View Poll Results: What did you think?

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  • 10 - I want to watch it all over again

    3 18.75%
  • 9

    3 18.75%
  • 8

    4 25.00%
  • 7

    3 18.75%
  • 6

    0 0%
  • 5

    1 6.25%
  • 4

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  • 1 - My patience for this show is shorter than Diggle's brother

    2 12.50%
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  1. #16
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    Wasn't it said that the new guy in charge at WB or whatever lightened up on the embargo thing? Or was just that a rumor? Crappy Waller's been removed and I am really hoping it wasn't because of the damn movies as its getting ridiculous.

  2. #17
    Forum Regular Arrow_47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LycoX View Post
    Wasn't it said that the new guy in charge at WB or whatever lightened up on the embargo thing? Or was just that a rumor? Crappy Waller's been removed and I am really hoping it wasn't because of the damn movies as its getting ridiculous.
    Agreed. Even with the embargo, they didn't have to kill her off. What happens if the movies flop? You run the risk of sloppy storytelling by killing off some of your more compelling characters. You can also alienate part of your audience who are too ticked off to pay to see the movies out of retribution for ruining the TV shows.

    All that aside, I gave it 8/10. Loved the Goth Felicity part...and not just because I called it in another thread. I know Felicity burned the picture, but I hope we see her again.

  3. #18
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    I even questioned the potential flop thing about the movies in regards to the comics in Facebook recently since the comics side is trying to align things with the movies. If those wind up flopping you got a very serious problem. Then they'd just have more then the tv audiences ticked off as well.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by LycoX View Post
    I even questioned the potential flop thing about the movies in regards to the comics in Facebook recently since the comics side is trying to align things with the movies. If those wind up flopping you got a very serious problem. Then they'd just have more then the tv audiences ticked off as well.
    They basically going to end with alot more ticked off people if there Suicide Squad movie doesn't work and there is enough unhappy people already. I really can't see how any of this is going to end well because if the movie works then maybe they will get the idea to take even more characters.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by LycoX View Post
    Wasn't it said that the new guy in charge at WB or whatever lightened up on the embargo thing? Or was just that a rumor? Crappy Waller's been removed and I am really hoping it wasn't because of the damn movies as its getting ridiculous.
    Waller being removed is something that can be seen either way. When I was first watching the episode my initial reaction was "Oh great... they are getting rid of another character for the movies" but looking back at it now I don't think that's really the case.
    Arrow is becoming a much lighter show on his journey to becoming GA and Waller is the exact opposite of that. Waller is the dark side of the world and if they are going to try and move to that type of show (which they seem to be) then it makes sense to remove the character so they can at least still include ARGUS. ARGUS itself isn't inherently bad, it's what Waller does with it which causes the negative wrap behind it as really it's just an intelligence agency that uses outside contractors and doesn't have a true overseeing body. If you put someone like Lyla in charge of ARGUS then I'm sure we'd end up seeing an ARGUS that wasn't prepared to sacrifice a city or all of their employees so easily which is the path I think they are going to take.


    Quote Originally Posted by LycoX View Post
    I even questioned the potential flop thing about the movies in regards to the comics in Facebook recently since the comics side is trying to align things with the movies. If those wind up flopping you got a very serious problem. Then they'd just have more then the tv audiences ticked off as well.
    You won't have the majority of the TV audience ticked off as the majority of people who watch the shows aren't on forum's like we are discussing the ins and outs of everything or keeping up to date with everything that is said about the shows/movies. That's probably half the reason why DC/WB decided to do it this was as they figured it's a gamble to do it this way and potentially overthrow Marvel and if it doesn't work out then they still have their TV shows. It would also explain why they have really upped the amount of shows they are wanting to pump out since they decided to make a universe out of MoS.
    Since then we've had Constantine, Gotham, Flash, Lucifer & Legends all of which has happened in roughly 2 years. It has been much like the original set up of the MCU when they were pumping out a lot of movies in not a lot of time but DC have decided to go the TV path then enter in the movie area while Marvel did the complete opposite.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lipzo View Post
    Arrow is becoming a much lighter show on his journey to becoming GA and Waller is the exact opposite of that. Waller is the dark side of the world and if they are going to try and move to that type of show (which they seem to be) then it makes sense to remove the character so they can at least still include ARGUS. ARGUS itself isn't inherently bad, it's what Waller does with it which causes the negative wrap behind it as really it's just an intelligence agency that uses outside contractors and doesn't have a true overseeing body. If you put someone like Lyla in charge of ARGUS then I'm sure we'd end up seeing an ARGUS that wasn't prepared to sacrifice a city or all of their employees so easily which is the path I think they are going to take.
    This would be my viewpoint. My gut reaction to seeing Waller iced (in the service of ARGUS and, arguably, the nation, we should note) after the shock was 'here we go, another character wiped out due to movie considerations'. And while I would say she was one of the more formidable antagonists for Ollie and it is regrettable a character like her had to exit, her death wasn't without purpose or done flippantly.

