Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017)

[costas22]

Yeah, I'm going to have to disagree about there being more to Palpatine than there was to Snoke.

When the Empire fell in RotJ, there was a power vacuum left in its wake. A powerful Force user, who is capable of bending the will of others, would have easily been able to swoop in and seize control. It then took them 30 years to re-build their armies and assemble the Starkiller base while everyone else was too busy re-building a Republic government to notice.

We don't know any more about Palpatine in the OT. We don't know he was a Senator from Naboo. We don't know he manipulated his way into executive power through a trade dispute. We don't know he achieved more power by playing both sides of a galactic civil war against each other. We don't know he rose to Emperor by blaming the Jedi Order for trying to usurp power and assassinate him. We don't even know that his real name is Darth Sidious. His name. We don't know his name.

And if we want to go STRICTLY by the OT, we don't even know his name-name is Palpatine except maybe from the credits. He's just "the Emperor". No one, not one person, ever says the name "Palpatine" in the OT.

Here's the part of Snoke's backstory that matters... he seduced Kylo Ren because he knew the Skywalker bloodline yielded powerful Force users. He then manipulated Kylo Ren, shamed him, [SPOILER]to lure Rey in with the hopes of turning him[/SPOILER]. Kylo, [SPOILER]manipulated and betrayed by a SECOND master, kills him[/SPOILER]. In other words, we know just enough about Snoke to tell us important things about Kylo Ren, because that's who this story is about.

That's why I excluded everything that we saw in the prequels from my comment. Because it wasn't touched upon in the OT. And it's true that his name wasn't mentioned in episodes 4-6, but IMO that's of little significance. The information that really mattered was what was Palpatine's place in this story, how he came to be and what he wanted to achieve. And I feel that the OT, while not expanding on anything, left enough breadcrumbs for the viewer to figure it out. Whereas in Snoke's case, these questions can only be answered by fanwanking. I'd also say that Snoke's story needed more embellishing than Palpatine's for one extra reason: So that he wouldn't come across as another Palpatine (in some people's eyes) or a mere Palpatine knockoff (in other people's eyes).

No arguements about Snoke's backstory as far as Kylo Ren is concerned. That part is explored as much as the Emperor's history with Vader is in the OT. I just feel that rest of his arc also mattered because he's supposed to be the face of this evil organization that's hounding our heroes.

I guess that my order of the Episodes would be:

1) Revenge of the Sith
2) The Empire Strike Back
3) Attack of the Clones
4) A New Hope
5) The Phantom Menace
6) The Last Jedi
7) Return of the Jedi
8) The Force Awakens

Nice to know other fans also rate RotS highly. My ranking, including Rogue One, would be:

1) Empire Strikes Back
2) Revenge of the Sith
3) Rogue One
4) A New Hope
5) Return of the Jedi
6) The Force Awakens
7) The Last Jedi
8) Attack of the Clones
9) Phantom Menace

Was really tempted to place TLJ below AotC...

[darkphoenix21]

On the basis of just the Episodes, my ranking would be:

1) The Empire Strikes Back
2) A New Hope
3) Return of the Jedi
4) The Force Awakens
5) Revenge of the Sith
6) The Last Jedi
7) Attack of the Clones
8) The Phantom Menace

If we’re talking all the films...Rogue One would be #2 and everything else would be pushed down a slot.

[CKent/KalEl]

It reads like someone tossing out flimsy excuses as to why they didn't like it rather than competently articulating their problems.

*shrugs shoulders*

Probably. I didn't have the time to vent properly myself so I found a proxy channel.

But I'll repeat what I said earlier. This trilogy, using the OT characters, should never have been made! The expanded universe is rich, truly rich with great stories that would make at least good movies. I understand why Baphomet thought that they have to do what they did with the basic, quick cash grab, show them the robots, show them Chewie, give them Old Han quips, lets USE that POWERFUL nostalgia, but the fu * kers would have made the same amount of money if they made a good first movie outside of the OT plot. People were not ready for different versions of Leia and Luke, for their mutilation, but they were ready for truly different characters and stories.

Oh well, what's done is done.

