View Poll Results: Rate This Episode

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  • 10 - Legendary

    5 19.23%
  • 9

    3 11.54%
  • 8

    3 11.54%
  • 7

    2 7.69%
  • 6

    6 23.08%
  • 5

    5 19.23%
  • 4

    1 3.85%
  • 3

    1 3.85%
  • 2

    0 0%
  • 1 - Glad Yesterday is Over Cause Tomorrow Will Be Much Better.

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  1. #61
    Forum Whiz DoubleDevil's Avatar
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    Trust is a huge issue in relationships but I disagree that Olicity (at the moment) is facing a trust crisis. I don't see Oliver not informing Felicity a matter of him not trusting her, quite the contrary. If there's a question of trust in their relationship it's Felicity not trusting Oliver that should be brought to the forefront here. Of course we'll never see any mature handling of a romantic relationship here on the CW but not giving Oliver time to breathe, let alone decide if he wishes to divulge the information he just discovered, is flat out spinning his actions completely out of context for the sake of melodrama.

    If I go by my heart then Oliver lying is well-intentioned and for the good of somebody therefore I give him the benefit of the doubt. If I go by what my mind tells me then I have to give Oliver some leeway because lying is such a pivotal part of his survival that he can't just stop because he's now found the girl of his dreams and his soulmate. Either way I'll side with Oliver unless the lie is truly some huge thing that is simply unforgivable, until then every time Felicity wants to break up with him over his lies I'll see her as trying to blame a failed relationship on Oliver instead of admitting he's not the man she thought he was.
    Last edited by DoubleDevil; 12-05-2015 at 06:32 PM.

  2. #62
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    Finally they show Oliver's kid. But it's gonna drag on till people get annoyed with it. And it seemed like this was more of a Flash episode than Arrow. They focused more on Barry and only the side stuff was about Arrow stuff.

  3. #63
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDevil View Post
    If there's a question of trust in their relationship it's Felicity not trusting Oliver that should be brought to the forefront here.
    I would say this came to the forefront more in timeline 1, when Felicity threw down on the trust issue during the worst possible time. He gave the reasonable explanation for why he needed time to process (setting aside that he only did this after the lie was revealed), so knowing this and his lying ways -- and her still dishing it out on him showed from her end that she didn't trust that Ollie would come clean to her, and assumed this is the case. Which he said he would tell her, once he digested the news.

    It's timeline 2 where we don't know many things. Timeline 1's events informed us about possible reactions from them, were it to play out like this in the current timeline. These events did not happen and, while we have knowledge of Ollie and Felicity's past history, missteps etc. and can guess at how it will play out once the truth is out there, we don't know "this" Ollie will do what we expect from him: he may come clean in the first minute of next episode, or keep her in the dark into 2016 ... or that Felicity will react the way she did in timeline 1: she may automatically confront him with a 'I don't trust you-dealbreaker' rant, or take her own time to process it and give Ollie time to do the same. We just don't know at this point.

    The multiple plates re: Olicity post-secret may have crashed in timeline 1, but they are still spinning in this timeline.

    What I'm saying is Felicity not trusting in Ollie to confide in her was a can of worms that was opened for all to see in timeline 1. In timeline 2, we suspect and with good reason, may expect, that this can will also be opened and spin out the same way. But this can is not opened (yet) to my mind. Felicity doesn't know there's a secret being kept therefore no current reason for her to be on the offensive re: trust in Ollie, Ollie hasn't admitted that he needs to process the news (only Barry may have an inkling about this?) -- all of which did happen in timeline 1.

    I guess I can say criticism of how Felicity may react to a truth once it's revealed or Ollie taking the time or not to process it, while merited due to what we know about them, is (to me) a post-dated check that fans can truly cash -- when this event actually does happen. Right now, they're on a couch in the loft, nothing wrong in their world .. because she doesn't know any better and Ollie isn't ready to change this now-false comfort zone.

    And I do think they relish the thought of giving Ollie very little time to get his head around it, before they feed him to the wolves of melodrama. Darkh going full-court press in the next episode makes this seem likely.

