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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Kent View Post


    Oh, and BTW, great point about the fact that by her very biology a woman knows she has a child. Only in the most bizarre, unusual, uncommon circumstances would it be the case that a woman suddenly discovers she has a child out in the world that she never knew existed. So I guess as a woman I know it is going to be harder for me to imagine/understand Oliver's feelings than it might be for a lot of men...
    It wasn't so much women knowing in advance as it was our little perfect world we want to build here with Oliver wanting to be a part of William's life. In such a world Samantha would've told Oliver he'd be a father and Oliver would've had 6-9 months (depending on when Samantha told him) to digest that information and come to a conclusion IF he wanted to be a part of the child's life or not. Instead we have Oliver finding out and everyone jumping down his throat for not telling Felicity about it. Give the man some TIME and I'm not talking about a couple of hours or days, weeks to months is the least one could allow him to make such a decision. Sure Oliver could tell Felicity out of common courtesy but he's not required to, she's not suddenly going to be William's mother or anything. Hell if Oliver decides not to be a part of William's life then Felicity is absolutely nothing to William.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amarice View Post
    Wait, what? Who did he kill? One of the Ghosts?

    (asking, because I didn't watch a few last episodes, don't even have time to catch up really, but you made me interested with that mention)
    Oliver killed Conklin. The real version of Oliver which like Conklin said "There's the killer." Because for a few moments I was seeing The Hood peak through and the fight it self was probably the closest thing we will ever get to a season 1 fight of one on one.

    I've watched the fight at least four times now.

  3. #63
    Site Groupie Shelby Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDevil View Post
    It wasn't so much women knowing in advance as it was our little perfect world we want to build here with Oliver wanting to be a part of William's life. In such a world Samantha would've told Oliver he'd be a father and Oliver would've had 6-9 months (depending on when Samantha told him) to digest that information and come to a conclusion IF he wanted to be a part of the child's life or not. Instead we have Oliver finding out and everyone jumping down his throat for not telling Felicity about it. Give the man some TIME and I'm not talking about a couple of hours or days, weeks to months is the least one could allow him to make such a decision. Sure Oliver could tell Felicity out of common courtesy but he's not required to, she's not suddenly going to be William's mother or anything. Hell if Oliver decides not to be a part of William's life then Felicity is absolutely nothing to William.
    Yeah I think the first transgression was Moira buying Samantha off and Samantha not telling Ollie information that he had a right to know.

    I understand that a lot of posters (and probably Felicity I'm going to assume here without yet having seen the scene play out yet again..) have a different timeline in mind for how much time Oliver should take than I have in mind. For me, I don't think there's one generic fill in the blank right answer b/c I have to factor in the context (and a lot of that info is not available to me). With all that extra info missing, I just really don't know. Personally, I'm probably comfortable with a longer timeline than what I've seen discussed by some posters and I think that's b/c I am someone who tends to compartmentalize (have to in my career to do what needs to be done...) and also I am someone who tends to need time to think things through. The worst possible thing for me to have to do with anything important -- especially emotionally -- is to have to get into a discussion about it immediately. I know my brain is muddled, I don't even know how I feel about it, it won't help talking to someone until I have a better understanding of how I feel. Anything otherwise makes me literally feel like I'm being crowded and just makes things worse. I know everyone is different in these kinds of things and I've got family members and friends who are totally opposite from me in that regard.
    Last edited by Shelby Kent; 02-21-2016 at 11:29 AM.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Kent View Post
    Yeah I think the first transgression was Moira buying Samantha off and Samantha not telling Ollie information that he had a right to know.
    Be that as it may, without that scene we wouldn't have the drama we have now. I'm just saying give Oliver the same amount of time to come to a decision about being a part of William's life as he would've had if Samantha would've told him. Felicity can be told once Oliver knows what HE wants to do about the situation. The spur of the moment decision is that he wants to be a part of William's life, let's see if that still stands at the end of the season.

