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  • 10 - Restored My Faith In This Series

    7 33.33%
  • 9

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  • 8

    1 4.76%
  • 7

    5 23.81%
  • 6

    4 19.05%
  • 5

    2 9.52%
  • 4

    1 4.76%
  • 3

    1 4.76%
  • 2

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  • 1 - Whats Dead Should Be Left Dead

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  1. #46
    Forum Whiz DoubleDevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    Take for example Diggle talking to Laurel about HIVE. It made sense why Dig was reluctant to tell Oliver and I could even understand why he wouldn't want to tell something t Felicity he wasn't comfortable with her sharing with Oliver but do you realize that Felicity didn't even get a smile from Diggle until this third episode? She comes back, has been helping, but hasn't seen her dear friend in five months, the one that the day before she left they'd "died" in each other's arms and Diggle doesn't speak to her or give her a hug or a smile or a I've missed you? In the second episode he even leaves her hanging when she tries to get a high five. And he looks annoyed. She keeps trying to be her same positive cheerful self and he ignores her at all time except for mission related stuff.

    Of course we're going to be upset that Felicity can't even get a friendly look but Laurel is let in on a secrecy Digs been keeping from his partners for two years. It's perfectly right that he'd tell Laurel but why also neglect the relationships that were established originally?

    I was begging even for in show acknowledgement that he was mad at Felicity too, anything to explain what I was seeing on screen that just wasn't making sense. He can be mad or not feeling connected but that's something I as a viewer need acknowledged because it deviates from what we last knew.
    I guess now you understand how non-olicity shippers feel about season 3. Alone her leaving with Oliver at the end of season 3 leaving Diggle with the entire burden of building and running a vigilante team with two relatively new recruits while worrying about a wife (who Oliver kidnapped) and child at home was more than enough reason for me to show resentment to both Oliver and Felicity upon their return, I didn't need more to explain things. Whether Diggle knew about Felicity's assistance or not is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned, O+F left D hanging and that more than justifies a couple of episodes of resentful glances in my book.
    Last edited by DoubleDevil; 10-23-2015 at 03:55 PM.

  2. #47
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    A cry went up that the OTA dynamic was extremely missed. Ratings did start to go down. Reviews became more critical. What I'd loved about the show was missing for a good chunk of time in the back half of season two. The turn around came finally just a few episodes before the end of the season. Oliver said it started with the three of them and it was time to get back to that. It was like a message straight from TPTB, that yes, they'd heard us!
    Extremelly missed by who? I was on several discussion forums during that period, and I didn't see that many people complaining about the lack of OTA dynamic. In fact, my impression was that most non-shippers were focusing on the Mirakuru plot, and enjoying what was going on. So, I think it is prudent not to generalize and imagine that the audience at large thinks that Felicity (because I think it's really the centrality of Felicity that is at stake here!) and her relationship with Oliver and Diggle is the absolute centerpiece if the show. Furthermore, as far as I can recall, Oliver was in a serious romantic relationship with SARA during these episodes, so maybe many fans focused on that relationship and found it important, rather than his relationship with Felicity.

    As for Oliver's throw away line that "it started out with the three of us", the supreme irony is that it did NOT AT ALL start out with the three of them, and if the writers didn't know that when they wrote those lines they are untalented hacks with amnesia, who don't know the rudimentary facts of their own storyline, or simply pandering to the Olicity fandom! Of course, the OTA fans seem to suffer from some kind of self-induceed amnesia themselves, either become they ignore everything that happened in season one before Felicity was introduced, or because of some need to elevate Felicity and make her seem more important than she really was/is. So, let's look at the show's own history and see if it really "started out with the three of us":

    1. In episodes one to three Oliver was carrying out his mission all by his lonesome.

    2. In episode three Oliver was forced to reveal his identity to Diggle, although he might have pondered making him his partner from the very beginning. Diggle then agreed to become his partner, not his sidekick. During this time Oliver/the Hood was also collaborating with LAUREL, who helped him solve several cases, although he didn't reveal his identity to her. Of course, Olicity fans often neglect the Laurel/Oliver collaboration in their endeavors to erase her importance and elevate their own girl. However, for those of us who still consider Laurel to be an important person in Oliver's life (despite all the retconning and marginalization that this relationship has been subjected to in order to implement and serve Olicity), this shows that LAUREL was Oliver's unknowing partner when Miss Felicity Smoak was only someone that Ollie went to for information.

    3. Felicity didn't join the team until episode 1X15, that is, long after Diggle became Oliver's partner. So, Diggle and Oliver were a team for TWELVE episodes before Felicity learned about Oliver's secret and became a member of the team. Now, I know that the Felicity/Olicity fans come up with all kinds of elaborate explanations/interpretations in order to prove that Felicity should still be considered as some kind of "originary" member, but if you look at the show's own history these claims are simply inaccurate.

