View Poll Results: What did you think?

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  • 10 - Hellblazingly Good

    12 41.38%
  • 9

    5 17.24%
  • 8

    6 20.69%
  • 7

    4 13.79%
  • 6

    2 6.90%
  • 5

    0 0%
  • 4

    0 0%
  • 3

    0 0%
  • 2

    0 0%
  • 1 - Episode From Hell

    0 0%
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  1. #46
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    The CW has style to throw constantine in NBC's face like that, well done to the writers also. They gave John the same edgy attitude and spunk. Although I think it deserved a bit more CGI and scary happenings. All in all i love the diversity they are giving the cast, minus a few like laurel cant stand the story and role they have given/put her in. But other then that they are doing amazing job mixing with the flash and bringing in atom and now magic. Im almost expecting to see Zatanna soon as a Magic relief for the team. But that would make Arrow surrounded by tons of Latex bound women, so it's hard to say what is in store for the future.

  2. #47
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagenspear View Post
    Oliver's dumb decisions have nothing to do with regression. You just showed the difference again between how you treat Laurel and how you treat Oliver. You call Oliver's decisions and actions dumb, but actually call Laurel herself a moron, when Oliver's actions and decisions have consistently been dumber and caused more damage than hers. You do this a lot. Oliver and Sara's actions have caused worse and been dumber. But you attack Laurel for lesser actions. I just went through a whole season of posts in the love hate episode threads to corroborate your claim and in not a single one that I saw did you once criticize Oliver's poor decision making. But through all this you were arguing against Laurel in her thread. If you're going to attack one character, there's no reason to not attack another one for actions that were just as bad or worse.
    I barely bothered posting in the Love/Hate threads last year. Hardly a gotcha moment. I know my opinions and I know I've expressed both frustration in his action and why Oliver gets more consideration from me for his actions and nope, I don't have to equally attack characters if I find some other saving factor to mitigate their actions.

    Like Oliver. He isn't being the dumb ass that he was most of last season. He didn't just have three episodes devoted to playing around with forces he didn't understand while bullheadedly ignoring any reasonable advice and going out of his way to keep his actions from judgment at the expense of multiple lives. Nope. He's spent the whole season fixing his relationships and being a better man.

    Laurel just had at least her THIRD fix it episode designed to reset and make the audience love her. "I'm a raging addict that lashes out and blames everyone for my problems and hates that my dead sister is alive." Poof. Bring on Time of Death and some weird revelation that Laurel has been drowning still on that boat.

    Next there was, "I am full of so much rage that I will take to the streets to get my adrenaline fix while actively deceiving my father about the death of his other daughter, forcing those with more experience to not go into the field and put my life at risk thus making it likely my father will find out at the same time both of his daughters are dead". Poof. Canaries.

    Then this season "why shouldn't I dig up my sister's corpse a year later to toss in a pit using the unbalanced mind of my friend under my protection as excuse to get to a place were she is forced into murder and everyone with actual understanding about what I want to do tells me it would not even bring my sister back but a monster but hey when my friend gets mad about being forced to kill, her upset serves me well and I get what I want and so does Malcolm (why should I ask Thea why she woke me up hysterical about needing to leave that moment and not wishing her affliction on Sara, think about what I need Thea!) and now I give my father ten times the kind of emotional strain I used as an excuse to hide the truth about Sara's death by not gently breaking the news that his dead daughter has risen from the grave but oops, is now a feral monster that doesn't know who he is but would like to attack him and kill him and the only fix-it Daddy can think of is to have to put down his baby like a rabid dog, but he can't.

    Only for said rabid dog to escape and be allowed to run the city killing and attacking unchecked for a WEEK because Laurel couldn't handle criticism and she assumed the worst of everyone, blames Oliver for his actions to avoid feeling guilty that the same friend used to bring back dead sister was beat up and being targeted for death, and then on top of everything, after setting herself up as the only one to have faith in Sara, when it's her turn to be attacked and beaten by Sara, now it just makes sense to put her down without asking anyone for other options. ". Oh but Poof, Haunted ends and it's all Bygones!

    Oliver has made some doozy of bad choices but he doesn't just have an episide devoted to airing all the grievances against him before they are hand waved away as if saying the problems out loud was all that was needed to fix them. He has to face his mistakes, change his way of thinking, solve his initial problem and then still face lasting repercussions months down the line for his actions. So yeah, Oliver gets less complaining from me.

    Like I said. I hope this version of Laurel Lance's redemption tour sticks. It's getting old.
    Last edited by BkWurm1; 11-06-2015 at 08:12 AM.

  3. #48
    Why is everyone ignoring the fact that NBC's Constantine is now officially part of the Flarrow-verse, which automatically makes the peacock feather gag simply an example of the writers having some good-natured fun with the cancellation situation?

