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  • 10 - Restored My Faith In This Series

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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carmine-Infantino View Post
    Oh Haggard01,I can feel your pain. I'm chewing on my lower lip as I type this. The problem I have is Arrow jumped the shark (IMHO) last year, and I can no longer take anything about the show serious. It's cute that you think it isn't already the Felicity show when it clearly has been for some time. So I say if they are going to do clownish things like with the crane, then just go for it no half measures. Send in the drones, don't bother they're here.
    No I'm actually well aware that Felicity has overtaken the show besides the rare moments we have of flashbacks and other characters. I at times try not to think about it to much for my own mental sanity purposes.

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDevil View Post
    Let's give Felicity a cybersuit she can wear while in the Arrowcave that controls a remote drone/avatar out in the field where Oliver and Diggle are actually nothing more than backup/bodyguards for this expensive piece of technological equipment.
    They would have to be the biggest morons on earth to do something that stupid. What's a scary thought is while they might actually do that I'm thankful DC is keeping them at bay in certain cases.

  2. #77
    Posting Pro DoubleDevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haggard01 View Post
    No I'm actually well aware that Felicity has overtaken the show besides the rare moments we have of flashbacks and other characters. I at times try not to think about it to much for my own mental sanity purposes.



    They would have to be the biggest morons on earth to do something that stupid. What's a scary thought is while they might actually do that I'm thankful DC is keeping them at bay in certain cases.
    But that's how they'll still be able to call it the "Arrow" and not "Felicity Smoak & Sub-Par Acquaintances", the drone/avatar would be the Arrow.

  3. #78
    Site Groupie Shelby Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDevil View Post
    Let's give Felicity a cybersuit she can wear while in the Arrowcave that controls a remote drone/avatar out in the field where Oliver and Diggle are actually nothing more than backup/bodyguards for this expensive piece of technological equipment. ("Oops... Batteries went dead. Diggle, give me a hand getting this back to the Arrowcave so Felicity can charge it up again." "But Oliver, the criminals are getting away!" "Not to worry, Felicity will catch them next time we come out to play.")


    Quote Originally Posted by Haggard01 View Post
    No I'm actually well aware that Felicity has overtaken the show besides the rare moments we have of flashbacks and other characters. I at times try not to think about it to much for my own mental sanity purposes.
    Denial and minimization can be perfectly good and useful psychological defense mechanisms sometimes. I myself used "avoidance" this past week....

  4. #79
    Forum Whiz Carmine-Infantino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDevil View Post
    Let's give Felicity a cybersuit she can wear while in the Arrowcave that controls a remote drone/avatar out in the field where Oliver and Diggle are actually nothing more than backup/bodyguards for this expensive piece of technological equipment. ("Oops... Batteries went dead. Diggle, give me a hand getting this back to the Arrowcave so Felicity can charge it up again." "But Oliver, the criminals are getting away!" "Not to worry, Felicity will catch them next time we come out to play.")
    Exactly right! This is exactly where the show is headed.

  5. #80
    Site Groupie Shelby Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carmine-Infantino View Post
    Oh Haggard01,I can feel your pain. I'm chewing on my lower lip as I type this. The problem I have is Arrow jumped the shark (IMHO) last year, and I can no longer take anything about the show serious. It's cute that you think it isn't already the Felicity show when it clearly has been for some time. So I say if they are going to do clownish things like with the crane, then just go for it no half measures. Send in the drones, don't bother they're here.
    By the way, thanks a lot, bud! Now I can't get that stupid "Send in the Clowns" song out of my head I ask (or rather, whine): was that really necessary? You've already tortured Haggard01, were more casualties really necessary?


    ( )

  6. #81
    Forum Whiz Carmine-Infantino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Kent View Post
    By the way, thanks a lot, bud! Now I can't get that stupid "Send in the Clowns" song out of my head I ask (or rather, whine): was that really necessary? You've already tortured Haggard01, were more casualties really necessary?


    ( )
    Clown songs! Why did it have to be clown songs.

  7. #82
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    When I look back at season one, I don't feel that the presence or addition of Felicity changed anything about Oliver's mission, at least not anything that Diggle hadn't changed. Since Diggle joined TWELVE episodes before Felicity, I'd say that it was his benevolent influence and hero pep talks that made Oliver change his attitude towards his own goals/mission. So, in my eyes Diggle has been much for important for the man Oliver is now than Felicity, at least until the writers started to transfer most of Diggle's functions to Felicity in order to make her look more important.