    So, when the writers gave Oliver that line, they were either writing through their asses (pardon my French!) or being a little cheeky...they knew that the OTA fans were dying for a little something that would validate their fan created "Original Team", so they threw them this little bone. The interesting thing is is that Laurel, who had been excluded from the Oliver/Felicity/Diggle clique, was actually the one who saved Oliver's life in this episode, and NOT the members of the hallowed "Original Trio". So, if Laurel had listened to Oliver and let the members of the "Original Trio" go off on their own, he would not have been alive today. Of course, that is something that is never mentioned when oliciters triumphantly refer to this line as the writers' alleged validation of the fan-created OTA.

    You make it sound as if good reviews and good ratings are somehow dependent on the presence of Diggle, Felicity and Oliver as a team, or of Olicity as the show's main romance. There is no proof whatsoever that there is any correlation between the amount of OTA interaction/storylines/scenes (or the presence of Olicity romantic scenes) and good reviews/ratings. An episode will get good reviews if it is well-written and well-acted, and many Olicity-heavy episodes haven't gotten good reviews/ratings at all.

    For example, in season three some of the most well-received episodes were episodes where Oliver was missing, and the WHOLE team, including Laurel and Roy, were fighting crime together. On the other hand, both "The Fallen" and the season finale were panned by many non-shipper viewers, despite the Olicity sex and Felicity being heroic flying the ATOM suit.

    Again, I'm sorry if I sound belligerent, but I'm so tired of the oliciter fandom touting their fan created OTA and the Olicity romance as some kind of guarantee of quality or as audience magnets, while any episode that focuses on Laurel or the Lances are denounced as critical and commercial failures. That is simply not true, and a quick look at the ratings for seasons two and three will prove this. Most casual viewers are not as fixated on a specific character/ship/constellation of the team as the Felicity or Laurel factions are...so if an episode is good, they will enjoy it regardless of which character or set of characters happen to be in focus.

    This means that the "cry that went up" mainly came from the Felicity fans and Olicity shippers, and not from the general fandom. The proof of this is that NO other fans except Olicity shippers talk about the OTA as if it were an existing and vital component of the show. The peeps at CW who use the term in their marketing do it for commercial reasons...they want to creare buzz and excitement, and since they know that O/F shippers are the most online active, they use it as a bait.

    When you say that "the writers heard us", I presume you mean Felicity's references to OTA, and the scenes with Oliver/Diggle/Felicity? Do you know what one non-shipper wrote about the OTA references? He wrote that he felt that the writers were giving him the middle-finger, because they should be aware that OTA, Og3 and all the other terms are perceived as code for "we don't want Laurel" or "we want the producers to make the show about Felicity, Olicity and OTA".

    As a Laurel fan I have my wishes and preferences as well, but I actually don't think that it's a producers/writer's job to give the members of a certain fanbase what they want, especially since this fanbase does not represent the fandom or the viewership at large (despite their heavy social media presence). If they focus on writing good storylines for ALL characters, rather than throwing in gratuitous references to a fandom concept, they will also satisfy ALL fans/viewers, rather than a certain shipper fanbase. Besides, last week's episode didn't get very good ratings, despite all the OTA and Felicity badassery, so maybe the "Arrow" producers should reconsider their priorities a bit.

    And the show had a fantastic final run of episodes in season two. Then in season three they put this strain between Oliver and Felicity and really also between Felicity and Diggle since he seemed to pick Team Oliver and she was left to have to go to Central City to find a friend to talk to.

    I'm sure there are those that use OTA as a code for anti Laurel but the out cry isn't about keeping others off the team, the out cry is to not neglect the relationships that were established during that year when it's was just Oliver, Diggle, and Felicity as partners.
    Well, since Oliver and Diggle were the REAL Original Team, maybe those of us who liked THAT constellation should start spamming the producers and writers demanding that Oliver and Diggle should get more scenes and screen time together, without Felicity's presence? I personally thought the Diggle/Oliver interaction was more interesting, mature and nuanced than the scenes where Felicity is present, so I guess I should be treating Felicity as an imposter, whose presence intrudes on MY conception of the Original Team, namely Oliver and Diggle?

    As for the show having a fantastic run in the end of season two, I think that this is really a matter of opinion. I liked many parts of season two, but the Diggle/Felicity/Oliver interaction didn't stand out as anything special in comparison to many other storylines and scenes, for example the Sara/Laurel interaction. The Felicity-centric episode in season three didn't get very good reviews, and it is generally considered a weak episode by non-shipper fans.

    So, the mere presence of Felicity, or the focus on a constellation that is VERY important to a certain shipper fanbase doesn't automatically make an episode good or enjoyable for the general viewer (or for the professional reviewers, for that matter). If some episodes in season two were perceived as good it's not just because they featured a specific set of characters. The proof of this is that there are MANY online fans who now look back at season one with nostalgia and regard it as the best season, despite the fact that Oliver/Diggle/Felicity were only a team during the latter half, and where the main romance was Lauriver. So, what makes an episode or a season good is clearly a matter of opinion.