[President_Luthor]

My ranking for all the SW movies is:

1. The Empire Strikes Back (It only gets better with age.)
2, Rogue One
3. A New Hope
4. Return of the Jedi
5. The Force Awakens
6. The Last Jedi (It would have been 7th, but a recent second viewing raised it one level. I'm securely in the "glass half-full" camp with TLJ. Some issues remain, but others I've dismissed outright after a second viewing.)
7. Revenge of the Sith. (Saw this again recently. Still good, the best of the prequels. Would have made it 6th, but I can't get past some of the clunky dialogue.)
8. The Phantom Menace
9. Attack of the Clones. (It had some great moments esp. with Obi Wan, but this film convinced me that Lucas sorely needed a script doctor, or to hand over all scriptwriting to someone else ... for all his prequels.)

After binge-watching TLJ cast interviews ... Laura Dern is stiil lookin' great. Celebrity crush re-confirmed. Google the TLJ WIRED interview with cast on YT. Lucky Mark Hamill got to team up with her too.

[DA_Champion]

borrowing this list of things wrong with the movie from another comment on another site:

[SPOILER]

1. The Force Awakens Apparently Never Happened. At the end of the last movie, you’ll recall, the Rebel Alliance blew up the Starkiller Base,devastating the First Order’s capacity to make war. Or not.
2. There Is No Gravity In Space. The opening sequence features bombers dropping explosives on a First Order dreadnought.
3. Snoke Is A Throwaway. In the last film, JJ Abrams made a big deal out of this Snoke guy. Now, I’m not a fellow who spends a lot of time googling
whether Snoke is actually Darth Plagueis or whether he’s Mace Windu. But if you’re going to build up a big baddie who has the power to seduce
Kylo Ren to the Dark Side, completely override Rey’s force abilities, and threaten Luke, you’ve got to tell us who the heck he is.
4. Kylo Ren Isn’t Intimidating.
5. Rey’s Backstory Sucks.
6. Luke’s Weird Farmer Life Is Weird. Did we really need a whole day of Luke going around milking an alien seacow and drinking it?
7. Luke Is A Bad Teacher. Luke says that he’s going to provide Rey three lessons. The lessons consist of him (1) telling her what the Force is (okay,
we already knew that); (2) having her touch a rock and see the Dark Side (she’s drawn in by it but not seduced). There is no third lesson
8. Celebrity Cameos Make No Sense. Laura Dern with purple hair? Benicio Del Toro stuttering? What are these people doing here?
9. Poe Dameron’s Story Arc Is Foolish. Poe is supposed to be newfangled Han Solo. Fail. First off, there is no new Han Solo. Second, Poe is a
dolt. And Admiral Laura Dern, working with Leia, has a plan they could easily just tell Poe and solve half the conflict of the plot. Why keep it secret
from Poe? We never find out. Instead, Poe runs around like a moron, making stupid plans with Finn that have no actual effect on the plotline.
10. Finn’s Storyline Is Useless. Finn should have died at the end of TFA. He should have died at the end of The Last Jedi. Instead, he goes on a
random jaunt to Monte Carlo with aliens, and then rides a bunch of camel/horse/kangeroos to freedom while street urchins cheer. It’s godawful. Then,
finally, when he’s about to do something useful, Rose stops him from doing it. Why is he here again, except to have awkward hugs with Rey?
11. Rose Is Useless. Rose is added to the plot to give Finn someone to travel with and develop awkward romance with. But her presence is simply
not useful. She doesn’t do anything particularly special. She does give Finn a lecture about income inequality, though. So I guess that’s something.
12. The “slow speed” (in Star Trek terms sub-light) chase? seriously. “Fuel” has never been mentioned in 9 Star Wars movies (or the extended
universe or even the RPG). If Finn and Rose can jump away and back again the first order could have entered hyper space and jumped in front of
the rebel ships. Hell apparently they could have went to another star system (and maybe gambled and drank for awhile) and come back in front of
them or right next to them like Finn and stupid Rose.
13. Captain Phasma Is A Nothing. She’s apparently a white woman who wears a cool suit, and then Finn — a dude who five seconds ago was a
janitor — beats her. Welp.
14. Luke Shouldn’t Have Been A Hologram. Turning Luke into Obi-Wan Kenobe for purposes of the reset makes some sense. But his death made
none. Why is it cool for Luke to survive a barrage from AT-ATs if he’s not even there? Why is it cool for Luke to best Kylo Ren in a light saber battle if
(1) Rey has already done so, and (2) Luke isn’t even there? They easily could have brought Luke there, and had him do exactly the same thing, but
sacrifice himself — or perhaps just fade away in front of Kylo Ren.
15. The Powers Of The Force Aren’t Magic. We learn that through the Force, you can now hologram yourself places, and that you can also survive
being thrown into space (Leia). Wut?
16. Light Speed Can’t Be Used As A Weapon. You can’t destroy ships by flying at them at light speed. If you could, the entire first scene would have
been unnecessary (forget the bombers, just shoot an X-wing through that dreadnought), and the Rebel Alliance could have taken down every Death
Star ever in the same way.
17. Why Would Luke Try To Kill Kylo? He tried to save Vader after Vader destroyed a planet and cut off his hand. He sensed good in him. He
senses evil in Kylo and for a moment wants to kill him? That seems like a mild stretch at best.
18. Luke hates the Jedi and wants to die………but:
1. He leaves a map to find him where he is standing wearing his Jedi robes at the end of TFA. Luke loves the Jedi enough to go to the first Jedi temple and wear Jedi clothes.
2. If Luke wanted to die, he could have force ghosted at any time.

