View Poll Results: Rate This Episode

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  • 10 - Legendary

    5 19.23%
  • 9

    3 11.54%
  • 8

    3 11.54%
  • 7

    2 7.69%
  • 6

    6 23.08%
  • 5

    5 19.23%
  • 4

    1 3.85%
  • 3

    1 3.85%
  • 2

    0 0%
  • 1 - Glad Yesterday is Over Cause Tomorrow Will Be Much Better.

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  1. #31
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post

    (It also sucks that timeline 2 Barry will be a liar-by-proxy, whatever happens now that this Ollie has chosen not to tell Felicity, if you agree that concealing a truth from someone who likely should know it is the same as lying.)
    In my humble opinion, that's better than what Barry did in the original timeline. I've knocked Felicity a lot for her stance in this episode: the badgering, the interrogating, the prying behind Oliver's back (she's the one to talk about trust!), etc. Unfortunately though, Barry didn't shower himself in any glory either. Besides your point about stashing the paper away with ease, he shouldn't have told her anything. Barry is by no means a hardass, but he knows how to stand up for himself and not interfere in other people's affairs. He could have very easily told her to back off and go ask Oliver what's up. What, Barry can't say no to Felicity now? What bull.

    See, that's the problem with the crossovers. You get have writers writing for characters they have no clue about. Just like the Helbings got Damian Darhk wrong on Tuesday, Marc Guggenheim and Brian Ford Sullivan got Barry horribly wrong in this instance.

  2. #32
    Forum Whiz Amarice's Avatar
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    As a pure enjoyment - watchable. Since "Arrow" was brought to the point that what is happening around is so absurd that even the characters are well aware of that - I can't say that I didn't laugh at some one-liners. Yes, it was quite crowded with the characters who didn't have too much to do, it had Olicity scenes (mainly in Flash-part, but here also) which reached some new level of being annoying (running out of the scale here when I thought this paring can't be written any worse), but still it was exactly what I expected to be. And I just love the relationship of Barry and Oliver, their friendship, them staying up for one another, fighting side by side. It's one of the best things in Flarrow universe. I agree that they were some issues when it comes to characters' portrayal (the subplot with the son and Barry's involvement in this, and how it was played out), but I just like too much seeing the Flash and Green Arrow together to focus too much on that part.

    Since some of us agreed in the topic about the previous episode that what we are watching know is not "Arrow" any more but a crossover of "Legends of Tomorrow" set up and "Oliver Queen - a Desperate Househusband" I guess that the storyline with the son just had to appear sooner or later. Yes, it's a soap opera all over again, but honestly I liked Stephen Amell's acting in those scenes. I still prefer the-vigilante-fixated-on-saving-my-city-right-my-father's-wrongs, but well, it belongs to the show "Arrow", which has ended after two seasons. And as much as I'm not into Olicity - it's obvious that Oliver makes here a serious mistake while he decides to not tell Felicity the truth. It's annoying that they conveniently erased them addressing the matters of trust. Yay, finally, after almost 1,5 season of creating a pairing filled with teenage drama and written with almost zero credibility they made Felicity realize that Oliver is clearly not that ideal man a picture of whom she had build up in her head. And then Barry's time travel.

    Wow, Ollie did actually shot an arrow in this one and it hit his target (speaking of the scene when the meet with Savage) - now it's becoming an event, scene in Flash-part he had his ass kicked at least three times in row (yes, I counted that). As for the Flash-part - I liked Ollie switching in detective mode. It was cool to see a glimpse of his old self.

    I liked Robin of Loxley reference (and what has happened with Robert, Earl of Huntingdon, huh? Did Savage train him too? ) and Cisco's scenes. Have some issues when it comes to Hawkman's and Hawkgirl's acting (a bit stiff, to be honest) but I guess over time they will settle in better (?). Liked also portrayal of Savage (especially his introduction in Flash-part of the crossover, I just conveniently skip the part about his unrequited love (?) towards Chay-Ara or something, because just NO).

    Guess Barry's time travel caused what Merlyn did in the end of the episode? Unfortunately it seems to make Thea a more probable candidate for the grave (?). Unless it's another red herring.

    A bit chaotic post, but those just a few points I wanted to write about.

  3. #33
    Forum Whiz Carmine-Infantino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protege View Post
    So tonight's the first time I've seen Laurel use her canary cry, and i gotta say, i was underwhelmed. No special effects that I could see, she just opened her mouth. I'm not even sure why she was in this episode at all.
    Yeah, I find it ironic that Laurel's "super power" is yelling at people.