    I guess I don't share your view of the foundational importance of a team that only existed during a limited period of the show. I don't feel that there is anything special about Diggle, Oliver and Felicity, and I enjoy seeing more characters interacting and participating on the team. In fact, I think it would be detrimental to the team atmosphere if the writers singled out Oliver/Felicity/Diggle as more "special" and "essential" than Thea and Laurel. First of all it reeks of a kind of high school "clique" mentality, and secondly it is a disservice to characters who are just as important to Ollie/Green Arrow as Felicity and Diggle, both because of their long history on the show, and because of their comic book history.

    Furthermore, I happen to think that both Laurel and Thea are more interesting than Felicity as characters, and that both Willa and Katie are more versatile and dynamic as actors than the rather one-dimensional Emily Bett-Rickards. So, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about the importance and centrality of the so-called "Original Trio".
    Last edited by evaba; 10-23-2015 at 04:32 PM.

  3. #48
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    evaba that was a heck of a post. +1

  4. #49
    Site Groupie SteelyGal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dreamsofnever View Post
    Well said, Evaba! And totally agree, Dagenspear. At this point, if the writers and fans are so in love with the "Original Team Arrow' concept, then I wish they would give Laurel and Thea the chance to head elsewhere. Whether to the Flash/Central City or to join the Legends crew....
    ITA

    Quote Originally Posted by Halberdier17 View Post
    If they send Laurel and Thea to another show I wouldn't really have a reason to watch Arrow anymore.

    Maybe they can create a team of Laurel, Thea, Helena and maybe have them meet Barbara Gordon and form "Birds of Prey" create a new Spin-off though CW said no more DC shows currently.
    Sadly, I don't think they are going to let her get her own show. Instead the writers will continue to use her character to prop up other people's storylines and could care less how it might make her character look. Hopefully the writers will surprise me and give Black Canary a storyline that shows her as the hero she is suppose to be.

    But, if Black Canary did get her own show with the right supporting cast, I most likely would stop watching Arrow and tune into that show.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteelyGal View Post
    ITA



    Sadly, I don't think they are going to let her get her own show. Instead the writers will continue to use her character to prop up other people's storylines and could care less how it might make her character look. Hopefully the writers will surprise me and give Black Canary a storyline that shows her as the hero she is suppose to be.

    But, if Black Canary did get her own show with the right supporting cast, I most likely would stop watching Arrow and tune into that show.
    I totally agree with you. But a fangirl can dream.

    And Evaba, yet another insightful and well written post! Honestly, what I found really special about season one was Oliver reconnecting with his loved ones. His relationship with Thea, Moira, Tommy and yes, Laurel were the most compelling. The story of a man who returned changed and was trying to make up for past sins as well as coping with loved ones who'd been changed by the loss-that was the story that I fell in love with. It's sad that as of this season, the only person Oliver seems to care about is Felicity. And the writers seem to think that the fans want to see the "Original Team Arrow" (which, as already discussed, isn't even factual)

    I hope that one of the themes this season is of the ENTIRE team learning to function as a team, but it seems the producers would rather cater to certain segments of the fanbase and continue to pretend that some members of the team matter more than others.

  6. #51
    Forum Whiz Carmine-Infantino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evaba View Post
    Extremelly missed by who? I was on several discussion forums during that period, and I didn't see that many people complaining about the lack of OTA dynamic. In fact, my impression was that most non-shippers were focusing on the Mirakuru plot, and enjoying what was going on. So, I think it is prudent not to generalize and imagine that the audience at large thinks that Felicity (because I think it's really the centrality of Felicity that is at stake here!) and her relationship with Oliver and Diggle is the absolute centerpiece if the show. Furthermore, as far as I can recall, Oliver was in a serious romantic relationship with SARA during these episodes, so maybe many fans focused on that relationship and found it important, rather than his relationship with Felicity.

    As for Oliver's throw away line that "it started out with the three of us", the supreme irony is that it did NOT AT ALL start out with the three of them, and if the writers didn't know that when they wrote those lines they are untalented hacks with amnesia, who don't know the rudimentary facts of their own storyline, or simply pandering to the Olicity fandom! Of course, the OTA fans seem to suffer from some kind of self-induceed amnesia themselves, either become they ignore everything that happened in season one before Felicity was introduced, or because of some need to elevate Felicity and make her seem more important than she really was/is. So, let's look at the show's own history and see if it really "started out with the three of us":

    1. In episodes one to three Oliver was carrying out his mission all by his lonesome.

    2. In episode three Oliver was forced to reveal his identity to Diggle, although he might have pondered making him his partner from the very beginning. Diggle then agreed to become his partner, not his sidekick. During this time Oliver/the Hood was also collaborating with LAUREL, who helped him solve several cases, although he didn't reveal his identity to her. Of course, Olicity fans often neglect the Laurel/Oliver collaboration in their endeavors to erase her importance and elevate their own girl. However, for those of us who still consider Laurel to be an important person in Oliver's life (despite all the retconning and marginalization that this relationship has been subjected to in order to implement and serve Olicity), this shows that LAUREL was Oliver's unknowing partner when Miss Felicity Smoak was only someone that Ollie went to for information.