19. There Are No Interesting Characters Left Except For Kylo Ren. So, now everybody’s dead. Han’s dead. Luke is dead. Leia was never that
interesting, but Carrie Fisher died, so Leia can’t stick around for long. That means we’re left with the new characters — which is the point, since Star

Wars can’t survive on nostalgia forever. But Rey isn’t particularly interesting — they just gave her a crappy backstory. [/SPOILER]

Good list but I have a couple disagreements.

1) There's always been gravity in space. We see gravity on little tiny spaceships. There's even air resistance in space based on how the ships move.

Star Wars fighter battle have always been a metaphor for world war 2 aerial battles. That's fine.

However, that ended in this movie with the use of hyperspace ramming as a weapon.

2) I have no objection to Leia floating in space. It's well-known that humans can survive for a short moment naked in space. Further, it follows from the previous movies that a Jedi could survive for longer ... in the opening scene of The Phantom Menace, Qui Gonna and Obi Wan survive asphyxiation from a gas attack.

Other than that, the list is excellent and points out how weak the plot and characters of TLJ are.

[AsteroidMike]

Nah, that whole list is extremely poorly thought out, with the exception of a couple of points. For instance:

[SPOILER]16. Light Speed Can’t Be Used As A Weapon. You can’t destroy ships by flying at them at light speed. If you could, the entire first scene would have
been unnecessary (forget the bombers, just shoot an X-wing through that dreadnought), and the Rebel Alliance could have taken down every Death
Star ever in the same way.[/SPOILER]

[SPOILER]As it was stated earlier, using hyperspace as a weapon is very possible, it's fundamentally no different than ramming someone with the ship, except this is at hyperspeed. Also, the only reason it was used that way in the movie was only because it was a last resort rather than a go-to weapon. Furthermore, doing it at the start of the film with one lone X-wing would be a waste of a ship and the Resistance is pretty small and needs all the resources it can muster. Same with the Rebels against the Death Stars, it's stupid to suggest they hyperspace the hell out of everything because they have limited resources. Even further, the Death Star is enormous and one or a handful of starfighters could damage it but nowhere near enough to destroy it, unless they magically hit the main reactor. And even if the Rebels used all their starfighters and bombers on the Death Star, there's a chance it might not do enough damage to it and by that point you've wasted all your fighters. [/SPOILER]

Really, whoever made that list is someone who either doesn't pay much attention to Star Wars or just wanted to make excuses as to why they hated the movie.

[Backward Galaxy]

I guess we're ranking them. So, let's see...

