View Poll Results: Rate This Episode

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  • 10 - Legendary

    5 19.23%
  • 9

    3 11.54%
  • 8

    3 11.54%
  • 7

    2 7.69%
  • 6

    6 23.08%
  • 5

    5 19.23%
  • 4

    1 3.85%
  • 3

    1 3.85%
  • 2

    0 0%
  • 1 - Glad Yesterday is Over Cause Tomorrow Will Be Much Better.

    0 0%
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  1. #46
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    I'd agree that, when writers work on characters that they don't normally work on in these crossovers, we get things like Barry being caught in the blowback of the Son of Queen soap opera with his ridiculous see it-can't see it paternity test pocketing. It looks bad on him, both for not being able to keep a friend's confidence (Ollie) and not being entirely honest with someone who is a friend (Felicity). Flash fans should be ticked 1) because the LOT part 1 turned the Flash subplot with Jay into a passing sideshow and 2) Barry got roped into melodrama that's not even part of his show. He was shoved into that spinning merry-go-round, it reflected poorly on him -- and he's not even in the relationship!

    Ollie has been suffering from "do as I say, not as I do" -itis throughout the series. Why does he not retain the lessons he allegedly learns each season, then promptly forgets in next season? He should know by this point that keeping secrets/telling lies will do him and those he cares about more harm that good. Admitting he's not as mature as Barry is a tiny start in this direction -- but what does he do with this new self-awareness now that he has it? It looks like he's not applying this new wisdom if he chooses in both timelines to keep Felicity in the dark.

    I guess I need to repeat what I said earlier. In timeline 1 (the Olicity spat/"break" one), both Ollie and Felicity were both wrong ... and both right. No one gets a monopoly on being right or a pass on being wrong. Ollie was right in that he did need time on his own to process life-changing news re: son without immediately seeking input/approval/advice. Felicity was right in that, as his girlfriend/life partner/"soulmate", keeping a secret, any secret from her demonstrated that he has doubts if he can trust her.

    Here's where they were both wrong. Ollie stated why he felt he couldn't tell her (albeit after he had lied to her face and she outed it). I think if he had given the "I need the time to process all this" explanation to her to begin with, ideally before Felicity uncovered the paternity test, she would have been more understanding -- with the full expectation that he would tell her the truth once he processed it. He didn't do this. This rational move doesn't fly if he says this and still doesn't tell her. Fine, he needed his space but he'd have to still tell her at the end of it.

    After hearing Ollie's explanation, Felicity still had a right to be mad about the lying (I agree this is the biggest offence here) -- but knowing what was behind Ollie's reticence, maybe she also could have done the more mature, non-CW thing (a big ask for anyone on these shows) and not escalate it further by invoking the matter of trust issue when the team was about to go into battle. She could have totally taken him to task about it -- it was a matter of trust issue -- but after the Savage battle was done, back at the Olicity loft. By all means Felicity, spell it out to him. Call him out on it. I basically would have preferred that she post-dated Ollie's well-deserved chewing-out check till after Savage had bit the dust.

    But this would be too mature and less melodramatic for a CW show during a two-show crossover that also launches a new show. Of course they ran with the Olicity break-up with the team on the verge of suiting up for a battle no one was certain they could win.

    If we must reduce it to lesser vs. greater sin, Ollie's is the worst re: lying, while Felicity's is more in the handling of the situation aka she's right on principle -- but picking that particular time to confront him was not ideal. She had the right to get into it with Ollie, this is not in doubt. Was it the best time to get into it with him right then, with their teams on-deck and possibly facing a do-or-die battle with a foe that is leagues above their pay grade?

    On the flip side, did Ollie consider that dealing with his paternity issues now, with Savage at his doorstep, wasn't ideal either. I think it would be fair to say neither of them were thinking rationally/clinically about it in that moment, with emotions and the end is nigh scenario at play.

    Context and timing is everything here. TPTB wanted to ramp up the tension, having them quarrel with Teams Arrow and Flash about to go on the offensive against Savage. Yet another reason a subplot of this potential magnitude shouldn't have been wedged in a LOT prequel and two-part crossver episode, but LOT railroading through Arrow episodes is a rant box I've stood on before.

    As this timeline (and everyone, save Flash) was obliterated, what transpired in timeline 1 is a moot point, none of it happened -- except re: Ollie's choice in timeline 2 to still keep the secret from Felicity. At least in timeline 1, the trust issue was exposed. Once caught in the lie, he could not pretend trust wasn't a factor.

    In timeline 2 (the current one) Felicity is unaware that trust may be an issue between them. Ollie is choosing, unfairly, to keep her in ignorance -- not only about the secret but about the looming issue of why he felt he couldn't tell her.

    This is far worse, a potential deal-breaker issue, and the time Ollie needed to address this issue was yesterday. And, yes, it's the kind of issue that will either tear them apart or, having survived its fallout may make them stronger. I'm open to either scenario, and either is preferable to Olicity "as-is" and unaltered.