    3. Felicity didn't join the team until episode 1X15, that is, long after Diggle became Oliver's partner. So, Diggle and Oliver were a team for TWELVE episodes before Felicity learned about Oliver's secret and became a member of the team. Now, I know that the Felicity/Olicity fans come up with all kinds of elaborate explanations/interpretations in order to prove that Felicity should still be considered as some kind of "originary" member, but if you look at the show's own history these claims are simply inaccurate.

    So, when the writers gave Oliver that line, they were either writing through their asses (pardon my French!) or being a little cheeky...they knew that the OTA fans were dying for a little something that would validate their fan created "Original Team", so they threw them this little bone. The interesting thing is is that Laurel, who had been excluded from the Oliver/Felicity/Diggle clique, was actually the one who saved Oliver's life in this episode, and NOT the members of the hallowed "Original Trio". So, if Laurel had listened to Oliver and let the members of the "Original Trio" go off on their own, he would not have been alive today. Of course, that is something that is never mentioned when oliciters triumphantly refer to this line as the writers' alleged validation of the fan-created OTA.

    You make it sound as if good reviews and good ratings are somehow dependent on the presence of Diggle, Felicity and Oliver as a team, or of Olicity as the show's main romance. There is no proof whatsoever that there is any correlation between the amount of OTA interaction/storylines/scenes (or the presence of Olicity romantic scenes) and good reviews/ratings. An episode will get good reviews if it is well-written and well-acted, and many Olicity-heavy episodes haven't gotten good reviews/ratings at all.

    For example, in season three some of the most well-received episodes were episodes where Oliver was missing, and the WHOLE team, including Laurel and Roy, were fighting crime together. On the other hand, both "The Fallen" and the season finale were panned by many non-shipper viewers, despite the Olicity sex and Felicity being heroic flying the ATOM suit.

    Again, I'm sorry if I sound belligerent, but I'm so tired of the oliciter fandom touting their fan created OTA and the Olicity romance as some kind of guarantee of quality or as audience magnets, while any episode that focuses on Laurel or the Lances are denounced as critical and commercial failures. That is simply not true, and a quick look at the ratings for seasons two and three will prove this. Most casual viewers are not as fixated on a specific character/ship/constellation of the team as the Felicity or Laurel factions are...so if an episode is good, they will enjoy it regardless of which character or set of characters happen to be in focus.

    This means that the "cry that went up" mainly came from the Felicity fans and Olicity shippers, and not from the general fandom. The proof of this is that NO other fans except Olicity shippers talk about the OTA as if it were an existing and vital component of the show. The peeps at CW who use the term in their marketing do it for commercial reasons...they want to creare buzz and excitement, and since they know that O/F shippers are the most online active, they use it as a bait.

    When you say that "the writers heard us", I presume you mean Felicity's references to OTA, and the scenes with Oliver/Diggle/Felicity? Do you know what one non-shipper wrote about the OTA references? He wrote that he felt that the writers were giving him the middle-finger, because they should be aware that OTA, Og3 and all the other terms are perceived as code for "we don't want Laurel" or "we want the producers to make the show about Felicity, Olicity and OTA".

    As a Laurel fan I have my wishes and preferences as well, but I actually don't think that it's a producers/writer's job to give the members of a certain fanbase what they want, especially since this fanbase does not represent the fandom or the viewership at large (despite their heavy social media presence). If they focus on writing good storylines for ALL characters, rather than throwing in gratuitous references to a fandom concept, they will also satisfy ALL fans/viewers, rather than a certain shipper fanbase. Besides, last week's episode didn't get very good ratings, despite all the OTA and Felicity badassery, so maybe the "Arrow" producers should reconsider their priorities a bit.



    Well, since Oliver and Diggle were the REAL Original Team, maybe those of us who liked THAT constellation should start spamming the producers and writers demanding that Oliver and Diggle should get more scenes and screen time together, without Felicity's presence? I personally thought the Diggle/Oliver interaction was more interesting, mature and nuanced than the scenes where Felicity is present, so I guess I should be treating Felicity as an imposter, whose presence intrudes on MY conception of the Original Team, namely Oliver and Diggle?