  4. #34
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    I think the moment Ollie faced his son, they had to address the issue head-on -- no matter what Team Arrow, Team Flash, the Hawk-people or Savage did. The crossovers were busy, but I'd have to say the Arrow one felt less bloated. Yes, the Ollie secret subplot is soapy (I'd prefer if they kept this stuff on daytime TV) but knowing that issue was going to show up, I didn't have an issue with how the Ollie and Samantha scenes were executed. I do have an issue with Ollie resorting to secrets and lies and the whole idea that, given the second chance to avoid what Barry indicated had happened in timeline 1, he chose to conceal the truth. It cannot end well, the longer Ollie says mum about it.

    Something had to be done dramatically, creatively with Olicity: shake it up, tested in a crucible of fire etc. Outside of the diehard shippers who were content with what I'd call "blissful" Olicity aka the annoyingly cute phase where everything is peachy between them and PDA's are aplenty, something needed to be done to keep it from being stale.

    We may have legitimate gripes with some of the seemingly impromptu plotting and writing on Arrow, but from what I've been reading, they have been planning out how the Ollie - Samantha and son situation would unfold since S2 when Moira engineered her exile. They've known for awhile that it wasn't going to be Connor and while DC easter egg hunters may be disappointed, I am fine with William and Samantha not being bound by canon expectations/baggage. I'm not as sure about if they knew how entangled Olicity would be in all this -- maybe they saw a chance to shake things up. It'll be the melodrama around Ollie telling lies and Felicity uncovering secrets that'll irk me more than the secret son subplot itself.

    My biggest beefs were those elements that were introduced into Arrow -- the time travel stuff and the LOT clutter. I was surprised they committed to giving Ollie's secret son subplot the attention it deserved with all the crossover chaos around it, if it is indeed a "game-changer". Sticking it in the middle of a crossover would suggest that it is going to be.

    Even though it was a crossover, it was more of an Arrow episode than the Flash crossover was a Flash one. My issues still remain with the crossover bloated frenzy, the strikes against it having more to do with external elements wedged into it, but the Arrow one benefited from a) sticking to showing what could be a pivotal subplot for Ollie and b) being lucky in hosting Part 2 of the crossover. Flash's part 1 got stuck with all the set up and exposition, which made it truly seem too busy. And the Flash-specific subplot with Jay wasn't that good either, it was ho-hum.

    Separate the Olicity melodrama, the LOT sound and fury and the time traveling chaos from it -- and we witnessed what could be a pivotal Arrow subplot in the signpost/test of character-on-Ollie's-journey sense. Will Ollie choose personal happiness over parental responsibility -- and will those lines blur the longer he spents time with William? Will the presence of his son impact Ollie's commitment to the mission and he risks he takes? How will the team weigh Ollie's commitment to the cause vs. commitment to his son, should they find out about it? There are a lot of questions and dilemmas with this that have little to nothing to do with "how it affects Felicity". They would be wise to keep this in mind, don't make it all about Olicity.

    I could also see how this subplot breathes new life into Diggle's chances of escaping the grave. Who better than someone who is already a father to guide him going forward?

    Part 2 was better than Part 1. Not perfect, but it was more watchable to me.

    (If you didn't like the crossovers, that lands on the CW melodrama, LOT and the network powers' desire to push LOT during the crossovers.)
    Last edited by President_Luthor; 12-04-2015 at 08:30 AM.

  5. #35
    Forum Whiz Carmine-Infantino's Avatar
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    Sadly, Arrow received it's best ratings in a year with the crossover. This means we can expect more of the same next year.

  6. #36
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    The Hawkgirl/Hawkman/Savage set-up was silly enough that instead of focusing on Legends of Tomorrow, the chief topic of conversation is the Oliver/Felicity fight.

    There were too many people in the episode. Although Caitlin did help with the oven mitts and Diggle, Thea and Laurel with the fighting, they weren't really necessary to the plot.

    I still don't care about the Hawks although Savage makes a good mustache-twirling villain.

    I used to like Cisco but he's become the show's Mary Sue. He makes all the toys, he corrects Felicity on the wiring of the new lair, he gets to name all the heros and villains. He's a metahuman who can see into the future. He's got both Golden Glider and Hawkgirl romantically interested in him. And when Kendra can't remember, Hawkman who has been her lover for 4000 years and who helped her through the previous 205 reincarnations, can't help her. She needs Cisco. It's just too much.