    The score tally for this 2015 crossover is:

    Arrow 1 - due to their advancing a potential game-changer subplot amid the LOT chaos. They defied the odds here in spite of the crossover bloatedness.

    Flash 0 - due to the double punch of Flash plots being a footnote in their own crossover and Barry being forced to guest star in Olicity's relationship troubles ... and experiencing blowback from it.

    I can't score LOT yet because I'm awaiting a ruling from the commissioner's office about whether LOT invading two shows during these crossovers was sensible or not. I'm thinking Arrow and Flash will be screwed on the call.

  2. #47
    Site Groupie Shelby Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteelyGal View Post
    Oliver's world had just been turned upside down and he was trying to cope with it. Instead of giving him support when he obliviously could have used it, she let him have it by saying that if he loved her and trusted her, he would have told her.
    In this particular scenario she is shown to be lacking in empathy and compassion. Possibly b/c she is fundamentally insecure.

    She also seems to believe in a model of “love” based on the fusion of emotional/psychological boundaries of two partners -- (as when she told Oliver that they lost and found themselves in each other in Lost Souls) -- rather than a model whereby a loving relationship consists of two individuals, each autonomous beings with their own desires, needs, and goals, choosing to be together and make a life together, but doing so with the realization that neither can perfectly be “all” for, or completely meet the needs of, the other -- as each individual is a uniquely multidimensional person who will encounter, over the course of his/her lifetime, many other people and events/struggles that will lead to growth and transformation and to the “discovery” over and over again of new and changing aspects of the self.

    The “fusion” model is more consistent with the perspective of the infant, a naturally narcissistic viewpoint, in which there is no understanding that the parent exists as a separate being with his/her own agenda, needs and goals. The infant cannot love because to love is to respect another as a separate individual with unique needs and desires. As the infant grows and matures into child/teen/adult and leaves behind the fully narcissistic viewpoint, realizing and appreciating that other people exist with their own legitimate needs and agendas, the child/teen/adult becomes capable of love. Felicity is immature in many ways and that includes how she “loves” Oliver. She cannot understand that what is most central to her agenda here (her need to soothe her hurt and fears, which have been generated by the insecurity she feels at being lied to) is not most central to Oliver at this point in time. And because, in her immaturity, she cannot consider him other than as an object -- (as the parent is to the infant) -- that exists to meet her needs(ie her need to feel secure and loved), she cannot perceive his needs or even really understand the idea that they would exist (because how, in this “fused love” model can the “other” [Oliver] have any needs other than the exact same needs of the partner [Felicity] -- “two become one”, as it were)?

    So, while the healthier approach would be to be able to perform emotional “triage” and temporarily set aside her need to address with Oliver her feelings (which are certainly valid) in favor of the need to understand and appreciate the inarguably greater trauma Oliver must be going through upon first learning of the existence of his son, Felicity simply isn’t capable of this type of mature and healthy love at this point in time.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelyGal View Post
    I don't like the idea his argument with Felicity caused him to fail the mission and get everyone killed. Every great leader is able to compartmentalized things. They don't let problems in one area of their life negatively impact others. Until Oliver can do this, he will not be a great leader.
    Agree. And in this respect Felicity, in her inability to understand the need to compartmentalize, often serves as an obstacle for Oliver when he needs to do so. But it is still Oliver's responsibility not to let her serve as a distraction (not that I don't feel some sympathy for his struggles in this situation nor do I absolve Felicity -- as a willing member of team Arrow -- of the need to learn to exercise some emotional self-restraint when the situation calls for it....)

    For instance, in Sara, when Oliver had to temporarily set aside his emotional reaction to the death of Sara in order to focus on urgent matters (trying to keep Laurel from seeking vengeance and keeping her safe, pursuing Komodo, and trying to locate and stop the Arrow imitator) Felicity was incapable of understanding this and likely contributed to his stress by insisting on having an argument with him about his response, or rather what she considered to be his non-response. While, certainly, it mattered that at some point he address his feelings about Sara’s death, to do so at that point in time would have benefited no one, except possibly Felicity who was struggling with her own feelings and needed someone to tend to her emotional needs. From her perspective she could not see that Oliver’s primary needs were not identical to hers (see above comments regarding her inability to understand things from Oliver’s perspective despite her belief that she loved him). In Sara, however, Oliver did succeed in being a leader: he did not allow distractions, such as Felicity’s need to put her emotional needs front and center, to disrupt his focus and deter him from the mission.

  3. #48
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    When Barry told Oliver their plan failed in the other timeline, he gave three reasons: 1. Oliver's head wasn't in the game; 2. Kendra couldn't access her powers; and 3. the gauntlets didn't work.

    Hearing that, Oliver went to Cisco to get him to talk to Kendra so she could access her powers. When she did, she remembered that the Staff of Horus was connected to the falling rocks, Felicity, Cisco and Caitlin put together the clues, Barry got the meteorite and that made the gauntlets work.

