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  1. #16
    The Force is Strong!!! darkphoenix21's Avatar
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    Looks like they're continuing right from the end of TFA. Maybe they finish off that mountain top scene and than go into a training montage, which leads to a time lapse of some period (a few weeks, months, etc...)

  2. #17
    Ming-the Merciless Glove's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkphoenix21 View Post
    Looks like they're continuing right from the end of TFA. Maybe they finish off that mountain top scene and than go into a training montage, which leads to a time lapse of some period (a few weeks, months, etc...)
    Rey seemed to do alright without any training at all.

  3. #18
    Pirate King Backward Galaxy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glove View Post
    Rey seemed to do alright without any training at all.
    Luke blew up the Death Star his first day in an X-Wing after one lightsaber lesson from Obi-Wan. He called the lightsaber to his hand in Empire BEFORE Yoda trained him in the ways of the Force.

    People really need to let it go about Rey being able to do too much. Every criticism you can hurl at Rey can also be applied to Luke.

  4. #19
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward Galaxy View Post
    Luke blew up the Death Star his first day in an X-Wing after one lightsaber lesson from Obi-Wan. He called the lightsaber to his hand in Empire BEFORE Yoda trained him in the ways of the Force.

    People really need to let it go about Rey being able to do too much. Every criticism you can hurl at Rey can also be applied to Luke.
    Luke still had some training. Rey, as far as we know, had none.

    God bless you! God bless everyone!

  5. #20
    Pirate King Backward Galaxy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagenspear View Post
    Luke still had some training. Rey, as far as we know, had none.

    God bless you! God bless everyone!
    Luke had a conversation with Obi-Wan while on the plane ride to Alderaan. I'd hardly call that training. Rey, on the other hand, lives on her own on a dangerous world and has presumably had to fight for her life before. She also has a backstory shrouded in mystery to the point where it's possible she had training as a child. We can't say the same about Luke. We know for a fact he didn't have Jedi training as a child.

    He had one lesson and all he learned how to do was to deflect a blaster shot with a lightsaber. He didn't learn how to use the Jedi mind trick. He didn't learn how to will objects to his hand. We saw him do things at an expert level with no training with respect to the particular skill he employed. People are just upset because Rey is a girl and she beat Kylo Ren... who had been shot, was emotionally compromised by having just killed his own father, had already fought Finn, and was holding back so he could offer to train her.

  6. #21
    Ming-the Merciless Glove's Avatar
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    Luke learned about the "Jedi Mind Trick" from Obi-Wan at the entrance to Mos Eisley. Remember, "These aren't the droids your looking for." Rey didn't even know that it existed and was performing it on Daniel Craig's Stormtrooper. Absolutely correct about NOT much for training on the ride to Alderaan. I'm sure that there was a time lapse between "A New Hope" and "Empire" where he could have picked up a few things from Force Ghost Obi-Wan...like say moving things with his mind. Obi-Wan did speak to him during his attack on the first Death Star of three. Darth Vader was taking it easy on Luke during their battle on Cloud City. Fighting him with one hand and the fact that he was his son and would try to convert him. Luke did have pilot skills from what we learned in "A New Hope". Rey just automatically seemed to know that she could do the "Jedi Mind Trick" and did it. She seemed to be an excellent pilot even though she was a simple scavenger. "The Force Awakens" never revealed her to be anything more before she flew the Milleneum Falcon. The only thing that could be possible in my mind...her parents, say Luke or a very powerful Force user trained her while she was very young, then kind of mind-wiped her before dropping her off on Jakku to keep her identity secret. Her training just started to resurface as she came into contact with another Force user. This is why the Prequels are so much better. Jedi spent their entire lives learning to use the force. It's really hard for me to watch everything after Episode III.

  7. #22
    Pirate King Backward Galaxy's Avatar
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    If you enjoy the prequels the we are on a different wavelength. I think those films are horrid.