    Quote Originally Posted by gmster View Post
    The Felicity melodrama dragged this down. It even caused everyone's death in another timeline.
    After three seasons of repeatedly learning that when he fails to trust his Team, everything goes bad, Oliver ONCE AGAIN decides to hide the truth from Felicity and lie to her, admitting he wasn't going to tell her about the kid. Then he got upset when she called him on it and walked away and he made some more stupid decisions that got everyone killed.

    But it's all Felicity's fault. Just like it's the woman's responsibility to keep a man from assaulting her.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    I can't exactly blame her for wanting to protect her son from the world Ollie inhabits. She didn't cash Moira's check, so she doesn't "owe" the Queen family anything. Everyone including Felicity is a third-party in whatever arrangement the mom has with the father. And while her own choice to still keep Ollie in the dark about his son wasn't the best move -- he has a right to want some involvement in his life -- I can't fault her motivation. It's her son's interests she's thinking of, Ollie's had no part in her son's life so far and she just wants a stable life for him.
    Moira gave her two cheques of $1 million each -- one for moving to Central City and the other for telling Oliver she'd miscarried. She only showed Oliver one cheque; I presume she cashed the other to buy the house and support her and the kid.

    But setting the money aside, she owes Oliver and even more she owes her son. She owes Oliver because it's his son and she owes her son the father who wants to get to know and love him. Basically what she did was extortion: I'll let you spend time with your own son as "Mommy's friend" if you never tell anyone about your relationship to him. I understand why Oliver gave in but if he had talked to Diggle, or Thea (William's) or Laurel (a lawyer!) they would have told him that the legal ground was all him and not to give in.

    The mom isn't the as she was 10 years ago (student pregnant from a one night stand) so there is no reason to assume that Oliver is too. Moreover, she knows that Oliver isn't the same person he was ten years ago. He was presumed dead, came back, didn't party of get into the papers, ran his family's company and is running for mayor right now. He's in a stable relationship with his CEO partner. Even if she wants to keep William away from the paparazzi, there's no reason at all that Oliver shouldn't tell his family (Thea and Felicity) that he has a son.

    William is at the age where he needs a steady male presence in his life. Surely Oliver would be better than Mom's current boyfriend who may well be gone by this time next year.

    What Samantha demanded made no sense at all "You've taken everything from me" -- really? He took absolutely nothing and only asked to tell his SO that he has a child. And quite honestly, as far as Samantha knows, there is no downside to having Oliver be in her child's life. The terms she set were for her benefit, not William's.

    The really disappointing part of the arc though is Oliver's behaviour. Through the first episodes of this season, he's been showing a lot of maturity and understanding of other people But the end of this episode, he cuddled into Felicity, deriving support from her while lying to her about what was wrong. It's a perfect match to the flashback ten years ago when he cuddled into Laurel, deriving support from her while lying about the pregnancy.

    Ten years, five of them going through hell and another three close to it, and Oliver has matured not an iota. This is no "hero's journey".
    Last edited by katakombs; 12-04-2015 at 09:50 AM. Reason: clean up wording

  8. #38
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    This is a case of Moira's scheming and planning for contingencies biting Ollie's destiny/journey in the rear.

    And it's not a case of blame or fault landing with either Samantha or Ollie. I don't see it as either/or. It's a case where they're both in the right ... and in the wrong. It's William's interests that should be paramount and it remains to be seen if Ollie's vigilante life can be reconciled with what his son needs, never mind the safety issues of being a blood relation to Oliver Queen and being an automatic target if this detail leaked out.

    No one gets a pass on the secrets and lies involved, Samantha included -- but who ultimately got this whole ball rolling? It was Moira, two seasons ago.

    This is why I don't like how this will cast Samantha as the main "bad" person in this scenario, because TPTB want the melodrama attached to it to cause friction and threaten Olicity's status quo.

    There's plenty of fault for everyone here, I just don't think Ollie being the protagonist means he deserves less of it by default. Yes, her conditions are unreasonable -- but so was Moira engineering the exile in the first place, Ollie blindly letting Barry hold the bag re: secret son ... and timeline 1 Felicity pressuring Barry to break a friend's confidence and reveal a truth that wasn't Barry's place to reveal.

    It is a complicated issue and no one's saying Ollie doesn't have a right to know his son (he does, this is not in dispute). It's the context around all of this, primarily the secrets and lies involved and making it an Olicity wedge issue for the sake of melodrama that is distasteful.

    At least Ollie gave us the heads-up that he wasn't as mature as Barry (we knew it, so it was a relief that he knows it too!), so it was almost expected that he would do the stupid thing and not tell Felicity.