    The woman has 9 months to decide to keep the child, give it up for adoption or (a much more limited timeframe to decide) get an abortion. The man gets told and has to make a decision almost immediately.
    Last edited by DoubleDevil; 02-21-2016 at 12:05 PM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDevil View Post
    Be that as it may, without that scene we wouldn't have the drama we have now. I'm just saying give Oliver the same amount of time to come to a decision about being a part of William's life as he would've had if Samantha would've told him. Felicity can be told once Oliver knows what HE wants to do about the situation. The spur of the moment decision is that he wants to be a part of William's life, let's see if that still stands at the end of the season.
    Well, but regardless of whether or not Oliver wants to be a part of William's life, I think it's very reasonable that a fiance should get to know about the fact that someone does have a child. What one wants to do with regard to being involved or not with a child, is different issue from the fact that the child exists. If Oliver decides he does not want to be involved with his child, then William could still come knocking on his and Felicity's door when he's 18 years old or whatever for example, so the fact that he exists is very much Felicity's business if they are going to be married. I think the two are generally separate issues.

    If Oliver needs 6-9 months to decide if he wants to be involved (theoretically, let's say) and if Felicity is engaged to him during that time, it doesn't seem quite right to me that she should go for 6 months or longer during her engagement without knowing the fact that he has a child. I can't imagine that she would have a problem with the fact that he has an illegitimate child but just for pretend sakes, say a fiance would have a problem. Then the fiance is going to have to back out of a 6+ months engagement along with whatever repercussions that might entail (emotional and other plans that might have been underway) upon learning this news. I don't believe Oliver has the right to just assume that he knows Felicity's reaction well enough to say, "well, that's okay for me not to tell her before the proposal b/c I know she'll be okay with me having a kid." That's not for him to decide. So, IMO he probably shouldn't be getting engaged as others have pointed out until he's ready to tell her.

    But I also don't think that he owed the information to her immediately upon finding out, as that one scene portrayed and at that time they were not engaged or is my memory incorrect?

    Oliver's rights aren't being violated by the expectation that he should hold off on proposing to Felicity if he is not ready to tell her about his child. He doesn't have to propose to her. To do so without telling her about the child, is actually quite self-indulgent on his part. Hmmmm.... the more I think about that, I might just go add another black mark to his name! Proposing and not providing that info to Felicity IMO is a violation of her right to have access to that info before she decides to legally bind herself to someone. Whereas telling her if they are not engaged, and the timeframe within which that should be done, is a somewhat different matter for me.

    Well, at any rate, always interesting to hear what everyone thinks. Plus now, thanks to this discussion I get to add another demerit to my personal gradebook of all-things-S4-Oliver

  6. #66
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Kent View Post
    Anyway, at that one moment in time (first cross-over fight) I really don’t have any harsh judgment about how Ollie’s acting.

    Beyond that time though, I’ve not been given enough data/info to understand the entirety of subsequent events/choices, enough so that I feel confident in how I would judge his actions and choices. I have more questions than answers. Really, to get into addressing the kind of particulars that I would need to know about, the material would best be handled in a 2-hr Lifetime special cross-over movie event (Tonight on Lifetime Movie Network! -- Arrow Secrets and Lies: The Secret Love Child: Fallout!)

    So, I guess, maybe unlike a lot of posters, I really don’t know how to judge him and I don’t have any feeling about even wanting to make a judgment – I guess b/c I accept that the intent of this storyline was never to give me the full picture about the situation (which would require scenes about his visits and conversations with Samantha …). Basically, Guggie et al. are taking lots of cheap short-cuts with this story.

    The one thing I did think, as I said when I saw the Thea/Ollie scene, was that it was nice to know that he was struggling with the situation. I’m glad to have evidence that this has not been easy for him (unlike how he used to treat Laurel…). I can at least give him a bit of credit for that.

    What this storyline leaves me with is curiosity about 2 things:
    1. What will Felicity’s reaction be this time when she finds out?

    2. How will William’s storyline play out?
    There really is very little we have to work with re: what's been going on in Ollie's mind post-crossover. His chat with Thea was probably the first real indication as to where his mind may be at. I can only presume that having his sister's support would bolster his resolve on whatever decision or action he may take -- and that could be anything from telling Felicity ASAP to allowing it to fester until Felicity finds out on her own.