    As for the show having a fantastic run in the end of season two, I think that this is really a matter of opinion. I liked many parts of season two, but the Diggle/Felicity/Oliver interaction didn't stand out as anything special in comparison to many other storylines and scenes, for example the Sara/Laurel interaction. The Felicity-centric episode in season three didn't get very good reviews, and it is generally considered a weak episode by non-shipper fans.

    So, the mere presence of Felicity, or the focus on a constellation that is VERY important to a certain shipper fanbase doesn't automatically make an episode good or enjoyable for the general viewer (or for the professional reviewers, for that matter). If some episodes in season two were perceived as good it's not just because they featured a specific set of characters. The proof of this is that there are MANY online fans who now look back at season one with nostalgia and regard it as the best season, despite the fact that Oliver/Diggle/Felicity were only a team during the latter half, and where the main romance was Lauriver. So, what makes an episode or a season good is clearly a matter of opinion.

    I guess I don't share your view of the foundational importance of a team that only existed during a limited period of the show. I don't feel that there is anything special about Diggle, Oliver and Felicity, and I enjoy seeing more characters interacting and participating on the team. In fact, I think it would be detrimental to the team atmosphere if the writers singled out Oliver/Felicity/Diggle as more "special" and "essential" than Thea and Laurel. First of all it reeks of a kind of high school "clique" mentality, and secondly it is a disservice to characters who are just as important to Ollie/Green Arrow as Felicity and Diggle, both because of their long history on the show, and because of their comic book history.

    Furthermore, I happen to think that both Laurel and Thea are more interesting than Felicity as characters, and that both Willa and Katie are more versatile and dynamic as actors than the rather one-dimensional Emily Bett-Rickards. So, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about the importance and centrality of the so-called "Original Trio".
    Missed by who, well me for one. For me the show started it's down hill slide when they started adding all the side kicks. Season 3 had way to many leather clad people hanging out in then quiver cave. B.C. and Speedy should be used as guest stars, only when the store requires them. You seem upset that the writers, producers and the people who own the characters have taken the measure of Laurel and found her lacking. I understand you are team laurel, but that's kind of like being a Cubs fan, a difficult thing to be. As for your chicken or egg argument, who cares??? Oliver, Diggle, Felicity and the writers consider themselves the original team, you should just let this one go. I hated this episode, and not because of felicity or laurel, but because of how they brought Sara back and the way nyssa destroyed the pit. Before you accuse me of being an Olicity fan I am not, I think she works out better on the Flash, maybe they could send her to the Flash and Laurel to legends. Oliver going back to his play boy ways with only Diggle to help him out would be a show I'd watch.

  7. #52
    Forum Whiz DoubleDevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carmine-Infantino View Post
    Missed by who, well me for one. For me the show started it's down hill slide when they started adding all the side kicks. Season 3 had way to many leather clad people hanging out in then quiver cave. B.C. and Speedy should be used as guest stars, only when the store requires them. You seem upset that the writers, producers and the people who own the characters have taken the measure of Laurel and found her lacking. I understand you are team laurel, but that's kind of like being a Cubs fan, a difficult thing to be. As for your chicken or egg argument, who cares??? Oliver, Diggle, Felicity and the writers consider themselves the original team, you should just let this one go. I hated this episode, and not because of felicity or laurel, but because of how they brought Sara back and the way nyssa destroyed the pit. Before you accuse me of being an Olicity fan I am not, I think she works out better on the Flash, maybe they could send her to the Flash and Laurel to legends. Oliver going back to his play boy ways with only Diggle to help him out would be a show I'd watch.
    While I'm not thrilled with watching "Arrow Justice League" and Green Arrow might be a solo artist in the comics I don't see archers as being soloists, they have a need for assistance in doing what they do best. I like Diggle and seeing him and Oliver working together in seasons 1+2 was fine but I saw it as a prelude to what I actually wanted to see later in the series, what kept me tuning in week after week, namely Green Arrow and Black Canary as a team. Now if Black Canary was going to be Laurel Lance, Sara or Mary Sue I could've cared less at the time but that's what I was looking forward to seeing. Did we need to bring in Roy as Arsenal or Thea as Speedy/Red Arrow? I could've done without it but it's preferable to what "OTA/ODF" is offering us currently.
    Last edited by DoubleDevil; 10-23-2015 at 05:37 PM.

  8. #53
    Site Groupie SteelyGal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carmine-Infantino View Post
    Missed by who, well me for one. For me the show started it's down hill slide when they started adding all the side kicks. Season 3 had way to many leather clad people hanging out in then quiver cave. B.C. and Speedy should be used as guest stars, only when the store requires them. You seem upset that the writers, producers and the people who own the characters have taken the measure of Laurel and found her lacking. I understand you are team laurel, but that's kind of like being a Cubs fan, a difficult thing to be. As for your chicken or egg argument, who cares??? Oliver, Diggle, Felicity and the writers consider themselves the original team, you should just let this one go. I hated this episode, and not because of felicity or laurel, but because of how they brought Sara back and the way nyssa destroyed the pit. Before you accuse me of being an Olicity fan I am not, I think she works out better on the Flash, maybe they could send her to the Flash and Laurel to legends. Oliver going back to his play boy ways with only Diggle to help him out would be a show I'd watch.
    For me, I would have liked it to Green Arrow and Black Canary as the main characters and everyone else used as guest stars. But after watching the first episode, I found myself routing for team Diggle.
    Last edited by SteelyGal; 10-23-2015 at 06:10 PM.