    The second time Oliver told Diggle, Thea and Laurel to go with them. They helped somewhat but it came to the point that the Hawks had to save Thea.

    What really saved the city the second time is that Kendra remembered and they got the gauntlets to work. That was a result of Barry telling Oliver what went wrong the first time and Oliver, with that information, corrected the problems. Nothing to do with the fight with Felicity.

    Yes, Felicity should have waited (although she didn't know Oliver himself had just found out). And she should have let him explain. But this is the CW and it's time to up the relationship stakes. Emma and Hook are fighting over on Once Upon a Time too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Kent View Post
    In this particular scenario she is shown to be lacking in empathy and compassion. Possibly b/c she is fundamentally insecure.

    She also seems to believe in a model of “love” based on the fusion of emotional/psychological boundaries of two partners -- (as when she told Oliver that they lost and found themselves in each other in Lost Souls) -- rather than a model whereby a loving relationship consists of two individuals, each autonomous beings with their own desires, needs, and goals, choosing to be together and make a life together, but doing so with the realization that neither can perfectly be “all” for, or completely meet the needs of, the other -- as each individual is a uniquely multidimensional person who will encounter, over the course of his/her lifetime, many other people and events/struggles that will lead to growth and transformation and to the “discovery” over and over again of new and changing aspects of the self.
    I worked as a clinical psychologist for a number of years but I have no idea what that means.

    From her perspective she could not see that Oliver’s primary needs were not identical to hers (see above comments regarding her inability to understand things from Oliver’s perspective despite her belief that she loved him).
    As Oliver could not see her need to have feelings about her friend's murder. He kept telling her to "get her head in the game" when she was doing all that she could to find Sara's killer but she needed to process her emotions too. In the end all of the Team left it to Felicity to find Sara's killer while Oliver and Laurel went off on their own tangents.

    For three years Oliver has been screwing things up because he's been making unilateral decisions. Somewhat bad in season 2, really bad in season 3. Now that he has committed to her, the more Oliver says he loves her, the more Felicity has a right to have him treat her as the partner he tells her she is. Instead, what she saw was that he was still making the same mistakes of pushing away those who care about him and could help him.

    For Felicity, the problem was not the existence of the child but the lie. Maybe she is insecure, certainly her history could produce it. But secure or not, I can't see anyone who wants to be in the emotional relationship saying "Oh, you have a secret child that you continue to lie to me about? No problem."

    This is not a small lie. It's not even in the "I was helping Diggle, Laurel and Thea save your city after you bailed" lie. It's a deal-breaker lie for anyone who isn't in the relationship only for the money or status.

    If Diggle had pulled that stunt, Lyla would have had his guts for garters.
    Last edited by katakombs; 12-04-2015 at 08:05 PM.

  4. #49
    Site Groupie Shelby Kent's Avatar
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    Oliver should certainly be careful about choosing to be in an emotional relationship with someone who so flagrantly disregards his boundaries, to the point that she has no respect for his request,(when she presses him about what she perceives as his "off" behavior) that she give him some time before he is ready to talk about things. Clearly there is no room for negotiation in her world; things must happen on HER schedule and that basically means NOW, regardless of the emotional readiness of the other partner. This emotional crowding is very consistent with her perception of being "lost and found within" (fused) with Oliver.

    Nor does she show any respect for the fact that Barry declines to hand her the test results, but she thinks it's appropriate and ethical behavior to snatch it away from him. Clearly she believes she is entitled to have access to any information merely b/c she wants it. She has no respect for anyone's boundaries really.

    Though she may consider herself to be the "wronged" party here, her methods of obtaining her information and her sense of entitlement in doing so, along with her inability to consider the implications of her actions (she feels no guilt or embarrassment at having so blatantly invaded Oliver's privacy or demanding information from Barry, which she clearly believes is her due) reveal that she is an immature and narcissistic partner. This kind of behavior should definitely raise major red flags for Oliver.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superles View Post
    Olicity is more toxic than banging half the city, getting a girl pregnant, running away with Laurel's sister and banging her, banging for what will be 2 seperate women on he island. Coming back and banging laurel's sister again, rubbing it in her face, telling her to go drink, not being able to be in the same room together. Going on life ending missions and not telling laurel anything, and only recently be able to stand each other, and mind you have not said a word to each other since. Sounds really really fake, but okay.

    Olicity is the healthiest relationship Oliver has ever had, compared to Oliver and Laurel is a model relationship.

    This is stalling Oliver and Felicity, that is all its doing. Ill repeat and you guys can post mark this and return to it later by the end of the season. These writers are not subtle at all. The bookend to this season is Oliver proposing a second time, the right way
    A relationship isn't healthy when your break up causes you to mess up to the point that a whole city gets destroyed. But this isn't the healthiest relationship Oliver's ever had. This is just less unhealthy for the woman he's with. Oliver's side is still unhealthy and every relationship he's in will be that if he doesn't find Jesus.