  4. #64
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteelyGal View Post
    For me, I could do without all this Oliver/ Felicity drama. My fear was this ship would devour other character's screen time and take away from the action and sadly that is what has happened. That being said, I am giving Oliver a pass on this lie because it comes nowhere near what he did to Diggle by putting his wife and child in danger. If Diggle can come to grips with what Oliver did and forgive him, then so can Felicity for this lie. If the writers plan on riding this Felicity / Oliver melodrama train all the way to the end of the series, I'll be getting off at the next stop.
    Yeah, what Ollie did to Diggle and family was about as low he could possibly go as far as his lying goes. Backing the lead hero is fine under most circumstances, but here was one situation Ollie landed squarely on the wrong side. Inexcusable comes to mind. I've yet to read anything so far that could ever rationalize his allegedly strategic lie as just and right. Ends did not justify the means.

    This should rightly have been a deal-breaker in Diggle's friendship and ended it for good. In a real and rational world it would have, no father would tolerate this from a friend. As bad as the lying goes at the moment re: Olicity, Ollie's lie that put Diggle's family in peril was practically unforgivable. On this front, Diggle was more merciful that Ollie ever deserved. At least Ollie stayed in the bromance doghouse for an ep. or two just so that it could be (barely) credible as fallout. Ollie somehow getting a reprieve from Diggle stretched believability for me in ways that even this current Olicity mess couldn't match.

    (I'd say in an Earth 2 (3, 4, 5 ...) that Ollie's betrayal of Diggle here turns Diggle to the dark side and turns him into a Punisher-like ruthless badass that wages war on sanctimonious vigilantes who place innocents in danger for iffy objectives. That would be an axe I would be more than fine watching Diggle grind.)

    The connection between what Arrow aspired to be in S1 and the Flarrowverse amalgam we've got as of this crossover has frayed to such an extent that I think "cutting-edge" and "ground-breaking" can safely be extracted from the vocabulary in describing any of these shows, Flash and LOT included. They've been pitching "New" Coke to us re: Arrow because the network wants New Coke and segments of the viewership want New Coke and think New Coke is great, when many fans from S1 liked and even loved "Old" Coke aka S1's Arrow and saw little wrong with it. (Millennials: Google New Coke.)

    I think the canary in the cave heads-up for me that they were embracing "New" Coke aka the Ollie that evolved from S2 to now, was when they revealed Slade's love for Shado(???) was going to factor in his rivalry and split with Ollie/Arrow. Here we go again, I was thinking back then. While the S1 finale may be the clean break between close-to-canon Ollie and the Ollie of today, I think the Arrow I got hooked on "died" for good when they invoked melodrama in the Ollie-Slade rivalry.

    I'm still invested in some of Arrow's characters, Flash's too, but I've accepted for some time now that the Arrow I knew in S1 is no longer the Arrow I know in S4. I'm still optimistic that they at least know that many fans didn't blindly love New Coke-heavy S3 and that they need to at least give us some Old Coke in the S4 menu to retain its core viewers.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by katakombs View Post
    When Barry told Oliver their plan failed in the other timeline, he gave three reasons: 1. Oliver's head wasn't in the game; 2. Kendra couldn't access her powers; and 3. the gauntlets didn't work.
    This is where I have issues with Barry in this episode, he may act more mature than Oliver does, but he is also far more naive.

    I completely disagree with point number 1. Oliver is able to compartmentalize, something you would expect from such a seasoned veteran; as he sets out to prepare the plan for the attack of Vandal Savage he visibly takes a breath and then moves on. At that point his head is one hundred percent in the game.

    Furthermore I place the blame on him for Oliver choosing to lie in timeline 2. Barry was not present for the fight yet he relays news of it to Oliver like he was privy not only to everything said but also the thoughts and motivations behind each party. He strongly implies that Felicity leaves Oliver because he has a kid. Not really surprising that Oliver is reluctant to tell Felicity after he hears that nugget.

    I agree on the last point completely and somewhat on the second point. During the fight in timeline 1 Carter was just as useless as Kendra and for no reason, I feel that if they had portrayed him with any combat ability timeline 1 would have went much better up to the point where the gauntlets failed.