    The secrets 'n lies melodrama itself is not a test for Ollie, it's whether or not at the end of this tunnel he gets the sense to do the right thing in time and -- this is key here -- handles the fallout of it wisely and responsibly (yeah, a tall order). If he has the guts to tell Felicity everything, even if she sees it as a lack of trust-dealbreaker issue and means the end of their relationship, he would demonstrate that he is willing to face consequences he doesn't like in a way that he hasn't so far.

    This could play out in any number of ways, and I understand that his choosing to do the same freaking thing in timeline 2 as he did in timeline 1 is frustrating as hell. He knew better thanks to Barry, and he still chose to conceal the truth. That's a SV Clark-level of stupid. I can only hope that whatever end game they have with this secret son story arc is achieved credibly. Olicity fans may be wringing their hands at how this spins out for their couple, but I say bring on whatever fallout this causes the show's 'first couple'. Anything is better than what we've been served since TPTB chose to embrace this ship with little reservation.

    If S1-2 was Ollie's journey, from late S2-present it's been more Olicity's journey. It's long past time this status is changed, for the series' sake, and if Ollie coping with having a son and succeeding or failing with handling the ramifications forces a status change and gets Arrow (the show and the character) back on track, I am more than willing to lay out the welcome mat for this story arc. The Olicity melodrama blowback will be unpalatable, but if this process gets Ollie from B to C it may be a necessary evil to endure.

    It's entirely possible Olicity may come out of it stronger, tested against a formidable crisis rooted in trust. If they manage to get past this trust crisis (never mind uphill challenge, it's practically vertical), then Ollie may as well take a page from Beyonce and put a ring on it (or at least formalize the common-law thing) -- 'cause they'd have survived something that would understandably break other couples with trust issues. The odds are much lower -- but even this would be an improvement over what it is currently.

    (Now, if Ollie could only call block CW's melodrama legacy permanently and maybe demonstrate that he learned something in all the time he was in exile and fighting his private vigilante war for three seasons ...)

  9. #39
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    He knew better thanks to Barry, and he still chose to conceal the truth. That's a SV Clark-level of stupid.
    Not really. When Clark was faced with a similar situation both times he did the opposite of what he did before. Oliver did the same thing.

    God bless you! God bless everyone!

  10. #40
    New In Town KVSpacey's Avatar
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    One thing. Did anybody else think of a showdown between Robert and Oliver as green arrows of earth 1 and 2? I don't remember what triggered that thought, but it was something in this episode..

  11. #41
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    I was speaking in general rather than literal terms re: secrets and lies. Even the most ardent SV fans would admit that the series exploited the secrets and lies device many times. Clark's character was no exception. Most SV viewers would acknowledge this as being the unfortunately reality.

    I'm not about to engage in old debates about SV on an Arrow board. I've done my time on that front, in the SV forums when the show was still airing. Once was enough, thanks. It is series I still liked -- but not loved. Long-lasting, sure, but this isn't reflective of its quality.

    In many ways Arrow and Flash have inherited some of the more irksome melodrama tools from WB/CW and its long-running series SV. With Arrow being the first show out of the gate of this ilk since SV, it's unfortunate some of the things I didn't like about SV were incorporated into Arrow's DNA, creatively speaking, when it would have been better if they didn't have them -- the shipping catering, melodrama, etc.

  12. #42
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    The idea was Moira's, true, but she did it because Oliver told her his life was "ruined" because this girl is pregnant. She had really terrible parenting skills. So does Samantha, apparently.

    William's needs should be paramount but Samantha is making this about herself. She doesn't know that Oliver lives a dangerous life as the Green Arrow, all she knows is that he came back from the island, cleaned up, kept himself out of the papers, was CEO of his family's company and is now running for mayor. There is nothing in that that's a reason to keep William away from his father, especially since his father wants to be a part of William's life. William will be the one to suffer most when he hears that this nice guy is really his father but his mother refused to let him know.

    Which truth was it not Barry's place to reveal? The first timeline, when he thought he was running a DNA test on Damian Darhk who Felicity is also involved in fighting? In that case, all of Team Arrow and Team Flash should have known, including Diggle who has his own reasons for hating HIVE so why would Oliver tell him to keep it a secret? Or the second time when he told Oliver that he has a son (which Oliver suspected) but that Felicity breaks up with him over it? The second part wasn't true, she didn't break up over the fact that he has a son but because he lied to her about it.

    So you could say that Barry was also partly responsible for creating this situation since he told Oliver something happened in a different timeline but it wasn't true.