    In my eyes Felicity's main function in these early episodes was always to provide computer tech, and help the plot flow smoothly from A to B with her investigative skills. I also seem to recall that in interviews Felicity's addition is often described as a way to bring levity to the "Arrowcave" team, which is pretty far from the important attitude or mind-changing role that you attribute to her. But I'm sure that I view her differently from her hardcore fans, who obviously consider her a very important person, to the team, to Oliver and to the show.
    I would never minimalize what Diggle means to Oliver's development. He deserves loads of credit and had a huge influence over Oliver and likely can even be credited with why Oliver was open to suggestions from Felicity later. I don't think he could have gotten to the right mindset on his own.

    I do think that Felicity was also an influence. After she decided to help, she very openly expressed worry about who he was killing which led to a confrontation and Felicity walking off only for them to ask her to return and Oliver listened and took a bit more care it seemed or at least awareness of who and who he would not shoot. Felicity has always been a greyer character than I think she's credited with. She accepted the killing but seemed to put the "when necessary" clause down in writing. I say it that way because I don't think Oliver considered what he was doing as ever killing when unnecessary but I think he thought harder and longer about it after Felicity pointed out his target's family connections.

    Also when they went and brought Oliver back from the island, Felicity influenced how he saw himself in the mask. Oliver was convinced taking it up again would be dishonoring Tommy's memory (for him to be a killer) but Felicity believed he could be a hero and do it without the killing. It was the start of the "find another way" tradition.

    I bring it up not because I'm claiming that Felicity was the only or biggest influence, I don't think so, but just that she did though have an influence over who he became.

    I think the level of her importance to the show is more on a meta level since an awful lot of critic have said that Arrow needed a relief from the relentless gloom and yeah, Felicity's character provided some lightness which in turn mitigated the darkness which in turn may have kept people tuning in long enough to fall in love with the show. I can give personal testimony to that.

    There was a recent report that said in a study that it took viewers well past the halfway point of the first season before Arrow hooked viewers so again, I'm not saying Felicity is what saved the show, just the interjection of a lighter tone at times provided that balance that makes it easier to appreciate the darker and gritty moments without them becoming overwhelming.

    If you don't belong to the part of the fandom who are anti-campaigning against the "Wack Canary", cutting out her face from Team Arrow pics and cyber bullying KC on her own TL, you might not understand this. The rest of us only have to spend some time on twitter and tumblr to see the very raw hate against anything that has to do with Laurel, Black Canary and Katie Cassidy, all in the name of the Holy Trinity. THAT is why the OTA rhetoric is so off-putting to many of us.
    Never heard the tem Wack Canary before. And no one should be bullying the actors. That's not fair. People might for whatever reason feel the need to vent on Twittter or Tumblr but adding hashtags or "at" directing hate back at the real people crosses lines and is petty and mean at the very least.

    With all due respect, I sometimes feel you're harshly criticizing one character whose character portrayal seems to bother you in a major way, while going to extreme lengths to defend the character portrayal of another, often down to minute details.

    Just recently you completed a series of posts where you described in detail everything that you consider is wrong with Laurel. That is your prerogative, of course (although I have the impression that you have already said many of these things in earlier posts!). However, when it comes to Felicity criticism, you seem to think that she is a flawless, well-written fictional character, and that her EVERY action is right, and justified. This means that those of us who have problems with her character portrayal are basically wrong, because things are not at all as we see them. I think that you would have found such an attitude towards your numerous posts in the Laurel Lance thread a tad annoying.
    Just to be clear, the majority of response to my posts in the past about the faults I perceived with Laurel were met with a response that said I was wrong and that things were not as I saw them. That is the norm of which I post in.

    But I am willing to apologize about my recent post in the Laurel section . I honestly compiled a list of Laurel's actions without judging them bad or good, just hasty or emotionally made. I didn't intend to run down a history of complaints about her. I actually during that post was patting myself on the back for not saying anything mean about her. Obviously I didn't do the bang up job I had thought I was doing. So I will try harder in the future to read my posts with a more critical eye because is sparked a number of conversations that I had no intention of creating. (and to which I was incapable of NOT responding to which only muddied the original post further)

    I feel like I've said my piece about Laurel so only will dig stuff up if someone else brings something up again or new stuff. I do try hard though to not talk about actor's skills. Rip on the characters, not the actors. Acting is so very objective and I've been down that road before and it accomplishes nothing. So unless it's something like laughing at poor SA for biting his tongue and therefore in this episode having enunciation issues, I work hard not to even comment on acting. In some cases, VERY hard. And I know I bristle when other's do it about EBR because I'm biting my tongue so very hard, that it feels unfair, even if I'm the one setting my own standards.