    The team addressing point 2 did lead to improvements, I will acknowledge that, I just don't believe that they were foreseeable benefits, even with Barry's hindsight. Without Cisco helping Kendra regain her memories they wouldn't have been able to fix the gauntlets;to me, this was less of Barry using his knowledge of the future to fix the past but rather, the team stumbling across the answers needed in their quest to fix a nonissue that Barry misinterpreted.

  6. #66
    Site Groupie Shelby Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDevil View Post
    Oliver's "lie" was an omission of facts until he had time to process the information he had just discovered and that I don't consider a lie, it's an omission of facts awaiting processing. Sure Oliver could've said "Hey, I think I might have a son that I knew absolutely nothing about until today and I need to find out if it's true." but quite frankly it's none of her business until Oliver decides what HE wants to do about it, then no matter what he decides he needs to inform Felicity. If he doesn't THEN he's lying to her.
    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDevil View Post
    Trust is a huge issue in relationships but I disagree that Olicity (at the moment) is facing a trust crisis. I don't see Oliver not informing Felicity a matter of him not trusting her, quite the contrary. If there's a question of trust in their relationship it's Felicity not trusting Oliver that should be brought to the forefront here. Of course we'll never see any mature handling of a romantic relationship here on the CW but not giving Oliver time to breathe, let alone decide if he wishes to divulge the information he just discovered, is flat out spinning his actions completely out of context for the sake of melodrama.


    I do understand the various viewpoints, enjoy reading them, and can see how people would have varying opinions about Oliver’s failure to tell Felicity about William at end of the episode and what that means. However the way I view the situation is more consistent with aspect’s of DoubleDevil’s views.

    One way I think about an "omission of facts" type of lie is to view it as the failure to disclose relevant information in a timely manner. So I think there’s 2 components to that:
    1. Willingness to disclose the information
    2. Timeliness of disclosure (very subjective!)

    So, did Oliver meet criteria #1? Yes, in both timelines after verifying the truth with Samantha he made a point of letting Samantha know that he wanted to tell Felicity. Samantha nixing that did not cancel out his desire to tell Felicity. That still exists. He wants to -- is willing to -- tell Felicity.

    What about criteria #2? Well, who can really say, for every individual person and for each particular situation, what would be “timely” disclosure? Of course there will be great variability here. There’s no “one size fits all.” Now, if Samantha had consented to Oliver’s request, it is very possible (though not known for sure) that Oliver would have told Felicity within a minimum of a day or so (guesstimate). The fact that Oliver was not able to tell her within that timeframe had nothing to do with Oliver’s true preference and everything to do with an obstacle named “Samantha.” The timeliness of a disclosure cannot be divorced from the circumstances. This is not about Oliver being able to act within “an ideal world” setting and he can’t be judged against such a standard. This is about Oliver having to deal with the various constraints imposed upon him (and over which he may have varying degrees of ability to influence) in a particular situation, as it exists in the real world (well, real CW world, that is).

    Of course that’s not to say that despite the “Samantha” obstacle, Oliver could not have still disclosed the information, but the “Samantha” obstacle was the factor that changes the timeframe of the disclosure, rather than Oliver’s particular feelings about Felicity.

    So, again, I don’t see in this situation that Oliver’s decision is about him feeling that he can’t trust Felicity.

    In fact, it is possible that he feels secure enough and trusts enough in her love (blech ) that he feels like he can take the risk of not telling her as soon as he would have preferred, had he not encountered an external impediment. Maybe he trusts Felicity so much (double blech ) that when he is finally able to tell her, he thinks she’ll be understanding and sympathetic as to why he couldn’t tell her sooner. (Although I think this argument could be refuted by our knowledge that he does receive information from Barry that something about his discussion with Felicity concerning his son triggered a major argument….)

    Again, I think this is all about what kind of risks Oliver is/is not willing to take where William is concerned, and part of the limitation at this point is that he just needs more time to gather additional information and interact more with both William and Samantha in order to figure this out.

    Clearly he was not willing to take the risk of telling Samantha that he would not make the promise to keep William’s paternity a secret.

    So, the next two risks he faces are:

    1. Promise Samantha but then break the promise and risk being found out – Downside: Samantha’s distrust increases along with lots of other negative emotions, with potential huge negative impact on the building-a-relationship-with-William project as well as direct impact on William’s emotional health related to tense relationship between Samantha/Oliver or no relationship with father etc.