    Ideally, Ollie asks for x amount of time to sort out what he wants re:fatherhood, being part of William's life even if just as a friend etc. and Felicity grants him that time to weigh what it means to him, and to them should their marriage go through. I don't think there is a formula that will please everyone re: what constitutes the right amount of time.

    For the purposes of the series, I think he has until at the latest the penultimate episode of S4 aka the second-to-last ep. to deal with it conclusively. I think it wouldn't be practical (or interesting to me) if he takes into S5 to be still indecisive about it. I would still prefer that the fallout occurs even sooner than this, so that the dust has largely "settled" by the time of the season finale. They can have at it in a whole ep devoted to the fallout, melodrama of this size would deserve it -- but no more. The S4 finale should be more for wrapping up major S4 plot points and as a springboard for S5 arcs -- there will not be space in the finale to dedicate much time to the fallout on Olicity.

    I can accept that Ollie had an emotionally wrung-out and foggy brain when he muttered "I don't know." I'm far harsher on both of them on the timing of the whole spat, I'd side with the 'mission first, angst later' camp. With the hindsight that we now have (that, really, only Ollie and Barry possess), it's easier for us to call them out on irrational behaviour -- now that the Savage threat has been dealt with and Ollie has pledged to be the husband to Felicity that he never was with "first" wife Nyssa, lol.

    But back then, with the world in peril and a battle to the death on their doorstep, it is hard for me to completely slam either of them for their angst-ridden timeline 1 behaviour. I'd say on the melodrama scale and its potential fallout not only for the ship but for the main character Ollie, the baby mama drama rates pretty high -- we're talking S6 SV Clexana-level soap here, where the ramifications on the series are wide and potentially messy. Crossing my fingers that we won't see melodrama of this scale again on Arrow, once it's resolved. There's going to be fallout spilling into S5, but I'm hoping it won't be as time-consuming and sudsy as this has been this season.

    As for what's in store:

    1. Best case would be for Felicity to still be ticked at Ollie's non-disclosure/lying etc. but they manage to work it out like adults aka the opposite of the timeline 1 blow-up. Felicity accepts that Ollie is damaged goods who isn't going to behave like an average normal joe, some leeway is given in that regard. And Ollie accepts reasonable limits on his non-normal behaviour re: secrets and lies. And Ollie's role in William's life, whether as just a friend or formally as a father, becomes a necessary part in the compromises they make. Better get a running start on that leap of faith.

    Worst case is something worse than the timeline 1 break-up. If Felicity finds out about William and the visitation deal before Ollie divulges any of it to her, this would be far worse than Felicity merely stumbling upon the paternity test. I can't see how it wouldn't be seen as a trust issue between them and if Ollie can't come up with satisfactory reasons for the lie of omission, then at the very least the engagement will be off if not the whole relationship. "I don't know" won't cut it at that point.

    2. We've basically gotten squat post-crossovers, apart from Ollie mentioning he's been popping in CC (and obviously to visit his son). We know nothing about how the visits went, does William see him now as a friend, or whether or not Samantha could possibly come around to removing the tell-no-one conditions now that she's seen that Ollie has changed, how Ollie is with her son etc. Everything beyond the fact that Ollie still visits his son is speculative at this point. Now that William is de facto a pawn in Darkh's schemes against Ollie, these questions will need to be answered soon.

    Otherwise, Overwatch is going to wonder what's so important about that little boy Darkh is babysitting if a Team Arrow rescue is in the works.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Kent View Post
    Well, but regardless of whether or not Oliver wants to be a part of William's life, I think it's very reasonable that a fiance should get to know about the fact that someone does have a child. What one wants to do with regard to being involved or not with a child, is different issue from the fact that the child exists. If Oliver decides he does not want to be involved with his child, then William could still come knocking on his and Felicity's door when he's 18 years old or whatever for example, so the fact that he exists is very much Felicity's business if they are going to be married. I think the two are generally separate issues.