    I think there have been such moments, even if you don't acknowledge them. Furthermore, if the writers spend more time on propping a version of the team that ceased to exist in mid-season two they don't have much opportunity to show how the new team is forged or cemented. Anyway, for those of us who don't see the O/F/D relationship as SO special, there is no problem following and appreciating the new team working together. For example, I thought the scene where Ollie/Green Arrow shoots a line, and Laurel/BC descends was pretty awesome, and a nice nod to the GA/BC crime fighting relationship in the comics.
    I'm thinking we are talking about different things. I mean team cementing moments like character conflicts that come to a verbal resolution and acknowledgment. I feel like the we haven't had those character moments with Laurel and Thea. It feels like they are setting some up with Thea with her needing to learn to control the bloodlust but there's been no resolution between her and Oliver or even her and the rest of the team. No, we all have your back or I'm here for you or we believe in you. That kind of stuff. Chances are that it is coming, but it hasn't come yet.

    There have been lots of great stunts, but that doesn't emotionally satisfy me or convince me that the new make up the team has really jelled yet to the extent I desire to see.


    TBH, as @JDBentz also said, I think your posts about Laurel and Felicity would be more convincing if you admitted that they reflect a strong bias, rather than to hide that bias under a cloak of objectivity, or referring to your own idiosyncratic interpretations of various episodes and storylines as irrefutable facts.
    I've always tried to make certain that I have express my viewpoints as opinion and I apologize for any times I have not done so or not made it clear enough. Stating opinion as fact is a huge pet peeve of mine.

    As for acknowledging bias, isn't that pointless? Aren't our likes and dislikes a statement of our biases at least in the sense of letting other's know what we think? I feel like that is asking for a list of what I like and hate so that then anything I say on any of those matters could then be dismissed as just bias. I'm not interested in commenting equally on all aspects of the show. The FB so far have bored me so I ignore them. I love Quentin but he's being a dumb ass so I've not been dwelling on him. Nyssa is awesome so that's a given I don't feel the need to detail.

    If I think something is worth saying, then judge what I say as I say it. Everyone is going to do that anyway. Would my complaints about Laurel be more credible if I hated Felicity? If so, why?

    It's not that Laurel HAS all those flaws and faults, and you're just bringing them to the light, nor is it a fact that Felicity is an almost flawless and well-written character. I think your criticism of Laurel would be more convincing if you could admit that the writers could have done things better when it comes to BOTH characters
    I've never claimed that Felicity is a perfectly written character with no flaws. I complained heavily about the writing that put Felicity on Palmer Island, turning her into a pod version of herself at times. I've also called how CEO is being handled as ridiculous. But I see no reason that I should equally complain about characters. EVERYONE else is complaining about Felicity. I feel no compunction to join in a chorus for the sake of appearing neutral when I've made no claims of neutrality and really, I haven't bumped into any neutral parties on the site, and why would I?

    I like certain characters and don't others, just like everybody else. I comment on what I think is important to me to comment on. I'm not pretending to be an uninterested party. And again, really, nobody here is. Everyone has their likes and dislikes and for the most part, I am on the opposite spectrum and since I am pretty much the only one defending Felicity, I don't see the need to join in on complaining about things she does that aren't perfect.

    Usually I speak up only if I vehemently disagree about what's being said or want to offer a different perspective. I rarely even speak of all the positives I see with Felicity unless it's relevant to the specific discussion. And I really think that if anyone but Felicity had slid on Ray's suit, the outcry of impossibility wouldn't have occurred. Also, in my defense of her being the CEO, it's always been in contrast to the ones that say it's impossible, not that it's probable outside of TV.

    .

