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  1. #31
    Pirate King Backward Galaxy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DA_Champion View Post
    I'm sorry, but that second thing is totally different. When Luke called the lightsabre to his hand, he wasn't competing against Vader's force grip.
    When Luke called the lightsaber to his hand, he was half-dead and hanging upside down with a man-eating beast bearing down on him. If anything, Rey's feat was easier, because all she did was divert a saber that Kylo Ren was already moving with his Force powers. Rey also wasn't competing with Kylo for the saber. He didn't know she could do that, so he wasn't fighting her Force powers.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward Galaxy View Post
    When Luke called the lightsaber to his hand, he was half-dead and hanging upside down with a man-eating beast bearing down on him. If anything, Rey's feat was easier, because all she did was divert a saber that Kylo Ren was already moving with his Force powers. Rey also wasn't competing with Kylo for the saber. He didn't know she could do that, so he wasn't fighting her Force powers.
    Some points:

    1) Luke being upside down is irrelevant. I'm pretty sure people can feel and hold conversations when hanging upside down.
    2) Luke wasn't half-dead, he was asleep. While asleep, he did not pull out the lightsabre. Then he woke up. He pulled the lightsabre while awake.
    3) I saw Rey and Kylo competing for the lightsabre. They both pulled, and she pulled harder, because she's a more effective force user.
    4) How are you assuming that Kylo wasn't pulling hard due to him not knowing she was pulling the lightsabre?

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by DA_Champion View Post
    Do you actually thing all of this is because Rey is a girl?
    90% yes, 10% people who are upset the movie is a rehash of the OT.

    I'm also pretty sure that Max Landis started the "Rey is too skilled" argument, unless a few other people said it at the same time, he was arguing that early and he has enough of a voice to spread the idea. He has decent feminist bona fides doesn't he? It doesn't seem super-likely that he's just uncomfortable with females being competent.
    I really couldn't care less about Max Landis' opinion or his feminist bona fides. Feminists can be sexist and not be aware of it.

    Now, with respect to Rey doing in one movie what Luke did in three movies ... you're right. But Those three movies span a timeline of six years, during which Luke got training both on and offscreen. The offscreen training is implied by Luke's totally different appearance and style in Return of the Jedi, he just comes off as totally different at the start of that movie, he's a man now and not a boy. That implies that he trained more offscreen.
    And Luke during RoTJ would have destroyed Rey. Just absolutely destroyed her.

    We're talking about miniscule tricks she pulled off in this movie that people are using as examples of expertise.

    So really your comparison has to be between what Rey did in TFA and what Luke did in ANH.
    I would argue that what we're talking about is what Rey did in TFA compared to what Luke did before he met Yoda. And I think those two things are not just similar, I think they are comparable.

    I think what it comes down to is that A New Hope felt like an adventure, where we really travelled a great journey between the start and end of the movie. It was a magnificent plot where we saw some exciting worlds, a lot of stuff happened, so we could buy growth in the characters. TFA, even though it copies the plot, does not feel like much happened in it all, there's very little adventure (comparatively), just a lot of action and visuals.
    Really think about A New Hope. How many worlds did we visit in that film? What were the major set pieces? I think if you really took the time to break it down, you'd see not much difference. ANH is simply better told because 1970's George Lucas is a better storyteller than 2010's JJ Abrams.

    You mentioned that in the final fight, Kylo Ren was injured from a blaster hit, was emotionally crippled from killing his father (any basis for that?)
    It was in the script. I forget the line, but it mentions how Kylo is disturbed by the fact that he's still conflicted even after having killed Han. It's in there, my guess, as a note to the actor so Driver would know how to play it.

    and distracted by wanting to train Rey.
    I'm not arguing he was distracted by wanting to train Rey. I'm arguing he was pulling his punches, specifically the ones that would chop her head off.

    He would, however, likely be distracted by the fact that the planet was blowing up. I assume he'd be aware of that due to his connection to the Force.

