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Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017)

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  • Originally posted by President_Luthor
    The studio's not innocent either as they played some part in fueling years of speculation. They wanted to generate buzz, they can't be surprised when some fans put up speculation vids on YouTube raking in thousands of hits. Accurate or not, some fans take such content as gospel instead of with a grain of salt.
    Whoever decided that Rian Johnson had carte blanche to do whatever he wanted with the story is also to blame, IMO. Because when it comes down to it, why did some fans feel let down by the direction some storylines took? Because this is a movie trilogy where the first movie introduced a couple of threads and the second movie just brushed them aside because its writer just didn't think they were important enough. For example:
    [SPOILER]
    - TFA leads the viewer to believe that Snoke is someone important to the story and TLJ kills him off without even bothering to explore his story. I have no doubt that some fans were upset that Snoke didn't prove to be Plagueis and what not, but they are probably a small minority. The biggest disappointment is getting invested in a Big Bad who proved to be less intriguing and developed than General Grievous.
    - Rey's parents being nobodies works just fine. If you overlook the fact that she had a Force vision in TFA (ignited by Luke's lightsaber) that clearly alludes to her being connected to Luke or Obi Wan in some way. Or Maz Kanata telling her that Luke's lightsaber called to her for a reason. Speaking of Maz, I suspect we will never find out how she got her hands on that lightsaber either.
    [/SPOILER]

    So I don't think fans were wrong to speculate. They were encouraged to do so by The Force Awakens, only for its sequel to laugh in their face for doing so. So I think it's something deeper than just fanboys throwing tantrums because Snoke and Rey didn't prove to be who they predicted.

    Originally posted by President_Luthor
    TLJ isnt quite ESB's calibre, but for RT users to rate it lower than some of the prequel movies -- I think the "truth" lies in the midpoint between the fawning critics and the fans' almost savage reviews.
    Just a case of different strokes, IMO. Personally, I always thought people were too harsh on the prequels, especially episodes 2 and 3. So it doesn't surprise me that some people enjoyed at least those 2 movies more than The Last Jedi. At least the prequels were a more coherent trilogy than the one we've gotten from Disney until now.

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    • Originally posted by CKent/KalEl
      Well, wow, another childhood love blown to shreds. This movie is Star Wars yet it is kind of not. They should not have made old characters return. This franchise would have been much better if they just said: you see kids that galaxy far far away is quite large and these bland new heroes are fighting their own battle in a farther corner of it. Or just make a 200 year jump after the death of the original characters, that would have made more fracking sense. The way our lord and savior Baphomet decided to handle this beloved franchise that he bought to toy with so he can further fill his pockets with money is nothing but insulting. While watching this movie your tummy will be filled with a chilling realization that everything you ever loved will be bought and perverted by soul sucking demons and then you'll get old and die.
      That would have been my preference too. Bring back the droids because they've been a fixture in every Star Wars movie, but keep the main characters fron the original trilogy away. Especially if you are not interested in doing justice to who they were (at least in Luke and Han's case - Leia was written well in both movies). Rey, Finn and Poe shouldn't have needed the original characters to pass the torch to them. It's funny that The Last Jedi's meta message to the audience is "Let the past die", yet it was the studio that brought back Han, Luke and Leia and featured them prominently in the first 2 movies of the new trilogy. I guess the actual message was "Let the past die, but only after your nostalgia has lined our pockets with money".

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      • I don't think "Let the past die" is the message of the TLJ. That's one of Kylo Ren's lines. Kylo Ren is the bad guy. The film and filmmaker are thus telling us that's NOT the message of the film. The bad guy's stance is wrong by default.

        I think the message of the film is more along the lines of "Let the past inform, but not limit or consume the future".

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        • Regarding [SPOILER]Rey's parents: I'm under the impression that Kylo Ren was lying about that. To me, it just seemed way too easy to say that when the truth is there's more to that story than what was told to her and us as the audience that they were just random junkers who sold her off for cash.[/SPOILER]

          At the same time [SPOILER]it would be perfectly fitting with the continuity of the Star Wars movies that all 3 main characters (Anakin, Luke, Rey) from all the trilogies started off from the very bottom on a desert planet with little to look forward to, being very in-tune with the Force and eventually getting swept off into a big galaxy-wide adventure.[/SPOILER]
          Last edited by AsteroidMike; 12-21-2017, 07:46 AM.