    If Oliver needs 6-9 months to decide if he wants to be involved (theoretically, let's say) and if Felicity is engaged to him during that time, it doesn't seem quite right to me that she should go for 6 months or longer during her engagement without knowing the fact that he has a child. I can't imagine that she would have a problem with the fact that he has an illegitimate child but just for pretend sakes, say a fiance would have a problem. Then the fiance is going to have to back out of a 6+ months engagement along with whatever repercussions that might entail (emotional and other plans that might have been underway) upon learning this news. I don't believe Oliver has the right to just assume that he knows Felicity's reaction well enough to say, "well, that's okay for me not to tell her before the proposal b/c I know she'll be okay with me having a kid." That's not for him to decide. So, IMO he probably shouldn't be getting engaged as others have pointed out until he's ready to tell her.

    But I also don't think that he owed the information to her immediately upon finding out, as that one scene portrayed and at that time they were not engaged or is my memory incorrect?

    Oliver's rights aren't being violated by the expectation that he should hold off on proposing to Felicity if he is not ready to tell her about his child. He doesn't have to propose to her. To do so without telling her about the child, is actually quite self-indulgent on his part. Hmmmm.... the more I think about that, I might just go add another black mark to his name! Proposing and not providing that info to Felicity IMO is a violation of her right to have access to that info before she decides to legally bind herself to someone. Whereas telling her if they are not engaged, and the timeframe within which that should be done, is a somewhat different matter for me.

    Well, at any rate, always interesting to hear what everyone thinks. Plus now, thanks to this discussion I get to add another demerit to my personal gradebook of all-things-S4-Oliver
    I agree, a fiancé has a different amount of disclosure due to them than a girlfriend and yes Oliver shouldn't have proposed without informing her. My issue is everyone jumping down his throat and proclaiming Felicity had a right to know before Oliver proposed. While I'm willing to give Oliver all the time he wants to come to a decision and inform Felicity (pre-proposal) I personally probably would've informed her inside of a week that I had an illegitimate child and told her I needed more time to digest the information before I told her anything more. Post-proposal the same holds true, Oliver should inform Felicity ASAP but doesn't have to make a full disclosure yet.

  8. #68
    Forum Whiz Amarice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haggard01 View Post
    Oliver killed Conklin. The real version of Oliver which like Conklin said "There's the killer." Because for a few moments I was seeing The Hood peak through and the fight it self was probably the closest thing we will ever get to a season 1 fight of one on one.

    I've watched the fight at least four times now.
    Hey, that one looked decent like a decent fight. Couldn't find all flashback scenes on YT (did 4x13 had flashbacks?), seems that I'll need eventually to catch up with "Arrow" just to be up-to-date with the island storyline. Seems some interesting stuff was happening there.

  9. #69
    Site Groupie Shelby Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    I can accept that Ollie had an emotionally wrung-out and foggy brain when he muttered "I don't know." I'm far harsher on both of them on the timing of the whole spat, I'd side with the 'mission first, angst later' camp. With the hindsight that we now have (that, really, only Ollie and Barry possess), it's easier for us to call them out on irrational behaviour -- now that the Savage threat has been dealt with and Ollie has pledged to be the husband to Felicity that he never was with "first" wife Nyssa, lol.

    But back then, with the world in peril and a battle to the death on their doorstep, it is hard for me to completely slam either of them for their angst-ridden timeline 1 behaviour. I'd say on the melodrama scale and its potential fallout not only for the ship but for the main character Ollie, the baby mama drama rates pretty high -- we're talking S6 SV Clexana-level soap here, where the ramifications on the series are wide and potentially messy. Crossing my fingers that we won't see melodrama of this scale again on Arrow, once it's resolved. There's going to be fallout spilling into S5, but I'm hoping it won't be as time-consuming and sudsy as this has been this season.
    Yeah, now that I think about it, I have to penalize them both very harshly for creating the conditions that led to the spat at such an inappropriate time. Once the information was out there (Oliver confirmed he had a son; Felicity had confirmation through the stolen test results) I don’t think they could have reined in the emotional part of their brains much, if at all.

    Where I’ll dock points against Ollie is that, after having his suspicions raised upon seeing a boy with Samantha in Jitters, he should have put any further investigation of the boy’s paternity on the backburner till he finished his mission. I can imagine he would have felt some emotion upon seeing the boy and having such suspicions, but at that point, I think he likely still had the ability to be self-disciplined enough to compartmentalize and remember that the mission was priority. I also think it is reasonable to expect that he should have anticipated that the paternity issue was likely to be a distraction, likely to interfere with his focus, and therefore, all the more reason to postpone.