    We can't assume ghost Obi taught Luke anything between the movies. If he could, why send him to Yoda at all? It didn't happen on screen, regardless, so it didn't happen.

    Luke also didn't learn the mind trick from Obi. He simply became aware of its existence. I'm aware of the existence of chess. Doesn't mean I know how to play.

    Besides that, Rey was aware that the Force could be used to compel behavior. Kylo Ren tried to force her to give up the map. So she knew just as much about that trick as Luke, if not more, since she actually experienced it being used on her. She felt it whereas Luke only observed it.

  8. #23
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward Galaxy View Post
    Luke had a conversation with Obi-Wan while on the plane ride to Alderaan. I'd hardly call that training. Rey, on the other hand, lives on her own on a dangerous world and has presumably had to fight for her life before. She also has a backstory shrouded in mystery to the point where it's possible she had training as a child. We can't say the same about Luke. We know for a fact he didn't have Jedi training as a child.

    He had one lesson and all he learned how to do was to deflect a blaster shot with a lightsaber. He didn't learn how to use the Jedi mind trick. He didn't learn how to will objects to his hand. We saw him do things at an expert level with no training with respect to the particular skill he employed. People are just upset because Rey is a girl and she beat Kylo Ren... who had been shot, was emotionally compromised by having just killed his own father, had already fought Finn, and was holding back so he could offer to train her.
    The deflecting with a lightsaber was specifically based on the force. That's why he had his eyes covered. And he wouldn't have even thought to use the force had Obi-Wan not told him to. He didn't know how to do a jedi mind trick until the third movie and he was very weak in willing objects to his hand in ESB. He was able to will something to hit a mark, after himself having known how to shoot womprats. Rey accomplished every one of Luke's skills that took him 3 movies to master in a single one. We can talk forever about what could have happened with Rey on Jakku or during her childhood, but this movie doesn't specify it and we don't see her use the force before her scene with Kylo, making it an empty point in the discussion, not that she should know how to do it really anyway, because she has no real memory of it, as far as we know.

    God bless you! God bless everyone!

  9. #24
    Pirate King Backward Galaxy's Avatar
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    What movie did you watch?

    Rey uses the Force to call the saber, mind trick Craigtrooper, and help her to defeat Kylo. That's basically it. Luke calls the saber with no training in ESB. He uses the mind trick in Jedi with us having to assume he learned it from Yoda since we never actually see Yoda teach him how. I've already explained how she beats Kylo.

    If anything, people should be more angry that she's a Luke clone, literally doing exactly everything he did.

    We know Rey can fight. She learns the mind trick from having experienced Kylo performing it on her. And once she realizes the Force is something she can use, willing the saber to her hand makes sense. Maz also senses that Rey has always known the Force was there and accessible on some level.
    Last edited by Backward Galaxy; 02-17-2016 at 03:48 PM.

  10. #25
    Pirate King Backward Galaxy's Avatar
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    Luke's actual Jedi training in the OT amounts to a plane ride with Kenobi and (at best) a long weekend with Yoda on Dagobah. That's it. And none of that made him a Jedi.

    Becoming a Jedi for Luke wasn't about how to use the powers. It was about learning to become a beacon of light in a galaxy that had been consumed by darkness. He didn't kill Vader. He didn't give in to his anger. He threw down his saber in the face of the most powerful evil bastard in the universe. That's going to be Rey's journey as well. It's not about powers...at all. That's why Lucas didn't really care about showing Luke learning how to do every little Force thing like episodes of Flash or Smallville. Abrams did the exact same thing with Rey.

    But Rey is a girl. So people got pissed.
    Last edited by Backward Galaxy; 02-17-2016 at 04:16 PM.

  11. #26
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward Galaxy View Post
    What movie did you watch?

    Rey uses the Force to call the saber, mind trick Craigtrooper, and help her to defeat Kylo. That's basically it. Luke calls the saber with no training in ESB. He uses the mind trick in Jedi with us having to assume he learned it from Yoda since we never actually see Yoda teach him how. I've already explained how she beats Kylo.