  4. #49
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    Amid all the hoopla surrounding LOT, LOT prequel easter eggs re: team members stepping to the forefront, it's regrettable that story arcs like Darhk's and the HIVE mystery surrounding Diggle's brother have been sidelined/placed the background. Not to mention the most important one: Ollie's own "claiming the GA mantle" arc(!)

    While it is good that we received some answers to HIVE, it also means now that the mystery has largely been answered -- it's one less subplot that could have given Diggle more character-specific development. I think fans would welcome more from him than simply as Magneto's mortal SC cousin-on-a-TV-budget. If this were a non-LOT-flavoured season, I think Darkh (and NM!) would be owning this season. Perhaps the second half we may be getting more Arrow-focused stuff where Darkh can rightfully reclaim the attention as the S4 alpha antagonist. I'm hoping.

    Giving the LOT people time to emerge/develop is needed, I'll grant that, but I just wish it was better executed and didn't come at the cost of Arrow plots and Arrow characters -- and potentially Flash plots/characters too. For the moment, it looks like Arrow's crew is enduring the lion's share of LOT-stage-setting blowback. (You'll get your turn, Flash.) This is where I'm laying responsibility for some of the retro-dramatic behaviour from Team Arrow members. Felicity hasn't suffered as much blowback so far, simply because in her 'where is Ray' scenes -- she's essentially on another show aka LOT Prequel Episode 0.1. I guess being removed from the orbit of Arrow in order to bolster Ray/A.T.O.M. is a form of blowback too.

    On a less serious note, Olicity doesn't bother me so much in S4 (handrubbing included) because this too has also stepped into the background as LOT stuff takes the forefront. Shippers love whatever they can get, the rest -- meh. If anything, it also shows Arrow fans of Flash that they've got a good thing going with Barry and Patty.
    Last edited by President_Luthor; 11-06-2015 at 08:35 AM.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    I barely bothered posting in the Love/Hate threads last year. Hardly a gotcha moment. I know my opinions and I know I've expressed both frustration in his action and why Oliver gets more consideration from me for his actions and nope, I don't have to equally attack characters if I find some other saving factor to mitigate their actions.

    Like Oliver. He isn't being the dumb ass that he was most of last season. He didn't just have three episodes devoted to playing around with forces he didn't understand while bullheadedly ignoring any reasonable advice and going out of his way to keep his actions from judgment at the expense of multiple lives. Nope. He's spent the whole season fixing his relationships and being a better man.

    Laurel just had at least her THIRD fix it episode designed to reset and make the audience love her. "I'm a raging addict that lashes out and blames everyone for my problems and hates that my dead sister is alive." Poof. Bring on Time of Death and some weird revelation that Laurel has been drowning still on that boat.

    Next there was, "I am full of so much rage that I will take to the streets to get my adrenaline fix while actively deceiving my father about the death of his other daughter, forcing those with more experience to not go into the field and put my life at risk thus making it likely my father will find out at the same time both of his daughters are dead". Poof. Canaries.

    Then this season "why shouldn't I dig up my sister's corpse a year later to toss in a pit using the unbalanced mind of my friend under my protection as excuse to get to a place were she is forced into murder and everyone with actual understanding about what I want to do tells me it would not even bring my sister back but a monster but hey when my friend gets mad about being forced to kill, her upset serves me well and I get what I want and so does Malcolm (why should I ask Thea why she woke me up hysterical about needing to leave that moment and not wishing her affliction on Sara, think about what I need Thea!) and now I give my father ten times the kind of emotional strain I used as an excuse to hide the truth about Sara's death by not gently breaking the news that his dead daughter has risen from the grave but oops, is now a feral monster that doesn't know who he is but would like to attack him and kill him and the only fix-it Daddy can think of is to have to put down his baby like a rabid dog, but he can't.

    Only for said rabid dog to escape and be allowed to run the city killing and attacking unchecked for a WEEK because Laurel couldn't handle criticism and she assumed the worst of everyone, blames Oliver for his actions to avoid feeling guilty that the same friend used to bring back dead sister was beat up and being targeted for death, and then on top of everything, after setting herself up as the only one to have faith in Sara, when it's her turn to be attacked and beaten by Sara, now it just makes sense to put her down without asking anyone for other options. ". Oh but Poof, Haunted ends and it's all Bygones!

    Oliver has made some doozy of bad choices but he doesn't just have an episide devoted to airing all the grievances against him before they are hand waved away as if saying the problems out loud was all that was needed to fix them. He has to face his mistakes, change his way of thinking, solve his initial problem and then still face lasting repercussions months down the line for his actions. So yeah, Oliver gets less complaining from me.

    Like I said. I hope this version of Laurel Lance's redemption tour sticks. It's getting old.
    Ok you have brought up some interesting points.

    There are times where I do disagree with your points when it comes Laurel but I kind of half to agree here to a certain extent.