  9. #54
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDevil View Post
    I guess now you understand how non-olicity shippers feel about season 3. Alone her leaving with Oliver at the end of season 3 leaving Diggle with the entire burden of building and running a vigilante team with two relatively new recruits while worrying about a wife (who Oliver kidnapped) and child at home was more than enough reason for me to show resentment to both Oliver and Felicity upon their return, I didn't need more to explain things. Whether Diggle knew about Felicity's assistance or not is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned, O+F left D hanging and that more than justifies a couple of episodes of resentful glances in my book.
    I don't disagree but only if it's officially what was supposed to be happening versus the writers failing to even remember to have Felicity and Diggle speak to each other. This episode proved to me that it was an accident of writing rather than something intended. I think the actors adding things in (like the missed high five) to provide a visual tale to explain the lack of dialogue but it was still glaring.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Kent View Post
    ^ I had to put myself in "Arrow time-out" this week and it's so much more restful just reading about what Felicity did than actually watching the carnage....
    OK. I laughed. LOL

  11. #56
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Extremelly missed by who? I was on several discussion forums during that period, and I didn't see that many people complaining about the lack of OTA dynamic. In fact, my impression was that most non-shippers were focusing on the Mirakuru plot, and enjoying what was going on. So, I think it is prudent not to generalize and imagine that the audience at large thinks that Felicity (because I think it's really the centrality of Felicity that is at stake here!) and her relationship with Oliver and Diggle is the absolute centerpiece if the show. Furthermore, as far as I can recall, Oliver was in a serious romantic relationship with SARA during these episodes, so maybe many fans focused on that relationship and found it important, rather than his relationship with Felicity.
    Extremely missed by the people that started bringing up the OTA. That's when the phrase started to gain traction.

    And I guess I'm confused, I thought you were in favor of more balanced writing when there is a love interest around? That the other players shouldn't be forgotten? My mistake.

    As for Oliver's throw away line that "it started out with the three of us", the supreme irony is that it did NOT AT ALL start out with the three of them,
    It al depends on what IT you are referring to. It seemed clear to me that Oliver is talking about his mission that he only expanded past the names on a list AFTER Felicity joined with Diggle in encouraging him to do more to help than just go after the fat cats. Otherwise he would have said it started with me and I need to get back to that.

    During this time Oliver/the Hood was also collaborating with LAUREL, who helped him solve several cases, although he didn't reveal his identity to her. Of course, Olicity fans often neglect the Laurel/Oliver collaboration in their endeavors to erase her importance and elevate their own girl. However, for those of us who still consider Laurel to be an important person in Oliver's life (despite all the retconning and marginalization that this relationship has been subjected to in order to implement and serve Olicity), this shows that LAUREL was Oliver's unknowing partner when Miss Felicity Smoak was only someone that Ollie went to for information.
    Sure, Laurel worked with the Hood but she also wobbled back and forth on if she liked him or thought he was nothing but a killer who she should have nothing to do with. He was a means to an end for her, not a partner. A similar assertion was made about Tommy. From MG's Tumblr


    It seems this show conveniently forgets Tommy Merlyn being a member of the Original Team Arrow before Felicity was...

    He didnít learn that Oliver was the Arrow until Episode 16 and died seven episodes later. When in that interval did he become a member of Oliverís team?
    Tommy looked out for the team and hid their lair but him knowing and him helping still aren't enough for him to be considered a team member. Laurel didn't know and helped sometimes, more often, she asked for his help. Per the show runner that's not enough to consider her on the team, but you of course are free to have your own opinions.

    Felicity didn't join the team until episode 1X15, that is, long after Diggle became Oliver's partner. So, Diggle and Oliver were a team for TWELVE episodes before Felicity learned about Oliver's secret and became a member of the team. Now, I know that the Felicity/Olicity fans come up with all kinds of elaborate explanations/interpretations in order to prove that Felicity should still be considered as some kind of "originary" member, but if you look at the show's own history these claims are simply inaccurate.
    Doesn't seem so elaborate to point out that Oliver only gained a team when he had more than one person working with him. And it wasn't until Felicity joined them that Oliver finally moved past just crossing names off his list. Plus there's the part that only Felicity ever called them Team Arrow so can't be a Team Arrow before the person that coin's the name is on the team.