    2. Keep the secret from Felicity (prolong the time to disclosure of relevant information) and risk being found out by her or angering her when he finally does disclose: Downside: strained relationship/potential break up with Felicity. Impact on William: minimal, certainly much less than with Risk #1

    So, again, I think purely from the viewpoint of making the least risky moves where William is concerned, it only makes sense for Oliver to avoid risk #1. Risk #2 is the safer risk to take if William is his first priority.

    Also in a way, it’s kind of funny to think that the very thing Oliver is being condemned for (lying to Felicity) is because he is, so far, keeping his promise (and thus choosing not to lie) to Samantha. I think if he’s going to lie to one person, the lie should at least be to support the scenario which poses the lesser risk to William.

    I don’t agree with extracting promises under duress, but if the whole point of agreeing to the promise is to attempt to gain Samantha’s trust, then if he truly wants her trust, shouldn’t he at least make a good-faith effort to keep that promise? His best bet in hoping to build/repair his relationship with Samantha is to act as much as possible from a place of high standards (the higher road). To justify breaking a promise to her merely b/c she herself is acting from a place of low standards (the low road) would seem to be to allow Samantha’s actions to dictate his actions. Thus, his behavior becomes reactive. Whereas the whole goal is to gain her trust so that she, too, can begin to act from a place of higher standards and thus begin working with him on a constructive solution for what is best and healthiest for William. Not to mention, he also needs to build, or at least try to build, a long-term sustainable cordial relationship with Samantha, if he truly wants to do what is best for William.

    And in fact, in my viewpoint, this is exactly the risk Felicity should prefer that Oliver take (ie keep the promise to Samantha and thereby delay disclosure of information to Felicity), because it shows that when it comes down to it, he is willing to make a great sacrifice (potentially lose the love of Felicity) for the sake of his son. And that is potentially good news for Felicity, because, if this is the man she wants to marry and have children with, that is exactly the kind of man she should want as the father of her children (putting aside all the vigilante stuff of course): a man who will be there for his children, even when it means making tough personal sacrifices.

    And with regard to this particular risk (possibly losing Felicity’s love), well a lot of that is completely within Felicity’s control and how she chooses to view the situation. If she decides to make this about her and not about William, then yes, she should leave and Oliver will lose her (although if that is the case, then what did he really lose?). But if she can trust that Oliver loves her, can understand that everything in Oliver’s life is not about her, can understand and appreciate the importance of a child to the parent, then she should be able to make it through this. When she finally finds out about the secret and lie, rather than immediately jumping down his throat and accusing him of not loving and trusting her, she could say, “You must have had a good reason for why you couldn’t tell me sooner and I’m willing to listen.” And she can say, “I’m sure you were doing the best you could in some very difficult circumstances and I want to hear about it.” However if she could and actually did say any of that, well then she wouldn’t be Felicity and she wouldn’t be on the CW. So, whatever….

    I guess the reason why I view and interpret the scenario in this way, and why I would actually be very comfortable if my partner kept me out of the loop for quite a while, is because I think the #1 priority here has to be the child and that is what I would expect my partner’s priority to be as well: his child. And so I see everything about this as very much focused on following the best strategy possible that reasonably favors the least amount of risk to the child. And if I couldn’t trust my partner enough to give him the benefit of the doubt with regard to his actions, then I shouldn’t be with him in the first place and I wouldn't. So, I guess I view this and judge Oliver and his actions/decisions (at this point in time) from a mostly strategic standpoint and that informs my opinions here. But again, obviously there are many other very valid ways of feeling about and considering the situation.



  7. #67
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    Outside of the Olicity bubble and all the issues they have to sort out even before this episode (if only they sorted them out off-screen ), a couple of things played a large part in complicating and muddling it up.

    • The nature of the secret.

    This is Ollie finding out he has a son. Never mind that Savage is threatening to wipe out the world as he knows it -- the life Ollie knew pre-William is changed forever, even if Barry never time traveled or Savage never showed up. There's no going back. So every action and decision going forward will always have to consider how his son fits into it or is impacted by it. Olicity as it stood prior to this episode can never be the same after this, as William was never a factor in their relationship prior to this episode. It's going to be something different -- to evolve and/or regress in any number of ways.