    God bless you! God bless everyone!
    Last edited by Dagenspear; 12-05-2015 at 01:19 PM.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagenspear View Post
    A relationship isn't healthy when your break up causes you to mess up to the point that a whole city gets destroyed.But this isn't the healthiest relationship Oliver's ever had. This is just less unhealthy for the woman he's with. Oliver's side is still unhealthy and every relationship he's in will be that if he doesn't find Jesus.

    God bless you! God bless everyone!
    You do realize they probably won't do that on this show, right? Maybe if it was airing on another channel and rated M..... but not on the CW, teen melodrama central.

  7. #52
    Site Groupie SteelyGal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by katakombs View Post
    ...For Felicity, the problem was not the existence of the child but the lie. Maybe she is insecure, certainly her history could produce it. But secure or not, I can't see anyone who wants to be in the emotional relationship saying "Oh, you have a secret child that you continue to lie to me about? No problem."

    This is not a small lie. It's not even in the "I was helping Diggle, Laurel and Thea save your city after you bailed" lie. It's a deal-breaker lie for anyone who isn't in the relationship only for the money or status.

    If Diggle had pulled that stunt, Lyla would have had his guts for garters.
    I think Felicity repeatedly lying to Oliver about helping out Team Diggle is a big lie. Why did she think she couldn't tell Oliver the truth? Was she afraid he would leave her or tell her to stop? Did she think he wasn't emotionally strong enough to handle the truth?

    In Oliver's case, he is not willfully lying as she did. In essence, what has happened to Oliver is a type of blackmail. He is being told that if you ever wants to see your son again, you will do as I tell you. We see that Oliver is struggling with this difficult choice but has decided not to risk it.

    Once Felicity learns the truth, of course she will be hurt and mad. But, hopefully she will come to an understanding that Oliver was put in a horrible position. Oliver is lying to her because he feels he has no other choice. We can argue that he does but in his mind, he doesn't. That is what makes blackmail so insidious and hopefully Felicity will realized this and be able to forgive hm. But, if she only thinks of herself and how his lie impacted her, then she won't.

  8. #53
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    Like many others, I was excited going into the crossover and ended up underwhelmed. I think that these writers (and the Flash writers too) don't know how to balance this many characters. Thea, Diggle, and Laurel were all criminally underused. And the actor and actress playing Kendra and Carter weren't that great. In general, the story of the Hawks just wasn't all that special to me.

    I think that it was a little strange to have the drama with Samantha and William and Oliver discovering that he's a dad in a two parter that had so much else going on, but I suppose they needed to address that storyline at some point. I'm just going to say that everyone was a little in the wrong and a little in the right in this situation.

    Samantha keeping her son from Oliver wasn't fair to Oliver or to William, however she had good reason to be concerned about the Queens being in his life. And while Oliver has changed since his pre-island days, I can't say that it's any safer to be a part of his life. Not to mention that a kid having a father (or even a father figure) who is not reliably in his life can be damaging. And with how violent things are in Starling City towards mayoral candidates (not to mention vigilantes!) I can understand her wanting to keep Oliver's paternity a secret so her son doesn't get a target painted on his back. However, I am not a huge fan of people asking other people to lie to their significant others. BUT! Felicity isn't exactly good at keeping paternity secrets. Just look at how she spilled the beans about Malcolm being Thea's father, even though it really wasn't her place to do so.

    Oliver shouldn't have lied to Felicity, but in the first timeline, I can see why he would need at least a little time to process the shock of finding out that he's a dad. Felicity made a big mistake in assuming that Oliver would react to things the same as she does. For Felicity, spilling the beans about something seems to be her first nature, particularly when it comes to someone close to her. For Oliver, he needs time to process his emotions before he feels comfortable sharing things. I think that hiding the fact that he has a son in the long term is very wrong indeed, but I don't think it was unreasonable for him to want at least a day to process and deal with it all. Whether or not he would have told her down the line in the first timeline is something we'll never get to know because Felicity didn't give him enough trust in that timeline. She followed him and forced Barry to give her that paper, when she could have given him the chance to figure out what was going on and tell her. I think this ultimately comes down to both Oliver and Felicity having very different expectations of the relationship and what the other person should and shouldn't do/be okay with.

    I'm hoping that if there are any more crossovers this season, they'll be limited to one or two characters crossing over. Last year had some pretty enjoyable moments with Felicity and Ray crossing over to the Flash and getting interactions with the team there, and with Oliver showing up in one of the later episodes and then Barry showing up in the season finale of Arrow, and Laurel and Quentin's crossover to the Flash was really great as well. I think that there was just too much going on in this two parter, though I did really enjoy the Thea-Cisco interactions.