    That may all be. If it is, it explains why Rey could stand a chance. All of this may be, but because the movie leading up to it had a ton of threads and a ton of plot details, it honestly didn't register me.
    Kylo speaks his desire to train Rey in a line of dialogue. You can't train someone you've chopped in half. The wound is also a plot point that harkens back to earlier in the film where Han is impressed by the incredible power of Chewie's bow weapon. That scene wasn't just comic relief. It was setting up the idea that when Chewie uses his bow weapon to shoot Kylo, it's a massive injury. They reinforce this by showing the blood in the snow. I don't know why it didn't register with you. You're not alone in that, as many people don't mention it at all when talking about the fight. But it's not only there, they make a point of both showing us and telling us.

    It's like reading a boring biology book, and there are twenty five additional facts per page. People are not going to internalize all that immediately.
    I did.

    As an example (sorry), in Man of Steel Clark infiltrates the military base because he overheard about the excavation on the radio. Do you think a lot of people missed that connection on first viewing? I'm sure many people. It's pretty decently explained, but because a lot of things were being explained, there was a high ratio of facts to drama, I suspect many did not get it.
    I got that part on first viewing. Once I saw you going to Man of Steel, I thought you were going to bring up Lois being brought onto Zod's ship.

    Anyway, Episode 8 has a great director so it will probably be very good.
    I agree.

    Episode 9 is from the director of Jurassic World so ummm.... Episode 9, aside from having a blue tint, will be about Rey outrunning Kylo Ren while wearing high heels, when the film concludes Rey will quit being a Jedi and decide to start a family instead. We'll get to see Fin caress some dying cute animals though so it will be ok.
    Jurassic World was one horrid freaking mess. This is one instance where I'm actually quite glad that the studio will probably have a lot of say over the story.
    Last edited by Backward Galaxy; 02-19-2016 at 04:56 AM.

  4. #34
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    You're very casual in dismissing people's reasons for not loving TFA. It's too easy to say that people just hate women.

    I didn't actively "hate it" personally, I just don't think it was great. I'm not sure if it's because of Rey. One horrible scene for me was when the starkiller base destroyed the Hosnian system. A whole lot is happening and none of it makes sense. You need to read Wookiepedia to understand the link between the Hosnian-based New Republic and the rebel alliance. Nobody needed Wookiepedia to follow A New Hope.

    In A New Hope we visited Tatooine, the Millenium Falcon, the Death Star, and Yavin IV. In The Force Awakens we visited Tatooine, the Millennium Falcon, the Death Star, Yavin IV and Maz' Cantina. I'm not sure if the first four places were genuinely better designed in the first movie, or simply more original.

    I do think setting -- a sense of place -- is important to Star Wars. It is actually possible to think up new settings. George Lucas did so in the prequels. Christopher Nolan did so Interstellar. Even the Riddick movies showed us new settings. When I watched TFA I didn't feel like I was watching a Galactic epic.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by DA_Champion View Post
    You're very casual in dismissing people's reasons for not loving TFA.
    I don't think I'm being casual about it. TFA is flawed. I just think people are harping on the wrong things.

    I didn't actively "hate it" personally, I just don't think it was great. I'm not sure if it's because of Rey. One horrible scene for me was when the starkiller base destroyed the Hosnian system. A whole lot is happening and none of it makes sense. You need to read Wookiepedia to understand the link between the Hosnian-based New Republic and the rebel alliance. Nobody needed Wookiepedia to follow A New Hope.
    The attack on Alderaan vs. the attack on the Hosnian system is an excellent example of a similar plot point that one film executed leagues better than the other. This, to me, is a totally legitimate gripe.

    I do think setting -- a sense of place -- is important to Star Wars. It is actually possible to think up new settings. George Lucas did so in the prequels. Christopher Nolan did so Interstellar. Even the Riddick movies showed us new settings. When I watched TFA I didn't feel like I was watching a Galactic epic.
    JJ had the same problem in his Star Trek movies. Despite being visually impressive, he somehow made both universes seem incredibly small. Again, this is another one of the things I think people should actually care about when criticizing the movie and comparing it to ANH.

