Loved It? Hated It? What did you think of "Lost Souls?"

[BkWurm1]

Crosspost from another forum. I Thought this was the best the writers have written Felicity and Olicity

Last night the premise of the show was simple yet brilliant with regards to Felicity and her relationship with Oliver.

What Felicity did at the end of last season was something rash, impulsive and completely human. Felicity huge break through to why she does what she does came after Oliver's death. Post episode "Left Behind" (310) Felicity figured out that she fights crime for others, so others can have the opportunity to live a full life and live in peace. With and without Oliver that is what she does, she would rather do this mission with him, but it's as much hers and it is anyone elses.

Then Oliver is back, they go through thier ups and downs, and Finally Oliver says he is ready to have a life with her, AWAY from all the crime fighting. The man she loves or doing what she views as integral to her being. She picked, Oliver, picked love.

There arises the issue for tonight. Felicity can't just pick Oliver, she wants both Oliver and her mission. SHe wants the same thing she was asking Oliver to have all last season. Be with her and continue his mission. She never wanted him to pick or pick herself.

Oliver wanting to leave the mission led her to quitting, and she couldn't, she was helping the team while away from the mission. This is what scares her about the love she has for Oliver, it scares her that she is able to sacrifice so much without much thought because she loves him that much. She is scared she loves him too much. Felicity was playing the role of the Hero who has to make the decision of how much to give or hold back from the person she loves and how that effects her mission.

The conversation between, Oliver and Felicity is a thing of beauty. 1st she blames herself for Ray. Oliver quickly figures out that, her blaming herself for Ray makes no sense. Then her real guilt comes out, she feels guilty for leaving her mission something that is such a vital part of her. And the reason being is that loving Oliver is so easy and she loves him so much she is willing to sacrifice parts of herself and still be happy, but still feel something is missing.

This the hero's girlfriend telling the hero, I have a mission and me loving you so much distracts me from said mission. They flipped the roles, and did it in the most subtle of ways.

Oliver's reaction to all this, is obviously human and goes straight to, I'm I not enough for her, what's missing? This is one of the few times where Oliver is actually ahead of Felicity in growth (Those 5 months away did his brain some good). For him he already lost himself in Felicity, him losing himself in her is the reason he realizes he wants this mission as bad as ever, he wants this mission so bad, he made a new mission in running for mayor. He is completely okay with losing himself in her, because when he does, he finds a common want and need, he sees a better him. He is questioning why she doesn't see the same thing. Maybe she will better off with Ray, he also has a mission, they have more in common. Then Diggle, made it clear to him, she picked him, just give her sometime, she will catch up. Felicity is the one catching up for once.

Then Felicity and her mom have an important conversation. Her mom tells her it's okay to lose herself in Oliver. She didn't say its okay to lose yourself in anyone. SHe specifically said Oliver. She gives her own example of how losing yourself in the wrong person can be an issue and lead to heartache and disappointment. SHe tells Felicity that Felicity is not her, and Oliver is not Felicity's father. Oliver has already lost himself and is completely in love with Felicity. Oliver staying to be GA had as much to do with him wanting to as it did with Felicity wanting them to stay. So when Felicity looks at Oliver no matter how in love she is with him, she will always find herself.

You can't lose yourself in a bad way with someone that puts your needs and well being above thiers. That was the message Felicity learned tonight, the message Oliver learned when he decided to come back and told Felicity it wont be easy but its worth it.
So fall in love, fall deeper, don't hold back, take the guards down. You wont lose your mission or self purpose by doing so, because the person you love values that more than they value themself.

Read and loved your meta. Fantastic overview of the emotions and motives.


Lost Souls sent up a wonderful role reversal between then, giving great insight into both their heads but the insight into Felicity's perspective was particularly needed after all she gave up to follow Oliver. Their fight felt very realistic, where what is being fought about on the surface is only the catalyst for finally acknowledging the underlying fears and worries that have bubbling below. It wasn't alway comfortable to watch but you could see how much they both were hurting as they got to the core of the matter.