    I'm going to reevaluate whether or not it's worth it to continue with Arrow after the mid-season finale, because I'm a little tired of my favorites being pushed aside for boring relationship drama. I'm glad that some segments of the fandom are enjoying the show, but it's just not my cup of tea these days.

  9. #54
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    I guess I braced myself that this Flash/Arrow crossover wasn't really going to be a true crossover like last season. LOT and introducing Kendra and getting the Hawks from A to B was the priority, so in one sense the Arrow and Flash crews stepping into the background to get this done was expected. (Of course, they've been doing this on Arrow with LOT springboard plots and characters for several episodes already.) Flash fans may be newer to this phenomenon. And, it doesn't do the existing series any real favours. But enough about that for now.

    For the specific LOT stuff, it was work that had to be done, the network egged them on to get LOT things into the crossover and I guess you could say it was mission accomplished: they got Kendra from A to B and, in timeline 1, demonstrated that Savage is a force to be reckoned with and a threat level that both Teams Arrow and Flash would be hard pressed to defeat -- making the LOT team a future necessity. They had to justify the need to have LOT by showing that the current teams are out of their depth, and they did this.

    This is not the same as saying that LOT lived up to the hype, "best show ever" and all that crap. At best, it might have increased my interest slightly. From what we've seen so far, I wouldn't say it's going to be better than the existing Flarrowverse. This is something that has yet to be proven to me and I'd need to see a couple of episodes to see if they're actually going to do something inventive with it or, more likely, just wrap it up in a different package while still using the same playbook from Flash, Arrow (and SV if we want to reach back that far for an alpha-template).

    I think by necessity they could focus mostly on Ollie, Barry, Cisco and Felicity because they knew it was too unwieldy if they incorporated everyone. Would have been nice if they used this time to give a Caitlin, Laurel, Thea etc a chance to share in the creative love that the others have had -- but I think the lukewarm Flash subplot injected in part 1 showed that they can't manage launching LOT, doing a crossover and giving sufficient material for the supporting characters to work with. Ollie, Barry, Cisco and Kendra had to bear much of the weight, fair or not. LOT was the shot-caller in this year's crossover.

    The Son of Queen subplot had been in the works for sometime, so this naturally was going to involve Felicity though I'm not sure she was always intended to be involved in it when they hatched it back in S2. I can only guess they knew it would involve whoever was going to be Ollie's love interest when this subplot was revealed in S4. I can only say that in the timeline 1 scenario, both Ollie and Felicity could be sympathized with -- and criticized on how it played out.

    Ollie bears a larger responsibility due to his defaulting on lying as a fix, though he also has a right to take time to process this life-altering news without having everyone from Felicity, Barry, Thea, Diggle, Laurel and whoever else feels they should have their two cents thrown into the mix. Felicity had every right to call out Ollie on lying (the real issue here, it showed he didn't trust her enough) -- but her fault lay in picking that moment to throw down on principle when the team was gearing up for likely a one-way ticket to apocalypse-ville and the world was literally at stake. Right on principle, wrong on the timing.

    It was Ollie's timeline 2 move that was the worst, he is choosing to keep Felicity in ignorance. The subject of the secret makes it seem like Ollie could excuse himself for choosing his lying ways here, but the crux is the why: why can't he confide in Felicity. The secret could just as easily have been that he falsified his 2013 income taxes, that he stumbled upon a secret offshore tax haven Robert Queen set up for him that's now worth 2 billion dollars, or that he spotted Bruce Wayne putting on a bat cowl behind some 7-Eleven when he stopped by Gotham on business -- the subject of the lie isn't the real problem, it's that he can't trust her enough to reveal it. And until he can answer the "why" for himself, man up and tell Felicity -- whatever the fallout is, including a break-up, then karma will be served.

    After this part 2, Samantha and/or William's odds go up re: being the mystery person in the grave, if we accept Barry's admission that karma and time travel are a tag team. Quentin is still the most predictable and safest bet, which may actually save his life because he's too likely.

  10. #55
    Site Groupie Shelby Kent's Avatar
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    In both timelines it is clear that Oliver wants to tell Felicity about William. That is his preference and he appears upset in both timelines when Samantha nixes the idea. So, in a way, his choice to lie to Felicity hurts him as well.

    (Which of course means that we once again have the hero-suffering-in-silence-b/c-of-his-“noble”-self-sacrifice scenario, always an important staple, of the secrets-and-lies variety, in a CW melodrama … …And that right there, of course, is really the main reason for all of the lying to Felicity, but I digress)

    In timeline 2, by end of the episode Oliver’s options were:

    1. Tell Samantha he would not tell anyone (including Felicity), and then immediately tell Felicity anyway. Whether or not this would violate his personal code about breaking promises that were made under duress, I have no idea. However, if he had no qualms about promising Samantha to keep William’s paternity secret and then told Felicity anyway, there could be unforeseen consequences for which he's not yet had time to develop contingency plans (for instance, Samantha discovering his “betrayal” and the resulting fallout such a discovery might entail).