    So, if Laurel had listened to Oliver and let the members of the "Original Trio" go off on their own, he would not have been alive today. Of course, that is something that is never mentioned when oliciters triumphantly refer to this line as the writers' alleged validation of the fan-created OTA
    . Oliver has gotten out of tighter scraps but sure, thanks Laurel. And it's good that Oliver was then there to save her and that she then realized she was more of a distraction than a help and so left them to take care of everything else without her.

    Still, the cry for a return to OTA isn't about not letting others play too, it's about not forgetting to make use of them as well. Oliver makes a much better hero when he is working with his team. At this point with Thea and Laurel, is Oliver even allowed to think of them as "his" team? Or will they get mad and him for his presumption?

    You make it sound as if good reviews and good ratings are somehow dependent on the presence of Diggle, Felicity and Oliver as a team, or of Olicity as the show's main romance. There is no proof whatsoever that there is any correlation between the amount of OTA interaction/storylines/scenes (or the presence of Olicity romantic scenes) and good reviews/ratings. An episode will get good reviews if it is well-written and well-acted, and many Olicity-heavy episodes haven't gotten good reviews/ratings at all.
    You want to point out to me anywhere where I claimed Olicity automatically equals good ratings? Or where I ever mentioned Olicity in my post at all? That's a different argument. I will point to the deep decline in ratings in the back half of season two and yes, make a correlation about the change in the show dynamics. You are free to make whatever interpretation you choose. I won't get into the ratings of season three because there is a fundamental divide in opinion between you and I whether season three even was a Olicity heavy season or not. Add in the mid season boost that came in the rating from the Flash crossover, the occasional sports event stealing eyes, effects of hiatuses and seasonal viewing habits and ratings are very hard to pin down. I'm happy I don't have to.

    When you say that "the writers heard us", I presume you mean Felicity's references to OTA, and the scenes with Oliver/Diggle/Felicity?
    An odd thing to presume since I specifically said
    Oliver said it started with the three of them and it was time to get back to that. It was like a message straight from TPTB, that yes, they'd heard us!
    So no, I wasn't refereeing to the references in the current episode. I already wrote in my post the message I took from it in this episode, just a promise that old relationships won't be forgotten.

    I can't stop other people from taking it as an insult. That's up to them. Any use of OTA to mean go away Laurel is only a small fraction of what it means. Believe me, I don't need to say Go Away Laurel in some code if I want to say Go Away Laurel.

    OTA also refers to good episodic villains. I like a big season long arc but I also want solid individual contained episodes, like what we sort of got tonight, fighting a good bad guy but using the fight to further character growth.

    Besides, last week's episode didn't get very good ratings, despite all the OTA and Felicity badassery, so maybe the "Arrow" producers should reconsider their priorities a bit.
    And it went up against the Met's baseball game in it's largest market and will go up against the World Series next Wednesday. I'll leave the episode to episode ratings game to the experts but I still feel that the constant decline in the back half of the second season is reasonably attributed to a least a perceived quality decline by some.

    Well, since Oliver and Diggle were the REAL Original Team, maybe those of us who liked THAT constellation should start spamming the producers and writers demanding that Oliver and Diggle should get more scenes and screen time together, without Felicity's presence?
    You are perfectly free to do whatever you want.

    The Felicity-centric episode in season three didn't get very good reviews, and it is generally considered a weak episode by non-shipper fans.
    That was not my experience. The episode and the appearance of Charlotte Ross was considered a success and the only ones I've heard dislike that episode are not non shippers but anti Felicity since it wasn't a shippy episode in the least. The closest thing to being shippy was that suddenly after several episodes Oliver stopped scowling all the time.

    The proof of this is that there are MANY online fans who now look back at season one with nostalgia and regard it as the best season
    And many that don't. No proof in that. Typically I hear Season two, season one, season three.

    I guess I don't share your view of the foundational importance of a team that only existed during a limited period of the show. I don't feel that there is anything special about Diggle, Oliver and Felicity
    ,

    Clearly, and to counter that viewpoint, I'm sure the appreciation for continued appreciation shown to the OTA will continue to come.

    and I enjoy seeing more characters interacting and participating on the team. In fact, I think it would be detrimental to the team atmosphere if the writers singled out Oliver/Felicity/Diggle as more "special" and "essential" than Thea and Laurel. First of all it reeks of a kind of high school "clique" mentality, and secondly it is a disservice to characters who are just as important to Ollie/Green Arrow as Felicity and Diggle, both because of their long history on the show, and because of their comic book history.
    Comic book history is a crutch. If it's meaningful, show it on screen and then I'll believe it. And I am perfectly open to the newer members of the team earning their place but so far they've just been there. We haven't had big moments really cementing them as a team. They got a big moment of acceptance as fighters at the end of season three but so far this season they are just co workers slash his little sister. But with the new relationships, I also want the writing to remember what came before. Give them time and Team Arrow point 3.0 will have it's own special feel, but right now there is still too much discord. Oliver and Diggle getting closer again is a nice start.