The resolution was beautiful, realizing that yes love was all encompassing but it did not make either of them less than who they were before, but more. "We found ourselves in each other". Maybe the most romantic and strong statement about love ever.

Oh and how beautifully mature did Oliver handle it all? Not getting deffensive or lashing out blindly himself. Yes, his timing was a mess springing her mother on her but his intentions were good and in the end, provided reassurance from the one person that would know where Felicity's freak out was coming from.

The episode, plot wise, was just there to accomplish LoT duties, send Sara off, find Ray, so from that standpoint it was filler but the characterization was masterful.

There were a lot of character beats I would have loved for them to address with Sara and the rest of the cast, but just from a practical standpoint, they couldn't. Filming for LoT actually started like two or three days into filming Lost Souls. They only had Caity Lotz for a very short period of time during this episode. I guess I'm not shocked they choose action sequences rather than pluming the depths of her character which I guess now belongs to LoT to accomplish.

What Lost Souls could have showcased should IMO not get in the way of what it did.

[President_Luthor]

Extracting myself from the LOT issue for the moment, that initial scene with Ollie and Felicity arriving at the realization that their relationship -- and going off to lose themselves in each other, as it were -- came with sacrifices was a credible scene for me. (Again, for the moment, I'm setting aside the blowback of the departure on SC and the team, it would be an entire thread on its own.).

We all know Ollie's sacrifices both with his conscience and for the city, but it was fair for Felicity to raise that she did set aside those non-Arrow sides of her life to join him. Would be nice if we actually saw more of her life on-screen outside of Team Arrow and Palmer Tech, but I think it was a point that Ollie and probably the audience needed to hear. Maybe she wasn't stuck on an island or faced death at the hands of Ra's, but it would be naive to think that Felicity would not also know that being with Ollie, going with Ollie to mend his soul etc. did cost her too, in both the concrete and personal sense. At the end of the day, people come back from vacation and have to deal with the stuff they went on vacation to get away from.

And for maybe 10-15 seconds I actually had the impression that they might shake-up Olicity in a bold way, where I was thinking: "Are they actually going to turn Olicity on its head and take it in a brave new direction?" They didn't, it was more of a mild course adjustment, but the mere fact that they skirted around the edges was -if not bold- then certainly it demonstrates that they want this ship to evolve beyond the usual run of the mill stuff we've seen since S3. Dare we imagine a more mature phase in Olicity going forward? We should add that this was one of the actual Arrow subplots in the episode and, with a dire lack of them, this must count for something too.

This doesn't change my general opinion on shipping, all the catering, knee-jerk fan service, how it can be used as a cheap shortcut to generate tension, and the unnecessary melodrama these things spawn, I've disliked that crap since SV -- but when there are scenes that Ollie and Felicity aren't reacting like an estranged Grade 10 couple on a "break" and even give the impression that maybe just maybe they're adults in a relationship, and not CW-mandated tropes, I'm more than willing to acknowledge it.

They didn't totally bug me in this episode. Which means they are attempting to do something right or better with it, or at least realize that they now need to put effort into doing this. I'm hoping they spend S4 and beyond proving that this is the case.

(Still, a little more non-shipper related Felicity character development would be nice. That's been on my Arrow wish list for Santa since mid-S2. I'm still holding out for the show fleshing out that third dimension part of her persona. *crickets chirping* It could happen, you never know. Hope springs eternal as they say.)

Again, it must be said, just when I was about to let Diggle's new vigilante look slide: Diggle was a gazillion times cooler in Ghost gear than he ever was as "Spartan"/Mini-Magneto/Pasta Bucket Head. One throwaway line from Lyla telling him he looks ridiculous could give all the motivation to change his look. Ask for a new costume, Diggle. Demand it.

I think what Arrow and Sara fans were looking for was some honest-to-goodness Arrow-specific closure with Sara's brief arrival and reunion with the team and her family, however you interpret it. What we got instead was tantamount to Sara riding on a bus, spotting her former teammates on the sidewalk, and waving at them through the window, as the bus makes its express run to LOT station aka getting her from A to B.

Maybe we'll get something more about this on her new show, maybe not.

