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  1. #16
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward Galaxy View Post
    That is an argument designed to dismiss legitimate complaints without actually addressing them.
    There isn't a real concrete argument against it.

    God bless you! God bless everyone!

  2. #17
    Pirate King Backward Galaxy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagenspear View Post
    There isn't a real concrete argument against it.
    One was already made in this thread; an inconsistency in tone. That's just one of many. Another is that the studio interfered with the story in an attempt to push the toyline. Another is the piss poor acting performance of Alicia Silverstone. There are many concrete arguments against it.

  3. #18
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward Galaxy View Post
    One was already made in this thread; an inconsistency in tone. That's just one of many. Another is that the studio interfered with the story in an attempt to push the toyline. Another is the piss poor acting performance of Alicia Silverstone. There are many concrete arguments against it.
    There wasn't an inconsistency. That's a comment on the studio more than the movie, but it doesn't make the movie bad. Alicia Silverstone is meh, which doesn't make the movie bad. These are mainly things people don't like, not things that make the movie bad.

    God bless you! God bless everyone!

  4. #19
    Pirate King Backward Galaxy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagenspear View Post
    There wasn't an inconsistency. That's a comment on the studio more than the movie, but it doesn't make the movie bad. Alicia Silverstone is meh, which doesn't make the movie bad. These are mainly things people don't like, not things that make the movie bad.
    Aurora has said that the actors themselves admitted to the inconsistency.

    It's not a comment on the studio because it affected how the movie was executed. For example, all of the heroes changed into new costumes at the end of the film despite the immediate nature of the danger.

    And Alicia Silverstone is terrible as Batgirl.

    I'm not looking to ruin your fun, but you asked for concrete examples and I gave you three. Here are many, many more:


  5. #20
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward Galaxy View Post
    Aurora has said that the actors themselves admitted to the inconsistency.
    Which doesn't matter in regards to the film. What the actors say isn't an issue.

    It's not a comment on the studio because it affected how the movie was executed. For example, all of the heroes changed into new costumes at the end of the film despite the immediate nature of the danger.
    Uh huh.
    And Alicia Silverstone is terrible as Batgirl.
    Meh.

    I'm not looking to ruin your fun, but you asked for concrete examples and I gave you three. Here are many, many more:

    There's not much that's concrete about the everything wrong with videos.

    God bless you! God bless everyone!

  6. #21
    Battle Troll DJ Doena's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=protege;8144672]
    Quote Originally Posted by Aurora Moon View Post
    You know, that reminds me- i thought that the second part of last year's crossover would've been on the flash dvd set, but it wasn't was it?
    That's sh!tty. At least with the Chicago Fire / Chicago P.D. / Law & Order: SUV crossovers, they always pack all the crossovers into each DVD set.




  7. #22
    Pirate King Backward Galaxy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagenspear View Post
    Which doesn't matter in regards to the film. What the actors say isn't an issue.
    I'm saying it. The actors saying it just reinforces the truth that they were aiming for something that didn't work.

    Uh huh.
    A studio mandate changed the movie and created a plot hole that otherwise wouldn't be there. That is, by definition, a concrete example of studio interference that negatively impacted the film.

    There's not much that's concrete about the everything wrong with videos.
    A generalization that again dismisses the arguments made without actually addressing any of them.

  8. #23
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward Galaxy View Post
    I'm saying it. The actors saying it just reinforces the truth that they were aiming for something that didn't work.
    It doesn't. It's an opinion.
    A studio mandate changed the movie and created a plot hole that otherwise wouldn't be there. That is, by definition, a concrete example of studio interference that negatively impacted the film.
    There isn't a plot hole. It's a logic hole. But not a plot hole. A plot hole is Penguin getting the schematics to the batmobile out of nowhere.
    A generalization that again dismisses the arguments made without actually addressing any of them.
    Dismissing something is easy when 60 percent of their issues in some of their videos are things they don't like, nitpicks and false.

    God bless you! God bless everyone!
    Last edited by Dagenspear; 12-04-2015 at 12:21 PM.

  9. #24
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    Youre not being forced to watch anything.

    in the context of their own shows, the crossovers did nothing to advance their own respective plots so you could just have skipped it and not really missed out on anything

  10. #25
    Posting Pro Aurora Moon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strike101 View Post
    Youre not being forced to watch anything.

    in the context of their own shows, the crossovers did nothing to advance their own respective plots so you could just have skipped it and not really missed out on anything
    You're missing the point I'm making here. I liked Kendra and wanted to see what happened to her.... even if it was just a shameless promo for Legends of Tomorrow.

    The CW guys know this is most likely for the majority of viewers, so to boost Arrow's ratings even amongst those who don't watch Arrow, they made Kendera's story be part of the Arrow's thing even though it didn't quite fit in with Arrow's current storyline.

    They could had easily kept Kendra's story to the Flash series only and it would still had worked.

    Secondly, my other point was that crossovers for the sake of it without there being a point to it often makes for very weak plotlines, and it diminishes all characters of both shows if they don't have a solid storyline to fall back on.

  11. #26
    Pirate King Backward Galaxy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurora Moon View Post
    Secondly, my other point was that crossovers for the sake of it without there being a point to it often makes for very weak plotlines, and it diminishes all characters of both shows if they don't have a solid storyline to fall back on.
    I doubt the writers feel like they have a weak story while they're making it.