  6. #36
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    I really wish they'd expand Leia's role going forward, assuming Carrie Fisher is up to it. I think that there's a tremendous opportunity there to turn her into a quasi-villain of sorts. I'm not saying they should turn her to the dark side or anything, but think about her life to this point...

    The Empire blew up her home planet of Alderaan.
    The Empire tortured her (albeit PG torture in ANH)
    She fought a Rebellion against the Empire
    The dark side has now taken her son and murdered the love of her life
    The bad guys have built 3 Death Stars and blown up multiple planets
    Her brother, the great Jedi Luke Skywalker, cut and ran

    I could see her character saying, "Enough is enough." I could totally see her wanting to just wipe out the Order, maybe even building a Death Star type weapon of her own to even the scales. Then, have Rey caught between a vengeful Leia and an evil Snoke/Ren with Luke hesitant to teach her and his teachings being the only thing that could plausibly help her bring peace.

  7. #37
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    It's hard to see a Disney movie have a classically good character turn evil.

    I thought a while back that Leila should have PTSD by now, but I don't think that's ever going on screen.

  8. #38
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    Well, like I said, it's not like she'd fall to the dark side. Shed be the classic good guy general who has just gone over the deep end.

  9. #39
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    I wonder what Luke's idea of training would be. His experience was vastly different than what we were exposed to in the prequels. I never questioned the fact that he was on Dagobah for, at most, a few weeks until I saw younglings in the Jedi Temple bouncing their little sabers back and forth like a pendulum to block laser blasts.

  10. #40
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    I'm not sure if I thought about Rey being overpowered while watching the movie.

    I did think though that Kylo Ren might simply have mediocre Force sensitivity. We have not seen this much in Star Wars but it is sensible that some people be sensitive to the force but at a lower level. That was the impression I got of Kylo. It's somewhat contradicted by him stopping the blaster, but the fact is Rey was able to block his mind, Finn dueled with him a little bit, and Rey comprehensively defeated him in a lightsabre fight. Throughout the movie Kylo doesn't look like he's in command, in strong contrast to Vader who comes off as formidable. There's also the fact that Snoke isn't fully invested in Kylo Ren, he's on the lookout for a better Sith.

    I'm not sure if that was the intended point.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward Galaxy View Post
    I really couldn't care less about Max Landis' opinion or his feminist bona fides. Feminists can be sexist and not be aware of it.
    When did you start hating Landis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Backward Galaxy View Post
    Kylo speaks his desire to train Rey in a line of dialogue. You can't train someone you've chopped in half. The wound is also a plot point that harkens back to earlier in the film where Han is impressed by the incredible power of Chewie's bow weapon. That scene wasn't just comic relief. It was setting up the idea that when Chewie uses his bow weapon to shoot Kylo, it's a massive injury. They reinforce this by showing the blood in the snow. I don't know why it didn't register with you. You're not alone in that, as many people don't mention it at all when talking about the fight. But it's not only there, they make a point of both showing us and telling us.
    You're right it's clearly in the movie, yet I and a lot of people didn't make the connection. I wish we understood why. It's probably an interesting point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Backward Galaxy View Post
    Once I saw you going to Man of Steel, I thought you were going to bring up Lois being brought onto Zod's ship.

    I considered it, but ....

    1) There is a reason given for Lois being on Zod's ship, but it's given *after* the whole subplot of Lois on the ship has been completed, so that undermines the analogy. Lois says they scanned her brain. Maybe some audience members went "oh !" but by that point they were already, apparently quite frequently, taken out of the movie by a WTF moment.
    2) We had extensive debates about whether or not the reason made any sense. If the reason doesn't make sense, it's less likely to register with people, people can remember more easily when they can understand. In contrast, Kylo being weakened by a blaster hit is, on paper at least, straightforward to understand. All the more reason why I'm confused I and others didn't make the link.
    3) I thought picking a point that had not been exhaustively bickered over might be more amicable.
    Last edited by DA_Champion; 02-20-2016 at 01:37 AM.