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haggard01 View Post
    Please do not give the showrunners any more ideas. It was bad enough with the crane. If they did something like that they might as well rename the show Felicity Smoak and friends. Gah now you've got that nightmare stuck in my head.
    It has become Felicity and friends, and they may as well rename it.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDevil View Post
    Let's give Felicity a cybersuit she can wear while in the Arrowcave that controls a remote drone/avatar out in the field where Oliver and Diggle are actually nothing more than backup/bodyguards for this expensive piece of technological equipment. ("Oops... Batteries went dead. Diggle, give me a hand getting this back to the Arrowcave so Felicity can charge it up again." "But Oliver, the criminals are getting away!" "Not to worry, Felicity will catch them next time we come out to play.")
    I fear it will be worse than that. Felicity will get her pal Cisco to upgrade Ollies suit and the Digneto helmet to allow her to auto control them both from afar. That way she can actually control their every action, and they can be put further in the background as useless props.

  10. #85
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    Thanks for the long reply and I'm sorry if I sounded to harsh! I still have a problem with the incorporation of fanon notions on the show (which was my original complaint). I have now had the chance to watch the show, and it struck me how forced these "Original Gangsters", "OTA" etc. references were. The way Emily Bett-Rickards rehearsed those lines it gave me the impression that she herself realized how gratuitous and "fan service-y" they were. They just didn't sound natural, and I think a team of TV writers have sunk pretty low when they feel forced to remove the fourth wall and appeal to a certain fanbase in this manner.

    As for actors' performances I usually try to avoid slamming actors, or say that they "suck". However, when it comes to Felicity, I think EBR's somewhat one-note portrayal of Felicity is one of the reasons why I have never really been able to connect with her. Yes, she is perky, sweet and funny, but to me there is no real depth to her portrayal of Felicity, and sometimes the Felicity persona seems forced, as if EBR is constantly thinking about how to say her lines, rather than just "being" Felicity and trying to get under her skin. I'm not saying that she is a poor actress, but I do think that she is several levels below actresses like Susanna Thompson, or even Katrina Law, who are able to add multiple layers to their portrayal of Moira and Nyssa, both in their individual scenes and in their overall character portrayal.

  11. #86
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    My impression is that, as far as the bulk of S1 is concerned, Ollie and Diggle formed "Team Arrow" at the start. It was basically the two of them, with Felicity providing occasional support during Ollie's 'Year One' as the Hood. Realistically, it was only after EBR was raised to recurring then regular cast status could we logically state that Felicity had become "more" important to the team and the series after this.

    I think the writers' implications that it was always the three of them is a bit of an after-the-fact retcon motivated by fan service, in the way that they changed Ollie's original meeting with Felicity to his Queen Ent. visit on his ill-advised "first" return to SC. It would be more accurate to say that the team became the three of them, but the team began as Ollie and Diggle. Heck, Diggle was Team Oliver Queen before it was ever Team Arrow.

    For the record, I think trying to "clique"-ify who's more or less worthy to be part of Team Arrow due to time served is more a product of online Arrow fandom skirmishing than anything rooted in character A or B's concrete contributions to the team. Some members were there long, some joined later and as a viewer I don't weigh team members' contributions based only on seniority on the team. By going on this alone, Diggle's advice would always outrank everyone else's because he has been there the longest. There is fan service at play no doubt and it also has the accidental or intentional effect of sidelining the team freshmen: Laurel (actually a sophomore now) and Thea, just because they weren't there back then etc. They've haven't been with the team as long, so their contributions are ... somehow worth less too? Makes no sense. I'll leave it at that.

    As for the Sara resurrection plot, we may be surprised. Maybe it'll turn out well. The presence of Nyssa and Malcolm gives me some hope.

    But if we're not amazed, and it turns out to be a messy LOT stage-setting subplot wedged into Arrow with a tenuous connection to Arrow, it would be absurd to hold Laurel responsible for being saddled with a LOT prequel plot the writers themselves gave to her. They were going to have to bring Sara back to life, so even if they had Ollie or Felicity come up with the befuddling scheme to risk messing with powers beyond their ken, the problem with this particular arc (it being an LOT prequel plot wedged into Arrow) would still be there -- Laurel or not.

    TPTB had to task someone with bringing Sara alive, out of necessity re: LOT and they assigned Laurel and Thea to take the road trip. My concern would be that Laurel again will face an unfair amount of blowback if a wonky subplot doesn't pan out well in Arrow. If it turns out to be the "best story arc of S4" -- is Thea going to get the credit for it because fans will retcon internally that it was miraculously Thea's brilliant scheme all along and can't accept that Laurel should get any credit?