[BkWurm1]

Again, it must be said, just when I was about to let Diggle's new vigilante look slide: Diggle was a gazillion times cooler in Ghost gear than he ever was as "Spartan"/Mini-Magneto/Pasta Bucket Head. One throwaway line from Lyla telling him he looks ridiculous could give all the motivation to change his look. Ask for a new costume, Diggle. Demand it.

I'd sign that petition.

I think what Arrow and Sara fans were looking for was some honest-to-goodness Arrow-specific closure with Sara's brief arrival and reunion with the team and her family, however you interpret it. What we got instead was tantamount to Sara riding on a bus, spotting her former teammates on the sidewalk, and waving at them through the window, as the bus makes its express run to LOT station aka getting her from A to B.

As a Sara fan myself, I get it, I really do and if we don't get some of these things addressed in LoT I will be upset. I worry that we never will but all I can do about it is hope. I do feel confident that at some time they'll crossover her family (or she'll return for a visit) but does she even know that Diggle named his daughter after her? Does she know that Malcolm drugged Thea? Does she know he's Ra's now? Does she know or care that Nyssa is locked up in NP? How did she react? I have questions that I want answered.

And for maybe 10-15 seconds I actually had the impression that they might shake-up Olicity in a bold way, where I was thinking: "Are they actually going to turn Olicity on its head and take it in a brave new direction?" They didn't, it was more of a mild course adjustment, but the mere fact that they skirted around the edges was -if not bold- then certainly it demonstrates that they want this ship to evolve beyond the usual run of the mill stuff we've seen since S3. Dare we imagine a more mature phase in Olicity going forward? We should add that this was one of the actual Arrow subplots in the episode and, with a dire lack of them, this must count for something too.

Just curious, what does a more mature phase look like to you? I'm asking because I would have said that is what we've been seeing all this season. A lot of quiet support and them being a couple just there in the background.

The continued sniping from Felicity in this episode was an aberration rather than the norm for either her personality or their relationship, a perfect storm of guilt, fear, pressure, MOM and exhaustion. But even so, they got to the heart of the matter, Oliver very wisely gave her the space to figure out her problem and then they moved forward without getting hung up on assigning blame.

What sort of other interactions would you hope to see from them that would help set them apart from the manufactured drama of last season?

[JDBentz]

Technically, Bkwurm1, some might think the sniping is a norm for her personality after Season 3. Just saying. But yes, in general, Felicity has not been like that. Which is honestly what makes this so much worse, since aside from one other episode this season, the way they've handled Felicity and Oliver is actually more along the lines of the first two seasons.

A friend of mine recently pointed out that Oliver could have said something along the lines of, "That's rich, since you were helping the team for months behind my back!" But he didn't. So I do agree, in this case, that Oliver and Felicity's actions can be considered 'more mature'. However, I do feel that this whole fight should have been done in an earlier, filler episode. This episode, in my opinion, should have focused on Sara reconnecting, maybe talking to Laurel, and the search for Ray. And while some might feel it did focus on the second, it didn't feel that way to me. Because all the sequences where they were searching for Ray had more to do with Oliver and Felicity having their fight. Then having it spill out onto the field with their comms? Not really a sign of a mature relationship from two people who are seasoned vigilante crime fighters.

[President_Luthor]

I don't know if I could cite any CW show examples, but having just watched Spectre, I can only think about James Bond and Vesper's courtship/relationship in Casino Royale as maybe an example of an intelligent way to ship a couple. You know, before it all went to hell and Bond put back on his ice-cold persona as armour against opening his heart again. Until the illusion shattered into a million pieces (secrets and lies, lol), their romance had flair, drama, electricity, danger, a large dose of intelligence and the whole dare-to-believe-in-soulmates/fate etc. The kind that an audience could buy into with little effort, which these manufactured CW romances could only dream of emulating.

