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  1. #256
    Mad Man with a Box! HalJordan4184's Avatar
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    The problem with the Rebel Alliance using Kamikaze tactics, is though it may win a battle or three, it would end up costing them the war. Haldo's ship wasn't even able to totally destroy Snoke's flag ship. It was still standing at the end. Throwing your X Wings and Capital ships at large targets could eventually cripple the enemy, if their fleet is significantly smaller than yours. From everything the series leads up to believe, the Rebels are a smaller, ill equipped band. The Empire has the full might of a galactic military behind it. Even if you start ramming the Naval fleet of the empire, or even First Order, the Rebels/Resistance don't have the resources to strike crippling blows. They are employing surgical strikes at vital components precisely because they can't suffer the heavy loss of resources a Kamikaze style attack would necessitate. Replacing a fighter is going to be infinitely easier, than replacing a large capital ship. Look it as the difference between trying to find a boat, and trying to find a nuclear powered aircraft carrier. In fact, an apt analogy for the war, is your local yacht club deciding to fight the US Navy.

    This was touched upon in the old EU (now Legends). One of the biggest problems the New Republic faced after "winning" the war, was securing the peace and defending their borders. There were large imperial navies, under the command of loyal Imperials, who came to take the Rebels out, and almost won. You can't write off military resources needlessly. A Kamikaze mission is a guaranteed loss of resources for at least 1 side, with no guaranteed good outcome.

  2. #257
    Ming-the Merciless Glove's Avatar
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    I could be wrong, but, in Rogue One, didn't rebel ships attempt to warp away from the Imperial fleet at the end and simply crash into Star Destroyer shields? If Disney made such a big deal to let the audience know that a ship could warp through shields (as Han Solo said could be done with the Falcon when entering into Star Killer base), wouldn't it have been smart for the rebel fleet ships to warp into that planet Skariff (I think?) with the shields in Rogue One or in Return of the Jedi, Endor when they had a planetary shield protecting the Death Star #2? How's come Han Solo didn't know this in Return of the Jedi? The only thing, in The Last Jedi, that the only new technology that was possible was "the ability to track ships in lightspeed."

  3. #258
    Mad Man with a Box! HalJordan4184's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glove View Post
    I could be wrong, but, in Rogue One, didn't rebel ships attempt to warp away from the Imperial fleet at the end and simply crash into Star Destroyer shields? If Disney made such a big deal to let the audience know that a ship could warp through shields (as Han Solo said could be done with the Falcon when entering into Star Killer base), wouldn't it have been smart for the rebel fleet ships to warp into that planet Skariff (I think?) with the shields in Rogue One or in Return of the Jedi, Endor when they had a planetary shield protecting the Death Star #2? How's come Han Solo didn't know this in Return of the Jedi? The only thing, in The Last Jedi, that the only new technology that was possible was "the ability to track ships in lightspeed."
    In the end of Rogue One, as the Rebel Fleet was attempting to leave the system, the Imperial Star Destroyers dropped out of hyperspace in their path, but prior to their light speed jumps. They just crashed into the ships "normally".

    I think the point of the Force Awakens moment was the type of shield they were using, and the refresh rate on it, was one that would enable something moving FTL (Faster Than Light) to pass through. It might not be possible depending on how shields in general work in that universe, to do this with other objects/planets/etc.

  4. #259
    Forum Regular AsteroidMike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glove View Post
    I could be wrong, but, in Rogue One, didn't rebel ships attempt to warp away from the Imperial fleet at the end and simply crash into Star Destroyer shields? If Disney made such a big deal to let the audience know that a ship could warp through shields (as Han Solo said could be done with the Falcon when entering into Star Killer base), wouldn't it have been smart for the rebel fleet ships to warp into that planet Skariff (I think?) with the shields in Rogue One or in Return of the Jedi, Endor when they had a planetary shield protecting the Death Star #2? How's come Han Solo didn't know this in Return of the Jedi? The only thing, in The Last Jedi, that the only new technology that was possible was "the ability to track ships in lightspeed."
    I just rewatched the scene from Rogue One, a good chunk of Rebel ships warped out just before Vader's Star Destroyer arrived. One ship did crash into it but it wasn't going into hyperspace at that point, it simply just bounced off.

  5. #260
    Forum Regular AsteroidMike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vergon6 View Post
    I honestly had mixed feelings. If the Force Awakens problem was laying a little thick with the homages, one of the problems with The Last Jedi was they tried too hard to defy expectations, go against type, etc. I also felt like that whole subplot with the casino was a waste of time and could have easily been cut out.
    The more and more I think about it, the less harsh I feel about the Finn and Rose subplot. I definitely understand where fans are coming from when they say it feels bloated, but to me it doesn't feel like that because it didn't annoy me, I could live with it. Regarding expectations of the film, I think Rian Johnson knew exactly what fans expectations were for the film and went against them because he felt if they were met in one specific way, it would be too predictable i.e. who Rey's parents were and it would make the Galaxy seem smaller than it actually was.

