders if Ollie ever truly considered the ramifications on himself, his city or his son. Ollie may be good at winning the short-term battles, but so far not in the long game. Malcolm has always been about winning the long-term war whatever the cost ... and Darkh may be either a comrade-in-arms in this or a significant stepping stone in Malcolm's own endgame.

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