All I can say is that, after this ep. I'm cautiously optimistic Olicity has left behind some (not all) of its more juvenile roots. They were adults having a conversation, the one-on-one scenes I'm thinking of here. (I'm intentionally excluding all that nonsense about surprise dinners, the dinner itself etc. Typical CW cheese.) But Bond-Vesper, the world is not enough level romance on a grand scale? Sorry, they're not there. And on this network I don't know they could actually get them to be a regular couple devoid of melodrama. On this network, lovey-dovey cheese usually wins over the rarer honest heart-to-hearts, such as Oliver and Felicity had this ep. Maybe it was due to SA and EBR playing it more subtly in those scenes with the benefit of some decent dialogue.

More of this, less of the cheese aka the "shmoopie" factor stuff in the Arrowcave aka the cheesy PDA's that only Ollie, Felicity and their shippers love. And the imitation movie Spidey-MJ liplock they had was pure textbook CW cheese.

It's also that I had such a low threshhold for what TPTB could do re: Olicity, when they didn't descend into melodramatic theatrics this time, I was surprised that they didn't default to it. I didn't turn away in disgust and, hold your horses, their conversation held my attention. I guess that's something for a shipper-indifferent viewer like me.

[Shelby Kent]

The Bad:

- Felicity bemoaning her ‘losing herself’ in Oliver. I’m sorry, Felicity, but you always lose yourself, and not just in whoever is your love interest. You do it with your work, too. The only saving grace here is she was rightfully admitting to her culpability in this regard. If she had been blaming Oliver, as Oliver seemed to think for a few scenes, I’d have been like, “great, Season 3 roller coaster, here we come.”

The Miscellaneous:

- Donna Smoak. While always a fun person to have guest star, she continues to remain nothing more than a plot device to her background-deprived daughter.

I must say this was one of the funniest scenes to me. Watching Felicity during the failed-chicken-dinner scene bemoan the fact to Ollie, as JDBentz said, that she lost herself in him. And she actually thinks, as she says, that she was never "that girl who loses herself in a guy, that is not who I am"

Well, that would be assuming that she ever had an independent self whose existence & story in this show had not been centered around first Ollie, then Ray, then Ollie again. Of course, she did have that brief shining moment in S1 when she was working at Queen, before she became an appendage to these various guys....

Currently of course, she does have something else to do that doesn't center around Ollie, which is her "work" as "CEO" at Palmer Tech --- but oh, yeah, that was thanks to Ray.

Anyway, here's what I believe was going on during that dinner scene (to paraphrase):

Ollie: blah blah blah you're acting like it's my fault..blah blah
Felicity: it's my fault .... blah blah blah....I lost myself in you ...blah blah blah
Ollie: this isn't about Ray, it's about us
Felicity: yes
Ollie: has a lightbulb moment and thinks to himself: "D**n, this is what I get for dating a background-deprived character**! @#@$%#@!!!"


**credit due to JDBentz for the phrase "background-deprived" LOL

[dreamsofnever]

I must say this was one of the funniest scenes to me. Watching Felicity during the failed-chicken-dinner scene bemoan the fact to Ollie, as JDBentz said, that she lost herself in him. And she actually thinks, as she says, that she was never "that girl who loses herself in a guy, that is not who I am"

Well, that would be assuming that she ever had an independent self whose existence & story in this show had not been centered around first Ollie, then Ray, then Ollie again. Of course, she did have that brief shining moment in S1 when she was working at Queen, before she became an appendage to these various guys....

Currently of course, she does have something else to do that doesn't center around Ollie, which is her "work" as "CEO" at Palmer Tech --- but oh, yeah, that was thanks to Ray.

Anyway, here's what I believe was going on during that dinner scene (to paraphrase):

Ollie: blah blah blah you're acting like it's my fault..blah blah
Felicity: it's my fault .... blah blah blah....I lost myself in you ...blah blah blah
Ollie: this isn't about Ray, it's about us
Felicity: yes
Ollie: has a lightbulb moment and thinks to himself: "D**n, this is what I get for dating a background-deprived character**! @#@$%#@!!!"


**credit due to JDBentz for the phrase "background-deprived" LOL

There's the snark I was waiting for! Bravo!

[Shelby Kent]

There's the snark I was waiting for! Bravo!