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          • Originally posted by AsteroidMike
            Regarding [SPOILER]Rey's parents: I'm under the impression that Kylo Ren was lying about that. To me, it just seemed way too easy to say that when the truth is there's more to that story than what was told to her and us as the audience that they were just random junkers who sold her off for cash.[/SPOILER]
            Rian Johnson said that he wrote it [SPOILER]as Kylo Ren telling the truth. Now, JJ might turn around and change it, much the same way Johnson didn't really adhere to everything in TFA. But that's the original intention of the man who wrote it.[/SPOILER]

            Personally, I like it. It's important because of how [SPOILER]Kylo says (paraphrasing) "I'm a Skywalker. You're a nobody. You have no place in this story without me." And I think one of the main points of this film is that anyone can matter. It doesn't matter where you come from. You don't have to be a Skywalker. You can be special going forward. So, I think it works.[/SPOILER]

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            • I wasnt the biggest fan of the prequels but they were coherent (painfully so at times) in getting from A to B to C. Anakin's journey in them wasn't so great for a variety of reasons, but Obi Wan's was actually good. Ep. III was the strongest of the prequels, partly because I saw I and II as weaker.

              Snoke might have been a bigger issue for me if he had been a more compeling antagonist from the start. He wasnt, esp in TFA. He was a disembodied figure who gave Kylo his marching orders in VII, hence my indifference at the mystery surrounding his roots, Kylo connection, etc. I do get why such questions might bother some fans (and a LOT it seems) but I can't say he fascinated me as a villain to such a degree. It would be nice to learn a bit more about him, but it's not keeping me awake at night either.

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              • Originally posted by Backward Galaxy
                Rian Johnson said that he wrote it [SPOILER]as Kylo Ren telling the truth. Now, JJ might turn around and change it, much the same way Johnson didn't really adhere to everything in TFA. But that's the original intention of the man who wrote it.[/SPOILER]

                Personally, I like it. It's important because of how [SPOILER]Kylo says (paraphrasing) "I'm a Skywalker. You're a nobody. You have no place in this story without me." And I think one of the main points of this film is that anyone can matter. It doesn't matter where you come from. You don't have to be a Skywalker. You can be special going forward. So, I think it works.[/SPOILER]

                I definitely liked the notion that [SPOILER]"anyone can matter" in this universe and if that's the case regarding her parents, she's just a regular person who's Force sensitive. Not the first time in Star Wars a main character has fairly normal parents but is Force sensitive, look at Ezra on Rebels. Plus it's not a predictable character route to go since tons of people thought she was a Skywalker or a Kenobi or something when it's neither. Hell, the kid at the very end of the movie might have the same story. [/SPOILER]

                Regardless I'll be seeing this a second time to see if there's anything I missed and to see if I feel the same way about things.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by President_Luthor
                  Snoke might have been a bigger issue for me if he had been a more compeling antagonist from the start. He wasnt, esp in TFA. He was a disembodied figure who gave Kylo his marching orders in VII, hence my indifference at the mystery surrounding his roots, Kylo connection, etc. I do get why such questions might bother some fans (and a LOT it seems) but I can't say he fascinated me as a villain to such a degree. It would be nice to learn a bit more about him, but it's not keeping me awake at night either.
                  Therein likes the problem with both TFA and TLJ, for me. One movie introduced a *seemingly* important character without delving into his backstory and motives at all and the other rendered him completely pointless because it was an easier option than embellishing his story. Either way, we are dealing with an indifferent character who's ultimately perceived by most viewers as a waste of time. Which is never a badge of honor on any film.
                  Last edited by costas22; 12-21-2017, 11:44 AM.

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                  • Yeah, I feel that this has become the case with Snoke. It's unfortunate considering his supposed mentoring of Kylo. But in the Disney SW universe, it seems mentoring, training of Force users etc. isn't as big of a deal.

                    If Snoke was supposed to be the new trilogy's proxy or even an upgrade for Emperor Palpatine, they missed the mark. He's got many of the superficial trappings of the Emperor -- red cloaked bodyguards, legions under his control, a love/hate relationship with a conflicted apprentice and ambitions to turn or destroy a perceived Force rival/Chosen One. Beyond this checklist, he was kind of just there.

                    Maybe they'll address Snoke's backstory in IX if its relevant to Kylo's story, but after two eps. it's almost: why bother. Some fans may think he's awesome, but I feel the consensus is that the Emperor is still cooler and more of a badass (prequel trade disputes aside, lol) than Snoke is.

                    Rey developing mad Force skills with little formal guidance (this emerged even back in TFA), and Luke's own journey post-ROTJ would be other issues where I do see where the fans are coming from. They may not be the dealbreakers for me they appear to be with others, but at minimum they do raise legitimate questions that can't be dismissed as mere griping from fans.

                    Mark Hamill initially had misgivings about how Luke's journey would play out in TLJ, and no one can say he doesn't 'get' Luke. He knows the guy better than anyone.

                    From the interviews now coming out, he goes back to the notion that this new trilogy is no longer about Skywalker or his family tree and he had to wrap his mind around that idea and accept how it unfolded.