    Once he conducted his investigation though, as I said, I think he was too emotional. However, I think things still could have stayed reasonably contained if it hadn’t been for Felicity’s actions. So she too shares blame.

    Now Felicity – where I’ll dock points against her for contributing to the mess was her stalkerish behavior in tracking down Oliver and his interaction with Barry and then yanking the test results away from Barry. I get that Felicity is a more emotional person than Ollie, one less able to compartmentalize, and once Ollie was feeling emotional about the paternity results she would have picked up on that (that he was emotional) and had an emotional response to his heightened emotions and likely demanded to know what was going on. But by stealing the test results she gained information that just made her even more emotional and which she used to wave around in front of Ollie’s face and just amp everything up another notch, making it even harder for Ollie to rein in his emotions. Cause now there was all the talk of lies and the demands that he answer questions about the timeframe of when he was planning to reveal the information and so on and so forth….(Plus, her stalkerish behavior really can’t just be gaffed off with the excuse that she is an “emotional” person IMO, or where would we be in the world if we excused everyone for violating other people’s rights to privacy etc just b/c the violator was “emotional” – actually I think that kind of behavior qualifies Felicity for counseling)

    So, yeah, I do agree Ollie had no business going down the paternity-investigation path until they had finished with their Vandal Savage mission. And once Felicity played her part, they were done for in the out-of-control-melodrama department that’s for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDevil View Post
    I agree, a fiancé has a different amount of disclosure due to them than a girlfriend and yes Oliver shouldn't have proposed without informing her. My issue is everyone jumping down his throat and proclaiming Felicity had a right to know before Oliver proposed. While I'm willing to give Oliver all the time he wants to come to a decision and inform Felicity (pre-proposal) I personally probably would've informed her inside of a week that I had an illegitimate child and told her I needed more time to digest the information before I told her anything more. Post-proposal the same holds true, Oliver should inform Felicity ASAP but doesn't have to make a full disclosure yet.
    Well, as I said, I know that people had varying reactions about how fast Oliver should have told Felicity (I’m not talking about with the proposal in place here now…) and my feeling was that he should have a lot more time before he needed to tell her than what many other posters thought. Part of that, for me, is that I do factor in Samantha as being an obstacle, and that is where the rest of my judgment (again, if we extract the fact of the proposal….) ends up having to be suspended, because I don’t have a good enough feel for the context (what his subsequent visits and conversations with Samantha were like). And I’m okay if he was muddling around even a little more than normal because the Samantha-factor threw a wrench in the works.

    What I ding him for severely is proposing to Felicity. As long as he is not yet ready to tell Felicity (for good reason, for safety reason, for stupid reason, for illogical reason, doesn’t matter) – just the fact that he is not yet willing to tell her means he had no business proposing. I feel very comfortable in judging him harshly for the fact that he proposed.

    So I’m okay that he was struggling with the dilemma of how to handle Samantha’s demands: keeping his promise to her versus not, and I feel I need more information about that situation. But absolutely not okay with proposing to Felicity given the circumstances. That should have been put on the backburner.

    Last edited by Shelby Kent; 02-21-2016 at 02:39 PM.

  10. #70
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halberdier17 View Post
    I know he shouldn't have lied but he just found out he had a son he didn't have time to process that information before he was confronted about keeping it a secret. Sure after he saw his son he should have told atleast Felicity and Thea that he has a son. But Samantha said William and everyone else can't know William is Oliver's son.
    That's not the point. Felicity freaked out over something he'd juts learned, that was wrong, yes. Oliver made bad choices because of his unhealthy dependence on Felicity.
    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    I'd give him a pass on processing if he'd any intension of sharing but instead he (crippled by MG's stupidity) decided his only option was to be honest with BabyMama and lie to everyone else that he actually trusts and has a relationship with. The dumbness of this forced and contrived "dilemma" is beyond reasoning or understanding and it's only gotten stupider with time and more exposure of the secret.