Oh, thank you. LOL. I have been so overwhelmed by the gifts (as you put it earlier) in this episode that I could not even write coherent sentences, so awestruck have I been by the material. I know I won't be able to do it justice. My brain has been racing with excitement -- it as if I were a drug dealer who had begun using her own product and am no longer functional. A cat reduced to no other activity except rolling around in catnip... productive snarking has been impossible...

Not to mention the inconvenience of RL *exasperated sigh & headshake* when clearly I have important snarking to do!

[evaba]

More of this, less of the cheese aka the "shmoopie" factor stuff in the Arrowcave aka the cheesy PDA's that only Ollie, Felicity and their shippers love. And the imitation movie Spidey-MJ liplock they had was pure textbook CW cheese.

That liplock looks is really similar to a scene from YA novel adaptation, "The Fault In Our Stars", that I watched with my teenage daughter....something which makes me suspect that the fans of YA novels/movies may be the demo that the directors are aiming at with this type of scenes/images! I also wish the writers would stop making Diggle an Olicity fanboy and a mouthpiece for the Felicity fandom....it's OK for Ollie and Diggle to discuss their relationships, but was it really necessary to include that line about Felicity being "the most badass woman in the world"? When the "propping" and the nods to a specific fanbase become so blatant the praise begins to sound eye-roll inducing and contrived rather than genuine and sincere.

[Halberdier17]

Wait she never lost herself in anybody I thought she lost herself in her college boyfriend, Barry until they kissed and decided to be friends, and Ray until she slept with him and immediately dumped him for Oliver.

This was my comment from the Live Discussion thread when she said she never lost herself in anybody.

[tua33915]

So 13 users, including me, gave this episode a 1/10.
Someone send this thread link to Marc Guggenheim, and Wendy Mericle.

Based upon 13 people? Seriously? My daughter had a slumber party last night. I have more people sleeping on my living room floor right now.

[evaba]

I think my biggest disappointment with this episode was how the Sara storyline was neglected and mishandled, in order to focus on Olicity relationship drama. I'm not saying that Felicity's reaction to Ray's return shouldn't be explored, but it dominated the episode far too much. As for Donna's appearance, it was IMHO pretty superfluous, since her only role was to prop Olicity and cater to the SmoakandLance shippers. In fact, I'd say that the writers were again catering to the Olicity fandom, since the fans who have campaigned for a Quentin/Donna romance are mostly oliciters, some of whom seem to believe that Quentin and Felicity have some kind father/daughter relationship, which would be further reinforced if Donna and Quentin hooked up and Felicity acquired a step-daughter role in relation to Quentin.

Furthermore, although I'm not a Sara fan per se, I think her resurrection storyline deserved much more attention than it was given in the "Lost Souls" episode, especially since the writers were quite willing to throw Laurel under the bus again in order to have Sara resurrected as a prerequiste for her LoT appearance as White Canary. Here is a post that expresses my feelings much better than I could do:

Donna and the Olicity drama is a fun diversion, but we don't need diversions when there's serious stuff to be dealt with. Like Sara's return and her reaction to, well, pretty much EVERYTHING around her.

Sara friggin came back FROM THE DEAD. She's the FIRST character we've actually seen do so...literally. We don't see any reaction to that.

We also don't see her react to the fact that she was murdered, or that Thea murdered her under Malcolm's influence. (Though I think they mention that she can't clearly remember how she died?)

We don't see her react AT ALL to Laurel having taken on her mantle, or to the new Team Arrow, the new lair, the new everything (beyond "I used to remember there being less chatter on these missions" which admittedly was a great line).

Hell, it'd have been nice to give her ONE scene with Oliver, the guy who, from her POV, she had been involved with a few MONTHS ago

I also find it odd that Dinah's reaction to Sara's resurrection was cursorily resolved with a PHONE call, while Donna had to come all the way over to Star city in order to solve Oliver's and Felicity's relationship problems. This writing choice seems especially misguided, since Sara's disappearance was the catalyst that made Dinah leave her husband and daughter in the first place, and since it also made her embark on a rather obsessive hunt for her daughter that lasted for many years (something which was very evident in several season one episodes). If ANYONE's mother should have appeared in "Lost Souls", it should have been Laurel's and Sara's mother IMHO.