    First I get what the writers were going for with Laurel bringing Sara back but as we've seen they have screwed up, again.

    Having Laurel not wanting to face judgement for her actions suggests she at her core knows this is wrong and to bottom line her not wanting to face judgment does not show good strength of character. Plus her wanting to hide it from everybody after Sara escapes and then goes on a tiny killing spree.

    This in my mind kind of makes her seam selfish and not really show the actions of a hero or good person.

    For Oliver the reason why I'm a little more willing to go with some of his choices because we've seen him have to face consequences for his actions a bit more. Well as least on the CW consequences which they have done it a lot better than Smallville.

    Do I still like Laurel, yes. Do I like how they've recently been writing her and the choices she's been making um no.

  6. #51
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haggard01 View Post
    Well as least on the CW consequences which they have done it a lot better than Smallville.
    You could have mic-dropped your post right here.

    Compared to SV, Arrow's crew are pro-active, decision-making pros. I think as the direct successor to SV in the CW superhero arena, Arrow has inherited some of SV's sappy melodramatic flaws -- which they still haven't fully exorcised. They've confused SV's longevity with: "What makes superhero shows good!" and adopted the crap with the cream. Arrow inherited both good and bad, their misfortune being they were first out of the gate post-SV. Flash had the benefit of learning from Arrow's missteps. (If Flash had gotten out first, I think Barry would still be pining over Iris like nobody's business.)

    Do I still like Laurel, yes. Do I like how they've recently been writing her and the choices she's been making um no.
    This summarizes what Arrow fans feel. It's fixable, and it's not like they don't know how to. They've shown they can do on Flash. They either don't have the time (due to LOT), can't be bothered to invest in the effort to do so -- or, worst case scenario, they don't know how to.

    Both Ollie and Laurel in this ep. seemed to be taking on previous-seasons' personas. Partly because they are reliving old, tired baggage between them. It looks like TPTB are finally waking up(?) and are going to show real evolution and growth in their friendship. They are better than SV, they know it, we know it -- the writing needs to show it too.