    2. Tell Samantha that he was not going to be able to make that promise to her and that he was going to tell Felicity. In which case he could anticipate that Samantha might make good on her threats and take certain actions that could further complicate the situation, including affect the quality of any relationship he hopes to build with William.

    3. Tell Samantha he would not tell anyone and then keep the secret for now. Pursuing this option needn’t mean that he couldn’t hope to re-negotiate with Samantha in the very immediate future as events unfold.

    When he speaks with Barry regarding his hesitancy in telling Felicity about William, his hesitancy has nothing to do with Felicity and everything to do with his concerns about what might be best for William. I think, then, that his subsequent actions speak not so much about any trust issues he may or may not have with Felicity, but rather about what he feels he needs to do to ensure the best possible outcome for William. William is what is on his mind.

    Therefore, one could consider giving Oliver the benefit of the doubt and speculate that possibly what is going on here is that Oliver is trying to navigate his way through a very delicate and tricky situation wherein it is almost as if his son is a “hostage” and he needs more time to assess the situation and come up with a strategy that will allow him to do what he feels is best for his son (which may or may not include building a relationship with William, as per his comments to Barry)

    As everyone knows, Oliver plans and leads missions. And in some respects the need to “extricate” some kind of relationship with William could be viewed as another mission, albeit one with a domestic bent and very high personal stakes. Oliver knows how important it is to gather intel, assess a situation, and develop a strategy when he runs his missions. He knows that just blindly blundering into a situation without a careful plan is a mistake. So, either telling Felicity without Samantha's consent or coming up with a way to secure Samantha's consent are both elements that would have to be carefully planned.

    His objectives in this scenario might be:
    1. build a relationship with William (and I assume make sure William knows he is his dad? – unless he’s not yet even sure he wants William to know that),
    2. try to build a cordial relationship with Samantha so as to ensure that they will be able to co-parent William in the best way possible, and
    3. find a way to bring Felicity into the loop ASAP without causing a major blow-up with Samantha which could possibly cause blowback onto his relationship with William.

    Accomplishing these objectives, which involve navigating feelings and relationships and are thus complicated and delicate, may take some time. (Although I do concede that this being the CW the time allotted is likely to be 5-15 minutes tops). So again, it’s possible that just b/c by the end of the episode he does not tell Felicity, it’s not the case that this decision has anything to do with feelings that he can’t trust Felicity. It just may be that he wants to have come up with a plan and/or hopefully be more in control of the situation, and thus more able to contain/deal with any fallout, before telling Felicity. Right now it seems that Samantha is the one with the upper hand and is in control.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Kent View Post
    (Although I do concede that this being the CW the time allotted is likely to be 5-15 minutes tops).
    No. This is the CW. It had to happen yesterday, even before Oliver got the DNA results from Barry. I mean if Felicity couldn't have known that Oliver just found out that he was a father after taking the DNA results from Barry, what a crock of BS is that? It's not like Oliver just happened to have Barry run a DNA test now after knowing for years that he was a father or that Oliver just happened to hand Barry the DNA proof after knowing the answer months previously. Oliver is a liar and Felicity knows that so the "dealbreaker" isn't Oliver lying to her but her principles not standing for his lying to her.
    Last edited by DoubleDevil; 12-05-2015 at 01:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDevil View Post
    No. This is the CW. It had to happen yesterday, even before Oliver got the DNA results from Barry. I mean if Felicity couldn't have known that Oliver just found out that he was a father after taking the DNA results from Barry, what a crock of BS is that? It's not like Oliver just happened to have Barry run a DNA test now after knowing for years that he was a father or that Oliver just happened to hand Barry the DNA proof after knowing the answer months previously. Oliver is a liar and Felicity knows that so the "dealbreaker" isn't Oliver lying to her but her principles not standing for his lying to her.
    Which frankly underlines the issue that their relationship will face no matter what. Felicity has a certain set of principles that she very unwillingly bent in order to help find Walter. Once Oliver decided he was going to try and honor Tommy by not being a killer anymore, she was fully behind this. But Oliver still operates in the world of the grey very much, and Felicity has repeatedly shown an inability to recognize this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDevil View Post
    No. This is the CW. It had to happen yesterday, even before Oliver got the DNA results from Barry. I mean if Felicity couldn't have known that Oliver just found out that he was a father after taking the DNA results from Barry, what a crock of BS is that? It's not like Oliver just happened to have Barry run a DNA test now after knowing for years that he was a father or that Oliver just happened to hand Barry the DNA proof after knowing the answer months previously. Oliver is a liar and Felicity knows that so the "dealbreaker" isn't Oliver lying to her but her principles not standing for his lying to her.
    So it is okay for Felicity to lie to Oliver over and over again so she can go behind his back and help Team Diggle, because that lie is considered noble but his lying for the sake of his son's sake is less worthy and a deal breaker? He erring on the side of his child and that shouldn't be a deal breaker.