    Furthermore, I happen to think that both Laurel and Thea are more interesting than Felicity as characters, and that both Willa and Katie are more versatile and dynamic as actors than the rather one-dimensional Emily Bett-Rickards. So, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about the importance and centrality of the so-called "Original Trio".
    I think Willa Holland is a great actress and I've liked her from the start. I'm sure KC is good in some things but clearly my viewpoint radically differs than yours but I don't feel the need to rip her down to prop up EBR who I greatly enjoy.

    You are free to like or dislike any character of your choosing.

    I really don't understand the insistence that Oliver, Diggle and Felicity weren't a great team or the denial that they were close or bonded with each other. It would be like me saying Oliver never loved or dated Laurel. It's one thing to be tired of people talking about it, but to deny it ever existed? I just find it confusing.
    Last edited by BkWurm1; 10-23-2015 at 08:37 PM.

  12. #57
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteelyGal View Post
    For me, I would have liked it to Green Arrow and Black Canary as the main characters and everyone else used as guest stars. But after watching the first episode, I found myself routing for team Diggle.
    I was perfectly willing to watch a Green Arrow and Black Canary show until I showed up and started watching. This whole show is barely Green Arrow and I'm perfectly comfortable in saying this BC is nothing like I ever thought of for Black Canary. Neither for that matter was Sara though I thought for the story they were telling for THIS GA, she fit better, and yes, like someone said over in the Laurel thread, a lot of it had to do with giving her a ready made backstory because I really am not comfortable with a BC that is supposed to be the same age as GA that is not his equal the whole time.

    Giving BC an origin story that puts her skill level always behind GA bothers me. I could have just barely handled it if she had the equal skill level but just not applied in the same way and I thought that was what I was going to get before the show started but this wasn't a multi lead show. It was Arrow's story (ok, Batman Begins light). Everyone else is a supporting player in his story.

    THat's not a bad thing except that BC shouldn't just be a supporting player in someone else's story so that disconnect always will be a problem for me. Her character would have a much better chance to breath and grow on a show where Oliver isn't the focus but that's probably not going to change. She will likely get to take a turn as a crossover guest eventually on LoT. Sometimes crossovers can provide surprising amounts of character insight.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    I was perfectly willing to watch a Green Arrow and Black Canary show until I showed up and started watching. This whole show is barely Green Arrow and I'm perfectly comfortable in saying this BC is nothing like I ever thought of for Black Canary. Neither for that matter was Sara though I thought for the story they were telling for THIS GA, she fit better, and yes, like someone said over in the Laurel thread, a lot of it had to do with giving her a ready made backstory because I really am not comfortable with a BC that is supposed to be the same age as GA that is not his equal the whole time.

    Giving BC an origin story that puts her skill level always behind GA bothers me. I could have just barely handled it if she had the equal skill level but just not applied in the same way and I thought that was what I was going to get before the show started but this wasn't a multi lead show. It was Arrow's story (ok, Batman Begins light). Everyone else is a supporting player in his story.
    That's not correct. In fiction the best stories are ones where the side characters are just as focused on as the main character, where they aren't just supporting players. Creating a show where you have a large cast, you have to service that cast, otherwise the main might as well be the only character. Character development is what matters for all characters. Yes, Laurel isn't exactly the same as her comic character in skills, but Oliver isn't comic character in spirit and soul. The character of black canary, even while in a show where Oliver is the main character, should never be bent as a character to appease Oliver as a character. And the show has shown that they at least are willing to allow her to be a character separate from Oliver.

    God bless you! God bless your family and everyone else in your life!

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    A cry went up that the OTA dynamic was extremely missed. Ratings did start to go down. Reviews became more critical. What I'd loved about the show was missing for a good chunk of time in the back half of season two. The turn around came finally just a few episodes before the end of the season. Oliver said it started with the three of them and it was time to get back to that. It was like a message straight from TPTB, that yes, they'd heard us!

    I personally think the show is much smoother when the team is united and the team is built on the foundation provided by Oliver, Diggle and Felicity.
    That's false. The team is built on a foundation of Oliver and Diggle. It didn't start with the three of them and they aren't special and don't deserve to be treated like they are. What is liked by fandom groups is unimportant and against the craft of writing. It's pandering, which poisons a show and is insulting to everyone who watches.

    God bless you! God bless your family and everyone else in your life!

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagenspear View Post
    That's false. The team is built on a foundation of Oliver and Diggle. It didn't start with the three of them and they aren't special and don't deserve to be treated like they are. What is liked by fandom groups is unimportant and against the craft of writing. It's pandering, which poisons a show and is insulting to everyone who watches.

    God bless you! God bless your family and everyone else in your life!
    I gave my opinion therefore you are false in saying it is false. It really IS my opinion.

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