    If anything, people should be more angry that she's a Luke clone, literally doing exactly everything he did.

    We know Rey can fight. She learns the mind trick from having experienced Kylo performing it on her. And once she realizes the Force is something she can use, willing the saber to her hand makes sense. Maz also senses that Rey has always known the Force was there and accessible on some level.
    Luke had a lot of trouble calling the saber. You can't learn something by someone doing it to you. That's like saying me being shot makes it so I know how to shoot. Luke gained these abilities over the course of three movies. Luke never accomplished them in a single movie. Maz saying she knows the force doesn't equal her being able acquire the skills she does as quickly as she does.

    God bless you! God bless everyone!

  12. #27
    Pirate King Backward Galaxy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagenspear View Post
    Luke had a lot of trouble calling the saber.
    So did Rey. The thing didn't fly up immediately out of the snow. It took a few seconds. It was practically a mirror image of the scene in the ice cave.

    You can't learn something by someone doing it to you. That's like saying me being shot makes it so I know how to shoot.
    No, that's just you declaring that the force operates like a bullet, which you don't know is true.

    Kylo tried to use the mind trick to pull the information from Rey's mind. At first, it worked. Evidence of this is that he knew about the island. However, as he continued to probe, she tried to resist, and as the scene wore on it became harder for him to get anything from her. She even started getting stuff from him. He opened up a pathway into her mind she didn't know existed. Realizing now that such paths exist, and that she can even walk down them herself, she realized she could do it to others. He built a bridge to her mind. She realized that the bridge works both ways. She then hypothesized that she could create a bridge of her own to someone else's mind. She tried. It didn't work. She tried again. It did work.

    Maybe it would help to think of it more like getting a tattoo. A lot of people pass out when they get their first tattoo. It isn't because the pain of it is greater than any pain they've ever felt before. It's because the pain is different and the body doesn't know how to respond. However, once you wake up, you are suddenly more tolerant because the body now understands what is happening to itself as well as how to cope. You don't pass out again when the artist continues with the tattoo. This is how I interpret what happened with Rey. The experience of feeling it happen to her, and her body figuring out that it can resist it, is how she learned. Keep in mind that this wasn't her first experience with the Force being applied to her. Kylo had stunned her unconscious in the forest previously. This was her second go around.

    Another example: If I'm in the audience and I watch a magician walk on water, I see him do the trick the same way Luke saw Obi-Wan use the mind trick on the stormtrooper. Doesn't mean I know how to do it. But if the magician pulls me from the audience and takes me out onto the water so now I'm walking on the water with him, and I look down and see a platform just under the surface of the water, now I know how to do the trick.

    Luke gained these abilities over the course of three movies.
    No, Luke used them over the course of three movies. There's a difference. No one taught Luke how to move a lightsaber before he did it. And no one taught Luke how to use the Jedi mind trick before we saw him use it. The number of films is irrelevant. The fact is that he became a powerful Force user from two lessons and ended up using powers we never actually saw him get taught how to use.

    Maz saying she knows the force doesn't equal her being able acquire the skills she does as quickly as she does.
    It's not like she was jumping off walls like Yoda and throwing lightning at people. She did two rather small things and won a fight against an injured guy who wasn't trying to kill her in the first place.

    Episodes VIII and IX are not going to be about Rey learning knew Force tricks. And if they were, they'd be awful movies. Episodes VIII and IX are going to be about Rey learning to be a better person, a leader, and how to be a powerful person with the self-control to resist the urge to give in to hatred.
    Last edited by Backward Galaxy; 02-18-2016 at 08:09 AM.

  13. #28
    Incurable Postaholic DA_Champion's Avatar
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    A theory I heard is that Rey is a clone of Luke made from Luke's hand, the one that fell at Bespin.