1: The Empire Strikes Back - still the best
2: A New Hope - the original, a classic, and no Ewoks
3: Return of the Jedi - I love this movie, but it has Ewoks
4: The Force Awakens - I love this movie, but it's still a remake of #2
5: The Last Jedi - This is probably a better film than TFA, but it's not as re-watch friendly because it's so damn long
6: Rogue One - A good movie, but not particularly fun. Takes the fun out of Star Wars, and that's a problem for me.
7: Attack of the Clones - This movie sucks.
8: The Phantom Menace - This movie sucks and has a lot of Jar Jar.
9: Revenge of the Sith - One of the worst pieces of garbage ever made by people on this level of filmmaking (meaning, I'm not comparing it to no-budget movies made by hacks, but to other films made by well-funded competent people)

[costas22]

The movie will surpass the 1.1 billion mark worldwide today. TFA's worldwide total after 3 weeks was 1.55 billion. At the rate TLJ is matching up to TFA, it will probably make 1.5-1.6 billion by the end. I wonder what their initial projections were.

[SPOILER]As it was stated earlier, using hyperspace as a weapon is very possible, it's fundamentally no different than ramming someone with the ship, except this is at hyperspeed. Also, the only reason it was used that way in the movie was only because it was a last resort rather than a go-to weapon. Furthermore, doing it at the start of the film with one lone X-wing would be a waste of a ship and the Resistance is pretty small and needs all the resources it can muster. Same with the Rebels against the Death Stars, it's stupid to suggest they hyperspace the hell out of everything because they have limited resources. Even further, the Death Star is enormous and one or a handful of starfighters could damage it but nowhere near enough to destroy it, unless they magically hit the main reactor. And even if the Rebels used all their starfighters and bombers on the Death Star, there's a chance it might not do enough damage to it and by that point you've wasted all your fighters. [/SPOILER]

On the flip side of that arguement, using a couple of X-Wings' light speed to take out a huge Star Destroyer or a Death Star as a first resort would have caused the Resistance or the Rebellion less casualties and ships than taking them head on did (just remember how many Rebel ships were lost in the battles of Yavin and Endor). Using a single medical freighter might have gotten the job done as well (considering how much damage Holdo's ship did). I really wish Rian Johnson hadn't gone there. All he did was open up a can of worms and make you wonder why things couldn't be so simple in previous movies. Similar to the way he had characters use the Force in this movie.

The list in most parts is hating on the movie for the sake of it, but the criticism against the use of light speed was a valid point, IMO.

[Glove]

Good list but I have a couple disagreements.

1) There's always been gravity in space. We see gravity on little tiny spaceships. There's even air resistance in space based on how the ships move.

Star Wars fighter battle have always been a metaphor for world war 2 aerial battles. That's fine.

However, that ended in this movie with the use of hyperspace ramming as a weapon.

2) I have no objection to Leia floating in space. It's well-known that humans can survive for a short moment naked in space. Further, it follows from the previous movies that a Jedi could survive for longer ... in the opening scene of The Phantom Menace, Qui Gonna and Obi Wan survive asphyxiation from a gas attack.

Other than that, the list is excellent and points out how weak the plot and characters of TLJ are.

There's ZERO gravity in space. That's why astronauts do certain experiments in space that they cannot do on Earth. Gravity is created when a large body such as the Earth, moon, etc. pull things toward them...depending on their size denotes how much gravity a large body creates. The sun is a gravitational force that pulls all the planets toward it. Space itself is NOT a gravitational force.

There's a huge difference between surviving asphyxiation from a gas attack in an environment that has oxygen and in the vacuum of space where there is NO oxygen, NO ozone layer to protect one from the radiation of stars/suns and extreme heat and/or cold that goes with it. No one survives in space, not even for 10 seconds. This will never get reported because of humane societies and such, but I'm sure that this theory has been tested on animals.

[HalJordan4184]

There's ZERO gravity in space. That's why astronauts do certain experiments in space that they cannot do on Earth. Gravity is created when a large body such as the Earth, moon, etc. pull things toward them...depending on their size denotes how much gravity a large body creates. The sun is a gravitational force that pulls all the planets toward it. Space itself is NOT a gravitational force.