  7. #52
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    I barely bothered posting in the Love/Hate threads last year. Hardly a gotcha moment. I know my opinions and I know I've expressed both frustration in his action and why Oliver gets more consideration from me for his actions and nope, I don't have to equally attack characters if I find some other saving factor to mitigate their actions.
    Everyone has to be equally attacked or there's no reason to attack anyone. You did the same thing you did before just now. You say that you expressed frustration at Oliver's actions, which you have no proof of, but expressing frustration is nothing like the outward and harsh attacks against Laurel for similar or lesser actions.If you can't present a fair, unbiased rebuttal then there is no argument.
    Like Oliver. He isn't being the dumb ass that he was most of last season. He didn't just have three episodes devoted to playing around with forces he didn't understand while bullheadedly ignoring any reasonable advice and going out of his way to keep his actions from judgment at the expense of multiple lives. Nope. He's spent the whole season fixing his relationships and being a better man.
    He hasn't fixed his relationships or been a better man. He's the same as before, just lighter. He's been given a free pass for all his bad decisions, like he always is. He messes up Thea's mind bringing her back? Fixed with a brother sister talk and Thea's guilt. Diggle's angry at him for kidnapping his wife and leaving his baby to be at the whims of anyone? Fixed with Oliver having the gall to get angry at Diggle for being angry and telling him to let him fix it, which he can't do, and then taking a playing card for Diggle. Trouble with Quentin? Oliver having the utter craptastic nonsensical gall to yell at Quentin and tell him that he's wanted Quentin to see him for who he is, which Quentin has always done, but Oliver expects to be seen as a good person, always has expected to be seen that way and has never thought of himself as deserving of his attacks, even though he's an awful person who has murdered over two dozen people, including for all intents and purposes innocent people who were just guards.
    Laurel just had at least her THIRD fix it episode designed to reset and make the audience love her. "I'm a raging addict that lashes out and blames everyone for my problems and hates that my dead sister is alive." Poof. Bring on Time of Death and some weird revelation that Laurel has been drowning still on that boat.
    Laurel didn't blame everyone for her problems and she was angry because Sara had pretended to be dead while everyone suffered thinking she was and that she kept this a secret at the expense at her family's safety. That wasn't used to fix Laurel either. It was used to make her compliant to Oliver and Sara's whims, which she shouldn't have been. It was used to hurt her character more by breaking her down to villify her for the sake of two serial murderers who don't deserve her compliance to make her act nice to them because women who get angry people for doing the wrong thing aren't attractive.
    Next there was, "I am full of so much rage that I will take to the streets to get my adrenaline fix while actively deceiving my father about the death of his other daughter, forcing those with more experience to not go into the field and put my life at risk thus making it likely my father will find out at the same time both of his daughters are dead". Poof. Canaries.
    She didn't need fixing there. Her actions are no worse in that situation than the actions of others. The fact that the show felt the need to fix her is more a showcase that they again felt like they had to cater to fans and justify the actions of a non-compliant woman, when they don't do that with their compliant ones or the men.
    Then this season "why shouldn't I dig up my sister's corpse a year later to toss in a pit using the unbalanced mind of my friend under my protection as excuse to get to a place were she is forced into murder and everyone with actual understanding about what I want to do tells me it would not even bring my sister back but a monster but hey when my friend gets mad about being forced to kill, her upset serves me well and I get what I want and so does Malcolm (why should I ask Thea why she woke me up hysterical about needing to leave that moment and not wishing her affliction on Sara, think about what I need Thea!) and now I give my father ten times the kind of emotional strain I used as an excuse to hide the truth about Sara's death by not gently breaking the news that his dead daughter has risen from the grave but oops, is now a feral monster that doesn't know who he is but would like to attack him and kill him and the only fix-it Daddy can think of is to have to put down his baby like a rabid dog, but he can't.
    Why should what Thea wants matter in regards to Laurel's sister? Especially considering Thea didn't take issue with it until the ceremony. Thea's a big girl. If she has a comment she can express it. And Laurel did ask her what was going on. Laurel let go of the concern of Quentin's stress levels last season, which you wanted her to do. And not that she's let go of it, you attack her for that too. Should she care about her father's life or not? She did and you hated her for it, then she didn't and you hated her for it. It's not like you care about the fact that she was protecting her father from the truth, which you seem to want to ignore to create a headcanon to vilify Laurel when you defend the exact same decisions from Sara and Oliver.
    Only for said rabid dog to escape and be allowed to run the city killing and attacking unchecked for a WEEK because Laurel couldn't handle criticism and she assumed the worst of everyone, blames Oliver for his actions to avoid feeling guilty that the same friend used to bring back dead sister was beat up and being targeted for death, and then on top of everything, after setting herself up as the only one to have faith in Sara, when it's her turn to be attacked and beaten by Sara, now it just makes sense to put her down without asking anyone for other options. ". Oh but Poof, Haunted ends and it's all Bygones!
    She decided to put Sara down in the talk with Thea where she says that if killing Thea was the cure then that wasn't a cure at all. That was why she brought the gun. She didn't do anything to avoid feeling guilty. She outright took responsibility for her actions. Who else is she going to blame for Oliver's actions? But Oliver has murdered more people, which makes him pretending to care about the human life of criminals rich, when he hasn't shown an ounce of remorse for even murdering people who were just guards.
    Oliver has made some doozy of bad choices but he doesn't just have an episide devoted to airing all the grievances against him before they are hand waved away as if saying the problems out loud was all that was needed to fix them. He has to face his mistakes, change his way of thinking, solve his initial problem and then still face lasting repercussions months down the line for his actions. So yeah, Oliver gets less complaining from me.
    He has never faced lasting repercussions for any of bad decisions and has never had to fix them. He's consistently given a free pass. His way of thinking has never changed and he's never solved his initial problem. Not that it matters, because nothing that someone does changes what they did. A serial murderer deciding not to be a serial murderer doesn't change that he was and it doesn't change every single person that has suffered because of it. Nothing he does in the present changes his past and it doesn't make him less deserving of criticism for his past actions and it doesn't mean that his current actions are deserving of more praise.

    God bless you! God bless your family and everyone else in your life!
    Last edited by Dagenspear; 11-06-2015 at 06:23 PM.

  8. #53
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Everyone has to be equally attacked or there's no reason to attack anyone
    Well you know by now that I don't believe in that in the least.

    He hasn't fixed his relationships or been a better man
    Every episode this season has focused on Oliver working on his relationship with someone. He got to the truth of the problems with Thea in 2, finally got a chance to start making up what he did to Diggle in 3, was first looking for support, then was disillusioned and then gave Lance a chance at redemption for working with DD and in 5, well, I agree that he just swept his issues with Laurel under the rug but hey, he promised to be a better friend in the future and Laurel was happy enough it. So yeah, Oliver is fixing relationships and is being a better man. He's stepping out into the light, giving the people hope both as the Green Arrow and as Oliver Queen.

    Why should what Thea wants matter in regards to Laurel's sister?
    Thea woke Laurel up in the middle of the night wanting to leave that moment. Malcolm barged in and offered to bring Sara back to buy back Thea's ...I won't say love but willingness to speak to him. At that moment, Thea said no, she wouldn't wish what she was going through on anyone. So Thea is the only one that even had a tiny clue how messed up Sara would be and based just on her dip when she wasn't even dead, she realized it wasn't something she'd wish on anyone. Ah, but Malcolm played with her mind and Laurel begged and Thea gave in. Thea is the resident expert on side effects from being dipped in the pit. Thea should have been listened to.