                    This was even the case back in TFA, where he had wanted Luke and Leia to be there when Han died, but he had to reconcile himself to the fact that this moment was more for Kylo's journey and even for Rey, than as a moment for the legacy characters -- as cool as it might have been to see the band together one last time.

                    It was more important for it to be a "Kylo moment" than as a fleeting reunion moment for Luke and friends. The former was a stepping stone and defining checkpoint in Kylo's journey; the latter would have been a cool easter egg for longtime fans, but it might have undercùt the importance of the moment, with all focus instead on the original trio.

                    Maybe the movie didn't have to literally spoon-feed the 'passing of the torch' idea to fans ... but this was always the trilogy's objective. The way it played out storywise will probably be thrashed out by fans for years to come.

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                    • The Last Jedi: Better than Justice League.

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                      • I'm late to this party but it looks like you guys have covered nearly all the bases. Prior to seeing the movie, I was curious about why fans hated it, and I knew that the general analysis was that "the fans are racist Trump supporters, they're unhappy because the movie has strong female and minority characters."

                        That's not it really. TLJ has a lot of weak humor, a lot of plot holes, and many narrative problems.
                        1) The fact that hyperspace ramming can cut through any ship like scissors through paper means that it should have been easy to blow up both Death Stars.
                        2) If Snoke's ship was only tracking the resistance flagship then the other resistance ships should have warped out to hyperspace rather than dying, Admiral Ackbar included.
                        3) The movie also ends with the resistance reduced to 25 people and the Falcon, and from that Poe Dameron says that they're going to light the candle whose fire will liberate the galaxy. The truth is that they're at risk of being wiped out by a single tie fighter.

                        There's also some other weirdness. I think that the tug-of-war between Admiral Holdo and Poe Dameron is supposed to be a metaphor for mansplaining. I'm glad to see mansplaining critiqued, but not in a Star Wars movie. Sexism shouldn't be defeated in a Star Wars movie as it should never rise there in the first place, this is supposed to be a idealistic fantasy world. Similarly to Rey's parents being alcoholics ... why does there need to be alcoholism in Star Wars?

                        Now in spite of this I did kind of enjoy the movie. It's not a great movie, but it's a passable one, on par with most of the MCU for example. They did build some new settings like the salt planet, that was fun. We got to see some cute animals. The musical score was good. I think that Luke becoming a depressed hermit makes sense, and I respect nods made to Rashomon. There was some cleverness in how Kylo killed Snoke, and I like that the red guards appeared to be exceptional fighters.

                        Moving forward, I'm not sure what they can do with Episode 9. There's no resistance at all, but maybe Abrams will fast forward two years and suddenly the resistance will have 200 warships lol. Kylo Ren is the supreme leader and Hux is his subordinate, but he may try and rebel, or alternatively Run will not have the administrative skills to manage the first order. Perhaps another Sith will come along to avenge Snoke, I don't know.

                        There's a solution in the EU that Abrams won't use: The Katana fleet. It's an old republic fleet of ~200 warships that vanished. It can be run by a small crew as it's a well-coordinated fleet. If the resistance finds it then they're a fighting force again.

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                        • My ranking of SW movies:

                          1) A New Hope, The Empire Strikes Back (tie)
                          3) The Return of the Jedi
                          4) Rogue One
                          5) The Phantom Menace
                          6) The Revenge of the Sith
                          7) The Force Awakens, The Last Jedi (tie)
                          9) The Attack of the Clones

                          It's difficult to see where these movies can go from here as Abrams and Johnson have carpet bombed the continuity into meaninglessness. Abrams ruined things by blowing up the Republic, and then Johnson did so by eliminating the resistance and discarding all of Abrams' world building.

                          I wonder if R2D2 and C3PO will show up in the Han Solo origins movie?

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                          • The Rebels cartoon show deal with the Rebellion in it's infancy. They could go that route, with Rey as lead recruiter.

                            I'm not sure how that cleanly wraps up a trilogy, but who knows? They might not care about that anymore.

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                            • The drop for the second weekend was 69%. Pretty much on par with Batman v Superman's decond weekend drop. I guess jokes aren't always a hit with the audience, regardless of how mesmerized the critics are with them.

                              Don't know what Disney's box office target was for TLJ, but it will probably struggle to meet it.

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                              • Originally posted by costas22
                                The drop for the second weekend was 69%. Pretty much on par with Batman v Superman's decond weekend drop. I guess jokes aren't always a hit with the audience, regardless of how mesmerized the critics are with them.

                                Don't know what Disney's box office target was for TLJ, but it will probably struggle to meet it.
                                Yeah the jokes were really bad. What was up with Poe Dameron prank calling a star destroyer? Why not allow the viewers to enjoy the movie?

                                What lessons will Disney take home from this?

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