    Waller was more suited to the darker tone of S1 and the flashbacks, but as of S4 it would make sense to jettison some characters who no longer "fit" this lighter mood.

    If this is an Ollie who now has lines that he cannot cross, then having someone as ruthless and unscrupulous as Waller would have been problematic re: the new and improved GA. She would have been willing to go further, kill anyone and sacrifice anything beyond what S4 Ollie was willing to do now. S1 Hood could theoretically go toe to toe with her because he was willing to bend rules to the extreme, including killing. But S4 GA? Waller would have an edge -- Ollie would have to resume his "dropping bodies" mode long-term if he wanted to prevail. I don't think Ollie could come back from that, and all the progress he had made this season becoming more balanced would be thrown away.

    If Lyla does indeed take on a significant role with ARGUS, and Diggle also sees some related field action through S5, then Waller's death would have accomplished much in forwarding their story.

    We can only hope that Diggle (or Lyla) gets past the 'who's in the grave' mystery by season's end. If Diggle ends up paying the ultimate price this season and Lyla fades into the background, then we may have to reassess how much of an impact Waller's death had on them and the series.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    This would be my viewpoint. My gut reaction to seeing Waller iced (in the service of ARGUS and, arguably, the nation, we should note) after the shock was 'here we go, another character wiped out due to movie considerations'. And while I would say she was one of the more formidable antagonists for Ollie and it is regrettable a character like her had to exit, her death wasn't without purpose or done flippantly.

    Waller was more suited to the darker tone of S1 and the flashbacks, but as of S4 it would make sense to jettison some characters who no longer "fit" this lighter mood.

    If this is an Ollie who now has lines that he cannot cross, then having someone as ruthless and unscrupulous as Waller would have been problematic re: the new and improved GA. She would have been willing to go further, kill anyone and sacrifice anything beyond what S4 Ollie was willing to do now. S1 Hood could theoretically go toe to toe with her because he was willing to bend rules to the extreme, including killing. But S4 GA? Waller would have an edge -- Ollie would have to resume his "dropping bodies" mode long-term if he wanted to prevail. I don't think Ollie could come back from that, and all the progress he had made this season becoming more balanced would be thrown away.

    If Lyla does indeed take on a significant role with ARGUS, and Diggle also sees some related field action through S5, then Waller's death would have accomplished much in forwarding their story.

    We can only hope that Diggle (or Lyla) gets past the 'who's in the grave' mystery by season's end. If Diggle ends up paying the ultimate price this season and Lyla fades into the background, then we may have to reassess how much of an impact Waller's death had on them and the series.
    That lighter tone of theirs removes also too much of various shades of grey. And so far nothing they do with the show convices me that is the version I can like. It doesn't have to be the same all the time, it can be different - but it's not interesting from me as the viewer any more.

    And who exactly guarantees that the next Director of ARGUS would as indulgent as Waller toward vigilantism? Yes, I will twist it toward this side. Because realistically speaking if the government would like the Arrow/Green Arrow taken down, they would just give an order. Who knows, maybe it was Waller who reconsidered all of the possible options and decided that someone like the Arrow is more efficient while he thinks that he can be independ and do whatever he wants? Ah, but wait, it's too complicated for this show and this writers to actually consider this.