There's a huge difference between surviving asphyxiation from a gas attack in an environment that has oxygen and in the vacuum of space where there is NO oxygen, NO ozone layer to protect one from the radiation of stars/suns and extreme heat and/or cold that goes with it. No one survives in space, not even for 10 seconds. This will never get reported because of humane societies and such, but I'm sure that this theory has been tested on animals.

Large objects don't "pull" things towards them. Any object with mass, warps space (and subsequently time) around it. The amount of curvature is dependent on the mass of the object. Think of it like stretching a sheet across a room. If pulled tight, it's a straight plane. Now throw a marble on it. The marble will warp the sheet around it, and if something is rolled sufficient close, it will "fall" into that marbles local warping of the plane. Now ramp it up, throw a basketball on there. You get a bigger distortion, that effects far more area than just that directly touching the ball. Now toss an anvil on there, and you can see how a black hole, or other supermassive object would work. It'd be theoretically possible to "drop a bomb" in space, but in all reality, I'm just assuming they are guided munitions "dropped" en masse. It's a civilization that has faster than light travel AND space wizards. We're really gonna nitpick bombs, lol.

As for surviving in space, you absolutely can unaided, for close to two minutes with no permanent negative side effects. Space is cold. However, it's a cold vacuum. Conduction and Convection are non existent. Your body will actually remain quite warm, for quite a while. Your body would SLOWLY freeze, not flash freeze like portrayed in movies. The skin is a remarkable organ, and is a very good insulator. It will also stretch to accommodate the water that shifts out of your cells due to the decompression. The biggest thing that would happen, would be rapid unconsciousness, if you don't prepare for it. Even with notice, you'll only be able to remain awake for 30 seconds to a minute anyway. Some estimates are as low as 15 seconds. For the scene in the movie though, it works. It was one of the least problematic scenes for me. It's cheesiness is definitely up for debate, but I had no problem with a person surviving in space for a few seconds.

[Glove]

Large objects don't "pull" things towards them. Any object with mass, warps space (and subsequently time) around it. The amount of curvature is dependent on the mass of the object. Think of it like stretching a sheet across a room. If pulled tight, it's a straight plane. Now throw a marble on it. The marble will warp the sheet around it, and if something is rolled sufficient close, it will "fall" into that marbles local warping of the plane. Now ramp it up, throw a basketball on there. You get a bigger distortion, that effects far more area than just that directly touching the ball. Now toss an anvil on there, and you can see how a black hole, or other supermassive object would work. It'd be theoretically possible to "drop a bomb" in space, but in all reality, I'm just assuming they are guided munitions "dropped" en masse. It's a civilization that has faster than light travel AND space wizards. We're really gonna nitpick bombs, lol.

As for surviving in space, you absolutely can unaided, for close to two minutes with no permanent negative side effects. Space is cold. However, it's a cold vacuum. Conduction and Convection are non existent. Your body will actually remain quite warm, for quite a while. Your body would SLOWLY freeze, not flash freeze like portrayed in movies. The skin is a remarkable organ, and is a very good insulator. It will also stretch to accommodate the water that shifts out of your cells due to the decompression. The biggest thing that would happen, would be rapid unconsciousness, if you don't prepare for it. Even with notice, you'll only be able to remain awake for 30 seconds to a minute anyway. Some estimates are as low as 15 seconds. For the scene in the movie though, it works. It was one of the least problematic scenes for me. It's cheesiness is definitely up for debate, but I had no problem with a person surviving in space for a few seconds.

I compare Leia's scene in space to Greedo firing first, anything with Ewoks or Jar Jar Binks, and a second and third Death Star/Star Killer. All of this makes me cringe.

[Vergon6]

I honestly had mixed feelings. If the Force Awakens problem was laying a little thick with the homages, one of the problems with The Last Jedi was they tried too hard to defy expectations, go against type, etc. I also felt like that whole subplot with the casino was a waste of time and could have easily been cut out.

[Backward Galaxy]

The movie will surpass the 1.1 billion mark worldwide today. TFA's worldwide total after 3 weeks was 1.55 billion. At the rate TLJ is matching up to TFA, it will probably make 1.5-1.6 billion by the end. I wonder what their initial projections were.