    Sara's resurrection should contribute to Arrow as a show, not take away from it or hurt it. As a viewer, this is my bottom line, the only one that matters to me. If it does becomes a mess, any fallout should land where it belongs: LOT and the writers' need to launch the new show. I'm not saying they can't or shouldn't launch LOT via Arrow and Flash, because they should benefit from a Flarrow-verse connection.

    All I'm asking is they do it smartly, with consideration to how it might impact the actual shows they depend on.

    (On a less serious note, I hoped that Double Down would high-tail it to Central City ASAP. The more gimmicky the metapower, the more I wish SC had no metahumans. Yes, Flash, you may keep Boomerang too. )

  12. #87
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    My impression is that, as far as the bulk of S1 is concerned, Ollie and Diggle formed "Team Arrow" at the start. It was basically the two of them, with Felicity providing occasional support during Ollie's 'Year One' as the Hood. Realistically, it was only after EBR was raised to recurring then regular cast status could we logically state that Felicity had become "more" important to the team and the series after this.

    I think the writers' implications that it was always the three of them is a bit of an after-the-fact retcon motivated by fan service, in the way that they changed Ollie's original meeting with Felicity to his Queen Ent. visit on his ill-advised "first" return to SC. It would be more accurate to say that the team became the three of them, but the team began as Ollie and Diggle. Heck, Diggle was Team Oliver Queen before it was ever Team Arrow.
    My impression always was that the partnership between Oliver and Diggle was good and solid but not as organized as it could be and that the addition of Felicity is what tightened the system up. From a visual standpoint, it was after the addition of Felicity that the lair started looking more "professional" rather than start up or fly by night.

    For the record, I think trying to "clique"-ify who's more or less worthy to be part of Team Arrow due to time served is more a product of online Arrow fandom skirmishing than anything rooted in character A or B's concrete contributions to the team. Some members were there long, some joined later and as a viewer I don't weigh team members' contributions based only on seniority on the team There is fan service at play no doubt and it also has the accidental or intentional effect of sidelining the team freshmen: Laurel (actually a sophomore now) and Thea, just because they weren't there back then etc. They've haven't been with the team as long, so their contributions are ... somehow worth less too? Makes no sense. I'll leave it at that.
    I see it from the other side, that the players with more experience are the ones who's knowledge and opinion so often in season three were being sidelined and now don't hold any more weight than anyone else's. I did though really appreciate that Diggle seemed to be sort of in charge of tactical decisions with Laurel and Thea even if no one was actually leader.


    As for the Sara resurrection plot, we may be surprised. Maybe it'll turn out well. The presence of Nyssa and Malcolm gives me some hope.
    I expect the rest of the story arc to turn out good. [SPOILER] Crazy Sara and Family angst in the next episode (PB always knocks it out of the park) Constantine in the one after that followed by Sara, Laurel and Thea in the field on their own op that implodes. [/SPOILER] I'm looking forward to every bit. Just curse the writers for bringing Sara back in the least sensible way.

  13. #88
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    Preception vs reality

    Felicity and Olicity Echo chamber and its never ending cycle.

    Felicity becomes a regular and is an automatic fan favorite, Olicity becomes the automatic fan desired ship.

    Felicity and Olicity fans are loud, and influence all online media regarding arrow, they dominate articles, interviews, questions ask to the cast.

    Felicity and Olicity fans are very protective of Felicity and Olicity, some of them take it to the extreme.

    -------------

    Those who are not enamored with Felicity as her fans are, talk about how upset they are, they talk about it in article comment sections, bash Felicity and Olicity focused interviews.

    Felicity and Olicity haters are very loud about their hatred for Felicity and Olicity, some take it to the extreme.

    -------------------

    Meanwhile in reality the normal viewer does not care, Felicity and Olicity are only a part of the show. What you really have are two groups yelling at each other that can't see past their own love and hatred. Stuck in a bubble forever talking about the same thing, ignoring all the other events on the show in order prove their love or dislike to be right and just.

    --------------

    This is far from being the Olicity or Felicity show, its the Oliver Queen show, but talking Felicity and Olicity is so much more controversial.

    Felicity and Laurel are 5 minutes behind each other this season in screen time.

    Laurel has her sister reviving arc and team arrow.

    Felicity has CEO arc and team arrow.

    There is one difference though, the heavy lead Oliver Queen is in love and dating Felicity smoak.

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