    I don't agree to Waller's methods, but I see her reasoning besides them. All this "for the greater good" stuff, covering also her ruthlessness. And I believe that she saw everyone as assets, her included. More or less valuable ones.

    She was one of more formbidable Oliver's opponents/allies. Maybe it's good that she out of the show, before they managed to ruin her like almost all other characters.

  8. #23
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    I feel like these moves are all consistent with the more "neutered" Ollie that we are being presented with (and which I don't like):

    1. Opening of S4, Oliver was reluctant to come back and help the team. Felicity was the hero. Ollie seemed not to even have a mission anymore (he sure never showed any evidence of even giving just the tiniest thought to his city or friends that he had left behind while living the good-suburban life in Ivy Town). The torch had been passed on: Felicity was the one who apparently had a sense of mission and needed a purpose in life. Meanwhile Ollie apparently spent the summer more concerned with learning to cook omelets and French chicken dishes; perhaps Ollie's new purpose/mission was to enter the contest for Master Chef? In addition to becoming Mr. Smoak of course ...

    2. For most of the season, Ollie has been a pretty soft target in fights. He has also shown a lack of leadership -- mission-related and moral

    A. he just stood there gawping at Sara while she battered an innocent Kord Industries security guard -- I guess it was necessary that he do nothing except shout at her so as to demonstrate how out of control she was and thus how astonished everyone was? Though in actuality, Oliver's history and experience should mean that he is well equipped to deal with unexpected events and contingencies that come up in the field.

    B. He apparently lost all sense of moral compass and was ready to listen to his brand-new weasel campaign manager (whom he had never met before) and throw Laurel under the bus (to win a race for mayor in which, at the time, he was running unopposed...), despite his history with Laurel, including times when she had been there for him and his family [such as forgiving his sister Thea for killing her sister Sara; helping Thea deal with that situation by speaking some empowering words to the effect that tho' Malcolm had victimized her once that needn't mean she could not still chart her own course going forward by making her own moral decisions/choices; and giving Thea a home when Olicity hightailed it out of town]. Even his own sister Thea was forced to try to supply some kind of moral center for him re: the inadvisability of throwing a friend/ally under the bus

    3. The show can kill off morally grey, ruthless characters like Amanda all it wants, but that does not erase such people from the world. However, apparently new and improved Ollie can't handle such an opponent in any way that would allow him to still be standing at the end and to be heroic at the same time (I guess such characters would wipe the floor with him?), so best just not to ever present him with such an opponent in the future (that is, if the rationale was to help clean up and sanitize his "world" so he can be heroic in a pure light way). Like a sick patient with no immune system who must reside in a protected positive pressure ICU room, Ollie must be in a protected environment --- all black and white, no shades of grey --- b/c he just doesn't have what it takes to stand up to more complex and ambiguous characters/frenemies/foes that might force him to emerge as a more complex character than that of "pure" hero

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Kent View Post
    I feel like these moves are all consistent with the more "neutered" Ollie that we are being presented with (and which I don't like):

    1. Opening of S4, Oliver was reluctant to come back and help the team. Felicity was the hero. Ollie seemed not to even have a mission anymore (he sure never showed any evidence of even giving just the tiniest thought to his city or friends that he had left behind while living the good-suburban life in Ivy Town). The torch had been passed on: Felicity was the one who apparently had a sense of mission and needed a purpose in life. Meanwhile Ollie apparently spent the summer more concerned with learning to cook omelets and French chicken dishes; perhaps Ollie's new purpose/mission was to enter the contest for Master Chef? In addition to becoming Mr. Smoak of course ...

    2. For most of the season, Ollie has been a pretty soft target in fights. He has also shown a lack of leadership -- mission-related and moral

    A. he just stood there gawping at Sara while she battered an innocent Kord Industries security guard -- I guess it was necessary that he do nothing except shout at her so as to demonstrate how out of control she was and thus how astonished everyone was? Though in actuality, Oliver's history and experience should mean that he is well equipped to deal with unexpected events and contingencies that come up in the field.