  14. #29
    Incurable Postaholic DA_Champion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward Galaxy View Post
    Luke blew up the Death Star his first day in an X-Wing after one lightsaber lesson from Obi-Wan. He called the lightsaber to his hand in Empire BEFORE Yoda trained him in the ways of the Force.

    People really need to let it go about Rey being able to do too much. Every criticism you can hurl at Rey can also be applied to Luke.
    I'm sorry, but that second thing is totally different. When Luke called the lightsabre to his hand, he wasn't competing against Vader's force grip.

  15. #30
    Incurable Postaholic DA_Champion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward Galaxy View Post
    Luke's actual Jedi training in the OT amounts to a plane ride with Kenobi and (at best) a long weekend with Yoda on Dagobah. That's it. And none of that made him a Jedi.

    Becoming a Jedi for Luke wasn't about how to use the powers. It was about learning to become a beacon of light in a galaxy that had been consumed by darkness. He didn't kill Vader. He didn't give in to his anger. He threw down his saber in the face of the most powerful evil bastard in the universe. That's going to be Rey's journey as well. It's not about powers...at all. That's why Lucas didn't really care about showing Luke learning how to do every little Force thing like episodes of Flash or Smallville. Abrams did the exact same thing with Rey.

    But Rey is a girl. So people got pissed.
    Do you actually thing all of this is because Rey is a girl?

    Come on man. Seriously. Though it's always possible that a huge segment of geek culture are just bigots, it's also possible they have different priorities. It may also be the "Tangible details" thing pointed out by Film Critic Hulk, that what people know best is that they like or don't like something, which does not mean they give you the right reasons.

    I'm also pretty sure that Max Landis started the "Rey is too skilled" argument, unless a few other people said it at the same time, he was arguing that early and he has enough of a voice to spread the idea. He has decent feminist bona fides doesn't he? It doesn't seem super-likely that he's just uncomfortable with females being competent.

    Now, with respect to Rey doing in one movie what Luke did in three movies ... you're right. But Those three movies span a timeline of six years, during which Luke got training both on and offscreen. The offscreen training is implied by Luke's totally different appearance and style in Return of the Jedi, he just comes off as totally different at the start of that movie, he's a man now and not a boy. That implies that he trained more offscreen.

    So really your comparison has to be between what Rey did in TFA and what Luke did in ANH. It may be similar. It may also be that Rey has greater natural talent. I think what it comes down to is that A New Hope felt like an adventure, where we really travelled a great journey between the start and end of the movie. It was a magnificent plot where we saw some exciting worlds, a lot of stuff happened, so we could buy growth in the characters. TFA, even though it copies the plot, does not feel like much happened in it all, there's very little adventure (comparatively), just a lot of action and visuals.

    You mentioned that in the final fight, Kylo Ren was injured from a blaster hit, was emotionally crippled from killing his father (any basis for that?) and distracted by wanting to train Rey. That may all be. If it is, it explains why Rey could stand a chance. All of this may be, but because the movie leading up to it had a ton of threads and a ton of plot details, it honestly didn't register me.

    It's like reading a boring biology book, and there are twenty five additional facts per page. People are not going to internalize all that immediately.

    As an example (sorry), in Man of Steel Clark infiltrates the military base because he overheard about the excavation on the radio. Do you think a lot of people missed that connection on first viewing? I'm sure many people. It's pretty decently explained, but because a lot of things were being explained, there was a high ratio of facts to drama, I suspect many did not get it.

    Anyway, Episode 8 has a great director so it will probably be very good. Episode 9 is from the director of Jurassic World so ummm.... Episode 9, aside from having a blue tint, will be about Rey outrunning Kylo Ren while wearing high heels, when the film concludes Rey will quit being a Jedi and decide to start a family instead. We'll get to see Fin caress some dying cute animals though so it will be ok.
    Last edited by DA_Champion; 02-19-2016 at 03:53 AM.

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