I understand that writers and producers sometimes downplay or retcon earlier storylines in order to adapt to new decisions concerning characters and story content (e.g. making Felicity Oliver's primary love interest). However, it still annoys me that the writers apparently thought it was so much more important to focus on Felicity and Oliver "losing themselves in each other" (or having "Arrow" characters telling us for the umteenth time what a remarkable person Felicity is!) that they just brushed over several of the story points that they themselves treated as very important in earlier episodes and seasons.

[Carmine-Infantino]

I think my biggest disappointment with this episode was how the Sara storyline was neglected and mishandled, in order to focus on Olicity relationship drama. I'm not saying that Felicity's reaction to Ray's return shouldn't be explored, but it dominated the episode far too much. As for Donna's appearance, it was IMHO pretty superfluous, since her only role was to prop Olicity and cater to the SmoakandLance shippers. In fact, I'd say that the writers were again catering to the Olicity fandom, since the fans who have campaigned for a Quentin/Donna romance are mostly oliciters, some of whom seem to believe that Quentin and Felicity have some kind father/daughter relationship, which would be further reinforced if Donna and Quentin hooked up and Felicity acquired a step-daughter role in relation to Quentin.

Furthermore, although I'm not a Sara fan per se, I think her resurrection storyline deserved much more attention than it was given in the "Lost Souls" episode, especially since the writers were quite willing to throw Laurel under the bus again in order to have Sara resurrected as a prerequiste for her LoT appearance as White Canary. Here is a post that expresses my feelings much better than I could do:



I also find it odd that Dinah's reaction to Sara's resurrection was cursorily resolved with a PHONE call, while Donna had to come all the way over to Star city in order to solve Oliver's and Felicity's relationship problems. This writing choice seems especially misguided, since Sara's disappearance was the catalyst that made Dinah leave her husband and daughter in the first place, and since it also made her embark on a rather obsessive hunt for her daughter that lasted for many years (something which was very evident in several season one episodes). If ANYONE's mother should have appeared in "Lost Souls", it should have been Laurel's and Sara's mother IMHO.

I understand that writers and producers sometimes downplay or retcon earlier storylines in order to adapt to new decisions concerning characters and story content (e.g. making Felicity Oliver's primary love interest). However, it still annoys me that the writers apparently thought it was so much more important to focus on Felicity and Oliver "losing themselves in each other" (or having "Arrow" characters telling us for the umteenth time what a remarkable person Felicity is!) that they just brushed over several of the story points that they themselves treated as very important in earlier episodes and seasons.

River probably wasn't available, same problem with Caity Lotz. C.L. was busy filming LOT and could only spend a day or two on Arrow set. The episode was pretty bad, but they can't write story lines if the actors aren't available.

[jon-el87]

River probably wasn't available, same problem with Caity Lotz. C.L. was busy filming LOT and could only spend a day or two on Arrow set. The episode was pretty bad, but they can't write story lines if the actors aren't available.

And what time they did have, they chose to waste on the Kord break-in. Then she's gone and returns out of nowhere, saying she'll help them free Ray. Why not leave her out of the break-in, focus her scenes on her interactions with Laurel (about being brought back to life, her thirst for blood and Laurel taking over as Canary), then have her decide to join the others to help rescue Ray? Her talking to Laurel would take less time to shoot, than action scenes.

[Carmine-Infantino]

And what time they did have, they chose to waste on the Kord break-in. Then she's gone and returns out of nowhere, saying she'll help them free Ray. Why not leave her out of the break-in, focus her scenes on her interactions with Laurel (about being brought back to life, her thirst for blood and Laurel taking over as Canary), then have her decide to join the others to help rescue Ray? Her talking to Laurel would take less time to shoot, than action scenes.

I agree with you, Sara was handled poorly. My point was the writers were a bit hamstrung by the actors schedule. None of the things I wanted to see with Sara were addressed, and as Sara is my favorite character I was very disappointed. I suppose they thought it would be easier to shoot a few action scenes, use stunt doubles as much as possible and just send her on her way t o LOT. As a result, what could have been a really great episode ended up being one of the worst.