    • The time travel variable.

    This gave Barry an opportunity to see how some poor decisions impacted timeline 1 -- and he was able to bring this knowledge, that no one else has, into timeline 2. His divulging this knowledge in timeline 2 altered how timeline 2's history progressed the moment he uttered it. He inserted knowledge obtained in timeline 1 that did not exist yet in timeline 2.

    Timeline 2 Ollie possesses knowledge that he would not have known had Barry kept mum about it. Sadly, it was second-hand -- and Barry didn't exactly give accurate info re: fallout with Felicity in timeline 1 -- so it was a one-two punch of Ollie getting future knowledge that was also not entirely accurate. Barry giving this info and Ollie now being able to act on it or not is itself an act of screwing with the timeline unfolding. (Cisco hinted at this when he didn't want to hear about Barry's time travel jumping). And in this universe, screwing with the timeline means the timeline will screw you. Every advantage from this forbidden future knowledge must be balanced ... the question is what toll will be taken to even it out.

    • Savage's arrival

    The Arrow and Flash crew are notorious for making bad decisions, even if the world isn't at stake. Multiply this a thousand-fold when it's crunch time and Savage threatens an apocalypse.
    Ollie's getting sandwiched in at all sides. Under pressure, the odds were always slim that Ollie or anyone on their team could make a reasoned decision. In the context Ollie found himself in, with an apocalypse beckoning and having to lead his team into a fight no one could be sure they could survive let alone win, it didn't bode well.

    The only way they prevailed was that Barry brought knowledge of timeline 1 with him and they were able to use it. But even this victory will come at a price. They changed the outcome of their battle and Malcolm sweeping up Savage's ashes alluded that karma will come a-knockin'.

    As for the Son of Queen subplot, it sounds like the tension in Olicity will be more than a minor spat about Ollie forgetting to take out the trash in time for garbage day. They are going to milk those secrets and lies like nobody's business, if we take the showrunners' views at face value:

    “It’s definitely going to come to a head in the middle of the season,” Mericle told reporters during a screening this week. “I can't tell you exactly how that's going to happen. But...obviously for the arc of Oliver and Felicity's relationship this season, the fact that he's keeping this from her—true to what we've done on the show, if there's a secret somewhere, it's going to come out and it's going to have some serious consequences.”

    “We're really excited about how that's going to change things and it's really going to raise the stakes and throw some wrenches into the works of their relationship — which so far this season has been pretty smooth sailing,” Mericle added. “True to form, we're going to really mine that. There'll be some fallout for both of them.”


    Brace yourselves, Arrow fans.

  8. #68
    Site Groupie Shelby Kent's Avatar
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    ^ Nice overview! I especially like the points you raise about the time travel

  9. #69
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    I like time travel stories in general, I would use straws to explain it all if I could, and I devoured Continuum from start to finish.

    If there was an alpha branch of the Flarrowverse timeline, Arrow is definitely no longer it in and hasn't been for some time. And I think the Flarrowverse prior to the crossover was existing in the new timeline Barry created the last time he made a time jump on his show. That timeline is gone as of the crossover, everyone but Barry died in it. I'm going on the assumption that time travel doesn't stop at the CC borders. Or at least shouldn't.

    Think of the alpha timeline as the tree trunk of the space-time continuum and each Barry jump creating a new branch sprouting from it. Timeline 1 (the "everyone dies" one) is now a dead branch that had fallen off the trunk. Barry created a timeline 2 branch, and I would say his injecting timeline 1 knowledge into timeline 2 caused another branch to sprout off this new one. This would be where they are now. (There may be timelines where Barry tells all and they still lose to Savage. Or one where Barry tells nothing and they manage to win against Savage anyway.) [*Thanks, Continuum, for the time travel tree analogy.]

    Just on the time travel messing up things, timeline 2's people are sooo screwwwwwed. I see it like a Jenga tower. You can only pull out and redistribute so many blocks before the whole thing topples over.