  12. #42
    Pirate King Backward Galaxy's Avatar
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    I don't hate Landis. Actually, I think many have been unfairly harsh towards him. But I think he's dead wrong with respect to Rey, and I think he is in a position to know better, so it frustrates me a little that he's almost become the spokesperson for being down on her character.

    I think I may be coming down too heavily in favor of TFA, so I want to reiterate that I believe the film has significant third act problems. I think it is particularly telling, for example, that Han actually has a line where he says something like "So how do we blow it up? There's always a way to blow these things up." That's a line out of a parody, not a serious endeavor. It's as if they're asking us to just roll with it, and it's kinda crappy.

    I just think it's unfair that Rey is getting ripped apart when she is essentially just Luke 2.0 sans the boxers.

    But I expect RJ to deliver a far more original and superior film. I expect VIII to be the best of this trilogy, just as Empire was the best of the OT.
    Last edited by Backward Galaxy; 02-21-2016 at 04:31 PM.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by nate-dog1701d View Post
    I wonder what Luke's idea of training would be. His experience was vastly different than what we were exposed to in the prequels. I never questioned the fact that he was on Dagobah for, at most, a few weeks until I saw younglings in the Jedi Temple bouncing their little sabers back and forth like a pendulum to block laser blasts.
    Another reason to believe that using the Force to do certain basic tricks is actually pretty easy. Becoming a Jedi isn't just mastering how to move stuff with your mind. That might even only be step 1.

  14. #44
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    It's somewhat of a contradiction with the prequels where we see that becoming a Jedi takes a lifetime of training.

    One can reconcile that by saying that Luke and Rey are both elite talents, they can become great Jedi with relative easy, kind of like a math prodigy solving differential equations when she's 13.

    In Revenge of the Sith, we see Palpatine easily off three Jedi, and then very slowly lose to Mace Windu (until Anakin saves him). One can interpret that (retroactively) is showing that the other three were run-of-the-mill, mediocre Jedi, maybe with low natural aptitude and a lifetime of training.

  15. #45
    Pirate King Backward Galaxy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DA_Champion View Post
    It's somewhat of a contradiction with the prequels where we see that becoming a Jedi takes a lifetime of training.

    One can reconcile that by saying that Luke and Rey are both elite talents, they can become great Jedi with relative easy, kind of like a math prodigy solving differential equations when she's 13.

    In Revenge of the Sith, we see Palpatine easily off three Jedi, and then very slowly lose to Mace Windu (until Anakin saves him). One can interpret that (retroactively) is showing that the other three were run-of-the-mill, mediocre Jedi, maybe with low natural aptitude and a lifetime of training.
    I think that the problem is people are equating "being a Jedi" with whether or not you are an expert at using the Force to manipulate things and how good you are with a lightsaber. A lightsaber is a sword. Padawans can use it to deflect blaster bolts, so is that really what it means to be a full-blown Jedi? If you equate being a Jedi with being able to move objects with your mind, wield a lightsaber, and trick a guy into letting you go, then I can see why people would be aggravated that Rey can do these things with no formal training. I just don't think that's what it's about, and I think the OT told us that in no uncertain terms. Luke had one lesson with Obi-Wan and maybe a couple with Yoda. He became a Jedi not when he beat Vader in a sword fight, but when he put his sword down.

    I equate being a Jedi with a mentality. The most important lesson Yoda tried to teach Luke was when Luke couldn't lift the X-Wing out of the swamp. "I don't believe it," he said to Yoda. "That is why you fail." It's the difference, I think, between a vacation bible school teacher and a monk.

    Maybe Rey should have tried to kill Kylo, if only to show that she had anger issues she would need to conquer in future episodes, ones that would make her vulnerable to the dark side.

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