On the flip side of that arguement, using a couple of X-Wings' light speed to take out a huge Star Destroyer or a Death Star as a first resort would have caused the Resistance or the Rebellion less casualties and ships than taking them head on did (just remember how many Rebel ships were lost in the battles of Yavin and Endor). Using a single medical freighter might have gotten the job done as well (considering how much damage Holdo's ship did). I really wish Rian Johnson hadn't gone there. All he did was open up a can of worms and make you wonder why things couldn't be so simple in previous movies. Similar to the way he had characters use the Force in this movie.

The list in most parts is hating on the movie for the sake of it, but the criticism against the use of light speed was a valid point, IMO.

Kamikaze tactics have been used in real wars, yet they are no one's first choice and for good reasons. Now, we could argue that the Resistance more closely resembles a terrorist organization in these films, making suicide missions slightly more reasonable, but I don't think that's what Star Wars is really going for.

Rebels actually did an episode where they stole bombers (Y-wings?) and it emphasized the importance of every ship, even the small ones.

I think the movie also went out of it's way to explain how Hux screwed up. They could've destroyed it, but didn't. It's possible Hux wanted to recover the ship for the First Order.

[Backward Galaxy]

I honestly had mixed feelings. If the Force Awakens problem was laying a little thick with the homages, one of the problems with The Last Jedi was they tried too hard to defy expectations, go against type, etc. I also felt like that whole subplot with the casino was a waste of time and could have easily been cut out.

I keep going back and forth on that, because the point of it is that it's a total failure in everything they try to achieve, but they inspire others. So while it seems totally superfluous, if they had accomplished any of their goals it would have worked against the point of the film.

[costas22]

Personally speaking, I've grown to be a bit more lenient towards the Canto Bight storyline for a couple of reasons:

- While the endgame isn't accomplished, the mission wasn't a total waste. Finn and Rose set free those imprisoned animals and that alone should count for something.
- It's the meeting with Finn and Rose that gives hope to Broom Boy and the other slaves. I know that Rian Johnson claims that it was Luke's sacrifice that achieved that, but I have my doubts. That explanation sounds like damage control after all the criticisms about the way Luke was written in this movie. How would Broom Boy even know that Luke did what he did?
- A theory I've read online is that the mission is important to Finn's development. He goes from only caring about protecting Rey to committing to the cause against The First Order. And there is some truth to that. Because even when Finn stood up to Kylo at the end of TFA, the motive behind it was saving Rey more so than taking out the head of the snake, so to speak. So while it wasn't an elaborate plan between Abrams and Johnson, I think there is a natural progression of Finn's storyline over the 2 movies. (And that's why I feel Finn sacrificing himself to take out the battering cannon would have been a fitting end for him, but that's another story).

That said, there's still a lot of fat in the Finn/Rose storyline and I wish it ran half as long as it did. As arc C of the movie, it didn't need to be this long.

Kamikaze tactics have been used in real wars, yet they are no one's first choice and for good reasons. Now, we could argue that the Resistance more closely resembles a terrorist organization in these films, making suicide missions slightly more reasonable, but I don't think that's what Star Wars is really going for.

Rebels actually did an episode where they stole bombers (Y-wings?) and it emphasized the importance of every ship, even the small ones.

I think the movie also went out of it's way to explain how Hux screwed up. They could've destroyed it, but didn't. It's possible Hux wanted to recover the ship for the First Order.

Admittedly I haven't seen Rebels, but in the movies there have been instances where Rebel ships and their pilots were considered to be expendable. During both Death Star battles there would be a lead ship that focused on taking out the station's weakness while 2 X-Wings would cover for it (so that they would take the Tie Fighters' heavy fire instead of the lead ship). Obviously they were not kamikaze missions, but they were situations where those X-Wings and their pilots were sacrificed for the greater good.

I don't remember a similar tactic being employed during the battle at Starkiller Base, but with the Resistance basically being the Rebellion 2.0, one has to assume that its philosophy is the same? Now, I understand why a Star Wars movie would avoid a situation where its heroes act in the same manner that a real life terrorist would, but I don't think the notion of sacrificing a couple of ships to take out the opposition is something that they wouldn't consider. Even as a first resort.