    She didn't do anything to avoid feeling guilty.
    She flat out said she didn't tell Oliver about Sara or come to him for help because she didn't want to deal with his judgment. That's avoiding feeling guilty.

    Who else is she going to blame for Oliver's actions?
    Why is she trying to shift the blame for what she did to Oliver's shoulders?


    He has never faced lasting repercussions for any of bad decisions and has never had to fix them
    I disagree. Oliver has done nothing but face repercussions for his bad choices for the last 8-9 with the exception of that little killing spree he'd been on but show standards never held that against him and it's his show so I won't either.

  9. #54
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    Well you know by now that I don't believe in that in the least.
    It's a fact of life.
    Every episode this season has focused on Oliver working on his relationship with someone. He got to the truth of the problems with Thea in 2, finally got a chance to start making up what he did to Diggle in 3, was first looking for support, then was disillusioned and then gave Lance a chance at redemption for working with DD and in 5, well, I agree that he just swept his issues with Laurel under the rug but hey, he promised to be a better friend in the future and Laurel was happy enough it. So yeah, Oliver is fixing relationships and is being a better man. He's stepping out into the light, giving the people hope both as the Green Arrow and as Oliver Queen.
    He will never be able to give people hope by his very nature as a man and a vigilante. Because of what he has done and his refusal to accept responsibility for his crimes he will never be able to become a better man. In not one of those situations did he actually work on his relationship at all. They were all things where he just said something, then did the same thing he would have done before and that was that. Even with Diggle he had to be yelled at by Felicity to have a real talk with Diggle, where he asked to be given a chance he didn't deserve, something he's always done. He did the same thing with Quentin that he's been doing since season 1 too. His comment about being seen for who he really is has always been something he maintained from the Pilot, when he has always been a bad person, but he demands that Quentin treat him like he isn't. He didn't get to the truth of the problems with Thea. He saw them and commented on them, but did nothing to fix them, beyond the same talk they always have. He lied to Laurel. Like he's lied every time that he's said that he loved her. What Laurel's happy with doesn't concern me.
    Thea woke Laurel up in the middle of the night wanting to leave that moment. Malcolm barged in and offered to bring Sara back to buy back Thea's ...I won't say love but willingness to speak to him. At that moment, Thea said no, she wouldn't wish what she was going through on anyone. So Thea is the only one that even had a tiny clue how messed up Sara would be and based just on her dip when she wasn't even dead, she realized it wasn't something she'd wish on anyone. Ah, but Malcolm played with her mind and Laurel begged and Thea gave in. Thea is the resident expert on side effects from being dipped in the pit. Thea should have been listened to.
    Laurel didn't beg at all. Malcolm made his offer and that was the end of it. Thea didn't object until they were actually doing it and then it was only because of Nyssa.
    She flat out said she didn't tell Oliver about Sara or come to him for help because she didn't want to deal with his judgment. That's avoiding feeling guilty.
    No it isn't. That's not wanting to hear someone hypocritically yell at you. It has nothing to do with guilt.
    Why is she trying to shift the blame for what she did to Oliver's shoulders?
    She wasn't. She accepted responsibility for what she did and then got onto Oliver for what he does.
    I disagree. Oliver has done nothing but face repercussions for his bad choices for the last 8-9 with the exception of that little killing spree he'd been on but show standards never held that against him and it's his show so I won't either.
    He's never once faced any repercussions for his actions. Everyone around him has faced the repercussions. There's that unfair, biased judgment again. His show or not, it doesn't matter. It's hypocrisy. He doesn't deserve to be treated any differently than any other murderer and nothing the show tries to say will make that not a fact.

    God bless you! God bless your family and everyone else in your life!
    Last edited by Dagenspear; 11-08-2015 at 12:53 PM.

  10. #55
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    Everyone has to be equally attacked or there's no reason to attack anyone. You did the same thing you did before just now. You say that you expressed frustration at Oliver's actions, which you have no proof of, but expressing frustration is nothing like the outward and harsh attacks against Laurel for similar or lesser actions.If you can't present a fair, unbiased rebuttal then there is no argument
    I have to agree with @Dagenspear that BkWurm's sometimes very harsh and condemnatory criticism of Laurel often seems rather one-sided. In fact, the way it is formulated, and the sheer volume of posts dedicated to detailing Laurel's faults and flaws makes the dislike seem almost personal, as if Laurel Lance was a real person, rather than a fictional character. I believe that IF all the "Arrow" characters were subjected to the same scrutiny, we would find that they have commited just as many reproachable actions and displayed just as many reprehensible modes of behavior.