  12. #27
    Posting Pro Aurora Moon's Avatar
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    I dunno, I felt that the LOT crossover for Arrow didn't really do anything to spark my interest in the Arrow crew.... Ollie's side of the story when they weren't focusing on Kendra just basically confirmed all the reasons why I stopped watching Arrow a while back.

    Isn't that a bad thing? I mean, characters should had developed more over time, etc to the point where they were better than they were in the past... but the cross-over didn't really reflect that.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward Galaxy View Post
    I doubt the writers feel like they have a weak story while they're making it.
    I just popped in to this conversation and this post by BG intrigues me.

    I like to write screenplays/treatments. I hope to one day see something I've written as a movie or something. Of course making it in screenplay writing isn't easy and I've doubted myself many times, but yet I keep on pushing. I'm always afraid that my story isn't good enough or (God forbid) I've written a "weak story".

    If someone is working for a network as a writer, how is it possible to write a "weak story"? Wouldn't they know (since in my mind they've made it) exactly what makes up a "weak story"? And doesn't someone proof what they've written to let them know, "Hey, it's kinda farcical here in the third act, or This line of dialogue doesn't make any sense"?

    I'm just perplexed how a writer, working for a fantastic show, can possibly get away with writing a weak story?

  14. #29
    Pirate King Backward Galaxy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadow4486 View Post
    I just popped in to this conversation and this post by BG intrigues me.

    I like to write screenplays/treatments. I hope to one day see something I've written as a movie or something. Of course making it in screenplay writing isn't easy and I've doubted myself many times, but yet I keep on pushing. I'm always afraid that my story isn't good enough or (God forbid) I've written a "weak story".

    If someone is working for a network as a writer, how is it possible to write a "weak story"? Wouldn't they know (since in my mind they've made it) exactly what makes up a "weak story"? And doesn't someone proof what they've written to let them know, "Hey, it's kinda farcical here in the third act, or This line of dialogue doesn't make any sense"?

    I'm just perplexed how a writer, working for a fantastic show, can possibly get away with writing a weak story?
    There are 1,001 different reasons this could be the case...

    1: Writers are often told what to write and, as a result, aren't as invested in the material as if it were their own original work. There's an outline for a show, which is usually created by the showrunners, and dictates that certain things happen at certain times. However, it is extremely difficult to write every episode of the show you're working on, especially if you oversee multiple series, as do the people who currently head up Supergirl, Arrow, Flash, and LoT. They have to hire a writing staff to complete episodes for them. Sometimes, these writers will be full time and assigned a handful of episodes. Sometimes, it could be a one-off. They are told what needs to be in the episode, and asked to craft the rest on their own in a certain period of time. These writers aren't necessarily invested in the material and might just be writers for hire needing the money. This will often lead to a degradation in quality.

    2: There are only so many writers to go around, and not all of them are as qualified as they probably think they are. Think of how many different scripted shows, films, books, and plays there are out there right this very moment. Not all of those writers are going to be good. The good writers also cost more, and for CW shows, where budget constraints are tighter than on the more major networks, they aren't going to spend a lot on the best writers available. They'll get what they can.

    3: Network mandates often force shows to do specific things that don't work. Big wigs will often force shows to change they way that they tell stories. The CW, for example, very much has a specifically targeted demographic. They want their shows to have young, beautiful, people in the lead. They want their shows to have angsty drama. They want their shows to have a wee bit of T&A. If someone has an awesome Flash story to tell, but it doesn't include these things, it might not get to the script stage. They absolutely will compromise to give the network what they want. In the case of the crossover episodes, one of the things the network wants is big huge marketable team-ups that benefit both shows. Well, that might become tough to do when you're talking about casts from THREE different series set to run concurrently, all with their own unique storylines and themes. It's not easy to put those together. But if the network wants you to push LoT, you do it. If the network wants you to push toys, you do it.

    4: TV shows are built on repeatable formulas. It's difficult to write the same story 22 times a year and keep it interesting every time.

    5: Not everything every writer writes is going to be their best work. It's impossible.

    6: In the case of these superhero shows, they tend to have one big arc for the entire season. That arc might not fill 22 episodes worth of stories, and you end up with filler episodes. Or, it might be overbloated and you end up with episodes that are rushed.

    7: Sometimes the actors and directors can't "pull off" what the writer puts to page. You might end up with a story that's simply better on the page than it is on the screen.

    8: Some writers have their jobs because they were lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time and know the right people, not because they're legitimate talent.

    9: Some novels are written over the course of years and years, because deadlines aren't necessarily a huge issue, unless you're contracted by a publishing company. This gives people the opportunity to have their work critiqued, to edit, and to try again. When you're running a television series, you don't have the luxury of not having a script ready. Studio time, actors, crews are all booked well in advance. If the script isn't quite ready, you can't just grind everything to a halt for revisions. You have to shoot it.

    There are MANY more reasons, but these examples represent a few of the big ones...

  15. #30
    Posting Pro Aurora Moon's Avatar
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    Very nice analysis there, BG. I especially loved the bit about network mandates... I feel that was what ruined aspects of Smallville for me. Smallville had a lot of good things going for it, but CW's mandates as well as the DC mandates bogged it down and ruined a lot of things.

    There was also times when I felt CW at the time was trying to have their cake and eat it too... for instance the TV show was about Clark Kent before he became superman, but they didn't want it to be a show about costumed heroes, so they had that stupid "no costumes" rule in place for Clark.

    I saw so much promise for the TV show though, underneath all that stuff. I could see that some of the writers was really good, etc.... but that they were bogged down by the rules that they had to follow. I guess that's why I have such a Love-Hate relationship with that show.

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