  10. #70
    Forum Whiz DoubleDevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    As for the Son of Queen subplot, it sounds like the tension in Olicity will be more than a minor spat about Ollie forgetting to take out the trash in time for garbage day. They are going to milk those secrets and lies like nobody's business, if we take the showrunners' views at face value:

    “It’s definitely going to come to a head in the middle of the season,” Mericle told reporters during a screening this week. “I can't tell you exactly how that's going to happen. But...obviously for the arc of Oliver and Felicity's relationship this season, the fact that he's keeping this from her—true to what we've done on the show, if there's a secret somewhere, it's going to come out and it's going to have some serious consequences.”

    “We're really excited about how that's going to change things and it's really going to raise the stakes and throw some wrenches into the works of their relationship — which so far this season has been pretty smooth sailing,” Mericle added. “True to form, we're going to really mine that. There'll be some fallout for both of them.”


    Brace yourselves, Arrow fans.
    Ugh... I guess that the showrunners think Oliver's "omission of information awaiting further processing" is enough material for grade A teenage soap opera. I'm not against teen material, I enjoyed Mockingjay and Mazerunner, but I've never been a fan of General Hospital or The Young and the Restless so this information takes Arrow off of my "watch whenever I have time to spare" list. I'll be joining Carmine-Infantino throwing rotten tomatoes at a show that could've been worthwhile entertainment.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    I like time travel stories in general, I would use straws to explain it all if I could, and I devoured Continuum from start to finish.

    If there was an alpha branch of the Flarrowverse timeline, Arrow is definitely no longer it in and hasn't been for some time. And I think the Flarrowverse prior to the crossover was existing in the new timeline Barry created the last time he made a time jump on his show. That timeline is gone as of the crossover, everyone but Barry died in it. I'm going on the assumption that time travel doesn't stop at the CC borders. Or at least shouldn't.

    Think of the alpha timeline as the tree trunk of the space-time continuum and each Barry jump creating a new branch sprouting from it. Timeline 1 (the "everyone dies" one) is now a dead branch that had fallen off the trunk. Barry created a timeline 2 branch, and I would say his injecting timeline 1 knowledge into timeline 2 caused another branch to sprout off this new one. This would be where they are now. (There may be timelines where Barry tells all and they still lose to Savage. Or one where Barry tells nothing and they manage to win against Savage anyway.) [*Thanks, Continuum, for the time travel tree analogy.]

    Just on the time travel messing up things, timeline 2's people are sooo screwwwwwed. I see it like a Jenga tower. You can only pull out and redistribute so many blocks before the whole thing topples over.
    Loved Continuum, but still need to watch the final season which is a perfect excuse to just rewatch the whole thing!

    I really like thinking about time travel, though I usually don't get very far b/c I can literally feel the my neural pathways getting all tangled up! But doesn't stop me from trying anyway, and I like the analogy you provide with the branching. It is very helpful.

    Now, in the 2 (and 2a) branch that you describe what I'm trying to figure out is: okay Barry in the 2 branch is the only one who made it over from the 1 branch (from events of cross-over). So Ollie et al who are populating branch 2 can't be Ollie et al from branch 1. But should there not also be a Barry who is "native" to 2 branch and thus now theoretically there should be two Barrys, or no?

  12. #72
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    I think there should already have been a Barry pre-existing in timeline 2 when the time traveling Barry from timeline 1 arrived. I'm not sure if Flash ever got into this beyond Earth 2 versions being different or altered, but I think by creating a new timeline, he enters a universe that exists without knowing timeline 1 Barry time traveled.

    There should be a timeline 2 Barry already living in this timeline. One native to timeline 2, as you said. Timeline 1 Barry entered this timeline as a visitor/unwelcome guest. He shouldn't be here and there should be consequences. Maybe he'll run into an alternate Barry unknown to him, like a 'Dark' Barry who's not a cop but a criminal. It would fit into the karma exacting a price theme, with the big caveat that timeline 2's people know Barry as we know him.

    So it seems that when Barry enters a timeline he "becomes" the Barry that existed there prior to his arrival. In this case, timeline 2 Barry is erased and replaced by the invading timeline 1 Barry.

    So the Barry in timeline 2 is still "timeline 1 Barry", the proof being that he brought timeline 1 knowledge into timeline 2. Barring something nutty like time traveling Barrys sharing info between themselves prior to jumping into a new timeline (then this Barry could have come from anywhere!), this is the same Barry who could have died with his timeline 1 friends had he not run and time traveled.