    I liked what Shelby Kent wrote about why Oliver is doing this:

    ....Therefore, one could consider giving Oliver the benefit of the doubt and speculate that possibly what is going on here is that Oliver is trying to navigate his way through a very delicate and tricky situation wherein it is almost as if his son is a “hostage” and he needs more time to assess the situation and come up with a strategy that will allow him to do what he feels is best for his son (which may or may not include building a relationship with William, as per his comments to Barry)....

    His objectives in this scenario might be:
    1. build a relationship with William (and I assume make sure William knows he is his dad? – unless he’s not yet even sure he wants William to know that),
    2. try to build a cordial relationship with Samantha so as to ensure that they will be able to co-parent William in the best way possible, and
    3. find a way to bring Felicity into the loop ASAP without causing a major blow-up with Samantha which could possibly cause blowback onto his relationship with William.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteelyGal View Post
    So it is okay for Felicity to lie to Oliver over and over again so she can go behind his back and help Team Diggle, because that lie is considered noble but his lying for the sake of his son's sake is less worthy and a deal breaker? He erring on the side of his child and that shouldn't be a deal breaker.

    I liked what Shelby Kent wrote about why Oliver is doing this:
    That's not what I meant to say. Anybody that thinks Oliver continuing to lie to Felicity is what will cause their relationship to fall apart is wrong, Oliver's lying will only cause the relationship to fall apart if Felicity stands by her principles which are skewed anyhow because she doesn't hold herself to those principles.

    Now should Oliver be called out on his lying to Felicity? Yes. He's like an alchoholic relapsing and since Felicity knows he's a liar she shouldn't be surprised if he lapses back now and then, she needs to weigh how "big" the lies are that Oliver tells and has to consider what she's willing to allow for the sake of their relationship. On the other hand, if she's unwilling to let the smallest of lies be excused then she should not commit a single lie herself because then she's holding others to a much higher standard than she holds herself which is flat out hypocritical.

    Oliver's "lie" was an omission of facts until he had time to process the information he had just discovered and that I don't consider a lie, it's an omission of facts awaiting processing. Sure Oliver could've said "Hey, I think I might have a son that I knew absolutely nothing about until today and I need to find out if it's true." but quite frankly it's none of her business until Oliver decides what HE wants to do about it, then no matter what he decides he needs to inform Felicity. If he doesn't THEN he's lying to her.

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    As much as I would want to believe that Ollie would handle this rationally aka like an average, sensible person, there's a few things that prevent me from thinking he (or more accurately, this story arc) would actually be reasonable.

    First, this is the CW. In their eyes, rational and reasonable is boring viewing (not my view, but I'm skating on the edges of their target demographics). They want to shake that melodrama Jello and see where the mess flies. Second, this is Oliver Queen we're talking about -- the current Flarrowverse (Berlanti-verse?) Arrow version, not the comics-rooted one (if there was a version of this one, he died in the S1 finale). He and his lot (LOT?) form the "Juvenile" League of America (CW chapter), the direct network successors to Smallville. Interpret this how you will.

    He can give many entirely plausible reasons why he (as Ollie and as the Hood/Arrow/GA) needs to lie and/or keep secrets. Some reasons can be justified, others not so much and others are hard to swallow.

    The interpretation comes down to heart vs. mind with me. The heart says Ollie is a ultimately a good man who will do the right thing in the end, do the responsible thing for everyone involved and take his lumps and learn from them. And maybe, just maybe, salvage what he believes he has with Felicity while remaining true to what he wants to have with William -- while claiming a rightful place beside Green Lantern and Batman in some off-screen future we'll never get to see. And with this network all about generating the emotions in viewers, I could totally see them go this route -- whether it makes sense plot/story/theme-wise or not. He may not be the GA we'd want, but he would be the GA the CW audience deserves.

    But the mind? The mind says that this is a man who has not operated under typically "normal" moral codes for closing in on nine years now (exile + vigilante era), where lying, concealing the truth and guarding secrets is justified and even right according to objectives or circumstances. And while it may be reasonable to say that he had returned to a more "normal" status -- his S3 vacation a necessity on this front -- it's also a side that has not evaporated from him. Lying was a survival tactic for so long with him -- if he didn't lie during such times, it would mean his death esp. during his exile era.

    Old habits die, his whole team recognizes that he does lie, can lie and probably will continue to lie and not always for noble or greater good reasons. It's a wonder that the team still trusts him and I'm willing to retcon that the team is more leadership-by-committee now b/c of on-going trust issues with him, regardless of his shaky hope that his sabbatical "healed" him. (Roy did more by taking a reputation-cleansing shiv for him, but I digress.) It's not like we are dealing with a man who is naturally earnest, not known to keep secrets and tell lies. Quite the opposite in fact. I think we can relate Ollie's realization that he's not as mature as Barry in part to his fibbing ways. He knows this, which is what frustrates Arrow fans who want the hero to be more of a straight arrow (I couldn't resist). Ollie is more of a trick arrow, we're not always sure where he'll land or even what his target is at times. And the fact that he has needed lying to some degree to survive, and is part of his "skill-set", still doesn't excuse doing it in this particular circumstance.