    But now he's had months to mull it over and he's made the same choice. He had the benefit of the doubt the first time around, that maybe he'd process and realize he had a choice but instead he's just fallen more into the rabbit hole and again, it does not protect William to keep him a secret from Felicity and Oliver's already broken his promise to Samantha three times over so why still does the buck stop with Felicity?

    Because PLOT!!!!!!!!! I just wish there was even a tiny valid justification.
    There is a valid justification: Oliver is a liar and this is very in character for him. Oliver had made this same choice multiple times and it always goes bad and ends up effecting those he cares about negatively. Oliver has been written this way since season 2.

    God bless you both! God bless everyone!
    Last edited by Dagenspear; 02-21-2016 at 06:09 PM.

  11. #71
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDevil View Post
    It wasn't so much women knowing in advance as it was our little perfect world we want to build here with Oliver wanting to be a part of William's life. In such a world Samantha would've told Oliver he'd be a father and Oliver would've had 6-9 months (depending on when Samantha told him) to digest that information and come to a conclusion IF he wanted to be a part of the child's life or not. Instead we have Oliver finding out and everyone jumping down his throat for not telling Felicity about it. Give the man some TIME and I'm not talking about a couple of hours or days, weeks to months is the least one could allow him to make such a decision. Sure Oliver could tell Felicity out of common courtesy but he's not required to, she's not suddenly going to be William's mother or anything. Hell if Oliver decides not to be a part of William's life then Felicity is absolutely nothing to William.
    Here's the thing, Oliver IMMEDIATELY decided he wanted to be a part of William's life just by seeking out confirmation. He didn't have to pull that thread. Samantha even lied to his face. He could have with clear conscious walked away. He didn't trust her and wanted to check up on what she was saying. Then once he was armed with the truth, her returned again and forced the issue and again, immediately wanted to have some kind of a relationship with William.

    The question of if or not he wants a relationship is long past. The whole tortured reason we are given for him keeping William a secret is because he wants to know his child and have at least some kind of a relationship.

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDevil View Post
    Be that as it may, without that scene we wouldn't have the drama we have now. I'm just saying give Oliver the same amount of time to come to a decision about being a part of William's life as he would've had if Samantha would've told him. Felicity can be told once Oliver knows what HE wants to do about the situation. The spur of the moment decision is that he wants to be a part of William's life, let's see if that still stands at the end of the season.

    The woman has 9 months to decide to keep the child, give it up for adoption or (a much more limited timeframe to decide) get an abortion. The man gets told and has to make a decision almost immediately.
    And Oliver made that decision instantly. He didn't struggle with processing his choice to know William. His original struggle was processing his promise to lie about William. And in the original timeline, Felicity caught him lying immediately. He didn't have to. She already knew he was struggling to process something. He could have said he needed more time but instead he lied. Still didn't make a difference in them all dying since the ultimate problem was with their tech, not their mindset.

    [
    There is a valid justification: Oliver is a liar and this is very in character for him. Oliver had made this same choice multiple times and it always goes bad and ends up effecting those he cares about negatively. Oliver has been written this way since season 2.
    Thus making why he insists on NOT lying to Baby Mama - the one that had lied to him for 10 years - all the more perplexing. This is one case where his willingness to lie would have solved the big issues not created more problems. Lie to Samantha about telling no one and then tell the people that deserve to know.

    If they need the drama between Oliver and Felicity, how about have Oliver back to his "because of the life I lead" stance and refuse to see William. Felicity was abandoned by her father, how hard would it have been to have them on different sides of the issue?

  12. #72
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    Thus making why he insists on NOT lying to Baby Mama - the one that had lied to him for 10 years - all the more perplexing. This is one case where his willingness to lie would have solved the big issues not created more problems. Lie to Samantha about telling no one and then tell the people that deserve to know.

    If they need the drama between Oliver and Felicity, how about have Oliver back to his "because of the life I lead" stance and refuse to see William. Felicity was abandoned by her father, how hard would it have been to have them on different sides of the issue?
    The lies have always been to people he cares about. He usually only tells people the truth if he has a friendly acquaintance with them, no matter how much the lie puts those he cares about in danger or hurts them. Him telling Thea was a change of pace, but that doesn't seem to have changed his general approach.

    God bless you! God bless everyone!

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