    Timeline 1's Teams Arrow and Flash, save Barry, are gone after Savage's victory there. And with them, their timeline, assuming no one survived (it looked like a world's end total victory for Savage).

  13. #73
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    Okay, so maybe as long as native T2 Barry doesn't meet up with, and thus become contaminated by information from, T1 Barry who is now in T2, then native T2 Barry continues along undisturbed in the T2 branch; whereas T1 Barry, by bringing new information into T2, thereby immediately creates T2a and so he is no longer in T2; so native T2 Barry can continue to exist in T2, and T1 Barry is now in T2a and becomes T2a Barry. If the necessary condition for the existence of T2a was the introduction of information into T2 specifically by T1 Barry, then there was no pre-exisiting T2a and thus no pre-existing T2a Barry; and therefore T1 Barry does not cancel out or erase another Barry in T2a.....????? (Well, wrong or right, whatever, that's about enough of trying to think about that for my brain!)

  14. #74
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    T2a might be the start of a new offshoot branch, a brave new world with T2 parameters but now altered by T1 Barry's new information. This would make this Barry ... the alpha-Barry within this offshoot (no native Barry) which would not exist without this Barry's entry. I don't think it's a T3 -- this would require Barry to run for time travel and jump into another timeline.

    Considering how cataclysmic all these time alterations could be to the current incarnations of Teams Arrow and Flash, Malcolm could just pull up a chair, make some popcorn and just watch the universe crumble beneath the weight of the corrupted timelines.

    (Timeline 3: In a world where Savage dies by the hand of the Heir to the Demon, Thea, who survives an LOA civil war siding with Malcolm against Nyssa. Defeated, Nyssa seeks refuge with ARGUS. Tommy, adopted son of Robert Queen takes on the mantle of the GA, fighting Adam Hunt the most ruthless underworld kingpin in SC. Oliver Queen returns from an uneventful yachting vacation and becomes the playboy dilettante everyone thinks he is ... the public face of the Queen family, with no real power while Moira is still firmly in charge.):

    "Barry: You just had to tell me to run in timeline 1, didn't you!

    Ollie: Maybe I said it, but you didn't have to run so fast you changed the timeline. Look at me! I'm three belt sizes bigger, Thea just backed a coup in Markovia, Ray Palmer is launching a hostile takeover of Queen Industries, I'm engaged to Isabel Rochev, my cholesterol is through the roof ... and I just found out Iris West is carrying my babies! Triplets!!

    Barry: Iris? Triplets? Seriously? You son-of-a-

    Oliver: "Run, Barry, run"?!? All this is on you, bro.

    Malcolm (watching): This is better than Netflix! *fist bumps His Serene Highness, Emperor of the New Americas, Harrison I (Wells) of Earth-19*"

  15. #75
    Site Groupie Shelby Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    (Timeline 3: In a world where Savage dies by the hand of the Heir to the Demon, Thea, who survives an LOA civil war siding with Malcolm against Nyssa. Defeated, Nyssa seeks refuge with ARGUS. Tommy, adopted son of Robert Queen takes on the mantle of the GA, fighting Adam Hunt the most ruthless underworld kingpin in SC. Oliver Queen returns from an uneventful yachting vacation and becomes the playboy dilettante everyone thinks he is ... the public face of the Queen family, with no real power while Moira is still firmly in charge.):

    "Barry: You just had to tell me to run in timeline 1, didn't you!

    Ollie: Maybe I said it, but you didn't have to run so fast you changed the timeline. Look at me! I'm three belt sizes bigger, Thea just backed a coup in Markovia, Ray Palmer is launching a hostile takeover of Queen Industries, I'm engaged to Isabel Rochev, my cholesterol is through the roof ... and I just found out Iris West is carrying my babies! Triplets!!

    Barry: Iris? Triplets? Seriously? You son-of-a-

    Oliver: "Run, Barry, run"?!? All this is on you, bro.

    Malcolm (watching): This is better than Netflix! *fist bumps His Serene Highness, Emperor of the New Americas, Harrison I (Wells) of Earth-19*"

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