    Anyway, here is a post that contrasts Laurel's alleged "selfishness" for wanting to bring her sister back to life (and its repercussions) with some other characters' equally selfish actions:

    If youíre calling Laurel Lance selfish for her actions

    .....then you should have no problem calling Felicity Smoak and Oliver Queen selfish for the following

    - Felicity asking Ray to risk millions of lives to save one life.
    - Felicity taking on a job of a CEO without any experience what so ever (Thatís usually not good for a company. Especially one that has ties to Oliverís family.)
    - Oliver and Felicity LEAVING at the end of season three to go on vacation while his team continues HIS work. (Come on. Thatís the epitome of selfishness right there.)
    - Felicity Creating a virus that almost crippled all of Starling City
    - Oliver Queen working with the man who murdered Sara.
    - Oliver Queen protecting the man who murdered Sara.
    - Oliver Queen kidnapping Diggleís wife and betraying his team mates trust.
    - Oliver going on a killing spree in the first season of Arrow.
    -Oliver turning over the leadership of the League of Assassins to the man who killed his best friend, who killed Sara AND more than 500 innocent Starling city citizens

    Lets not Forget Oliver Queen denying justice for Saraís death. Cause thatís not selfish at all right?

    Some of these accusations will undoubtedly be seen as unfair and even ridiculous, but so are the accusations against Laurel IMHO, at least when they are couched in such strong condemnatory language as her more ardent detractors like to use. As @Dagenspear noted, there has to be some measure of equality when it comes to critiquing characters for their actions, otherwise the criticism comes off as unfair and one-sided.
    Last edited by evaba; 11-10-2015 at 04:38 AM.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by evaba View Post
    I have to agree with @Dagenspear that BkWurm's sometimes very harsh and condemnatory criticism of Laurel often seems rather one-sided. In fact, the way it is formulated, and the sheer volume of posts dedicated to detailing Laurel's faults and flaws makes the dislike seem almost personal, as if Laurel Lance was a real person, rather than a fictional character. I believe that IF all the "Arrow" characters were subjected to the same scrutiny, we would find that they have commited just as many reproachable actions and displayed just as many reprehensible modes of behavior.

    Anyway, here is a post that contrasts Laurel's alleged "selfishness" for wanting to bring her sister back to life (and its repercussions) with some other characters' equally selfish actions:

    If youíre calling Laurel Lance selfish for her actions

    .....then you should have no problem calling Felicity Smoak and Oliver Queen selfish for the following

    - Felicity asking Ray to risk millions of lives to save one life.
    - Felicity taking on a job of a CEO without any experience what so ever (Thatís usually not good for a company. Especially one that has ties to Oliverís family.)
    - Oliver and Felicity LEAVING at the end of season three to go on vacation while his team continues HIS work. (Come on. Thatís the epitome of selfishness right there.)
    - Felicity Creating a virus that almost crippled all of Starling City
    - Oliver Queen working with the man who murdered Sara.
    - Oliver Queen protecting the man who murdered Sara.
    - Oliver Queen kidnapping Diggleís wife and betraying his team mates trust.
    - Oliver going on a killing spree in the first season of Arrow.
    -Oliver turning over the leadership of the League of Assassins to the man who killed his best friend, who killed Sara AND more than 500 innocent Starling city citizens

    Lets not Forget Oliver Queen denying justice for Saraís death. Cause thatís not selfish at all right?

    Some of these accusations will undoubtedly be seen as unfair and even ridiculous, but so are the accusations against Laurel IMHO, at least when they are couched in such strong condemnatory language as her more ardent detractors like to use. As @Dagenspear noted, there has to be some measure of equality when it comes to critiquing characters for their actions, otherwise the criticism comes off as unfair and one-sided.
    Excellently framed, evaba. I don't always particularly agree with Dagenspear myself, but in this we agree. I expounded something similar in the Laurel Lance thread, using Oliver and Diggle.

  12. #57
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evaba View Post
    I have to agree with @Dagenspear that BkWurm's sometimes very harsh and condemnatory criticism of Laurel often seems rather one-sided. In fact, the way it is formulated, and the sheer volume of posts dedicated to detailing Laurel's faults and flaws makes the dislike seem almost personal, as if Laurel Lance was a real person, rather than a fictional character. I believe that IF all the "Arrow" characters were subjected to the same scrutiny, we would find that they have commited just as many reproachable actions and displayed just as many reprehensible modes of behavior.

    Anyway, here is a post that contrasts Laurel's alleged "selfishness" for wanting to bring her sister back to life (and its repercussions) with some other characters' equally selfish actions:

    If youíre calling Laurel Lance selfish for her actions

    .....then you should have no problem calling Felicity Smoak and Oliver Queen selfish for the following

    - Felicity asking Ray to risk millions of lives to save one life.
    - Felicity taking on a job of a CEO without any experience what so ever (Thatís usually not good for a company. Especially one that has ties to Oliverís family.)
    - Oliver and Felicity LEAVING at the end of season three to go on vacation while his team continues HIS work. (Come on. Thatís the epitome of selfishness right there.)
    - Felicity Creating a virus that almost crippled all of Starling City
    - Oliver Queen working with the man who murdered Sara.
    - Oliver Queen protecting the man who murdered Sara.
    - Oliver Queen kidnapping Diggleís wife and betraying his team mates trust.
    - Oliver going on a killing spree in the first season of Arrow.
    -Oliver turning over the leadership of the League of Assassins to the man who killed his best friend, who killed Sara AND more than 500 innocent Starling city citizens

    Lets not Forget Oliver Queen denying justice for Saraís death. Cause thatís not selfish at all right?