    In any case, the problem Star Wars has is that fan expectations will always be enormously high because that's what the franchise is, especially with all their successes.

  6. #261
    Battle Troll DJ Doena's Avatar
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  7. #262
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
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    Yep, one huge muddled mess. Just look at the Luke storyline. According to Johnson, he went to the island to die because he felt like the Jedi had to end. But accoding to Kasdan and Abrams, he left behind a map so that people can find him (why else would he?). Of course it's never explored why he left one piece of it with R2 and why the other piece of the map ended up in Max Von Sydow's possession, but that's another (untold) story.

    All in all, everyone's to blame. The writers of the first movie for creating a bunch of threads that were left hanging, the writer of the second movie for ignoring said threads and the head honcho for not caring enough to create a coherent trilogy.

    Not that it matters. TFA and TLJ collectively will gross roughly 3.5 billion, so that's all Kennedy and Disney care about. "As long as it's Star Wars, it sells".

  8. #263
    Mad Man with a Box! HalJordan4184's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Doena View Post


    I just read a story in my newsfeed somewhere today, about the statement Mark Hamill had made about the ending of the The Force Awakens conflicting with the start of The Last Jedi. Apparently, Abrams filmed the end of TFA, with Rey coming up on Luke, and Luke having all these boulders and rocks kind of levitating around him. Like he had become so powerful with the Force, he couldn't keep it all contained anymore. It was only after Rian Johnson gave Hamill the script for TLJ that Hamill saw the conflict. He called one of them, and they were like, yeah, we caught that in post and edited that all out.

    The only thing I thought was, how could they be different, they had to have talked about this. Alas, apparently not! How does the sequel director just decide to change the ending of the film he's making a sequel to? You can't really do a franchise, with a series of sequels and prequels, if you don't actually have a story to tell, other than this is a character, she has to be in it, this is fluid, oh, and definitely don't do this. I have to agree with Max Landis on this, they seem to be establishing a Universe where they define all the things it isn't, while avoiding defining what it is.
    Last edited by HalJordan4184; 01-11-2018 at 12:44 PM.

  9. #264
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    I'm not that surprised the fallout of Abrams' "mystery box"-itis materialized in TLJ.

    While a lot of fans like to hype that he's good at teasing mysteries ... his resolving them satisfactorily or even coherently is another story. His TV series Lost is Exhibit A in this regard. Yeah, it had plenty of mysteries, but not all of them panned out so well with viewers.

    Johnson might have earned heat for running with the baton, so to speak -- but it was Abrams' baton that was handed to him. And if you're handed a map with little to no direction, it's no surprise some of those alleged mysteries sputtered out in TLJ. Or did they? Maybe Abrams will try to revise or re-answer in Ep. IX some of the questions he, perhaps unwisely in hindsight, set up in TFA.

    I'm actually hoping he won't do this, but considering his often convoluted Lost track record with mystery boxes, I'm almost expecting him to find a way to turn Rey into a Kenobi or something else bizarre.

  10. #265
    Custom Title jon-el87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    The worst thing that can happen now is Abrams treating TLJ the same way Johnson treated TFA.
    No, the worst thing that can happen now is that Abrams goes into the writers room and goes "okay, get this... The Resistance learns that the First Order is building a second Star Killer Base" and we end up with what is largely a weak remake of RotJ. Followed by a fan debate, if this should be called the "sequel trilogy" or the "remake trilogy".

  11. #266
    Pirate King Backward Galaxy's Avatar
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    On the one hand, part of me is thinking it doesn't matter. If they really are intent on there being another Star Wars film every year, there's nothing saying this group of films has to be a trilogy. It could just be an ongoing story with episode after episode.

    But then you hear comments from Daisy Ridley where she said (paraphrasing) that she expects to finish the third one and be done. This could just be contract talk from an actor looking to make more money when they realize they need her for more films, or it could mean exactly what everyone seems to be speculating.... that this is a trilogy, but no one knows where it's going.

    I personally don't care. Christopher Nolan made one film at a time when he made his Batman trilogy. I prefer filmmakers to have a complete vision for each individual film. I believe that TLJ meets those requirements easily. It has no interest in what follows, and only mild interest in what came before. It is its own thing, its own movie, and I like that.

  12. #267
    Forum Regular AsteroidMike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jon-el87 View Post
    No, the worst thing that can happen now is that Abrams goes into the writers room and goes "okay, get this... The Resistance learns that the First Order is building a second Star Killer Base" and we end up with what is largely a weak remake of RotJ. Followed by a fan debate, if this should be called the "sequel trilogy" or the "remake trilogy".
    The REAL worst thing that can happen is JJ goes out and says Rey is a Skywalker or a Solo or Kenobi or something, in addition to a second Starkiller Base. Surely in a universe as vast as Star Wars, and with the new canon in mind there's other ways of ruining a planet without copying the Death Star.

    I have absolutely no idea what the closing chapter in this trilogy is gonna be like and I'm totally okay with that.