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDevil View Post
    No. This is the CW. It had to happen yesterday, even before Oliver got the DNA results from Barry ..... Oliver is a liar and Felicity knows that so the "dealbreaker" isn't Oliver lying to her but her principles not standing for his lying to her.
    I agree, but the give-and-take must come from both sides not just from Felicity's end. The issue is trust -- trust that Ollie should have in someone he considers his girlfriend, never mind if she's the "one", a soulmate, future bride etc. This is what the lying represents. For whatever reason, he feels he can't confide in Felicity. The subject of the lie and even the fact of a lie isn't the point of contention -- it's that the lie means he does not trust her to know, or keep safe, whatever truth he feels is too much for her to handle. He's also afraid knowledge of the truth may torpedo his relationship with Felicity, so it also speaks to his own insecurity about their status and the expected selfish fear of facing the music.

    This is not to say that Ollie can't have time to deal with the impact of this truth on his life (as Ollie and as GA), his team, on Felicity and on his mission in the existential sense. He does. And it would be totally reasonable for him to ask Felicity to bear with him for a day, couple of days etc. to digest the fact that he now has a son -- and for her to go along with it, knowing that he'd tell her at the end of it. This is what he needed to do, ideally when he had even an inkling that William may be his son or at least the moment he was certain he was.

    He did not do this in either timeline and only alluded (too late) that he may want to do this in timeline 1. Good intentions, as they say. Clouded by the fact that he offered this only after the lie was exposed. His not doing the "reasonable" thing is largely responsible for the predicament he now finds himself -- living under a roof with a woman he may/may not be sure he can confide in/trust/perceive as his life partner ... and allowing her to believe that she is all those things to him.

    Timeline 1 Felicity did some things that irked me, you know, before the whole world as timeline 1's Arrow and Flash crews knew it went to hell. Barry's paternity test pocket magic trick fail was 360 degrees of absurdity (Ollie lied to him too about what the test was for, don't forget). But all this was erased.

    Timeline 2 Felicity is getting burned -- because she doesn't even know trust is an issue between them. On this, I can't absolve Ollie for doing it here.

    This doesn't mean Felicity is in the clear entirely. She knows he's a liar by habit/necessity, went into this relationship knowing this. It doesn't mean Ollie gets a pass on behaving like this. The problem here is that Felicity doesn't even know there is a problem on-deck between them. If she had an inkling (I suspect she should soon), then it would be more sensible for her to give Ollie space to come clean. At this point, she doesn't even know there is an issue. Until she does, I don't think I can completely slam her on not behaving sensibly to circumstances that she doesn't even know about.

    It should be a relief to confide this to someone, not a burden (which it's clear he feels this may be the case). He needs to process why he feels this way, ideally with Felicity in the loop soon, and what it means for him and Felicity. He may have stark choices but he may be left with few options if he allows this to fester.

    Does he feel that he can't trust Felicity -- or is it motivated by a nagging sense that she isn't "The One" or (more likely) he's not ready/mature enough to make her, or anyone, The One at this point in his life. Either way, he'd owe it to her to say so, even if it means they split up for good.

    How he handles it and the inevitable fallout will determine if it turns out to be a case of really bad judgment that he (and Felicity) can get past and move forward, or if he proves his immaturity and this time suffers the karmic consequences that can't be mended by time travel, pits, magic, or even that amazing herbal tea and penicillin concoction.

    [Let me just reveal that tea-or-not? secret wide open now. Impromptu comedy break.]

    (deleted Season 3 scene)
    "Ollie: That tea had some Lazarus Pit water, right ... right? C'mon, Katana, there's no way herbal tea alone healed me. You spiked it with Lazarus Pit water. Fess up.

    Katana (smiles coyly): ..... Okay, okay, you're right! Lazarus Pit water's everywhere! It's in the field berries, those quail-kebobs you had, and even in the taquitos from Nanda Parbat's 7-Eleven ... you know, the one beside the live chickens store and the Starbucks.

    Ollie: Oh yeah, I know that place. Good work. Still, you could have Lazarus-spiked a Slurpee instead of tea. Those herbs were yucky.

    Katana: Yucky? Lazarus Slurpees? What are you, like, 12?

    Barry (time travel races by): If she only knew how right she was, maturity-wise. This won't bode well for William -- or for Bruce's plans to make Oliver captain of the multiverse baseball team. It's back to the STARLabs "Lock-up Crewz" Bowling Squad reserve list with you, Ollie. Hope you like neon tangerine team shirts. "
    Last edited by President_Luthor; 12-05-2015 at 05:10 PM. Reason: more

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