    B. He apparently lost all sense of moral compass and was ready to listen to his brand-new weasel campaign manager (whom he had never met before) and throw Laurel under the bus (to win a race for mayor in which, at the time, he was running unopposed...), despite his history with Laurel, including times when she had been there for him and his family [such as forgiving his sister Thea for killing her sister Sara; helping Thea deal with that situation by speaking some empowering words to the effect that tho' Malcolm had victimized her once that needn't mean she could not still chart her own course going forward by making her own moral decisions/choices; and giving Thea a home when Olicity hightailed it out of town]. Even his own sister Thea was forced to try to supply some kind of moral center for him re: the inadvisability of throwing a friend/ally under the bus

    3. The show can kill off morally grey, ruthless characters like Amanda all it wants, but that does not erase such people from the world. However, apparently new and improved Ollie can't handle such an opponent in any way that would allow him to still be standing at the end and to be heroic at the same time (I guess such characters would wipe the floor with him?), so best just not to ever present him with such an opponent in the future (that is, if the rationale was to help clean up and sanitize his "world" so he can be heroic in a pure light way). Like a sick patient with no immune system who must reside in a protected positive pressure ICU room, Ollie must be in a protected environment --- all black and white, no shades of grey --- b/c he just doesn't have what it takes to stand up to more complex and ambiguous characters/frenemies/foes that might force him to emerge as a more complex character than that of "pure" hero
    I can say why that is concerning and well it is. Good point Shelby.

    Which another thing is they are so focused on making it lighter I wonder how that is going to affect the flashbacks because we've seen how they change the flashbacks to fit the current season.

  10. #25
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    The show may want Ollie and the Arrow series to be "sunnier" and be closer in tone to The Flash, but by moving in this direction they have moved away from what the show had been originally. As much as we may want Ollie to get back to his murkier, grey roots I don't think they would ever revert back to his S1 self for an extended period -- in the current, present timeline.

    Where this brighter mood simply won't fly is in the flashbacks.

    This is where they do need to rein in the creative temptation to "soften" or lighten the mood of flashback Ollie. That Ollie should be marching lock-step towards becoming S1 Hood, the one who dropped bodies without remorse. It's the flashbacks where I expect that he should be heading to a very dark place. As much as we might roll our eyes at current Ollie indulging in cupcakes and having a more "balanced" life as Ollie and GA, however fans view this -- none of this lightening-up stuff should surface or be retconned into the flashbacks. S4 Ollie may be a shadow of his S1 Hood self -- but the flashback Ollie should be, by choice or circumstances, be wading knee-deep into S1 Hood territory ... character and story-wise. If S4 Ollie is going to be glass-half-full in his heroism now, then flashback Ollie going into S5 should be entrenched into soul-searing territory.

    They can't pretend S1 didn't happen (though they may try to in the writing), that Hood existed, influenced what Ollie became and Ollie in the flashbacks must credibly become that vigilante -- whatever happens in the present timeline.

    While Waller's death made some sense to me re: Diggle and ARGUS-specific subplots, it is unfortunate that they had to kill off a convincingly ruthless character that served as a reminder that Ollie and his world were always hovering around morally grey turf. What I would say is, had they done a lot more with the Waller character over the past three seasons I would probably be more irked that they eliminated her. As it stood by A.W.O.L., Waller barely registered in S4 until this ep. and the last time she had significant parts were the eps. where she was involved in the Suicide Squad subplots and Ollie's S3 flashbacks. Even without the "movie embargo" issue, it doesn't look like they a) knew the potential of having someone as cunning and effective as Waller getting tangled in Team Arrow's business or b) didn't know what to do with the potential Waller had as a character or what she could represent thematically, on the series.

    If they actually used her, regularly, over the past 3+ seasons then I would be more upset they offed her. Since they haven't used her meaningfully since the S3 flashbacks, I just see it as unfortunate. For me, it hinges on what it means for Diggle and Lyla going into the season finale and to S5. If Diggle dies by the finale and Lyla fades into the S5 background, then Waller's death would have accomplished little for them.

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