    If Barry had told Oliver the real truth, that Felicity got mad at him for keeping secrets and lying to her AGAIN, the mess that is coming could all have been avoided.

    Oliver lying to Barry and then asking him to keep secret what the whole team should have been told set it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    If S1-2 was Ollie's journey, from late S2-present it's been more Olicity's journey. It's long past time this status is changed, for the series' sake, and if Ollie coping with having a son and succeeding or failing with handling the ramifications forces a status change and gets Arrow (the show and the character) back on track, I am more than willing to lay out the welcome mat for this story arc. The Olicity melodrama blowback will be unpalatable, but if this process gets Ollie from B to C it may be a necessary evil to endure.
    The melodrama, as it was in season 2 with Slade and season 3 with Ra's al Ghul, is because Oliver is still keeping secrets from his partners, Diggle and Felicity. And Thea, who fell under Malcolm's spell because Oliver kept the secret of her paternity. This problem is not Olicity-related but the result of Oliver's on-going stupid decisions that he has to do it all alone. Each season he learns he needs his Team if he's going to be victorious, and each following season he promptly forgets.

    As I understand it from interviews the producers have given over the seasons of the show, the plan was always to have Oliver grow as a character in conjunction with The Woman Who Loves Him, even more so than His Mentor (Diggle). If Oliver/Laurel had been better received, it would have been Laurel in Felicity's place right now. This seems to have been a plot devised in season 1 with her in mind since she was the one Oliver cheated on to produce this child and the drama would had more impact with her since it would have reflected back on to their pre-island relationship and made the trust issue greater.
    Last edited by katakombs; 12-04-2015 at 02:26 PM.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haggard01 View Post
    Well said President_Luthor.

    Maybe they really are going for it being non salvageable and going to actually end Olicty. Because in Smallville terms I see Oliver/Felicity as Clark/Lana and Oliver/Laurel as Clark/Lois. Which ok fine Oliver/Laurel is toxic due to their past but let's face it Olicty is far more toxic due to a lot of things.
    Olicity is more toxic than banging half the city, getting a girl pregnant, running away with Laurel's sister and banging her, banging for what will be 2 seperate women on he island. Coming back and banging laurel's sister again, rubbing it in her face, telling her to go drink, not being able to be in the same room together. Going on life ending missions and not telling laurel anything, and only recently be able to stand each other, and mind you have not said a word to each other since. Sounds really really fake, but okay.

    Olicity is the healthiest relationship Oliver has ever had, compared to Oliver and Laurel is a model relationship.

    This is stalling Oliver and Felicity, that is all its doing. Ill repeat and you guys can post mark this and return to it later by the end of the season. These writers are not subtle at all. The bookend to this season is Oliver proposing a second time, the right way

  14. #44
    Forum Whiz Carmine-Infantino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superles View Post
    Olicity is more toxic than banging half the city, getting a girl pregnant, running away with Laurel's sister and banging her, banging for what will be 2 seperate women on he island. Coming back and banging laurel's sister again, rubbing it in her face, telling her to go drink, not being able to be in the same room together. Going on life ending missions and not telling laurel anything, and only recently be able to stand each other, and mind you have not said a word to each other since. Sounds really really fake, but okay.

    Olicity is the healthiest relationship Oliver has ever had, compared to Oliver and Laurel is a model relationship.

    This is stalling Oliver and Felicity, that is all its doing. Ill repeat and you guys can post mark this and return to it later by the end of the season. These writers are not subtle at all. The bookend to this season is Oliver proposing a second time, the right way
    You may be right, I remember reading an interview with M.G. where he said they like to start a season out, blow everything up and then circle back to where they started by the end of the season.

  15. #45
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    Too bad Felicity didn't take a page out of Oliver's book. When she lied to him repeatedly so she could help out Team Diggle, he forgave her pretty quickly. Oliver's world had just been turned upside down and he was trying to cope with it. Instead of giving him support when he obliviously could have used it, she let him have it by saying that if he loved her and trusted her, he would have told her. It is obvious he is in love with her so her comment was only intended to hurt him.

    I'm not giving Oliver a pass for lying and Felicity had every right to be angry. But, I think she should have expressed it differently. If their relationship is on rock solid ground, this lie should only rock the boat but not sink it.

    I don't like the idea his argument with Felicity caused him to fail the mission and get everyone killed. Every great leader is able to compartmentalized things. They don't let problems in one area of their life negatively impact others. Until Oliver can do this, he will not be a great leader.

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