  13. #268
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jon-el87 View Post
    No, the worst thing that can happen now is that Abrams goes into the writers room and goes "okay, get this... The Resistance learns that the First Order is building a second Star Killer Base" and we end up with what is largely a weak remake of RotJ. Followed by a fan debate, if this should be called the "sequel trilogy" or the "remake trilogy".
    Quote Originally Posted by AsteroidMike View Post
    The REAL worst thing that can happen is JJ goes out and says Rey is a Skywalker or a Solo or Kenobi or something, in addition to a second Starkiller Base. Surely in a universe as vast as Star Wars, and with the new canon in mind there's other ways of ruining a planet without copying the Death Star.
    Actually both of these fall under my definition of "the worst thing that can happen now with Abrams in charge". To sum it up, JJ has to pick whatever threads RJ created and take it from there. He can't worry about Episode IX rounding up the trilogy that TFA set up any longer. TLJ ruined all that.

    Mind you, Rian Johnson, in one of his many attempts at damage limitation after the movie's release, recently stated that the mystery of Rey's parentage might not have been answered in TLJ. Leaving the window open for Abrams to retcon it back to what he wanted to do.

    I don't mind not knowing what the next movie will do either. Star Wars movies are usually unpredictable anyway (the only exception being the prequels because they were telling a story we already knew). The real problem is not knowing if the storyline developments of the movie we just watched will even matter to whoever writes the next movie. And that's the kind of distrust that was born out of the first 2 movies being made by people with very different visions.
    Last edited by costas22; 01-12-2018 at 08:58 AM.

  14. #269
    Forum Regular AsteroidMike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    Actually both of these fall under my definition of "the worst thing that can happen now with Abrams in charge". To sum it up, JJ has to pick whatever threads RJ created and take it from there. He can't worry about Episode IX rounding up the trilogy that TFA set up any longer. TLJ ruined all that.

    Mind you, Rian Johnson, in one of his many attempts at damage limitation after the movie's release, recently stated that the mystery of Rey's parentage might not have been answered in TLJ. Leaving the window open for Abrams to retcon it back to what he wanted to do.

    I don't mind not knowing what the next movie will do either. Star Wars movies are usually unpredictable anyway (the only exception being the prequels because they were telling a story we already knew). The real problem is not knowing if the storyline developments of the movie we just watched will even matter to whoever writes the next movie. And that's the kind of distrust that was born out of the first 2 movies being made by people with very different visions.
    In all fairness, having the movies made different people with different visions isn't a new thing, the original trilogy only had Lucas direct the first movie but have 2 different people direct the other 2, the first of those being one of the greatest sequels of all time. Even back then people didn't like ESB that much when it came out because it was darker and differed a lot, only for people to enjoy it a lot now.

  15. #270
    Custom Title jon-el87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AsteroidMike View Post
    In all fairness, having the movies made different people with different visions isn't a new thing, the original trilogy only had Lucas direct the first movie but have 2 different people direct the other 2, the first of those being one of the greatest sequels of all time.
    While true, all three were written (or co-written) by the same guy, who was also heavily involved in the production in the two sequels. Giving them a consistency. Here, the first movie is co-written and directed by one guy, who then leaves (leaving no map about where they're going to go next) and the next is written and directed by another guy, who suddenly have to juggle the questions that the first movie created (which the writer/director of the previous movie, had no plans to resolve. Essentially leaving that up to the next guy), while he also has to do "damage control". With TFA, Abrams largely set them up, to remake the OT. With a Darth Vader pastiche, A Death Star pastiche (but, it's bigger. That makes it different), an Emperor pastiche, an Empire pastiche, etc, etc. The guy seems to have a limited/weird understanding of Star Wars. On the Blu-ray extras, he justifies the presence of a tantina in the movie, because it "wouldn't be a SW movie, without a tantina". Despite only one out of the six previous movies (and that's not counting all the TCW and Rebels episodes) having featured one.

    So, the new guy is tasked to essentially give the trilogy a soft reboot, in his movie. Getting Kylo Ren to stop wearing the mask (that made him look like a Vader wannabe), killing off the Emperor pastiche, to ensure that the next movie won't just end up as a repeat of RotJ and trying to de-Mary Sue Rey. Trying to get around us having to sit through another movie, where one character spends the majority getting Jedi training (which we've already seen in ESB and the animated shows). Between TPM and AotC, there was, thankfully, a ten year time jump. So, all of Anakin's training took place offscreen, over a ten year period. Uncle George knew better than to force us to sit through the exact same things, that we had seen before. Not to mention, the fact that Anakin had been training for ten years, made it easy to accept his skills in using the force.

    Back to the sequel trilogy. Now we've got Abrams coming back. So, now he's tasked to continue. Resolve everything and provide answers to questions... that he never considered answering. It was more "what will create a lot of buzz and speculation online?". Another problem is that Abrams have a proven tendecy to just recycle old stuff, rather than trying to do something new. Say whatever you want about George Lucas, but he always pushed to try new things. Sure, he drew inspiration from Flash Gordon serials and Kurosawa movies. But, there's a difference between being inspired by something and just copying someone else. A New Hope wasn't simply "The Hidden Fortress in Space".

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