    Some of these accusations will undoubtedly be seen as unfair and even ridiculous, but so are the accusations against Laurel IMHO, at least when they are couched in such strong condemnatory language as her more ardent detractors like to use. As @Dagenspear noted, there has to be some measure of equality when it comes to critiquing characters for their actions, otherwise the criticism comes off as unfair and one-sided.
    Thank you. It's strange. A comment once was made by BkWurm about how the reason Sara didn't tell her family that she was alive was because she didn't want them to judge her or something, which is a selfish reason. Then she turns around and trashes Laurel for not telling Quentin about Sara's death and calling it selfish because she didn't wanna deal with the fallout. The statement that was made just recently about how Oliver has faced repercussions for his actions is another example. BkWurm said that in the situation where Laurel was saved by Tommy that Laurel didn't face the consequences of that even though she went into depression and alcoholism partially because of it, but Tommy faced the consequences of it by dying, but Oliver's family and those he loves being killed or taken hostage or hurt because of his decisions is Oliver facing the consequences? How is it that Laurel doesn't face the consequences, but Oliver does for almost exactly the same situations? I don't understand it. It's good to see you around here, as always.

    God bless you! God bless your family and everyone else in your life!

  13. #58
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    It's good to see you around here, as always.
    Well, thank you @Dagenspear! I'll try to write a proper episode review of the next episode!

  14. #59
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    I have to agree with @Dagenspear that BkWurm's sometimes very harsh and condemnatory criticism of Laurel often seems rather one-sided. In fact, the way it is formulated, and the sheer volume of posts dedicated to detailing Laurel's faults and flaws makes the dislike seem almost personal, as if Laurel Lance was a real person, rather than a fictional character. I believe that IF all the "Arrow" characters were subjected to the same scrutiny, we would find that they have commited just as many reproachable actions and displayed just as many reprehensible modes of behavior.
    Well it is one sided in that no, being that Laurel is not a real person, she is not likely ever to have a chance to criticize me, lol but given that I am just about the ONLY voice that EVER criticizes Laurel on this entire forum, then no, I don't feel like I am being unfair to her at all. There is a much more evenly handed criticism of Oliver or Malcolm or even Ray or Roy or Thea here than of Laurel. So I talk about Laurel's problems since that is where there is a need and again, instead of refuting or just plain disagreeing with my criticism, the subject it changed to why don't I complain about someone else. THat's not answering or defending Laurel or even saying I'm wrong. It's trying to shift focus and change the subject. Also a common practice is to start taking pot shots right at me and try to make comments about a fictional show somehow personal. Yeah, I'm not the one doing that.



    Anyway, here is a post that contrasts Laurel's alleged "selfishness" for wanting to bring her sister back to life (and its repercussions) with some other characters' equally selfish actions:

    If youíre calling Laurel Lance selfish for her actions

    .....then you should have no problem calling Felicity Smoak and Oliver Queen selfish for the following
    I'll play along.

    - Felicity asking Ray to risk millions of lives to save one life. - A emotional reaction that she had for ten seconds before she came to her senses and found another way that risked only her and Oliver's lives. -

    Felicity taking on a job of a CEO without any experience what so ever (Thatís usually not good for a company. Especially one that has ties to Oliverís family.) - Thus following Ray's wishes even though she expressed wished to Oliver that she did not have such a burden. She's actually putting Ray's wishes ahead of hers. Not selfish. -

    Oliver and Felicity LEAVING at the end of season three to go on vacation while his team continues HIS work. (Come on. Thatís the epitome of selfishness right there.) - Everyone spent the back half of season 3 making it clear to Oliver that it is as much their mission as it ever was his. The team had already accepted that when Oliver joined the LoA that he may never come back and then when they thought him brainwashed, accepted that he wasn't coming back. No one forced anyone to make saving the city their mission. It was their choice and Oliver had just as much right to choose not to come back. Call it selfish but the team can't be considered equals if they don't equally afford Oliver the right to make his own choices about the mission.

    - Felicity Creating a virus that almost crippled all of Starling City - A bad idea, reckless, wrong even but selfish? How? Something stolen from her and misused for evil purposes that when she realized what was happening admitted her part in the original virus. Nope. Not selfish.

    - Oliver Queen working with the man who murdered Sara. - selfish -

    Oliver Queen protecting the man who murdered Sara. - selfish and stupid
    - Oliver Queen kidnapping Diggleís wife and betraying his team mates trust. stupid and self serving and stupid and extremely hurtful-
    Oliver going on a killing spree in the first season of Arrow. - Wrong but I can't figure out how it is selfish beyond the standard of him deciding he has the right to decide if they lived or died but being selfish isn't the motive I'd associate with murder.
    -Oliver turning over the leadership of the League of Assassins to the man who killed his best friend, who killed Sara AND more than 500 innocent Starling city citizens - A really crappy decision and proof of his short sightedness and desperation but by that point he was putting saving Starling City ahead of anyone else's needs including his own need to keep living so hard to label as selfish


    Lets not Forget Oliver Queen denying justice for Saraís death. Cause thatís not selfish at all right?
    That last one is tied up with the deal he made with Malcolm to stop Ra's from killing everyone in Starling.


    Some of these accusations will undoubtedly be seen as unfair and even ridiculous, but so are the accusations against Laurel IMHO, at least when they are couched in such strong condemnatory language as her more ardent detractors like to use. As @Dagenspear noted, there has to be some measure of equality when it comes to critiquing characters for their actions, otherwise the criticism comes off as unfair and one-sided.
    So does that mean an admittal that the pretty much universal condemnation of nearly everything Felicity does on this sight is unfair and one-sides? I fill the vacuum of criticism against Laurel on this site. There is not a vacuum with the other characters and in the cases where there is an assertion of their actions being the same, I have been happy to explain where I see the differences.

  15. #60
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Thank you. It's strange. A comment once was made by BkWurm about how the reason Sara didn't tell her family that she was alive was because she didn't want them to judge her or something, which is a selfish reason. Then she turns around and trashes Laurel for not telling Quentin about Sara's death and calling it selfish because she didn't wanna deal with the fallout.
    No, I said that Sara was ashamed of her actions- she wasn't worried about if her family condemned her, she condemned herself, she just thought since they already thought she was dead, them thinking that would be kinder to them than telling them well your daughter is technically alive but the girl you know is dead replaced by an assassin.

    Laurel might have reasoned too that she was being kinder about not telling her father about Sara but I also argued that Sara had the right to keep her secrets about herself but Laurel was keeping a secret that wasn't hers to keep, that knowing about Sara's death was equally as much Quentin's right as it was Laurel's or Dinah's or Wildcat's. Anyone can disagree with what I think, but no, I don't see Sara's secret keeping about herself and Laurel's secret keeping about Sara being dead as the same thing or for the same reasons.

    The statement that was made just recently about how Oliver has faced repercussions for his actions is another example. BkWurm said that in the situation where Laurel was saved by Tommy that Laurel didn't face the consequences of that even though she went into depression and alcoholism partially because of it, but Tommy faced the consequences of it by dying, but Oliver's family and those he loves being killed or taken hostage or hurt because of his decisions is Oliver facing the consequences? How is it that Laurel doesn't face the consequences, but Oliver does for almost exactly the same situations? I don't understand it.
    Well you are miss combing about three separate posts and arguments. I said about Laurel that she didn't suffer the consequence of her specific action of not leaving CNRI after everyone told her to as much as Tommy suffered for it. Agree or disagree, but quote me right please. I'd agree that Moira suffered more from the fallout of Oliver's friendship falling apart with Slade but then I don't see how anything Oliver could have done would have stopped Slade from going mirikuru mad and unjustly blaming Oliver for Shado's death. So while Oliver having history with Slade led to Moira's death, it's only a byproduct of a convoluted plot hatched by Slade, not a direct consequence for a choice Oliver made.

    I have no doubt that Laurel suffered over Tommy's death, but that was never the issue.

    I've also said that Laurel doesn't pay for her bad choices the same way that Oliver does, that he suffers more losses and has had to give up more and yeah, I think that is true and the closest parallel between Oliver and Laurel is use of the pit but Oliver was only allowed to use it since he was handing over his life to Ra's not to mention that Thea was only stabbed because Ra's was trying to force him to give in. So more suffering, more consequences. Sara was not dead because of anything Laurel did nor did Laurel have to sacrifice anything to bring Sara back. Their may be emotional wear but she was not risking anything in her life or being faced with a price she was going to have to pay personally. And even if the only solution to solving a soulless Sara had been to put her down, the only thing Laurel would have lost was the dream of a dead sister being brought back to life, thus bringing everything back to status quo.

    Laurel not only did not have to pay a personal price for bringing back Sara, she was gifted the bonus of Oliver now deciding to be a better friend. Laurel gained from using the pit without there ever being a condition placed on her to use it.

    Now it makes sense to me for the writers to spend more time and attention fleshing out Oliver's journey, it's his show so I'm sure that has a lot to do with why the show skates of the consequences so often for Laurel.
    Last edited by BkWurm1; 11-10-2015 at 10:33 PM.

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